john: i'm john heilemann. mark: and i'm mark halperin. with all due respect to verizon, i'm pretty sure you can hear bernie now. ♪ mark: on the show tonight a trump family sitcom. but first, some action and drama, with less than a week to go to the new york binary. the front-runners in both parties, hillary clinton and

donald trump, hold commanding lead not just an empire state, but other eastern states up to vote after new york. both parties are still struggling to unify their fractured party before the convention. tonight, we start by looking at the pair of front wars starting with the democrats. new polls from quinnipiac university and emerson college today show hillary clinton leading bernie sanders in new york, 58-36 in maryland, and 49-43 in maryland. and a medieval of the clinton-sanders debate in brooklyn, tensions are quite high between the two democrats and their camps on issues of are very important to the left. such as guns, wall street, and fracking. today, sanders picked up his first endorsement from a colleague in oregon.

and he campaigned, picketing communications giant verizon. john, how was hillary clinton doing in her attempt to bring the left into work camp, while she continues to battle bernie sanders? john: there are a couple different less. there is the activist, feel the bern -- i don't think she is doing well according to them. she gave a strong speech there today, appealing to african-americans. the left she has done well with, she has continued to do well with very but she shores up with those groups. i think she will do well with those in new york. mark: there are a lot of bernie sanders supporters who speak despairingly of hillary clinton. i'm not sure she needs them in the general election.

these are people who are new to the process. it may not require getting them. but i think people understand that simultaneously, when and if she vanquishes bernie sanders, she needs to do something for the people on the left, and moved to center. but her greatest gift would be if donald trump or ted cruz of the republican nominees, that will bring a lot of democrats home from the left. john: she needs of those votes. millennials, in big numbers, and a big percentage of them, was a part of how he was able to win. she is going to need those people. she does not mean the stories of how the people in the democratic party will stay with him. it is possible trump will bring new people out in november if he is the nominee. mark: i see sanders supporters all the time who did not vote for barack obama. there are new people. john: for some of these people it is the first time they go. now to the republicans, trump's polling margins are just as hefty as clinton's. in new york here, and also in connecticut, which could trigger winner take all scenarios for collecting delegates in those states. he has a more than 24% lead over ted cruz and john kasich in maryland. it went there, clinching the nomination before the summer. trump has hired wiley, who previously worked for the scott walker campaign.

he also hired a new political director. yet for all of that, he spoke openly and bitterly with party leaders over the delegate selection process. mark, how was trump doing in the battle to bring the establishment into his camp? mark: today, as a snapshot, not so well. the things i hear about rick wiley being hired, he is not

doing well. how dare he? how disappointing, he is doing this for all the wrong reasons, even for people who like him. at the republican national committee by his own choice, they think it will be fine if he wins the nomination. but there is still obviously a strong anti-, never trump movement. it now seems laughable when

using stories that say we hate ted cruz so much, maybe trump is better. trump has a long way to go to unify his party. john: there is a difference between -- people have written many stories, that bringing paul and rick wiley, that trump is trying to professionalize his campaign. it could be a sign of maturity on his part. on the other hand, it has nothing to do with the broader question of getting mainstream republicans, or the

establishment, another inside game, of campaign consultants, has nothing to do with them. mark: since chris christie, there has not been an endorsement like that. ted cruz has gotten virtually no endorsements in wisconsin. john: the question is not will or could. he could do all those things. but as i said at the very beginning of my rather too long answer, he is undisciplined at sticking to what could be useful messages. the question is whether he is able to do those things, even if they are available to him. mark: i think he will ask her what she did as secretary of state. a lot of democrats struggled to answer that on her behalf. john: the danger, she does know a lot more about foreign policy

than he does. when we come back, ted cruz's ballet to woo the republican donor class. ♪ ♪

john: ted cruz's campaign has been working on their master plan, working on a third ballot win at the republican national convention in cleveland this summer. to pull it off, one of the people cruz is courting, is the republican donor class, who was not convinced cruz is the only alternative to trump as the nominee. if he does not get this on the first ballot, will this money gentry will be open to cruz on the back ballot? mark: it is up for debate, he does well in fancy all, but his public performance changes dramatically. he had some success in chicago, l.a., francis, but if we get to cleveland and it is clear that trump will get the nomination, unless cruz is the first race of

the moneyed class, he will get a lot. it could be decisive in his winning nomination. john: a dirty little secret about ted cruz. mark: princeton and harvard's ted cruz, whose wife works for goldman sachs. john: it shows you he has a certain cultural affinity for these people that work at these most paradigmatic institutions of the moneyed class. the other thing, the other dirty little secret, in this town of new york city, you go to around two people who work in finance, a lot of people know donald trump, and a lot of people don't

