♪ john: welcome to this edition of the "best of with all due respect." mark, this was the week that reset the week. john: we saw wisconsin build a big boost to ted cruz and bernie sanders, and they blow through clinton and donald trump. we watched as the race came to the empire state, home turf of the two front runners and birthplace of bernie sanders. in an interview following her loss, hillary clinton gave her rival a taste of new york magic. >> jeff weaver says something very interesting, inflammatory on the air, saying the clinton

campaign, secretary clinton, the y need to be careful not to destroy the democratic party merely in pursuit of her own ambitions to be president. very strong words, your response? hillary clinton: it is just ludicrous on the face of this. i have been campaigning for democrats, fundraising for democrats, recruiting democrats to run and win for a really long time. i think about 40 years. i understand they are getting anxious, i get that. but they need to be thoughtful about what they do say, because at the end of the day, we need a democratic president. he has been campaigning now for a year gone his core issues of inequality, which i agree with, and i have put forward my own plan.

in the interview, it seemed unclear as to whether he understood how dodd-frank works -- i think i was a little bit surprised there did not seem to be a lot of substance to what he was saying. john: she went after him hard, harder than i seen after her go after him directly. do you think she is behaving this way, taking on sanders more aggressively, because she is worried, or she senses his jugular is exposed as she can go get it? mark: she is not worried. she knows from her campaign point of view that she is going to be the nominee. she is frustrated, and she wants and out of the race. she wants them to stop winning. he is not going to get out of the race if he keeps winning primaries and caucuses. she is trying to go after him the way candidates do to have him stop winning, not because she is worried he will get more delegates, but she wants him out of the race so she can focus on the general election. john: there are campaigns and centering around rivals.

it is political posturing. i think the way she is probably personally offended by how vapid on a level so sanders' responses were to some of the questions. i cannot believe this guy -- if i answered these questions, i would be torn apart. that is clear. in addition to frustration, she is amazed and in some ways appalled by how weak sanders was on substance. mark: if he beat her in new york, this contest will go to june. the means hillary clinton will have no advantage having wrapped up her nomination any sooner than donald trump or ted cruz, because they will go to june too the matter what. she wants and out of the race. she is try to take advantage of weaknesses to get him out, and she thinks they are abundant. she also knows, or at least one of her advisers knows, new york is a place where, if you are not playing offense, you are playing defense. they want to go after sanders on the living debate in the new

york media -- looming debate in the new york media. john: they know it is competitive, but unlike wisconsin where they said earlier they thought they were in trouble and they thought they were being honest, the extent to which they think of competitive here, they are overstating confidence. she is going for the jugular. mark: speaking of bernie sanders, last night, the vermont senator hold off a big win against clinton in wisconsin. he beat her 53% to 47%. his win got him 47 delegates, she took 46 delegates. sanders campaign continues to say they have momentum on their side to secure the nomination this summer while the clinton said the sanders scenario is impossible, going to improbable. if you are making a best case for sanders being the democratic nominee, how does that play out? john: he does win in new york, but i think she is the front runner for sure.

and the battle from wisconsin momentum, that has surprising victories in pennsylvania, new jersey, maybe he beats her in california. not saying highlights, but that is the best scenario. he manages to ride the momentum and get close enough and pledged delegates he can make the argument he is the better candidate in the general election than trump or ted cruz. mark: if you look at the calendar coming up, a lot of states, if he wins new york he can be heard in. the guy will not get out of the race, but he still needs relatively big wins starting with new york, and that he needs some prominent superdelegates to express doubts about her. head to head national polls to continue to favor him against mythical matchups against republicans, and then another intervening event, something like the e-mail investigation, something with the clinton family, something else that causes democrats to say, maybe we should go to the convention like republicans are doing and

have this out as a family in philadelphia. john: thinking about sanders point of view, the strength of his argument on the superdelegates front, they are try to keep someone from being unelectable. right now, he is performing better than her against republican rivals. that will be, in theory, powerful. it says to superdelegates i am better than her. mark: and the "morning joe" interview with joe asked hillary clinton should bernie sanders get out, she says, i remember would people tried to get me out, i was doing well, i did not want to get out. so is long as the keys winning, he should not be out of the race. great moments in new york's primary history. two guys that know all about it. ♪

