♪ >> from our studios in new york city, this is "charlie rose". charlie: we are joined by senator bernie sanders a welcome. let me talk about the issue of qualifications to be president. you said that hillary clinton does not qualify. bernie sanders: what i said was in response to it she was saying. the washington post headline mcclendon questions whether bernie sanders is qualified to be a candidate. i fell it was audible -- responsible to react. charlie: should it be

tit-for-tat? bernie sanders: no. i have tried to have an issue driven campaign. i think that people want to hear that. what i do want to say is that we are getting attacked every single day by the clinton campaign. i want them to know that we are going to respond. not in kind, but i do hope that -- charlie: do you believe that secretary clinton is unqualified to be president? bernie sanders: does she believe i am qualified? charlie: why can you not say? she has a life in public service and she is one of the most qualified people. : bernie sanders she is extremely intelligent. charlie: what should she say? bernie sanders: i have experience, too. i have experience as a mayor. i have been in the senate. to answer your question, we should not get into tit-for-tat

and we should be debating the issues facing the american people. all i am saying is if people are going to distort our record, which has been the case time and time again, we are going to respond. charlie: the tenor of this campaign has changed and it is sunny like a republican campaign. bernie sanders: let's not go that far. charlie: listen to this. you said that clinton should war deaths.r iraq bernie sanders: this was after i was asked to apologize for the tragedy in sandy hook. charlie: tit for tat. bernie sanders: it is. attacks have been made against me. charlie: i am asking where the tenor of this campaign is going. does she bear responsibility for the iraqi war deaths? bernie sanders: let's get off of that. of course she does not bear

responsible to, she voted for the war in iraq. it was a bad vote in my view. do i hold her accountable? no. the issues that are facing the market people, by the way, the media has to face some responsibility as well. they really kind of like that stuff. i think the smile on your lips says it, charlie. we have to ask, why is the middle class declining? why do we have any quality between the classes? why are we dealing nation on -- why are we the only nation on earth that does not guarantee health care for all people? school we paying for $40,000, $50,000? charlie: she did not say that you are not qualified. and we look at the headline in the washington post, should we look at a more carefully? they say it. bernie sanders: on the other

hand, you should hear what they are saying every day. to answer your question, i respect secretary clinton, and i would hope that we could have a serious discussion about the serious issues. charlie: and if she is the nominee, you will support her? bernie sanders: i am sure that she would support me. and i'm sure that we will go forward. if somebody like donald trump or ted cruz is president, it would be a disaster. charlie: what some people are worried about is that they can adsthe republican attack now. bernie sanders: same old story. we are not talk about the issues facing the market people. what i want to do in this debate is which candidate is working for working families. which candidate has talked about the need to create jobs by

rebuilding the infrastructure. i think that my record will come out pretty good. charlie: you say that a lot of people are talking about your interview in new york and talking about breaking up banks if ahat is necessary to do financial firm is too big to fail, and they say you do not have a plan. they say that you have ideas, but no plan to lay it out. bernie sanders: then go to my website, my senate website, and you will find legislation that i introduced which is specific about how we break the bank's. -- of banks. -- up banks. the secretary of the treasury will determine which banks are endangering the fiscal health of america, which banks might be too big to fail and bring down a significant part of them. charlie: how would you break them up? bernie sanders: determine which

ones are too big to fail. charlie: how would you determine that? bernie sanders: that is what fiscal analysts do. if a bank has a great deal of size and the bank is unstable financially, and if that bank were to go under and bring down a significant part of the economy, that bank should not exist. what the have to do to win in new york? it is a pivotal campaign. bernie sanders: to talk about the real issues. i think that our message is -- look, we have one -- won six of the last seven primaries. the mecca people are tired of the establishment politics and economics. the middle class is declining and the wealth is going to the top 1%. not an issue that the media

