>> from our studios in new york rose. this is charlie > let me talk about this issue of qualification to be president. >> what i said was in response has been saying. "washington post" headline, "clinton questions whether to be is qualified president." i thought it was appropriate to respond. charlie: is it tit for tat? s that what this campaign

should be about? bernie:. no. issue ied to run an oriented campaign. they want to hear about what ideas we have to improve their attacking each other every day but what i do have to say. f we're getting attacked believe do you do clinton is unconfidence? why can't you just say yes. resume in irst rate terms of a life in public service. >> look -- most e: she's one of the qualified people to run. >> she has years of experience, extremely intelligent. i have some experience, too. in ve a pretty good record congress. as a senator. as a mayor. i think i'm qualified to be president. to answer your question, you're right. we should not get into this tit for tat. be debating the issues

facing the american public. saying is people will attack us, if we distort our going the respond. charlie: people are saying the tenor of this campaign has more d and it's sounding and more like the republican campaign. let's not go that far. charlie: take a listen. this is what you said. clinton should apologize for iraq war debts. do you really believe -- after i was asked to apologize for the tragedy in hook. charlie: but again, tit for tat. >> it is tit for tat but i'm you know, to attacks that are being made against me. charlie: i'm asking where the campaign is going and is that going too far to say for bears responsibility iraqi war debts? >> do i bear responsibility for the tragedy and the horrors of hook? let's get off of that. of course she doesn't bear responsibility. in iraq. for the war

that was a very bad vote, in my view. die hold her accountable? no. but again i would hope we can get off this then nor. american facing the people -- by the way, media has to bear some responsibility as well. may say it's terrible. they really like that kind of stuff, right? on your lips, charlie. look, we have to ask why is the declining?ss why is it we have more income, inequality than any country on earth. see, why we're the only nation earth, major nation, doesn't guarantee healthcare to all people? hy our infrastructure is collapsing. why kids are leaving school 30 to $50,000 in debt? those are the issues. charlie: she says in the beginning, she did not say you were not qualified. and you sayshe says i looked at the headline in the "washington post." i mean, should you look at it carefully before you say -- >> that's what they say. on the other hand, read and hear

what her surrogates are saying every single day. o to answer your question, i respect secretary clinton. i have known her for 25 years. hope that we can have a serious discussion about the serious issues. if she's the nominee you will support her? >> i'm sure that she will support me. that we'll go forward in understanding, that it would be a disaster for this country, an unmitigated disaster to have somebody like a donald as president ruz of the united states and i'll do everything in my power to make sure that doesn't happen. charlie: some people may say i can see republican attack ads sanders?ator >> the reason why i'm smiling is it's the same old story. you're talking about the process. e don't talk about issues facing the american people. what i want to do is debate. up forandidate has stood working families? hich candidate has focused on income and wealth inequality? the need to create millions of rebuildingng jobs by

our infrastructure. i think my record will come out good. charlie: as you know a lot of people are talking about your interview with the daily news new york and talking about breaking up banks and necessary ut what's to do, if a financial firm is fail.ig to >> right. charlie: they say you don't have a plan for that. ideas but no plan. to lay it out. website, charlie. and you will find legislation that i've introduced which is how we pecific about break up the banks. legislation that the secretary of the treasury will determine which banks are endangering the fiscal health of america, which "too big to that thefail" and bring down a significant part of the economy. harlie: how would you break them up? >> how would you break them up? >>. charlie: yes. > would you determine which

banks are too big to fail. charlie: how would you determine that? very hard.ot that's what economists and fiscal analysts do. deal of has a great size, and the bank is unstable that bank , and if were to go under and bring down a significant part of the bank should not exist. if it's too big to fail it's too big to exist. charlie: what do you have to do to win in new york? this is a pivotal campaign. >> one of the things i have to do is to have the media allow us real issues the facing the american people. think our -- look, we've won six out of the last seven states and with one exception every one f our victories has been by landslide proportions. here's the truth as i see it. the american people are tired of establishment politics and establishment economics. class is declining. almost all income and health goes to the top 1%. ot an issue the media likes to