♪ bill clinton: good morning, john. john: how are you? bill clinton: i am disappointed you did not call me bubba. [laughter] bill clinton: that is an honorable term where i come from. john: that was bill clinton and john imus second 1992. our next guests remember how he got the nomination in that fatal bled year. the entire state is the key for hillary clinton just like it was for her husband. here to talk about it, john podhoretz, editor of the "commentary" and columnist with "the new york post," and adam

nagourney, the bureau chief for the "los angeles times." try to convey to anyone who does not understand what a competitive new york primary on the public inside, try to convey what that is like. >> people like me, new yorkers talking about it not being true, it is crazy. new york invented 24/7 before there was 24/7. it is on the last places in the world except london were you have a really competitive newspaper. you have larger-than-life reporters who really know how to make news and view their role as trying to provoke candidates. we saw that, and you also have players in the form of '92 as david dinkins, who liked the metal event, which we are seeing with bill de blasio. it is incredible, really intense. i believe that by the end of that process, clinton liked what happened.

despite everything going on, being heckled by an aids protester, he did well in new york. mark: i'm excited about the next two weeks, and i don't want to talk about the good old days, but what about this event in the bronx? there were no reporters -- there were three, and there were two national. in my day, if two national reporters tried to dominate, there would have been a revolt. i don't see a tablet competition the way it is, local news covering politics the way they used to. is this a toned down, slimmed-down new york primary as compared to 1992? >> sure, absolutely, and you have the phenomenon of a lot more local talk radio in new york than the 1990's that you don't have now. i think there is a story you are missing, which is this is the first time in our lifetime that a republican primary is going to matter at all in any way, shape, or form. trump has it in the bag, but

there are 400,000 republicans, registered republicans, in new york city to whom nobody has ever made the slightest gesture ever, ever. we are not talking about -- except for running for congress -- no one has ever looked at them, no one has ever talked to them. mark: they were ambushed a little bit. john podhoretz: in 2012, the congressional districts, 3000 people voted in the republican primary. 3000 people, the possibility of playing regional politics games here on the part of trump, cruz, and kasich, that has never happened in new york. mark: adam, 3000 miles away but watching closely, what do you think bernie sanders' potential is to make mischief or hillary clinton? adam nagourney: i think it is high, and because of the tabloid culture.

new york news reporters have liked stirring it up. they like sticking it to clinton. bernie sanders kind of gets that. bill clinton -- excuse me, hillary clinton and donald trump know the new york culture we are talking about, which i still think exists. i know your point from earlier, but still, that will matter a lot. we saw the shortfalls. i am not really getting at with sanders in the daily news interview and made all of those, what i would say, in temperate remarks. he was saying, the daily news, it is just a dumb tabloid. if you had been around new york -- and maybe they are getting older and not getting out to the bronx as much as they used to, but they want to make an impact, and they know their stuff. john podhoretz: can i make a contrary argument?

"the daily news" interview was a disaster for sanders if you assume the sanders voter cares about issues. this is the reverse mirror image of trump. they are not groaning on issues, they are voting on one thing or two things, feelings screwed, pitchforking the banks. they say he does not know anything, just blabbing about nothing, and yet, here sanders is having won six straight, won of primary in wisconsin. mark: in the culture of the new york media, maybe for sanders voters, hillary supporters also -- it creates a fire that keeps him from breaking through. john podhoretz: that is the question, how stoked are hillary supporters anywhere?

in wisconsin last night, her voters in the exit pole said 13% were enthusiastic about her possibility of being president, 13%. i don't think there is stoking, i don't know they are stoked. that is the question. mark: you are out 3000 miles, you covered hillary clinton in the state. it is now a decade since she was elected statewide, elected twice statewide as senator and 2006. does she still have a real hold over the new york democratic electorate, or is she vulnerable here in a significant way? adam nagourney: i would not assume for a second that she still has a hold. she lived through the campaign, she gets the culture, so she knows. winning with her husband, she has run two campaigns, so three campaigns. she knows it. i don't think there is the kind

of hard connection to hillary voters that there is for bill clinton and other people over the years, but that said, if i had a choice, i would rather it be her that bernie sanders in the culture we are talking about. john: let me ask you a question about what you do if you are hillary clinton. bernie sanders is going to come here and he is going to have huge rallies in washington square park. she will have thousands of people, she will never have crowd like that, never will. what does she do to counter the perception bernie sanders is going to walk -- show up in new york and be generating all of this enthusiasm for visibly in front of all the cameras in the media capital of the world? john podhoretz: i would go to a lot of local media, talk to every columnist i can go to, go on the brian lehrer show, go in