likes to talk about, but it is something that the middle class knows to be true and the american people want somebody who has a political record of standing up to wall street, not taking money from them. standing up to the industry, the military industrial complex, the fossil fuel industry, people want a president who is prepared to take on the big money interests. charlie: what is it you believe about ge? bernie sanders: they are one of the larger corporations in america. they have downsized significantly. and they have moved to other countries all over. charlie: so they are morally right? bernie sanders: i did not say morally, i said one of the reasons that the middle class in this country is in decline is that we've lost millions of decent paying jobs. and one of the reasons that we have lost millions of decent paying manufacturing jobs is a

disastrous trade policy that allows companies like general electric to shut down in the u.s. and get cheap labor abroad. i want to change those policies. charlie: the ceo of ge responded and said that he has a plant in vermont that you have never visited. never visited, that employees constituents of years -- yours. bernie sanders: that is not true. it is in vermont and of course i have visited. charlie: why would he say that? bernie sanders: it was a while back. maybe he did not remember. but he has not denied the fact that they have shut down plants in america and moved abroad. yearexcuse me, in a given his corporation paid zero in federal income taxes. charlie: he said that they have paid taxes. ,ernie sanders: over the years but i said, in a given year,

they have paid zero. charlie: if you want to win the hearts and minds of new yorkers, what is it you need to convince them about bernie sanders? bernie sanders: having grown up in brooklyn in a rent-controlled apartment, coming from a family that never had a very much money. my parents never went to college. i have to convince the people of new york city that i understand what is going on in the life of millions of people and the struggles they are going to every single day, economically. i think that i have to convince them that i am prepared to stand up for them and take on the powerful special interests of today that are destroying the american people. charlie: you need to convince them that you have a plan and america can afford the plan and that these are workable plans, because that is the question

that secretary quinton is raising -- clinton is raising. : bernie sanders that is -- bernie sanders: that is her job, to raise these questions. let's talk about the plan. charlie: we can stay here as long as you want. bernie sanders: our infrastructure is collapsing. roads, bridges -- charlie: most people agree. bernie sanders: we need a major investment, i suggested $1 trillion over five years to rebuild those. charlie: how would you pay for that? bernie sanders: to do away with a loophole right now that allows large corporations to stash money in the cayman islands, bermuda and other tax havens in order to avoid paying federal taxes. that is number one. charlie: what taxes will be raised? bernie sanders: that would bring in about $100 billion a year. the amount of money i need to

put 13 million people to work rebuilding the intersection. number two, ok. when we talk about public education, it is not good changesnymore with the in technology, to simply be talking about first grade through 12th grade, we need to make public colleges tuition free and we need to lower student debt. that is about a $70 billion a year proposition. we pay for it with tax on wall street. withly, what i did -- seniors and veterans trying to get by with full thousand dollars a year with social to cuty and many want it, we need to expand social security and we do if i within the cap on taxable income. if you make $5 million a year, right now, and some remakes

$100,000 a year, right now you are paying the same taxes. we need to expand social security injuries taxes. -- social kerry and security and raise those taxes. this,sting that you raise upper income people for most are living longer, those who do not see a decline in life expectancy. we have millions of people on social security who cannot make it on 11 -- 11,000-12,000 dollars a year. we need to increase benefits. we go after the higher income people. charlie: do i hear you saying that i am embarrassed by the personal attacks taken place and all i have done is respond to attacks, but i am embarrassed and there is a toned to this campaign that i do not like. i do not like that i have to participate in it and it was it would stop on both sides.

bernie sanders: yes. i am willing to say that. look, you are looking at a guy who has been in politics for a long time, ran many elections. i have never run a negative campaign. this campaign, as i am sure you can appreciate, every other day people come up to me and say, are you going to attack mcclendon foundation? -- clinton foundation? you saw me in the debate right when i was asked about e-mails, i said, enough of these e-mails. charlie: that is not what you are saying now. the tenor of this campaign has changed when you are questioning the qualifications of a person to be president. whether they are questioning you -- bernie sanders: you are right. what i want to say is, when i see the headlines mcclinton questions whether sanders is qualified to be president, you know what, we're going to say something. charlie: don qoa to yourself --

don't you go it to yourself and those that would vote, to sibley look at the headlines -- simply look at the headlines and -- bernie sanders: it was not just the headline. what they have said, publicly is that the tenor will change. they will go much more negative on us and they have. that is a fact. cnn says, this is a quote from himr campaign, "to defeat and unify the party later." i hope it is not happen. if your question is that i prefer -- charlie: no, to make a pledge that you will not engage in this, that this is not the politics you want to play. this is from you in september of 2015.