talk about but it's an issue the american people understands to be true. somebody who has a political record of standing up to wall street, not taking money wall street, standing up to the pharmaceutical industry, the complex, thestrial fossil fuel industry. i believe the american people want a president who is prepared take on the big money interest and fight on their behalf. what is it you believe about g.e.? >> what i believe about g.e. is one of the larger corporations in america. downsized significantly. and they have moved to low wage countries all over. charlie: so therefore they are mmorally during during >> i didn't say immoral. i said one of the reasons why the middle class in this country is in decline is that we've lost millions of decent paying manufacturing jobs. > >> i didn'say o of the respecte

lost millions of decent paying anufacturing jobs is a disastrous trade policy that's allowed companies like general lectric to shut down in the united states of america and get cheap labor abroad. i want to change those policies. c.e.o. of you know, g.e. responded to you and says that a plant in vermont, you have never visited. never visited. constituents of yours in the plant. >> that's not true. the plant is in rutland, course, i nd of visited. charlie: why would he say that? maybe he doesn't know about everything that i do. deny the fact that his corporation has shut down plants all over the united and moved merica abroad. that is a fact. deny that in a given year -- excuse me, charlie, in a given year, his federalion pays zero in income taxes. charlie: he says, in fact, they have paid federal, state and taxes.income >> of course they have over the years but what i'm saying is, in in a given year,

they have paid zero, despite making large profits. want to win the hearts and minds of new yorkers, you have to convince them about bernie sanders? > well, you know, having grown up in brooklyn, new york, in a controlled ent apartment, coming from a family that never had very much money, parents ever went to college, i have to convince, people of new york city, that i understand what's going on in the lives of people, and the struggles that they are going through every single day economically. i think i have to convince them that i'm prepared to stand up and take on the powerful special interests today american stroying the middle class. charlie: do you have to convince them you have a plan and america plan and these are workable plans because that's the question that ecretary clinton is raising

about your suggestions. >> of course she's raising those issues. you know, her job is, to try to win the election and defeat me. let's talk about the plans. do we have time? charlie: absolutely. stay here as long as you want. >> all right. plan one, our infrastructure is collapsing. and bridges. charlie: most people agree with that. >> okay. therefore, i think we need a i've suggestedt, a trillion dollars of five years, to rebuild our roads and systems.and water charlie: how would you pay for that? an y doing away with egregious loophole right now that allows large multinational orporations to stash their money in the cayman islands, tax da, and in other havens. charlie: what taxes will be raised? >> we're going to do away with would bring in about $100 billion a year. over a 10-year period would of money he amount

that i need to put 13 million rebuilding our crumbling infrastructure. number two, what i've said is 2016, when we r talk about public education, t's not good enough anymore, given changes in technology and in the world economy to simply be talking about first grade grade.h 12th in fact, we need to make public colleges and universities substantially d lower student debt. that's about a $70 billion a year proposition. a lot of money. how do we pay for it? through a tax on wall street speculation. in even more ng money. thirdly, at a time when millions areeniors and disabled vets trying to get by on $11,000 and year social security and my colleagues want to cut it i think we should expand social ecurity and we do that by lifting the cap on taxable income. if you make $5 million a year, $118,000 per year right now both are saying the same amount into the social security trust fund. propose.

we extend social security for 58 years an significantly raise benefits. charlie: when you look at social security do you think we have to raise the age? not., of course i think. charlie: working longer? it's a matter of fact, interesting that you raise that but i'm sure you notice, upper income people, most people are working class people in many cases are not, in act, seeing a decline in their life expectancy. so i think, bottom line is, when millions of people on social security, who can't make $12,000 a year we increase benefits and at a ime of massive income and inequality we ask the upper income people to contribute more. charlie: do i hear you saying i'm embarrassed by these personal attacks that are taking lace an all i've done is respond to attacks but i'm embarrassed and they are giving campaign i don't like, i don't like the fact that i have to participate it in and wish it would stop boent

