from our studios in new york city, this is "charlie rose." good evening. i'm david axelrod, filling in for charlie rose. the eyes of the political world are on new york tonight. both donald trump and hillary clinton currently hold double-digit leads in contests that could give us new clues as to how this long and unexpected primary season may end. your to shed some light on this is a seasoned panel of observers. glenn thrush of politico and host of the off message podcast. alex burns of the new york

times, and alex wagner. she is an nbc analyst and correspondent on showtime's "the circus." welcome to all of you. what better place to have a circus than the biggest big top of all, new york. you, glenn, have been around this town for a long time. you cut your teeth as a reporter here. why is it so crazy? glenn: on the democratic side, it is a strangely drama-less primary in terms of the action on the ground. sanders is drawing egg crowds. but he doesn't seem to the closing the gap. i think the issue is watching the sanders campaign collide with the tabloid press has been the big show. hillary i think really knows how to handle herself. i was around in 2000 and 2001 when she learned to master the tabloid folks. watching bernie sanders, who has

fide-nessng his bona as a james madison guy. the burlington press isn't quite as active as the new york tabloids. do you get the sense that she feels like, now you are on my court? glenn: i don't think these are great times for the clinton campaign at the moment. it is a weird suspended animation. on. as you know, having worked with you in 2008 when you would call us and remind us what the delegate counts were, as hillary was winning primary after primary, she has the numbers very much on her side, but he's trying the big crowds and garnering a lot of excitement. he has this illusion of momentum even though he's down by 12 to 14 points. i think there is a sense of annoyance, of anxiety, and i

think she wants to close it out. is thethere illusion of momentum and the mass of delegates. how big is new york for bernie sanders? >> huge. i think the illusion of momentum is going to be enormously important for him because the delegate count is so daunting to give he doesn't have this sense that he's a locomotive picking up steam, then why are you in this race anyway? you would need to win delegates by a staggering margin. if he were able to close this thing into the mid-to low single digits, that would lead a lot of people to say, maybe the voters aren't ready to be done with this yet. this is as true for the republicans as it is for the democrats. in order for a case to be made against the front runner, you need the challenger to do really well. new york, california, new

jersey, those are all states that favor the current leaders. david: alex, you've patrolled the progressive precincts as it were. why is it that bernie sanders has made so little inroads into the minority communities? alex w.: i spend time with bernie sanders in the south and middle of the country. you talk to minority voters who are supporting clinton, they know the clintons, they think clinton is a realist, and hillary clinton served the barack obama as secretary of state. she has bear-hugged him throughout the season. that matters to them. i asked sanders, does it matter to you, is it frustrating, that the message doesn't seem to be resonating with minority voters? he got really angry. he was not happy about that. his wife said, yes.

in large part because sanders sees himself as a steward of economic policies that would help minority americans and they are not hearing it. glenn is right to point out new york as a petri dish for many aspects of this campaign. one of the most, i think the worst pieces of press bernie sanders has gotten in the last month is the interview he did with the "new york daily news." that paper is read by a lot of lower income minority new yorkers. the "new york daily news" endorsed hillary clinton and called bernie sanders a fantasist. i think a big factor with sanders is, that argument about economic inequality, african-american voters talk about poverty. i think his answers during the debate where he talked about -- hillary was talking about 450 years, the legacy of inequality

and prejudice, and talking about issues having to do specifically with race-based wretchedness, and he was talking about these more antiseptic issues of income inequality. that is the tone that african-american voters are turned off by. david: when the message he is would bebout things better, unions have more power, that nostalgia for new deal liberalism may resonate with voters in the midwest. things were not that great for black americans in the 1950's. this notion that we were all so much better off, not for a lot of people. glenn: there's also a strong identification with this president who is symbolic of progress in a very big way. and bernie sanders has not always been on board with the

president. central to his messages, things have gotten so bad. the system is totally rigged. well the president is a democrat and an african-american democrat. for black voters, that distinction is not lost. david: in the last week, it seems to me that he's tuned up his rhetoric in many ways. a lot of it focuses on the record as it relates to racial progress during the clinton years, so the crime bill, which he voted for, but also the welfare reform bill. , tohat an effective tactic attack the bill clinton record as it were? alex w.: i think the crime bill matters with younger voters. bill clinton was pulled into a shouting match with black lives matter protesters last week. that is a fired up group of