look at this. >> i happen to have known hillary clinton for the last 25 years, i respect her and admire her and i am a going to attack her. charlie: you have. bernie sanders: if i hired you tomorrow, katie more than cbs is, be my campaign manager. and we get attacked every day, people talk about how i am not qualified. you are my campaign manager, what you said? -- what do you said? -- say? charlie: i would say, be careful about what you said so there is no possibility of saying something that was not said based on a headline. bernie sanders: if you listen to what the surrogates are saying -- the way that politics work can be very nice, but those surrogates are doing dirty work. charlie: they have been doing

dirty work? bernie sanders: on and on. look, the point i think you are making, this is not a good thing. charlie: when you think about ted cruz's momentum now, you obviously know how to play , because you are any place that many people do not believe he would be at this moment. bernie sanders: yes. that is it exactly. look, i think there is growing embarrassment if you like, over -- it is not just the american people in general, you can look at the sky and see a temperament that reflects that that type of person should not be president. but you have a lot of republicans who are feeling this. charlie: what would disqualify him to be president? bernie sanders: when you talk

insultwhen you actively mexicans, latinos, muslims, islam is one of the greatest, largest religions in the world. when you insult women it seems, every other day, veterans, saying that john mccain was not a war hero. charlie: does that disqualify him to be president? bernie sanders: did i say disqualify? i think that the american people cannot have a president that is group.ng every this is a guy, also. he was involved in a movement before he was a candidate, that was an attack on the legitimacy of the presidency of our first president.rican

this was not a disagreement with president obama, this was, he should not be president. that was a vicious attack trying to undermine the president of the u.s. it was an attack on the african-american community. and i think when people see that , they should thing, this guy should not be present. charlie: do you think that the --t that president clinton obama hasresident done these trade deals, do you think that means he should not be president? look, i did my best to see that he won and was reelected. i have been very supportive of most of his initiatives. we have differences of opinion on trade. i do not support the transpacific partnership. charlie: neither does secretary clinton. bernie sanders: you are right. she can about saying that it was a good agreement, but then that she no longer supports it. charlie: we will come back to

the iraqi staying -- thing. you made a point to say that she voted for the iraqi war, many other people did as well. do you hold all of them responsible for the deaths of americans? bernie sanders: no. charlie: then why say it? bernie sanders: i am saying it because i was attacked. charlie: that is not good enough. bernie sanders: am i responsible -- look, we have gun tragedies. sandy hook was one of the worst things i could possibly think of. mothers, dad, sending kids to school and this. havenow, by the way, i worked to ban assault weapons, the very weapon that was used in that terrible slaughter. and now, i am being asked to apologize.

you know, so. charlie: take a look, this is from the daily news. this is the same newspaper that was protecting and defending when president ford said stop. does this bother you? bernie sanders: of course. sandy hook, it is almost unspeakable that some sick person could walk into a school and to do that. let me just start off, you are looking at a man who ran for the united states congress in 1988, one seat in vermont. i was opposed by all other people, because i thought that maybe we should not sell or distribute assault weapons designed to kill people. maybe because i stood up for those people. from attacked, you know, because,- so you know,

of course i do not like it. charlie: do you believe that even though you say you said it, because you had been attacked, basic do you believe that? that hillary clinton is responsible for that -- deaths in iraq because she voted for it? bernie sanders: i believe getting into the war in iraq and what bush and cheney had to say was the worst foreign-policy blunder in the modern history of this country. it led to massive destabilization of a region and death. it was a terrible blunder. do i think that any member of the senate or the house who votes for war is responsible for every person who dies, of course not. charlie: then don't say it. bernie sanders: this is an election. there are two candidates running, i've been attacked over