sides, are you willing to say that? >> yep. am. look, charlie, you're looking at a guy who has been in politics ran many ening time, elections in the state of vermont. i have never run a negative ad my life in. this campaign, as i'm sure you can appreciate every other day, me and re coming up to saying aren't you going to attack hillary clinton on her mails, aren't you going to attack the clinton foundation. do you know how many times i've done that? let me finish. saw me in the debate when i asked about emails what di say? enough of these damn emails. what i said then and that's what i say now. charlie: that's not what you're saying now. has enor of this campaign changed, when you're questioning the qualification of a person to president. whether they are questioning qualification or you're requesting theirs. >> you're right. but what i want to say is when i ee the headlines clinton questions whether sanders is qualified to be president, you know what? we're going to respond. don't --

charlie: don't you owe it to yourself and those people who to know more ou, than simply look at a headline. and ooked at a headline then responded questioning her qualifications? >> here's something else. wisconsin, i n think the clinton campaign, that was our sixth victory in seven states, i think what they have said publicly is the tenor is change.o they are going to go much more negative on us and they have. that's the fact. mean, that's when cnn says, from the clinton campaign, their strategy, disqualify him, defeat him, and party later. what does that mean? that means we're going to go negative. i hope it doesn't happen. if your question is to me i would prefer it -- charlie: not that you prefer it a pledge that you're not going negative that you won't engage in this, that's to the politics you want play. take a look at this from you on in september on"

2015. >> i happen to have known hillary clinton for the last 25 years. respect her. i admire her. i'm not going to get into the her.ness of attacking >> right. charlie: but you have and that's my point. if i hired youk, tomorrow, paid you more than cbs is paying you, and said, charlie i need you to be my campaign manager, if you got attacked every day and surrogates got on television every day talking not qualified, distorting my record in significant ways, you're my campaign manager what do you say? anything about it? you know -- charlie: no, i would say to you, careful about what i said, so that there was no possibility that i'm accusing saying something that they hadn't said, based on a based e in a newspaper, on a -- >> i don't think that's fair. if you listen to what the saying, there is, you know, sometimes the way olitics works is -- the surrogates are busy doing the dirty work. harlie: so you're saying her

surrogates are doing the dirty work? >> there have been terrible attacks. goes.d on it look, i would hope, the point which i re making, agree with -- charlie: what do you think of ruz's momentum in the campaign against trump. you obviously know how to play politics because you're in a that no one, including you, thought you might be at moment. started at when we 3% that i would be surprised that the last poll had us a ahead? look, i think there is growing embarrassment, if you like, over the candidacy of donald trump. just the american people in general, who look at temperament see a that really is such that that ype of person should not be president, but i think a lot of republicans are feeling the same way. charlie: what is it that disqualifies him to be president, donald trump, first? when n you talk about --

you insult -- not talk about, hen you actively insult mexicans and latinos, muslims, ou know, islam is one of the largest religions in the world, seems,ou insult women, it every other day, when you insult veterans, john mccain was not a hero when, okay, he was. charlie: all of that disqualifies him? charlie, did i say the word disqualify? charlie: i was raising the question. >> i think what the american saying, you can't have a president that's busy insulting every group of people. guy also, and sometimes we forget it, as you he was involved in this bench that movement before he was a candidate. hat was an attack on the legitimacy of the presidency of our first african-american barack obama. this wasn't, i disagree with obama. his was, he shouldn't be president. that you vicious and ugly attack the g to undermine

president of the united states. n attack not only on obama but the african-american community. when people see that, they say, hey this guy should not be president. charlie: do you think the fact that president obama has taken he's pac money and supported trade deals means, president? him as >> it means i have a disagreement with him. look, i have known barack obama for a long time. he's a friend of mine. he came to vermont to campaign for me when i won the senate seat. my best to see that he won and was re-elected. very supportive of most of his initiatives. e have differences of opinion on, among other things, trade. i do not support the transpacific partnership. charlie: neither does secretary clinton. >> you're right. us came about after telling that it was a very good agreement, yes, after a lot of pressure from every union in she did say that she no longer supports it. charlie: i want to come back to iraqi thing one second, one

more question. you have made a point that she the iraqi war. or the people did as well. people. the >> yeah. charlie: do you hold all of them responsible for the deaths of americans? then why say it, senator? that's the question. because i was it attacked -- charlie: that's not -- that's not a reason. saying it ou, i'm because they attacked me. you ask senator clinton? look, we have these gun tragedies, sandy hook is about the worst thing that i can possibly think of. can you imagine mothers, dads, sending their kids to school and seeing that horrific tragedy. yet, and, by the way, i have assault weapons, very weapon, that i understand was used in that terrible slaughter of children.