young folks who think about the 1994 crime bill and see it as a foundational aspect for the mass incarceration state. if bernie sanders is trying to bring more minority voters in, you made the point that a lot of younger voters are not as engaged, aligning himself with a tank of the black lives matter movement, which is criticism of the 1994 crime bill as a wise move. david: what about that outburst of president clinton's? my observation has been, i saw him in 2012. he was probably the most effective surrogate that barack obama had in the 2012 election. there's only one candidate for whom he's not a great surrogate. why is that? colleague did a good story on this dynamic. he was carrying around little sheets of paper, color

photocopies, showing charts of growth during the clinton administration. clinton isg, what running for president here? i think that has accentuated itself. we wrote a story where we quoted charlie wrangle from harlem, saying, why is he talking so much about himself? i think that is your occupational hazard dealing with bill clinton. alex b.: amazing thing to say. i think that in some ways, if you think back to the reaction of bill clinton's outburst, it is almost priced in that this guy is going to wander off the reservation, get into fights with protesters. his confrontation with black lives matter was so much worse than that famous, this whole thing is the biggest fairy tale i've ever seen, episode in 2008. it was such a shock that this guy was undermining this.

right.: i think you are that he is priced into a certain degree. he has been more disciplined. david: on this issue of sanders reaching into the black community, he reached out for a an adevel aide to produce for him in the closing days of this new york primary to try and reach the african-american votes. spike lee did a spot for him. i want you guys to look at that. >> people of color have a deeply vested interest in what bernie sanders brings to us in this election. >> michael brown, sandra bland, and my father. >> they are not just trending topics. these are mothers and fathers, sons and daughters. >> bernie sanders sees all of me. he sees all of you. he sees us as a whole people, as a whole country.

>> i'm bernie sanders and i approved this message. david: alex, will that have a major impact on this race? alex w.: i think hillary has been going around the country the so-called mothers of the --ement, a lot of hope ryan high mothers whose children have been felled by gun violence. i'm not sure that at this stage it makes a great deal of difference for sanders to get in that pool. my question for this whole season is, does the high-profile , nontraditional endorsement matter? the fact that bernie sanders has spiked lee making ads, the fact that hillary clinton has lena dunham and amy schumer on her side. i feel like there's a line in the sand among young voters or people who could be swayed. they have their sort of allegiance at this point. i was joking about the

2008 campaign. the quality of the opposition really matters. i think sanders folks have been slow on this. the night that he pivoted to new york, giving his "i'm coming to new york for you, hillary" speech, he did it from wyoming. he's won a majority of most of in whitest victories areas. today, he said something that might come back to want him -- to haunt him, about hillary clinton cleaning up in these southern primaries. sort of in a derogatory way. i've gotten six e-mails from the clinton people on this. obviously you need to do something in new york city, but there are big stretches of the state, the suburbs, where they look a lot more like the places that he has typically been winning. you see this on the republican

side too. ted cruz and john kasich have been trying to take the fight to donald trump. it is awfully hard to break through in a city of this size that is this expensive to campaign in. sanders is spending millions on new york city television. david: he has millions of dollars to spend, which has kept him in this race. one thing that hasn't been noted is the advantage he sat in spending. you are right. this is a very difficult market. upstate, he is running even. city, the suburbs and the he should be running stronger. glenn: if you look at the map in michigan, every precinct that is not a core democratic precinct, every rural area, he was winning massively. david: and you've cut areas that have been adversely affected by the changes in the economy over

the years. glenn: two alex's point, i think to a certain extent, this is where the math does matter. he's making a larger argument. he can't do this without superdelegates. disadvantage to hillary on superdelegates. it is more important for bernie sanders to close the gap and improve his numbers with african-americans. part of the reason he's putting his resources downstate is to make the argument that he is not a whites only candidate. they run aink remarkable campaign. nobody would have predicted that bernie sanders would be where he is. but time is getting short. we talk about closing the gap. it seems to me he has to open a cap and start winning places. if he comes out of here with a participation ribbon, -- alex w.: they do give those in

brooklyn. david, you know this as well. new york state is a closed primaries. bernie sanders does much better voteindependents can in the primary. unless you are an organized registered democrat, you are not voting in this primary. bernie sanders had 27,000 people in greenwich village, not the west village, glenn. you know new york. there's a question how many of those folks are going to be able to vote in the primary. there are seven more closed primaries coming up on the calendar. he gets the big crowds, but what are the vote numbers? david: just as hillary clinton is accustomed to the new york template culture, you would have to say donald trump has been part of that for his whole adult life. is he at an advantage in this town? interesting you would