and over again, called unqualified to be president and i do not like that. you are making the point many times that you want the tenor of this campaign to be higher and i agree. charlie: do you make a point, that notwithstanding the tenor of the campaign, that we are engaged in a debate and what we believe in and what we would do as president and come november 2016, if hillary clinton is the nominee, you will be supporting her? bernie sanders: i would love to hear hillary clinton make the same point that she will be supporting me. charlie: i will ask her. you answer the question. bernie sanders: look, i think the idea of donald trump or ted cruz as president would be a disaster for this country. i will do everything in my power and work as hard as i can to make sure that that does not happen. is thery clinton, if she nominee, i will support her.

charlie: there is enthusiasm for your candidacy. is it because they are opposed to secretary clinton, but -- or is it, that there has been a connection to you for the future of america? where do you think it is part of the former? bernie sanders: i do not know that. we had a rally last night in philadelphia, 14,000 people, a lot of working-class people, young people, who really understand that as a great nation we can do much better than we have been doing. and they want to be part of that process and i think that the agenda we have outlined is something they are responding to, strongly. charlie: thank you. bernie sanders: thank you. always a pleasure. ♪

♪ charlie: adam schiff is here, he represents california's 28th congressional district, and he is a leading voice on national security. he is also a member of the select committee for benghazi. it continues to face controversy as it investigates the 2012 terrorist attack. i am pleased to have you. you have been on the show, but not at the table. welcome. guest: good to be here. charlie: in terms of isis

did those isis, what in paris tell you about strategy and what do you know that we should know ? guest: what is said to me was the problem we have worried about, foreign fighters, those who have left europe and gone to syria and iraq and came back, that this problem is manifest. you have an enormous amount of people from belgium, france, or from belgium than anywhere else, they have been trained in warfare. they have been further radicalized and they are getting help from fellow europeans that never went to join the fight, but are serving as logistical hubs. unfortunately, there is no end in site. there are still very poor medications between european communicationsor between european countries.

this is a lot like the united states, pre-9/11. charlie: these are people who have passports from western countries or from the united states? guest: luckily we have not had that many from the united states, but some. this challenge from the foreign fighters is a greater fear. frome benefit tremendously the oceans. the immediate threat for us is homegrown radicals, those inspired by isis propaganda. it is incredibly pernicious, we have not done much in combating that, probably because we are not very good at social media. and now we are using a very different strategy, a sensible empowering those to speak on this. charlie: how would you assess the french effort and belgium's effort to stop this attack? guest: they begin with a far

greater problem and less resources devoted to the task. they have been behind from the beginning. they are ramping up personnel, but it takes time. these law enforcement officials cannot be trained overnight, said they are playing against the clock and unfortunately it shows in the tragic attacks we have seen. charlie: but they are not going to a reassessment, what we did right, what we did wrong. and anyone of those killed in the brussels attack, having been warned by the turkish government, so they have been going through an agonizing assessment. guest: the question they need to answer, will they allow information to travel faster than people? if they will continue to have free travel within europe, they will have to make her the intelligence travels faster. right now, it is not and that poses a very real threat. charlie: passing information.

guest: yes. charlie: the encryption battle, all of a sudden we had apple versus the fbi and then the fbi somehow, i cannot wait to learn how, told somebody that they could open that and this on the san bernardino phone. what does that do to the encryption debate? >> not very much. it takes it off the front burner in terms of the case involving the san bernardino shooters, but the issue hasn't gone away. indeed, it's become all the more acute in light of apple's announcement that they are encrypting everything. this is really a spectacular change. i was a prosecutor for six years, and i can't imagine as a former prosecutor, a world in which essentially a wiretap is useless. as people migrate from land lines to cell phones. charlie: perhaps an agreement with the f.b.i.'s argument, then, if you hadn't been a prosecutor?