ban it and now, you know, i'm being asked to apologize. charlie: we'll take a look. this is from the "new york daily news." bernie sandser hook shame. he same newspaper that had -- protecting and defending new yorkers when president ford drop ially said new york, dead. the same newspaper -- does this bother? you it bothers me. >> sandy hook is such -- it's almost unspeakable to tell you the truth. some sick, sick person could walk interest a school and do that. -- ve done, let me just you're looking at a man who ran for the united states congress 1988. one seat in vermont. i was opposed by all of the gun people. you know why, charlie? because i said that maybe we distribute ell or assault weapons designed to kill people in the united states. three that election by points. maybe because i was sloughed off gun people. i have a d minus voting record nra.

yes, of course i don't like that. charlie: on the iraq question, believe, even though you say you said it, because you had you believe , do that? >> do i believe -- charlie: that secretary clinton is responsible for the deaths in iraq because she voted -- >> look, this is what i believe. charlie: it's the question of what you believe. > what i believe is that getting into the war in iraq and believing what bush and cheney was the worst foreign policy blunder -- let me of this- in the history country. it led to massive destabilization of the region thousands of of people. it was a terrible blunder. of think that any member the senate or the house votes for, is responsible for every of course not., charlie: then don't say it. >> well, you know, charlie, this here.ne way lecture but there are two candidates running. have been attacked over and

over again. i have been called, you know, unqualified to be president, and that.t like so if -- you're making the point many, many times. this ou want the tenor of campaign to be higher and i agree with you. charlie: do you make point that of ithstanding the tenor this campaign, we're engaged in an energetic debate about what would eve in and what we do as president, and that come 2016, if hillary clinton is the nominee you will be supporting her? -- i would love to hear hillary clinton make the be point that she'll supporting me. charlie: i'll answer her. will you answer the question with respect to her. >> sure i will. have said a million times, i think the idea of a donald trump or a ted cruz presidency would disaster for this country. i'll do everything in my power and work as hard as i can to sure that does not happen and if secretary clinton is the nominee i'll support her. enthusiasm foris

your candidacy. my final question is, is it to use they are opposed secretary clinton or is it because somehow between you and this primary season, there has been a connection about the future of america? which is it? think it's the latter. charlie: do you think it's part of the former? >> i can't answer that. we just had ahat, rally in philadelphia last night. 14,000 people. and a lot of working class people, lot of young and who really understand, as we can t nation we are, do much, much better than we and they want , to be part of the process. we have the agenda we've utlined is something they are responding to strongly. charlie: thank you for coming. pleasure.ou, always a >> thank you, sir.

here.am is he's a leading voice on national security. selectso a member of the gazi.tee on ben face i'm pleased to have congressman adam at this table first time. he's been on the show but not at the table. so welcome. very much. >> great to be with you. in terms of isis, paris,

brussels, what did they say to you about isis strategy and what you know that we should know? >> what it said to me was that long worriede have about, that is foreign fighters, that that left europe, went to syria, iraq, and came is now at that problem very manifest. you have this enormous number of people from france, belgium, more from belgium than anywhere they have come back and have been trained in warfare. further radicalized. getting help from fellow europeans that never went o join the fight but are serving as logistical hub, and nfortunately, there is no end in sight. they are there is still very communication between european countries. in terms of intelligence. in many respects these countries