hate them but they don't particularly like him. mark: there is another group of the moneyed class huge in cleveland, lobbyists. they will be all over the place, faced with the choice of trump or cruz could well swing dramatically to cruz. they could help create a dynamic in cleveland, if it comes to

that, time to vote for cruz, and not risk from winning. john: you don't hear trump talking like the old, antiestablishment trump of old, the jerk he was. he is not taking the hammer and cudgel against those groups. mark: it was a full house family-style, when donald trump appeared on stage with his wife and his four children. yet nice words to say about what it was like to grow up trump. >> i think i was always a very good father. my children have done a good job, and will continue to do a good job. >> he is an amazing father, a great human being, and amazing dealmaker. he has all his so much love for us and our entire family.

he is on my best friends in the entire world. >> eyewitness these incredible female role models he has employed in the highest positions of the trump organization. it is a testament to the fact that he believes in inspiring and empowering women. he always taught me that there was not anything i could not do, if i set my mind to it. >> my father, since i have been a little girl, has inspired me, and had so much faith in me to be the best person i can become

of the best women i can be. >> if they attack him, he will attack back. >> i have never had a glass of alcohol, and yet i own one of the biggest wineries. it is a crazy thing. my brother was so instrumental in shaping this. i don't know what the outcome would have been. when my children were growing up, even when he did not know what drinking was, i said no alcohol, no cigarettes, and no drugs. >> is that something you remember distinctly growing up? >> absolutely. every morning, every day of our life. >> every morning? >> absolutely. mark: trump has appeared another town halls.

everyone i know who watched last night was really impressed with trump, stylistically. what you think that was? john: i watched last night, and i was impressed. mark: when i said everyone i knew, i was including you. john: he was a normal candidate, that is the most striking thing stretches when he could've talked, and he chose not to, and mark: every day behaving like a normal person is a good day for him. john: "washington post," fact checkers have been handing out more pinocchio's at the gift shop. they called bernie sanders claim that he visited a facility in vermont, and knocked down hillary clinton's insinuation of the amount of vermont guns used in new york. there is already a debunked claim on the show on monday that the sanders household has released tax returns for several years. there are plenty of documented, misleading statements from trump and the other republicans as well, but we can't list them, because the show is only an hour long or it a lot is pinocchio's, do any of these matter for 2016? mark: i love fact checking. i think for the most part, the major organizations do a good job. the problem, there is so much

spin and effort made to knocked down, and so many pinocchios, and this is my criticism of thepinocchio-bestowers, it becomes a foul instead of an infraction. john: they try to differentiate between a foul and an infraction. mark: a lie about big thing, versus a little lie about a little thing. john: you could tell a smaller lie about an important thing that may may be more politically consequential. and there is also the other thing we have done many times, which is our news cycle moves so fast. the combination of the white noise element you have cited, and the speed at which this progresses, it is hard for any of these things to really take hold, and have political consequence and matter in the old way that the fact checkers, that used to be called newspapers, used to exist. mark: three-dimensional pinocchios. coming up, we travel downtown where bernie sanders is holding a rock concert/rally, with a bunch of celebrities tonight.

we will check down there after a word from our sponsors. ♪

♪ mark: so from where we sit in

the studio, you will see sanders holding a star-studded rally, including the band "vampire weekend," legend spike, and tim robbins, among many others. before those stars the stage, we're joined by a star reporter, who is in the -- are you in the park or outside it? reporter: i think we are technically in the park, a sidewalk behind the barriers that have been that up, where there are working on letting people in. mark: this is an important rally politically, barack obama did a huge rally there before the white house area how much does the sanders campaign think this is an the heart of the village, a symbolic event, or a run-of-the-mill rally? reporter: i think this is very symbolically important for the sanders campaign. it is one of three major rallies they have planned for the boroughs.