>> it gives me an appreciation for it. that change, in which search warrants will have far less utility because you won't be able to open the thing with the most information, the phone, the fact that the telecommunications won't be accessible to wiretaps, those things are enormous changes but the other really enormous change, and this is why this issue is so challenging is for people in iran, and people in russia and people in china and people in grease and turkey, who are worried about their own government listening in, legitimate conversations, this is equally enormous and consequential. it's a very legitimate argument. charlie: they make the argument for china specifically because they have so many items sold in china. >> the real crux for apple may come if china poses the same question that the f.b.i. has. if china says, we need you to unlock these devices, if you want to do business here. charlie: what would happen if they make that demand? >> i don't know. i do suspect, and i think

congress is nowhere near a consensus, but i do suspect the best path, if we can find our way to it, is to have government, privacy stake holders, technology, sit at a table like this and figure out what's within the realm of doable. i have asked the national county of sciences to do an encryption report. we asked them back in the fall. that i think will help guide us. charlie: is there a question of either we go through the courts or we go to the congress and is there a developing consensus that it ought to be the congress? >> i think there is growing consensus it ought to be the congress. that doesn't mean that the bureau won't in particular cases go to the court if they need to while congress works its way on it. i think apple is right. the weighing of privacy and security to be resolved in litigation.

at the same time, apple also understands we're such a dysfunctional body, that if you leave to it congress we aren't likely to do anything and the status quo is in the technology sector's favor. but ultimately we do have to balance these questions. they are enormously far reaching. i don't think we're equipped to do it at the present. i think we need a lot more information. one of the things i would like to know, and from independent experts, this whole technological question of whether you can safely have a door, if technology companies can guard their source code, if they can guard their electronic signature, why can't they retain a means, when they update a phone, for example, with a court order, to give access. i don't know the technological answer.

i wouldn't want to rely completely on the tech sector. charlie: according to their argument, if you force us to do it all of a sudden it will be opening up phones all over the world. >> that is the argument. charlie: do you believe there is a different way to find -- >> i don't know. i don't know. charlie: but i assume you've had conversations with these apple officials and others in the community. >> yes. absolutely. look, we want them to be successful. we need them to be successful. there is every reason not only from the economic point of view but from a national security point of view to want our own industries to be successful because even if we're locked out of encrypted information, the fact that companies are here, devices are made here, it's advantageous just across the spectrum. and this is part of the challenge, it's a global technology. even if we were to insist on doors here that doesn't mean that others overseas will insist on doors there. nor is it necessarily desirable

that they should. charlie: benghazi committee, where does it stand? >> that's a good question. i wish as a member of the committee i could give you the answer. the reality is we don't know in the minority. i'm not sure the majority knows either and this has been the problem all along. a committee in search of a purpose. we've uncovered nothing that alters the conclusions from better. charlie: say that slowly. you've not altered any of the conclusions of the any of the previous commissions or investigations? >> we haven't found new facts that alter the conclusions we had reached before we began this committee. charlie: is there an operative idea on the part of the committee that secretary clinton lied? >> well, look, i think operative idea on the g.o.p. side of this committee is clinton must be stopped from getting to the white house.

but that's their political motivation. that's -- charlie: the benghazi, does have it any residence with the wider political community in america? >> look, i think the g.o.p. considers the benghazi issue a valuable one politically because it plays into a narrative that they would like to tell about the secretary. charlie: which is, she's not trustworthy? >> they don't trust her that she operates by a different set of rules. this is the narrative they want to sell to the american people. charlie: what is your theory of the case, in terms of what she did at the time? >> well, look, she's acknowledged, it was a mistake for her to use her own server. she should have used the state department email system, as insecure as that ultimately proved to be. charlie: is that the benghazi commission? >> mostly no. charlie: maybe some things happened that are relevant? >> well, only to the extent -- the mission of the majority of the benghazi committee -- charlie: the other idea which