are much like the united states pre 9-11. . primarily are people who have passports from western countries or from the united states? >> yes. luckily, we haven't had that many from the united states. we've had some. the challenge in terms of the foreign fighters is far greater for europe. challenge for us -- exactly. tremendously from those oceans. the more immediate threat for radicals, me grown those inspired by the isis propaganda. pernicious.dibly we've not done much in combating that. i think probably because the government sends a very poor message. at social media and now we're using a more one of empowering throws in the muslim world. would you assess the french effort to stop this kind of attack? with a far greater

problem than we have an far less devoted to the task. they are ramping up their personnel. professionals can't be trained overnight. playing against the clock. in unfortunately, it shows the tragic attacks that we've seen. charlie: they are also going a reassessment themselves saying what do we do right and wrong? turkey havings of one of those killed in the attack. and that kind of thing so they are having to go through an reassessment. >> the fundamental question that europeans have to answer is, are hey going to allow information to travel faster than people? because if they are going to continue to have this free europe, then they are going to have to make sure heir intelligence travels even faster. right now it doesn't. and that pose as very -- traveling faster than

information? >> yes. absolutely. charlie: the encryption battle, apple versus the f.b.i. and then the f.b.i. somehow, an how, foundit to learn somebody that could open that san bernardino terrorist phone. what does that do to the encryption debate? >> not very much. takes it off the front burner in terms of the case involving san bernardino shooters, but the issue hasn't gone away. mored, it's become all the acute in light of apple's announcement that they are everything. this is really a spectacular change. prosecutor for six years, and i can't imagine as a ormer prosecutor, a world in which essentially a wiretap is useless. people migrate from land lines to cell phones. charlie: perhaps an agreement with the f.b.i.'s argument, been a you hadn't

prosecutor? >> it gives me an appreciation it. that change, in which search warrants will have far less you won't be e able to open the thing with the most information, the phone, the fact that the telecommunications be accessible to wiretaps, those things are enormous hanges but the other really enormous change, and this is why this issue is so challenging is or people in iran, and people in russia and people in china and people in grease and turkey, worried about their own government listening in, legitimate conversations, this equally enormous and consequential. it's a very legitimate argument. charlie: they make the the argument for china specifically because they have so many items sold in china. real crux for apple may come if china poses the same f.b.i. has.t the if china says, we need you to nlock these devices, if you want to do business here. charlie: what would happen if they make that demand? >> i don't know. suspect, and i think

congress is nowhere near a but i do suspect the best path, if we can find our to it, is to have government, privacy stake holders, technology, sit at a this and figure out what's within the realm of doable. i have asked the national county of sciences to do an encryption report. we asked them back in the fall. that i think will help guide us. charlie: is there a question of ither we go through the courts or we go to the congress and is there a developing consensus hat it ought to be the congress? >> i think there is growing consensus it ought to be the congress. hat doesn't mean that the bureau won't in particular cases o to the court if they need to on e congress works its way it. i think apple is right. the weighing of privacy and be resolved in litigation. at the same time, apple also nderstands we're such a

dysfunctional body, that if you leave to it congress we aren't likely to do anything and the is in the technology sector's favor. but ultimately we do have to these questions. they are enormously far reaching. i don't think we're equipped to do it at the present. we need a lot more information. one of the things i would like know, and from independent experts, this whole technological question of you can safely have a door, if technology companies code, if their source they can guard their electronic signature, why can't they retain update a when they phone, for example, with a court access.to give i don't know the technological answer. i wouldn't want to rely sector.ly on the tech charlie: according to their argument, if you force us to do it all of a sudden it will be up phones all over the world. >> that is the argument. do you believe there is a different way to find -- >> i don't know. i don't know. i assume you've had

conversations with these apple officials and others in the community. yes. absolutely. look, we want them to be successful. successful. to be there is every reason not only view he economic point of but from a national security point of view to want our own industries to be successful because even if we're locked out encrypted information, the fact that companies are here, made here, it's advantageous just across the spectrum. of the is part challenge, it's a global technology. ven if we were to insist on doors here that doesn't mean that others overseas will insist on doors there. it necessarily desirable that they should. charlie: ben gazi committee, stand?oes it >> that's a good question. i wish as a member of the you the i could give answer. the reality is we don't know in the minority. sure the majority knows either and this has been the problem all along. in search of a