say he has an adult life. in "bonfire of the vanities." it has given him the luxury to not be here to some extent. he has done a lot of his campaigning out of the state. what is the latest numbers on kasich? has he cracked 20%? trump has to hit that 50% threshold. he's done some events here. i think the one thing that it has done for him is just -- it is ironic that it has given him the ability to not actually be here. alex b.: the spectacle of being confronted by protests of a kind that he has not seen previously. can you imagine donald trump holding a rally? david: the one in downtown chicago didn't go well. alex b.: in that vein, i think a lot of us would have expected massive protests outside trump

tower this week. he's not even in town. from a media perspective, that is a shame. ♪

david: we've talked about the h on the democratic side and the fact that bernie sanders appears to have momentum and is behind and that is a source of frustration to his supporters. sort of the opposite situation on the republican side, where

donald trump is ahead, and he appears poised to have a pretty big victory here and in some of the states coming up the following week in the northeast, and yet all the speculation is that he may not make it. so that has given rise to this whole mantra of his that the system is being rigged. run down the math of this for us. if trump or to really run the table in new york, somehow you are within 400 of that magic total. on the last a of voting in new jersey, you have over 400 delegates in the total. you have this lineup of states all throughout may, starting with indiana, running through south dakota, montana. these are ted cruz kind of states. you have a pretty predictable coming and going of the tide in

the republican race. what may matter more than exactly how close to 1237 trump generalwhether his election numbers continue to deteriorate in the way they have. to berty is going to need able to make some kind of moral case for why they are not just ripping the blue ribbon out of the rightful winner's hand. david: when you were out there, alex, for the circus, did you get a chance to talk to some of the trump voters? alex w.: i was not in the trump room. living in new york city and being someone with a parent new york values, i agree with glenn. this is sort of a tailor-made place for donald trump. but the biggest problem we are seeing, alex, is infrastructure. the long game has never been donald trump's strong suit.

i don't know that anybody could have predicted that it would look like we would have a contested convention. what you have seen is donald trump scrambling to bring in veterans, scott walker's campaign chair, people that know how this process works. ford's men at the 1976 convention. cruz has been very involved in the delegate selection process. if trump gets 1235, there is i think a likelihood that senator cruz will be the nominee. david: it seems to me that either donald trump is going to be the nominee on the first ballot, or ted cruz is likely to be the nominee on some subsequent ballots, but it is almost impossible to see him being the nominee on the first ballot and it is hard to see trump going beyond that. if trump gets close, there is

this group of unbound delegates out there, a few hundred of them. can they get enough of them to get over the line? i assume that is what matt forte is concentrating on. alex b.: i think they can. that is a moment where the whole republican leadership has to imagine cleveland in flames and ask, how bad do we want to deny him this nomination just so we can nominate ted cruz? if it were between front and a guy they felt really good about, it might be different. under those circumstances, when trump is flying them down to visit golf courses and giving them free hotel rooms -- alex w.: you can actually give cash to delegates. alex b.: air trump is actually a pretty old plane, but plenty of

gold in it. under those circumstances, it gets tough to see the party steeling itself for the massive rift that would come out of that nomination. david: alex raises a really interesting point. it probably isn't a more hated person among establishment republicans than ted cruz. ted cruz has made a point of going after them. he talkedw weeks ago, about the washington cartel. now they are on his team. so how ironic is that? do you hear when you talk to republicans privately? i guess they are pretty public -- glenn: this is one of the great spectacles. i remember a story about a year ago about ted cruz where some republicans said the only thing popular on capitol hill than ted cruz is a cash bar. lindsey graham, who had just

uncorked on cruz, just holding his nose, what did he say, it was the difference between getting shot and taking poison. david: he meant that in a nice way. glenn: but the notion that ted cruz, one of the wonderful cosmic ironies, the notion that ted cruz would be the presentable mainstream candidate -- by the way, ted cruz has arguably run the best campaign of anybody this year. just that he has scoped out this delegate process better. he, from the beginning, was the most strategic. he understood that if he could command evangelicals in iowa, he could win the first contest. he had a plan from start to finish. he knew all the rules of every state. his top guy is probably