has some conversations in the community is whether secretary clinton might be indicted, because of the server. you're in the congress, you know the f.b.i. >> i don't think there is any credibility to that. if you look at the facts, secretary, largely receiving emails, most of which were classified after the fact, not even classified at the time she received them. and those that may have been classified at the time were not marked as such. they weren't shared with outside third parties. none other criteria you with see in a criminal case. charlie: to lead to an indictment of the secretary, in terms of just simply having a personal server in her house. >> nothing that i can see. charlie: you supported the iran nuclear deal. with some caveats, it's fair to say. >> yes. charlie: what were your reservations about it? >> my chief reservation was that at the end of the period of the deal, in about eight or 10 years, some of it goes on longer, that iran would have a very fast and efficient industrial nuclear capability, for peaceful purposes, but nonetheless, what i had hoped

would be a token nuclear program at all, to save face, instead, ask -- is a very substantial program. there are two breakout times. how long does it take to create the material and how long does it take to create the mechanism of the bomb. in 10 years the breakout times in terms of the fusion material will be close to zero. they will be able to produce the material they need very quickly. that was a bitter pill to swallow. and, frankly, only the fact that you would go from a breakout period when we started negotiation of a matter of weeks, to more than a year for a decade, with this very rigorous process of inspections and the ability to snap back sanctions, outweighed that bitter pill that we had to swallow.

charlie: thank you for coming. it's a pleasure for you to be here. hope we can do it again. ♪

charlie: for 35 years he's brought the documentary tradition to the forefront. his civil war series was the highest rated series on public television. he's created authoritative accounts on the history of baseball, jazz, and much, much

more. he revisit's america's pastime with a new documentary on the life and legacy of jackie robinson. he was unwilling to accept discrimination before he came to major league baseball. >> from a little kid. he got it from his mother. she was a wonderful woman and he entered into this remarkable partnership. the film that we've made is, in many ways, a love story. a multigenerational for from the of a african-american family as well as a portrait of civil rights in the back half of the 20th century. when he came up and walked out on the diamond, charlie, on april 15, 1947, martin luther king was still in college. harry truman hasn't integrated the military. rosa parks was a decade away from refusing to give up her seat though jackie had done it back in 1944 in the army and got it court-martialed. and then you realize what a wonderful great sort of judge of character he was, realized, this is the guy with the fiery temper who will be able to headlined that temper to make this experiment work. jackie pass that is with flying colors. you said he was not only the most important person in baseball, he was one of the most important americans whoever

lived. >> i think so i would up him in the top 20, when you think about the lincolns and the washingtons and did jeffersons and the martin luther kings. if you think about what he represented, you think about the burden that he carried, fact that, you know, we're in the media business and we talk a lot. and he walked the walk. he got up every day, since that meeting in brooklyn heights, when he met, and i think he got up every day and tried to make the lives of other people better. charlie: what was that moment like?

>> it was a great moment. we always posited, that he would pick jackie robinson. he was planning to pick up a lot of people. we always think, that he had the idea. he was a great man and he did it not only for great reasons but humanitarian reasons. the african-american press had been pressing. the radical press, including the organizer of the communist party in america, was pushing. a liberal republican mayor of new york was pushing. lots of stuff, and he was

beginning to fear that this moment was going to lose him. jackie sort of fell into his lap. he dispatched the scout, who we interviewed. you know, he checked jackie out and brought him to this meeting. he never said more than -- just screamed at him about what he was going to face, tall things that people were going to yell at him that did come true. jackie, can you not, you know, fight back? and he said, he thought he could do it. >> he said, do you have a woman? >> he said, yes. >> good, you need to marry her. it's true, without rachel i don't think jackie survives. i don't think he gets through it. i think it's too much. but they formed this partnership and this bond, and she carries that message, the dna from jackie to us to this day. i very powerful and moving. charlie: do you think he doesn't get the credit? >> think what happens is, that in our life, we like to simplify. we cut corners with jackie. we promoted in that 1994 series the idea that he had put his arm around him and it just takes a little bit of investigation, it's not in jackie's auto biography. there is no mention of it in the white press, no mention of it in the black press, which would have run 20 related stories. when you're playing first base and pee wee is at shortstop you don't go across the diamond and put your arm around. it's not baseball rhetoric. maybe later on when he played second base, he might have did it. i think time it's maybe that it's no pun intended that white people wanted to have more skin in this game.