this is one they have been working on for weeks, which is a much longer period of time. this is in hillary's adopted hometown, if you will. we saw them shift away from bernie sanders of the course of the past couple of days. i'm interested to see whether or not this is something that six around and resonates, and gives people a reason to give him another look in the new york primary. john: we felt the raise it shift away from sanders of the last couple of days. in what ways, and why? kasie: john, the polling, is showing clinton's lead is more durable than some of these other states where sanders has competed and closed the race aggressively in the final couple of days. that is what clinton people are telling me privately, behind the scenes. you are also feeling them, a

little more on the defensive, in that they are talking about things going forward, superdelegates, handling potentially taking the convention. you are hearing an edge in the voices both of the candidates, the spouses, and the people around him, just leave her, his campaign manager, in particular. there is generally a sense of movement away from, we are writing this momentum, to actually running into knives from the clinton campaign. it looks as though things are moving quite the way they initially were when they came here to new york a few days ago. mark: so we are about 24 hours away from the debate. i don't think sanders can say he easily won the debate, he had some rough times, and she did better. in a normal campaign, a candidate would really be preparing and focusing, saying this is my big chance, one-on-one in new york, i can break there. and after the debate he is leaving for rome in a couple days. as he prepared for this debate, psychologically, saying, i will take her down, or not?

kasie: when you ask who would be responsible for helping him do that, i would say i am hoping someone is preparing them for the debate. there is no time that is different from what it was in the past. pretty classic sanders, giving a speech tomorrow to al sharpton's group in the city. he has it on his agenda, which is a little unusual for a debate day. and you are right, whether it is a typical might for him, and he needs to clean things up and push forward, he will be in the air on his way to rome. he will be campaigning out in the streets of new york, he will be on an airplane, closed to the

press. there may be vatican correspondence, may be seeing a glimpse of the pope. but probably not. it is not 100% clear exactly how this will be in and out of rome in under 40 hours. but some critical hours ahead of tuesday. john: we were at first incredulous about the trip to rome, and then baffled by it. they asked the campaign manager, and it was not explained to their satisfaction. i don't understand it, not whether it was a good or bad thing to do, but politically, a risk he is taking. do you understand, why it would happen for those reasons? why is he taking this risk? kasie: so far, all systems are go. they would have to put the stock to a lot of things, it is pretty far down the court at this point.

john, this is something that bernie sanders himself, really wants to do. if you think about where he was a year ago, invitations from the vatican or their associated groups, not directly from the pope, but in an odd, theological arm, that is not something he would have the opportunity to do before. he was a senator from vermont, not necessarily having the press that he has now. this will elevate him. a couple other international heads of state are speaking of this conference, from south america. it is putting him on a playing field, much elevated from the one he was able to play on before. that is something that he personally is invested in, and we have seen not just in this case, but over the course of the last few months, as bernie sanders gets used to the idea he was a plausible, democratic nominee, that this could really

go his way, i don't think the vatican trip is the only area we have seen the impact on the candidate. mark: the chess players come of the dog walkers, the baby strollers, and the dope dealers. got to watch that park. thank you, very much. in just a moment, we are going to talk more about the democratic race here in new york. two of the best in the biz, know the city very well. ♪

♪ john: if you think work in politics is more tired than revolution, it will be politicized. we have heard it all, but the

downtown tribes that populate your city, a downtown area where bernie sanders will host a huge, mega-rally this evening. there are not tired of hearing about revolutions. we send our men to texturize the setting that has immortalized new york's most ambitious dreamers. reporter: washington square park is headquarters, historically, of outsiders. i know this park pretty well. i lived on it. right there, at the corner of 5th avenue, next to the monument. >> bernie sanders, all day. >> the park has been the center of protest, civil rights, affirmative action, the war in vietnam. it is appropriate that bernie sanders should come to his spiritual home, i would they.

>> you guys are more than welcome to wait here, as well. >> 5:00 we get in, 7:00, the whole thing will start. >> i really want to see bernie sanders up close. >> we have really diehard people who have come really, really early. >> i came last night, and was second in line. >> i watched as the sky, as the sun got brighter. i only see bernie sanders walking off to the right, so hopefully, he will come toward

me. i know obama in 2008 got around 20,000 people here. i hope bernie exceeds that. >> i love new york. >> the park is a kind of headquarters, a headquarters of social change. there are marijuana sellers here in the park. there are people who are down and out, people playing their guitar like bob dylan, and they

are not very good at all. around washington square park is in the better gold to everything washington has been. it is one of the few gathering laces in this neighborhood of gatherers. john: our next guest are not revolutionaries, a new can of peanut butter and jelly. we have them on the show last week to talk about the empire state primary. we are now going back for seconds. we have the new york post columnist john podhoretz, and adam nagourney. most vivid memory? go. >> i was about seven years old, and saw somebody having an acid trip right in front of me, as i was walking with a family friend. mark: keep in mind, the statute of limitations. john: but go ahead, nagourney, what is your favorite washington square memory? adam: being there to or three nights after the collapse of the world trade center, and seeing people looking for lost relatives. it was obvious at that point, that people were gone, and how much washington square park is a community center. but i lived two blocks away from their. plus, the pot dealers. mark: let's talk about the democratic race. at last we talk on the contest was just underway. campaigning here is different from other places, for reasons well-known and we talked about. you have a guy from brooklyn, and a woman who was senator in here. do you believe in conventional wisdom, that she is a better competitor here, with an idea of