purpose. we've uncovered nothing that alters the conclusions from better. charlie: say that sloemplt of the ot altered any conclusions of the any of the previous commissions or investses? > we haven't found new facts that alter the conclusions we had reached before we began this committee. operative there an idea on the part of the secretary clinton lied? >> well, look, i think operative of this he g.o.p. side committee is clinton must be stopped from getting to the white house. that's their political motivation. that's -- benghazi, does have t any residence with the wider political community in america? g.o.p. i think the considers the benghazi issue a valuable one politically because it plays into a narrative that like to tell about the secretary. charlie: which is, she's not trustworthy? they don't trust her that she

operates by a different set of rules. this is the narrative they want sell to the american people. charlie: what is your theory of terms of what she did at the time? >> well, look, she's cknowledged, it was a mistake for her to use her own server. she should have used the state department email system, as insecure as that ultimately proved to be. charlie: is that the benghazi commission? >> mostly no. charlie: maybe some things happened that are relevant? well, only to the extent -- the mission of the majority of benghazi committee -- harlie: the other idea which has some conversations in the community is whether secretary indicted, ght be because of the server. you know the congress, the f.b.i. > i don't think there is any

credibility to that. if you look at the facts, secretary, largely receiving most of which were classified after the fact, not even classified at the time she received them. and those that may have been classified at the time were not marked as such. they weren't shared with outside third parties. with seer criteria you in a criminal case. charlie: to lead to an of the secretary, in terms of just simply having a personal server in her house. >> nothing that i can see. the iran ou supported nuclear deal. with some caveats, it's fair to say. >> yes. charlie: what were your reservations about it? >> my chief reservation was that at the end of the period of the deal, in about eight or 10 some of it goes on a ger, that iran would have very fast and efficient industrial nuclear capability,

purposes, but nonetheless, what i had hoped token nuclear program at all, to save face, instead, substantial program. there are two breakout times. how long does it take to create material and how long does it take to create the mechanism of the bomb. breakout times in terms of the fusion material will be close to zero. they will be able to produce the material they need very quickly. that was a bitter pill to swallow. and, frankly, only the fact that would go from a breakout period when we started negotiation of a matter of than a year for a decade, with this very rigorous inspections and the ability to snap back sanctions, bitter pill that we had to swallow. charlie: thank you for coming. you to be sure for

here. hope we can do it again. looking forward to it. charlie: we'll be right back. stay with us.

charlie: for 35 years he's brought the documentary tradition to the forefront. civil war series was the highester rated series on public television. e's created authoritative accounts on the history of baseball, jazz, and much, much

more. revisit's america's pastime with a new documentary on the life and legacy of jackie robinson. he was unwilling to accept discrimination before he came to major league baseball. a little kid. he got it from his mother. he was a wonderful woman and entered into this remarkable partnership. the film that we've made is, in story. s, a love a multigenerational for from the of a african-american family as well as a portrait of civil in the back half of the 20th century. when he came up and walked out on he diamond, charlie, april 15, 1947, martin luther in college.ll harry truman hasn't integrated the military. a decade away from refusing to give up her seat though jackie had done it 1944 in the army and got it court-martialed. what a you realize wonderful great sort of judge of thiscter he was, realized, is the guy with the fiery temper

who will be able to headlined this emper to make experiment work. jackie pass that is with flying colours. the most as not only important person in baseball, he most important americans whoever lived. >> i think so i would up him in the top 20, when you think about lincolns and the washingtons and did jeffersons and the martin luther kings. f you think about what he represented, you think about the burden that he carried, fact that, you know, we're in the business and we talk a lot. and he walked the walk. he got up every day, since that brooklyn heights, when he met, and i think he got up every day and tried to make the lives of other people better. charlie: what was that moment like? moment.as a great we always posited, that he would pick jackie robinson. pick up a lotg to of people. we always think, that he had the idea. did ita great man and he not only for great reasons but