, for those that cover the inside game, considered one of the real rising stars in this constellation. personalking to a cruz the other day about the evangelical vote. they said, look at his liberty speech. it is largely remembered as this jerry falwell thing. they said, the entire second half of the speech was about economics, blue-collar economics and trade. they feel now that they are no longer being challenged from the right eye any candidate, that they can move toward the economic stuff. ruz campaign is in a comfortable situation in states like indiana. alex b.: in retrospect, the amazing strategic innovation of the ted cruz campaign is that the most conservative candidate will probably win the republican primary. when you think back on rubio, jeb, it seems obvious looking back that of course you were not

going to outflank ted cruz with this electorate. the only man who might is a guy who totally defies ideological labels and is running as this third world strongman type of candidate. alex w.: i would bring up your questioning as to whether the establishment would opt for cruz. i hear from establishment republicans, moderate republicans, they would much rather see ted cruz lose in november, because the implications for the party would be much clearer than if it was donald trump at the top of the ticket. david: you have heard conservative republicans say for several cycles, if we just nominated a true conservative, not one of these center-right sort of moderates, john mccain, mitt romney, that we would win because we would mobilize all these voters who have been estranged from voting generally.

cruz gives them a pure test of that. the theory is that if donald trump is the candidate, it won't be clear, and you will have all the factions blaming each other for the loss. if trump loses, and before we leave, i want to get to what that general election would look like. alex b.: that theory of the case totally makes sense on its own internal logic. i do think it presumes a level of self-awareness and honesty that may not entirely exist. you can totally imagine ted cruz gets shellacked in the fall and the narrative from the hard right is, if the bush family hadn't undercut him, if the establishment hadn't betrayed him, and so many republican donors hadn't channeled money to hillary clinton, we could have one bank this thing. david: what is this going to look like? hillary clinton absent ted cruz

and donald trump would be the least popular nominee of a major party since these polls have been taken. in the lowables are 50's, but there's are higher. what doesn't mean when you have candidates on both sides who have very high negatives? glenn: >> you seen the movie reservoir dogs. it will be the most negative. disapproval is more than 65% regularly. there was a metric i had not seen of people who -- would you ever vote for somebody? said no i would never vote for donald trump. these are astronomical numbers.

these are before the democrats have run a single ad against him. i think the name of the game on the clinton side is scorched earth. it's going to be ugly. david: there seems to be more coherence to democrats than republicans. alex b.: that is why i think you will see an interesting phenomenon against truck or cruise that is going to be a parallel track, a campaign of reassurance and trying to give republicans and moderates who wouldn't vote for a democrat or hillary clinton, some kind of permission that makes it ok. just this one time it's ok to go instincts andut go for hillary clinton. a lot of those people who said they would never vote for donald trump, they could just stay home or with the right set of validator's, reassurance, maybe

some percentage of them can be persuaded in the interest of keeping things normal and not too crazy -- [laughter] go with the one that you don't like. what about if ted cruz is the candidate? looking from the clinton side everybody on her campaign would like it to be donald trump. donald trump generates -- he is the biggest garbage truck. the candidate herself -- david: if there was a rational opponent to this. andn: the candidate herself her husband are apprehensive about facing this guy when you have characters like roger stone running around talking about

bodies buried in shallow graves. alex w.: ted cruz does not get the crossover vote that donald trump does. the thing i would say about ted cruz is you will see a lot of attention on the part of paul ryan shoring up the house and senate. there is going to be concerned about the senate and making sure the house margin doesn't get to type. trump you've heard donald talk about the illegitimacy of the process. .hat he is being treated this nomination is being stolen. how do his supporters not walk , if they are a steady dose of that and what promises to be an acrimonious run-up to the convention? alex b.: many are most certainly would. a lot of republicans have made

their peace with ted cruz because he is a predictable candidate who they can communicate with. there is a scenario where nominating ted cruz is worse because the donald trump vote stays home and the moderate or center-right republicans and suburban voters who would have deserted donald trump also desert ted cruz. his floor may be lower. david: what did everyone miss about this? --t did everyone miss about i was dismissive. i thought he would be gone by winter. most people felt the same way. what went wrong in terms of the evaluation of donald trump? there still is this inside the bubble, outside the bubble dynamic and how he is perceived by supporters and people who do not buy into the premise of trump. thinking back to where we were

when he declared there was an assumption among people in new york and washington the rest of the country isn't in on the joke. everyone knows his real estate empire is and as he presents it. the apprentice is a game show. the country and talking to people who support donald trump talk about his business career the way people wall street might talk about warren buffett, michael bloomberg, they think he's one of the amazing entrepreneurs of our time. there was this assumption his campaign was absurd and it persisted so long, nobody decided to pointed out. david: some of the things that he got ridiculed for, the wall, the muslim ban, those resonated with a lot of people in this country. people have a real -- glenn: i've traveled around the