how to campaign better here. john p: i think she appears to be doing a lot better here than she was over the past months, which of course makes sense. if she did not have a feel for new york politics, having run and one here twice, she ought to hang it up and go home. i don't know whether he is not particularly adept. 40% or so of the boat is here in the city. mark: sanders has this big, what they hope to be iconic event tonight. he went to coney island, his old

home in brooklyn, but has not seem to do what is required, in campaigning here, which is to create moments. adam: my sense of him is that a lot of people, as we all know, come to new york thinking, we have done iowa, we have done

this before, and he is thinking i came from here, so i know how it is played. my sense is that he is trying to find his sea legs. it may be harder for him because he is coming in with the assumption, hey, i am a new yorker, i know this city better. i guess he is going to the vatican tomorrow. john p: i want to come back to that in a moment. it seems to me that the tensions between these campaigns has escalated in the past days. they got to new york and the gloves which had more or less been on, throughout the democratic nomination, sort of which has always been more intense in new york i think, than any place else. john p: the weird moments in new york have been on the republican side. you have john kasich going to a hasidic neighborhood in new

york, misunderstanding which sect he was going to, and he went to a non-zionist sect, and he lectured how the passover dinner was related to jesus'birth. that was a fake, bad moment. that is the type of bad tabloid moment that has gone on. ted cruz having trouble in the bronx. they are not having trouble with those, either sanders or hillary. john: we're going to take a break, because when you start talking about politics, we need to move that along. we will talk more about that topic, and more deeply when we get back. ♪

♪ mark: back with the bicoastal genius, adam nagourney of the "new york times," joining us, and john podhoretz. john, as viewers and followers of his know, he is against donald trump. what gives you the most hope? john p: it is procedural, ted cruz winning all these backdoor deals and out winning trump on the delegate selection, is perfectly legitimate, if you are watching just the outward campaign. you would say, cruz has done absolutely nothing to build on his victory in wisconsin.

in fact, his numbers in new york seem to be going down and that about. the polling in these subsequent states is not looking good for cruz, and looking pretty good for trump. so that stop trump movement is entirely a backdoor movement until may, when we shift back to the midwest and to the west for the last states. mark: adam, the california primaries six weeks away. is there any feeling out there, it has been some candidate

activity, but -- adam: as you know, this is not a state where you get primaries a lot. they are staying at the tail end of everything. but there is a lot of interest and excitement. i have seen sanders protesters in front of the streets at cnn, trump appointed a statewide campaign director, is coming here in two weeks. there is a lot of interest. it is a very interesting state.

there is a sense, and i will refer to you guys, that this state could be determinate in they don't understand what those 53 congressional districts can do. talk about that a little bit. adam: first of all, it is a minority party. they have less than, i believe, independent registered voters. it is diminishing influence, they don't control the governors or the house. it used to be the center of attention. right now, in this state, i think probably like new york, it is a congressional district -- which means, trump is going to do very well, and win delegates. i cannot see him sweeping the whole state. there are parts of the state where cruz is doing very well, congressional districts, again. so there will be mixed results. my guess now, trump is the overall popular vote. we will come out with a significant number of delegates, but not a sweep like they will get in new york. john p: if that is the result, then cruz is in a lot of trouble. if cruz can't build -- if the early part of may and june is still trump territory, and he is closer to a majority than cruz is, five weeks before the convention, assuming he does not

get the specified number of delegates -- cruz will not look like a winner, not a guide to turn to in stead of tron. adam: you said a second ago, things are going well for cruz. given the state of where your party is right now, how does that set up for going to cleveland. john: how well is that going to go down in the party? john p: it would be a lot worse if ted cruz were jeb bush doing this. he comes into the race with his own antiestablishment credentials.