humanitarian reasons. the african-american press had pressing. the radical press, including the organizer of the communist party in america, was pushing. a liberal republican mayor of new york was pushing. stuff, and he was beginning to fear that this moment was going to lose him. ackie sort of fell into his lap. he dispatched the scout, who we interviewed. out now, he checked jackie and brought him to this meeting. more than -- just screamed at him about what he was going to face, tall things people were going to yell at him that did come true. jackie, can you not, you know, back? and he said, he thought he could do it. >> he said, do you have a woman? he said, yes. >> good, you need to marry her. without rachel i don't think jackie survives. i don't think he gets through it. much.nk it's too but they formed this partnership and this bond, and she carries message, the dna from

to this day. i very powerful and moving. charlie: do you think he doesn't get the credit? is, that hat happens in our superdopplou our life, we like to simplify. we cut corners with jackie. in that 1994 series the idea that he had put his arm around him and it just takes a bit of investigation, it's not in jackie's auto biography. there is no mention of it in the press, no mention of it in the black press, which would stories.20 related when you're playing first base and pee wee is at shortstop you and go across the diamond put your arm around. it's not baseball rhetoric. when he played second base, he might have did it. think time it's maybe that it's no pun intended that white people wanted to have more skin in this game. we were good, as the historian says in our film,

that we wanted to do well. what jackie went through is beyond the pale. field.ats on the opposing teams, trouble with his own teammates. his head.itching at charlie: when did he change from taking it because he said you'll take to it make this transition? >> he said three years. year in the minors, he's t triple-a, a club in the montreal, which was good. they were a little bit different about race. did it hat there and he for two years. 1947-1948. he was told he was released and so he talkedto go, back to umpires, he got on other in ers' cases, he spoke out the media, why aren't the yankees integrating, they said, player 't found a black good enough. he wouldn't accept that. when he retired he used baseball as a bridge to the civil rights movement. he was going out and visiting georgia and alabama on behalf of dr. king. concerts in g jazz his back yard and sending the

efforts of for the the civil rights movement. he's hugely important. and he's a republican. supporting -- s eah, who is officially -- charlie: rockefeller. >> he's going to be sent to a chain gang. later, it's so interesting even today, jackie robinson, if you from the eastetyranny of meth mythology, all the stuff that's happening in the last few years to the also, if you go 1964 convention with him you realize that's the moment when founded in an party -- the 54, in wisconsin sole purpose of abolishing decides to make the switch. charlie: the convention that nominated barry goldwater. that year, there is a civil rights bill that's passed,

with a lot of republican support. republican t of support. in order to get it through. but at that point, the epublican party, and particularly the goldwater campaign is going to employ what we call the southern strategy switching from african-americans voting for the party to voting democratic. that began with the new deal. charlie: there is so much to here.about let me just show one clip. it shows you the reverence he's people. by so many this is the president and the first lady. roll take. any time you're involved in an endeavor that involves finding stress, yourself questioned in terms of whether you should be where you to be able to go back and ave refuge, with someone who you know loves you, and you know back, that's priceless. > just being able to find that solace and peace to withstand

all the negative energy, you it's hard to do that alone. so there is nothing more family, than a real partnership, which is probably what made him such a because he had the judgment to find a partner that, i think -- it's true. i mean, that's a sign of his character, that he chose a woman equal.s his i don't think he he would have had jackie robinson without rachel. charlie: very interesting moment with the president. >> this is a couple, the most powerful couple on earth rguably who are utterly transparent and just like every other couple, husband is trying o agree, yes, dear and it's so moving and funny at the same time. he's nodding, yes, yes. i love it. think he was probably nodding because i'm somewhat the same way. woman. strong she's right. >> this is an african-american door for there you the the first time and this is another african-american man

going through a different door, obviously, a more important one, the presidency, but all of them of m the forbearances jackie robinson. so when he says you're questioning to go home and have somebody who loves you and has back, this is exactly what jackie felt with rachel. poignant things, is he began to speak of what he did on the field. we did. say what and if, even the spectacular play, hall of fame career that hard, was theirs. and that they could -- they could together weather the storm rachel says in the film. charlie: okay. how good was he as a player? pioneer? >> howard bryant says he's arguably you could say the best american athlete ever. he was -- harlie: best american athlete ever? >> i don't know. i don't think he's the best baseball player. i think he's the most important baseball player. baseball o other player whose number is retired in all 30 stadiums in which no