to think that we were good, as the historian says in our film, that we wanted to do well. what jackie went through is beyond the pale. black cats on the field. opposing teams, trouble with his own teammates. pitchers pitching at his head. charlie: when did he change from taking it because he said you'll have to take to it make this transition? >> he said three years. first year in the minors, he's at triple-a, a club in the montreal, which was good. they were a little bit different about race. he did that there and he did it for two years. 1947-1948. he was told he was released and

he was ready to go, so he talked back to umpires, he got on other players' cases, he spoke out in the media, why aren't the yankees integrating, they said, we haven't found a black player good enough. he wouldn't accept that. when he retired he used baseball as a bridge to the civil rights movement. he was going out and visiting georgia and alabama on behalf of dr. king. he was hosting jazz concerts in his back yard and sending the money south for the efforts of the civil rights movement. he's hugely important. and he's a republican. who initially is supporting -- yeah, who is officially -- charlie: rockefeller. >> he's going to be sent to a chain gang. later, it's so interesting even today, jackie robinson, if you liberate him from the tyranny of

mythology, all the stuff that's happening in the last few years but it's also, if you go to the 1964 convention with him you realize that's the moment when the republican party founded in 19 -- 1854, in wisconsin-- the sole purpose of abolishing slavery, decides to make the switch. charlie: the convention that nominated barry goldwater. >> earlier that year, there is a civil rights bill that's passed, with a lot of republican support. a huge amount of republican support. in order to get it through. but at that point, the republican party, and particularly the goldwater campaign is going to employ what we call the southern strategy and they are switching from african-americans voting for the republican party to voting democratic. that began with the new deal. charlie: there is so much to talk about here. let me just show one clip. it shows you the reverence he's held in by so many people. this is the president and the

first lady. roll take. >> any time you're involved in an endeavor that involves enormous stress, finding yourself questioned in terms of whether you should be where you are, to be able to go back and have refuge, with someone who you know loves you, and you know has your back, that's priceless. >> just being able to find that solace and peace to withstand all the negative energy, you know, it's hard to do that alone. so there is nothing more important than family, than a real partnership, which is probably what made him such a great man because he had the judgment to find a partner that, well, i think -- it's true. i mean, that's a sign of his character, that he chose a woman that was his equal. i don't think he he would have had jackie robinson without rachel. charlie: very interesting moment with the president. >> this is a couple, the most powerful couple on earth arguably who are utterly transparent and just like every other couple, husband is trying to agree, yes, dear and it's so moving and funny at the same time. he's nodding, yes, yes. i love it. charlie: i think he was probably nodding because i'm somewhat the same way. a very strong woman. she's right.

>> this is an african-american man going there you the door for the first time and this is another african-american man going through a different door, obviously, a more important one, the presidency, but all of them drawing from the forbearance of jackie robinson. so when he says you're questioning to go home and have somebody who loves you and has your back, this is exactly what jackie felt with rachel. one of the most poignant things, is he began to speak of what he did on the field. he would say what we did. and if, even the spectacular play, hall of fame career that he hard, was theirs. and that they could -- they could together weather the storm as rachel says in the film. charlie: okay. how good was he as a player? as a pioneer?