twoe 18 times in the next weeks. talk to moderate to liberal voters to remind them how they like her. i would play that card. i think she also needs to boost her vote among african-americans in some of these northern states. in wisconsin last night, it is not bad to get 71%, but in the south you is getting 90%, 92% of the african-american vote. if you can get that number up, she will be solid in new york. i don't think there is relative indication she has met incredibly high percentage at the bank. mark: will we see trump ride the subway or eat a knisch before the primary? adam nagourney: yes on subway, no on knisch. john podhoretz: i vote no on subway, he is a germophobe. he will not get on the subway. john: adam nagourney, please come back. john, please stay here.

john: what alex wagner learned from the folks for bernie. ♪ ♪

john: last that was the finale of the nomination fight portion of "the circus." we do this with bloomberg politics. we will be taking a break before coming back on the summer before the convention. for this episode we brought alex wagner and her compadre, mark mckinnon. alex got the chance to talk to bernie sanders supporters we are now calling naturally the bernie badgers. ♪ alex: so we are at the badgers

for bernie headquarters in wisconsin. this is the distilation of the sanders campaign. totally grassroots, young, fired up idealistic people. it is a movement. anyone in this room undecided? ok, i am kidding. i figured. how are you feeling about tuesday? >> feeling better everyday. alex: wisconsin is a big deal because it is a primary states, it could play a pivotal role. >> wisconsin is not only the birth of the progressive movement, but the birth of mccarthyism. alex: i believe it is statisically the most polarized state. >> is a swing state because of the polarization. alex: let me ask your question, only one of them will be the nominee. what is going to happen? >> people will vote for bernie. the question is, hillary supporters never get it. what happens when she wins?

>> i can tell you the reason that we get that question is that we have attracted so many groups that normally do not vote, and the question is, if the candidate inspired you to get involved no longer in the race, what is the likelihood you will fall in line with the party? alex: if you are faced with donald trump and hillary clinton -- >> it is tough for a lot of people. i am for bernie right now. alex: there is a very strong emotional core, right? that is central to the organizing efforts of the campaign too. they are really confident about madison. i think they are going to win. john: back from wisconsin, joining us now for the magic of television, we are here with alex wagner. thank you for coming on this show, having been on that show. alex: i am following wherever you have a broadcast, i want to be a part of it. john: you spent much time following bernie sanders and

also hillary clinton. let's get it sense of how the race is shaping out. alex: i liken it to a engagement, what do you do then marriage does not work out? they don't want to think about the possibility bernie sanders does not get the nomination. you are still talking to massive crowds of very committed, very engaged, largely young people who see a stark difference between the two democratic candidates. right now, they are full steam ahead. mark: you had the same experience that you saw in the clip, sanders supporters tend to be like the most well-informed people i ever talked to in politics. why is that? how has it manifested itself? alex: for a lot of them, is the first time they have really been engaged in a national political process, and they've gotten really informed. i have read -- one of the people

in that bernie badgers colloquy, he found out about bernie sanders from the bbc. they are getting media from different sources, and they are going deep dive. they listen. we went to a bunch of bernie sanders events in wisconsin, and he gets into the issues. they know those issues, and it is almost like call-in response. i liken it to a revival. they are going to hear the good word. it is scripture for the sanders followers. mark: but they know a ton about the delicate process. alex: totally, and that is dangerous for clinton, because they are convening to talk about clinton delegates versus superdelegates. if everyone thinks it will be kumbaya and the dominoes fall and everyone will get in line for clinton, i think there will

be a circling of the wagons. john: this is like a web extra. wadr exclusive, we showed you going to a clinton rally and the sanders rally talking to people in line at both places, stark differences in terms of the level of commitment. just talk about that, compare and contrast. alex: at the clinton event, which was the last of it she was -- last event that she was going to have before she left the of wisconsin, it was a good crowd. i went through the crowd asking people what they thought about her chances in wisconsin. literally have the by spoke to were saying, i am still undecided, or i love sanders, i loaded like to see a unity ticket. contrast the sanders rally, thousands of people, i literally walked around the line screening -- screaming out, is anyone here undecided? people laughed at me you could not find someone who was thinking maybe i will support hillary clinton. john: the question for most people in line, are you asking if i and excited? alex: someone was like, are you serious, also insulted.