he has demonstrated competency in his candidacy, and trump's incompetence at managing the rules of the republican party belies his claim that he is the guy coming from the outside to reform american politics. that said, if you don't win, you don't win. if trump wins, and keeps winning more safe, and cruz is not winning states, i don't know what type of argument that is. that is an argument for throwing the whole thing out, saying now we have four days to find the best person to run against hillary, and it does not look like it is either of you guys. not go with the guy that has less than the guy in the lead. it signifies nothing. worse than nothing. a year and a month, or a year and two months of campaigning will have ended in failure for everyone. mark: donald trump, this is his first new york primary as a candidate, how well is he doing fitting in is a candidate? adam: it looks like he is doing well in terms of fitting into the culture of the state. i have not seen them create any big moments yet, but maybe he

does not need to. he seems to be a better fit for the state than cruz or kasich. he has been involved in the media culture of new york since the 80's, and has been close to the gossip columnists and political reporters. he knows how the place works. as we talked about before, it is much different than it was, but there are similarities. he knows the dynamics and politics of the state, he is played that well, and it shows. john p: he has also playing the world largest, unforced error. cruz saying he represents new york values, that was poor

short-term and long-term thinking. to say he has new york values, new york values are bad, he has gone down in the polls. mark: thank you, both. coming up, former ted cruz spokesman tyler joins us more for more on the public in race, after this. if you're watching us in washington dc, you can watch us on the radio at 99.1 fm. we will be right back. ♪

♪ mark: joining us now to talk more about where the

presidential race stands on the republican side, rick tyler, an analyst for msnbc. he joins us from the washington bureau. rick, a big debate in the party is whether or not the way the nominee is picked is democratic, responsive to the will of the voters, etc.. leaving aside your affinity for ted cruz, do you think it is time to look at the process for the next cycle, and see a more direct correlation to the number of votes you get a number of delegates, or not? rick: as you know, each convention they try to fix the problems the last convention, and i suspect that will go on forever. there is a correlation between the votes and the delegates, by and large. most of the delegates on the first ballot will be valid. after that, it gets much looser. by the third ballot it is only 80%. mark: but the earlier part of

the process is the selection of the delegates. donald trump, in colorado, those delegates are not being selected by the republican party of colorado, they are being selected by insiders. should there be a bigger correlation between grassroots voters, and who gets to go to cleveland? rick: that is up to colorado. they have done what they have done, very similarly in the past. other states choose to do it differently. that is essentially a form of federalism. the states decide how they will choose their own delegates. some like the party to have more control over the delegates. in other words, if you are not a member of the republican party, why should outsiders decide were candidate should be? the other side says we should have a more open, democratic process open to everybody. we have a hybrid. we have a mix in between,

colorado decide one way, new york and way, california another. it will be up to the state. but i don't wanted to go through the republican national committee through some edict to go all one way are all another way. it is fine to choose to do with the way they want to do it. john: i want you to put aside your affinity not just for senator cruz, but put aside the merits in this case. if not a politically powerful argument to make, that the system is rigged? the argument trump is making right now, given the populist energy in the party, things that have animated so many republican voters this cycle, is that not a potent political message trump is delivering right now? rick: it can be a powerful political argument, but it is also dishonest area when he is saying, is that it is rigged. he thinks people are changing the rules as they go along, and that is not happening. it is a little like watching football with someone who has never played the sport. on one side, you have a

pro-football team, and then he fumbled the ball, and complains that the referees are against them. he meant that throw it to his own team member, the intercepted it, they got a touchdown, oh, that is unfair. and this just goes on and on and on. there are rules. john: if you can see that it is a politically powerful argument, what is the counter argument to appeal to process, which is presumably what ted cruz is trying to do right now, what is that argument going to be for him that counters what trump is saying for him, that has a visceral, powerful response to voters?

rick: do we really want to have the largest states decide who gets to be the nominee? in the same way george w. bush lost the popular vote to al gore, and a lot of people had to come to learn about the electoral college, and some people do not like the electoral college. some people want a straight up and down popular vote. i do not agree with that. some larger states will have too much of a say in the process, and others will not have a say. you get bonus delegates for going later, winner take all if you go later, or a state that continually elects republicans. that is power to the states, and gives power to people to organize, and power to the grassroots. mark: thank you very much, we will be right back. ♪

♪ >> what you doing tonight? mark: going to see the big dog walk, and going to see tim robbins. john: as always, we have much, much, much more reporting online, all the latest on the things going on in 2016, in the presidential race. coming up on "bloomberg west," emily chang. paul manifold will be here tomorrow. until then, sayonara. ♪

♪ is thursday, the of april. i am rishaad salamat. this is "trending business". ♪ right, visiting singapore, sydney, and tokyo this hour. pacific stocks extending its rally. the singapore dollar following the