>> howard bryant says he's arguably you could say the best american athlete ever. he was -- charlie: best american athlete ever? >> that was -- major league baseball is wonderful, that was the place where the experiment happened. the first real great progress, societal progress, a cultural progress, after the civil war happens in baseball. baseball sometimes has followed but i think in retiring his anybody and making it so symbolically important, it speaks volumes about how jackie was. he said that the life is measured by the difference it makes in other people's lives and he actually lived that creed doe and that's an amazing, amazing testament. i feel that, with sarah -- what sarah and i and dave have been

able to do is remove a little bit of the fog and say, here's the real man. complicated, mistakes, undertow, but much more interesting and inspiring. charlie: why did you choose jimmie foxx? >> we had not intended to have any first person voices, because we had so many witnesses to it. but there were enough things that jackie said in his writings and in his columns and in his love letters to rachel, that were going to fall outside the purview of even rachel's memory who dominates this film. and so i went to jamie and he said, yes, i said, i don't mean to imitate his very distinctive

voice. i just want you to be the voice almost from the grave that sounds cliche, but reading the dozen or so quotes that we have throughout both of these episodes, to sort of hear from him. and there are sometimes when you want to hear from him, when he's turning the other cheek, an amazing thing about how he just wanted to turn to the philadelphia phillies dugout and goack and smash out the guy's teeth.

he doesn't do it. but it's really good to hear that that was what was running through him and so it's not just the saintly jesus like jackie robinson who turns the other cheek. charlie: what was life like after baseball? >> it was complicated. some family tragedies involved. great activity involved with the civil rights movement. a developing relationship with rachel. she wanted to have a job. a career. and he was at first reluctant, and she had to educate him and set him straight about that. and then, you know, he's, like dr. king, not an advocate of violent solutions, and so when malcolm x says we've been listening too long to the ignorant peachers who would suggest that we should turn the

other cheek he's talking about dr. king but also jackie robinson so there is a while, at the end of the 1960s, where they are calling him an uncle tom, when he used to be, before sit-in -- freedomer before freedom rides. charlie: take a look at this remarkable woman what stood by him and was a voice as strong for him. here it is. >>e went to our first spring training on our honeymoon. it was terrible. we were bumped from two planes to getting there. we were bumped in new orleans, we were bumped in pensacola, florida. and white passengers were put on in our place. i had never seen signs on rest rooms, on water facets and that kind of thing. so i went into the lady's -- white lady's bathroom, just so i could recover my own sense of myself and i walked in there and did what i had to do. the ladies walked out. we finally took a bus to spring training. from jacksonville. on our honeymoon. we went to the back of the bus. and when it got dark i started to cry. because i had felt my great husband, who had been a fighter and a dignified person, had been reduced by discrimination and by segregation. charlie: will we ever get past race or should we ever get past race? >> you know, when you realize that all the stuff that was happening with jackie is still happening, the pessimist in us would say no. this is, you know, the american original sin, human sin. the live of one own's metastasizes into the hatred of another. the way we respond is different among us, and we still have a lot of folks who still don't judge people by the cone tents of their character, as dr. king said but by the color of their skin. but i sort of firmly believe that i had an opportunity here to interview the president of the united states, and the first lady, who are african-american,

in a film about the first african-american to play in baseball. so i have to be -- i think history makes you an optimist. there was a thing in our roosevelt film where george said, flange lynn roosevelt had a sense of history was a rising road and i have to believe that otherwise, you know, we can get better. we must get better. we have to do that. the only way you do it is to confront it. you can't run from it, which is what we always do. charlie: thank you for coming. >> thank you. charlie: ken burns, part one and two, on the great jackie robinson coming up on pbs. thank you for joining us. see you next time. ♪ ♪

mark: let's begin with a check of your first word news. a suspect in the november 13 paris attacks has been arrested in belgium. muhammad abrini is believed to be the man in the hat who escaped the double bombing at the airport. if confirmed, it would mean he played a key role in both attacks carried out by an islamic state cell in paris and brussels. officials are putting then extradition of another suspect on hold. 4e fled to belgium after the paris attacks. officials blame the delay on an ongoing investigation into a dead pli police raid into a brussels neighborhood the day before his arrest. bernie sanders c