one, rivera being the last, who consciously chose 42 because he anted it, that's allowed to wear the number 42, except on april 15, when everybody wears to the the batboy manager to the star pitcher --its has to do with his pinener and -- >> that was -- major league baseball is wonderful, that was the experiment happened. the first real great progress, progress, a cultural progress, after the civil war in baseball. baseball sometimes has followed but i think in retiring his nybody and making it so symbolically important, it speaks volumes about how jackie was. e said that the life is measured by the difference it makes in other people's lives and he actually lived that creed doe and that's an amazing, amazing testament. that, with sarah -- what sarah and i and dave have been to do is remove a little

bit of the fog and say, here's the real man. complicated, mistakes, undertow, but much more interesting and inspiring. charlie: why did you choose jimmie foxx? >> we had not intended to have voices, because we had so many witnesses to it. were enough things that jackie said in his writings and in his columns and in his that etters to rachel, were going to fall outside the purview of even rachel's memory dominates this film. and so i went to jamie and he i don't mean aid, to imitate his very distinctive voice. just want you to be the voice almost from the grave that sounds cliche, but reading the have or so quotes that we throughout both of these episodes, to sort of hear from him. sometimes when you want to hear from him, when he's turning the other cheek, an just g thing about how he wanted to turn to the philadelphia phillies dugout and go back and smash out the guy's teeth. he doesn't do it. but it's really good to hear

that that was what was running so it's not just the saintly jesus like jackie robinson who turns the other cheek. charlie: what was life like after baseball? >> it was complicated. family tragedies involved. great activity involved with the movement.hts a developing relationship with rachel. she wanted to have a job. a career. reluctant, t first and she had to educate him and set him straight about that. he's, like u know, dr. king, not an advocate of so when olutions, and malcolm x says we've been listening too long to the who would achers suggest that we should turn the other cheek he's talking about but also jackie robinson so there is a while, at end of the 1960s, where they are calling him an uncle tom, be, before to freedomer before freedom rides.

at this take a look remarkable woman what stood by im and was a voice as strong for him. here it is. >>e went to our first spring honeymoon. our it was terrible. planes bumped from two to getting there. we were bumped in new orleans, pensacola, ed in florida. and white passengers were put on in our place. i had never seen signs on rest rooms, on water facets and that thing. so i went into the lady's -- so i lady's bathroom, just could recover my own sense of andlf and i walked in there did what i had to do. the ladies walked out. a bus to spring training. from jacksonville. on our honeymoon. back of the bus. and when it got dark i started

cry. because i had felt my great husband, who had been a fighter dignified person, had been discrimination and by segregation. charlie: will we ever get past we ever get past race? >> you know, when you realize that all the stuff that was happening with jackie is still happening, the pessimist in us would say no. the american now, original sin, human sin. m live of one own's hatred of s into the another. the way we respond is different a ng us, and we still have lot of folks who still don't the cone tents of their character, as dr. king said but by the color of their skin. but i sort of firmly believe that i had an opportunity here

the president of the united states, and the first lady, who are african-american, the first bout african-american to play in baseball. so i have to be -- i think optimist.kes you an there was a thing in our roosevelt film where george flange lynn roosevelt had a sense of history was a rising road and i have to believe that you know, we can get better. we must get better. we have to do that. it is to ay you do confront it. you can't run from it, which is what we always do. charlie: thank you for coming. >> thank you. charlie: ken burns, part one and two, on the great jackie robinson coming up on pbs. thank you for joining us. see you next time.

. >> with all due respect to pope francis every time you think keep gotten out, they in.ing you back ♪ happy good friday, sports fans. i say good friday because, wow it's been. news day hypothetical situation, you're the president and the pope to the vatican to give you the speech. wwbsd. >> that's kind of