mark: so what happens when the circus moves to new york? does that make a difference? alex: he is already pulling huge crowds in new york. every week is another chance for the sanders campaign. the longer they have momentum, the hopes are raised, and the more people think this marriage can work out and the harder it is for clinton. i am not sure you will have sanders people go to trump, but the heartbreak will be more pronounced if clinton is the nominee. john: we have seen frustration of the situation. what will she do, how will she react if you go to new york and sanders is drawing thousands and she is drawing hundreds? alex: i think we are seeing the frustration evident in the clinton campaign. they want to put this away.

she wants to pivot and focus on trump and the general. i think the case she is going to have to make that resonates with center supporters is, consider the alternative, look at the clinton presidency for the country, there is a difference between clinton and trump, so yeah. mark: how is she performing? alex: you went to wisconsin, she is still fighting for it. she is a better campaigner this go around then in 2008, and she went into the eyes wide open knowing it would require stamina and tenacity. she has not disappointed. john: if we ask you to come back later, will you? alex: i am following you guys wherever you go, what is for dinner? mark: go to the greenroom and have a cocktail. john: you can have it for free. mark: we will talk politics with tavis smiley after this. ♪ ♪

mark: we have pbs talker and thinker tavis smiley. he has a new book called "50 for you: lessons from down the road." tavis smiley: good to see you both. mark: if you were telling french tourists about the democratic race for president, tell us the story about what is happening now. how would you explain it to them? tavis smiley: that is unusual, that a party standardbearer would find herself caught in a race that is far from over. the numbers certainly are in her favor, but this race is, i think it is still bernie's -- i will not say it is bernie's to lose,

that is putting too much on it, but if he can pull off an upset in new york, we have a real fight on our hands. every week, you know this more than anybody, but every week we are going back and forth knowing if we will have one contested convention or two. john: part of the reason hillary clinton has such a large delegate lead is because she did well in states in the south with large african-american populations, right? she has over-performed much better than he has with african-americans. do you you think that is meriting, that is earned, on her part? tavis smiley: some of it is. the clintons have had a big relationship with african-americans, and there is good and bad in that. these are public servants, not perfect servants. there was a book on white hillary clinton does not deserve the black vote. the clintons let black america down on prison reform, bill clinton went to the naacp to

apologize about something he did on crime bills. clinton appointed more black judges, so it is good news, bad news story. on the other hand, i don't like it, i don't like it when black voters are taken for granted or ignored by the other party. i think she learned the last time around when you expect a coronation and find yourselves in an election in the dog fight this time around. mark: she says president obama will be more aggressive speaking on her behalf. how big a factor to think he can he can be in the general election, where his approval rating is, and the has become this? tavis smiley: i don't know what his impact will be outside of the african-american community, because the numbers are what they are. the numbers are getting better. with the african-american vote, i have found that it is not an

automatic conclusion that one can draw that just because a black person says, vote for this person, they will all do that. it is a huge difference obviously, but you already know this, there is a huge difference between barack obama being on the ballot and barack obama campaigning for somebody on the ballot. i think the clintons, they are smart people running her campaign. they have to know there is automatically going to be a drop in the african-american turnout just because this brother is not on the ballot. how much that drop is going to be, i do not know. how much harder they have to work to make sure turnout is significant enough to push them over the top is a question i don't have the answer to. john: so bernie sanders is more in tune with the democratic base on a wide variety of issues, that is part of the reason why he has been able to generate

enthusiasm and give clinton a challenge. if you have been asked in the beginning of the sanders campaign, listen, we know we are the right side of the issues, what would you do? how would you advise him, how would you assess how well he has done to ready what has going to be a challenge for him? tavis smiley: "the new york times" wrote a good piece on the missteps in the sanders campaign. they hit the thing on the head. it was too late, that would be my advice. if you are not known by the african-american community, and you are trying to take on the presumptive nominee, you have got to get out there and campaign. had he gotten out earlier, he might have had a better success with black voters who are going to be key in this election.

the thing about it, john, is he is speaking truth to power on issues that mattered to him, but it is hard to make up for lost time when people just do not know who you are. the bets have already been made, and frankly the breadth and depth of the assessment is a ready behind hillary clinton. mark: less than 30 seconds left, who would be a better candidate in your view, ted cruz or donald trump? tavis smiley: i do not want the clinton campaign to face donald trump. john: why? tavis smiley: they left the train station before the train left the station, and it is such a wildcard. ted cruz is more predictable. john: coming up, clinton versus sanders, the surrogates make their case. ♪ ♪

john: joining us now is someone who's eminently qualified to talk about the latest back-and-forth between bernie sanders and hillary clinton, hillary clinton's national political director joins us. amanda renteria: thank you for having me. mark: a lot of democrats are saying the back-and-forth between your candidate and

senator sanders is not great for the party. amanda renteria: people will look at who is going to get things done, who is talking about the issues, and we hope at the end of the day, the conversation is one we can continue to unify the party when the time is right. john: or to use the phrase crocodile tears, is this bernie sanders and his team going after you this hard, do you take genuine offense, or is this the kind of thing where you think to yourself, he looks like a hypocrite, we will make hay with this? amanda renteria: when you look at a comment like unqualified when you talk about the secretary, you have got to wonder what is going on on the other side, what is going on in the campaign where they reached that level. so we look at it and understand it, but we also recognize that the end of the day, we have got to be talking about the issues people talk about. we have got to make sure that we have got to win this election

against what is happening on the other side of the republican party. so we have to make sure we are bringing people together, staying on message, and for the campaign, it is tough. we know that too. mark: if you've got to focus on the issues, we are delighted to have you on, why doesn't your campaign just ignore anything that has nothing to do with issues? amanda renteria: this has to do with the kind of has to do with the kind of work the secretary has done her entire career. i have been there in the middle of the night and she is asking tough questions about policies, proposals, and all that time she has spent not just in her career helping those proposals, but now as well, we have started the campaign, a lot of people talked about she is spending time on policy, too much time on this issue or that issue, not talking directly to the people. she has spent a lot of that time because she believes in governing. she believes in having policy

solutions, and so something like "not qualified" is a big deal to her, because she is, and it is what she is about. it is bringing solutions, and it is having the kind of proposals, experience. what she brings to the table. john: what started all of this was bernie sanders' interview with the "new york daily news" editorial board where he entered a variety of questions, some on foreign policy, some on issues. if asked if hillary clinton was qualified, she said the interview he gave raised a lot of questions. what questions were raised by the interview senator sanders gave with the ed board? amanda renteria: when you are talking about what your going to do for the country and you have no policy of attack on how to do it, that is a big question. throughout the campaign, we have talked about, it is not just saying free college tuition, how are you going to do it? it is not just breaking up the banks. how are you going to do it?

certainly, the secretary, whenever hillary clinton is asked about her proposals, people do dive in and go deep, and she has answers, and that is something on a different amount than senator sanders. she has given a lot of thought to the proposal she has put out and it gives experience and what she can bring to the white house, visions for our country. so there is a difference, we have put out, she has put out a lot of time in her proposals and how she will get things done. i think both candidates, senator sanders cannot answer them, and is important for people to know. mark: what bernie sanders make a good vice president? amanda renteria: we've got to lecture we are winning the primary, here in new york, ready to go, taking one contest at a time. mark: would you expect there is any reason to think this will

not go until june, bernie sanders will be struggling with a lot of money? amanda renteria: if you like it will go a while. we are planning for that. we want to make sure we win by big numbers in new york, we are try to make your we get to all the different boroughs. at the end of the day, we need a plan, we have said this from the beginning. we have always had a plan. last time i was with you, it was exactly what i said. we need to make sure we are in it to the end, try for every single delegate out there. we feel confident we'll have the pledged delegates, popular vote, and the excitement around the country. john: yes or no, senator sanders qualified or not? amanda renteria: senator sanders

has brought a lot of issues to the table, and at the end of the day, we would not a senator sanders is not qualified. that has never been with this campaign -- what this campaign has said, what the secretary has said, i don't think any of us would say that. john: joining us now from washington on the other side, another qualified individual, senior advisor to bernie sanders, tad devine. is he basically keying off of a new super headline that said secretary clinton said he was not qualified to be president? we are questioning whether he was qualified to be president. should we actually have said that in the interview? is the sense that she is questioning his qualification? tad devine: it certainly is, hearing amanda's answer. hillary clinton had three opportunities to answer a single question, does she believe bernie sanders is qualified to be president with joe scarborough. matt lauer, and we have the interview from him tomorrow, he was asking her a straightforward question. amanda just gave the house answer, a simple question, is he qualified? they decided after wisconsin that they were going to run a negative strategy.

they were going to disqualify bernie sanders, they were going to defeat him and they worry about putting the party back together. the disqualify strategy, the way they are going to carry it out through surrogates attacking bernie on a broad range of issues from guns to foreign policy to the secretary refusing to answer questions about his qualifications. three or four times yesterday, he was saying bernie in the "newsday" editorial, he was wandering, he was meandering, he did not seem to understand was going on. we understand what is going on with their campaign. they are trying to question his capacity to be president of the united states. they are trying to say he does not, he's not qualified to be president of the united states by refusing to answer that question. clearly you, we will not go into new york unless they run that. they think he is from vermont, a small state, he cannot handle the rough-and-tumble politics of

the new york primary. but we will find out in the next several days who can handle it and who can't. mark: one candidate is saying the other candidate is not qualified, the other is saying it is up to the voters. which is worse? tad devine: i will tell you, mark, the decision of the clinton campaign to launch a negative campaign against us is the worst decision. ok, that is what is worst. mark: you are not responding to i asked you. you are taking great umbrage to say whether he is qualified, your candidate is not. that would seem to be more divisive. or negative. tad devine: sure, listen, bernie is reacting to an attack, which they launched against him and qualifications to be president of the united states. these guys want to do have an attack, they want to do have an opportunity to go against him and be hard but subtle.

i would to law school a long time ago, and hillary clinton learned the same thing i did in law school, how to answer a question without saying the words, ok? they don't say the word qualified. we know exactly what they are doing. we would love to have a debate on the big issues, a rigged economy held in place by corrupt finances, that is the fundamental issue in this campaign. we look forward to that debate. john: your colleague jeff weaver said hillary clinton made deals with the devil. who is that? tad devine: it was a colorful way that jeff expressed the fact that hillary could do is relying on a corrupt system of campaign finance to fund her campaign. the super pac's that are raising tens of millions of dollars on her behalf, and the millions of dollars in the super tuesday states to bump up delegate totals are a part of that system. that is the reference jeff is making. they are relying on bundlers.

they have a dark money super pac. we have no idea where that comes from. published reports have said they raised over $25 million. we have no idea where that money came from. i think that is what jeff was referring to, the corrupt system of campaign finance owing those special interests when you get elected to office, and he is right in that regard. mark: up next, a familiar new york voice kicks off the presidential subway series. ♪ ♪

john: the next stop is the subway. if you want to convince new york voters you're just like them, you need to ride the train.

we got them on a big apple scandal, somewhere in between the cab, but there was only one man to call on to put this on perspective, the voice of the new york subway system, our man and colleague, bloomberg radio host, charlie pellet. charlie: ah, the new york city subway, a hyper-fast labyrinth of 24 hour claustrophobic democracy, everyone together, every passenger equal. trust me, i have guided millions of subterranean souls for years. stand clear of closing doors, please. ladies and gentlemen, thank you for riding with mta new york city transit. in a way, it is like running the government, you need to be quick and decisive, but you need to know where you are going. it is that simple.

some of us who have circled the city and these tectonic tubes for decades, we may forget now and then exactly how it works. >> how do you ride the subway today? charlie: that is why every passenger needs the golden ticket to ride this borrowed bullet train, a metro card, even if sometimes we need a little bit of practice. not too slow. almost, here, let it show you. just so you know, it is this easy, coffee in your left hand, metro card in your right hand, one quick simple swipe. there are no tokens, but here is how it goes. and i am in! the next stop is april 19, the new york primary. the city may not extend a red carpet to every candidate. well, that is rough. as a token of goodwill, let me

give the presidential candidates passing through this metropolis one final piece of advice. just remember, courtesy is contagious. stand clear of the negative attacks, please. ♪

>> a special project in iraq. >> and creating the perfect eye pleasing dish. >> let's go meet the editor. david: you have a double issue coming out locust on design. how did this come about? bought bloomberg business week in 2009, we