country. i have spent a lot of time in baton rouge. people have a sense of loss. people feel, older white folks feel the country they bought into that they said the pledge of allegiance for doesn't exist to a certain extent and there are any number of factors that have to do with that. one of the things, the presidency -- every four years we perpetuate this allusion the presidency is the most powerful institution in the world and the president controls everything. there is a sense that the world becomes more difficult to control, as the threat of terrorism grows, people have a sense external forces are imposing on the country. the appeal of having someone who says not only will i be a strong

president but the presidency itself and the country itself will reclaim their role is enormously powerful. that is what we missed. that this guy is not just about asserting himself but saying the role of the presidency is going to be one that fits the historical situation. alex w.: you can't underestimate the role of the media landscape. donald trump a reality television star. conflictv and the way is on center stage is an incredibly pervasive conceit in american culture. the culture has changed. donald trump has been serendipitously situated at the nexus. he understands how to deliver a message with authenticity. how to talk with people without using the mainstream media and how to stoke conflict. and offer a thin resolution to that conflict. mexico is going to pay for the

wall, etc. he knows he is not going to be checked on that. checked on it and it doesn't seem to matter. that they feel the same people who are ridiculing donald trump and being disrespectful to donald trump are this day and full of them. basic obvious level the most amazing accomplishment is to have made himself this , thisrdinary wealthy man spirit animal of the white working class. i think you are right. when they see him saying this is national security plan, i will be the douglas macarthur of this -- i will find the douglas macarthur and put him in charge. his supporters have seen the move. -- the movie. they remember that as a better

time. why are we laughing at it? david: alex mentions authenticity. you did a podcast with hillary clinton. hounds her. it doesn't appear to many people, sometimes, that she is connecting. it is like there is a screen there. what is that? alex b.: i don't know how good i was at that. i have known her on and off. when i covered her by the way in what a lot of people are missing, in 2008 she was in game shape from the first day. she had just one person at reelection. she was dealing with us. she had a mode of operation that brought her around.

when you are giving all the speeches and retire to one of your mansions, she got the bends coming down from the penthouse. her, what ish authenticity? it is hard to define. it's what people think authenticity is. essentially your speeches are terrible. i saw you in iowa, it was like you were reading a list. if you go to a bernie sanders thing you can write it on the back of a napkin. me low, running for the presidency is a serious thing and i'm going to be as detailed as i want to be. i'm dead set. david: she know she is not that good at the performance art. she has said it.

, theylinton, barack obama have that. i don't have it. policy is not just something she believes in, it is her sword and shield. glenn: the clintons are not necessarily known over the course of their career for telling the truth all the time. i opened the conversation with ima terrible liar and hillary clinton is an excellent liar. she told the story about being in arkansas and flying around in crop duster is in the door coming off of the plane. i got more e-mails from people asking me to check that anecdote out to see if it was true. that is incredibly telling. people would doubt something as innocuous as that. david: let's go around the table as we close this discussion and do what is always scary to do when you are sitting in a taped conversation. what is going to happen? who is the next president of the united states? alex b.: there would have to be

a confluence of events between now and the contention -- convention to nominate someone strong in the election. muchnk it is pretty consensus. david: a he or a she? alex b.: nikki haley can still get in. alex w.: it's true. david: are you going to be bolder? alex w.: most people think hillary clinton is going to be the next president. there's been no time focused on what that administration might look like but that is most likely the outcome. glenn: i think it's going to be closer than people think. there is never an easy election for this woman. thisore we talk about how advantage the republicans are, the more i feel like this is going to see pennsylvania get tie in the end regardless of the candidate. two cloaked -- to quote someone me hethan me, he said to

couldinks hillary clinton beat donald trump from jail. note, on that cheerful glenn thrush, alex wagner, thank you for being here. ♪

charlie: leslie stahl is here. she has said i was born on my 30th birthday. everything before then was prenatal. she was hired by cbs. since then she has won 11 in the awards. inwardsturns her gaze on the experience of being a grandmother. her new book is the coming grandma, the joys and science of the new grand parenting. the practical. this is a fun read about an important subject. as always, i'm glad to have her. : you make me melt. charlie: i'm happy. let's get to the idea. you are experiencing something when children are born.

you are a hard-driving journalist. this morning, i said to you why are you doing this all the time? your appetite for the story has not diminished one bit. lesley: that's true. charlie: that love is there and has not been diminished. you say i'm a grandma and it is really needs. about, how the book came you will love. the publisher said i want you to write about 60 minutes. minutes.t 60 i said are you crazy? going to talk about my colleagues? it i will tell the truth and they will fire me -- [laughter] or it will be the most boring book i've ever read. i'm not doing that. i began to talk about my grandchildren. charlie: to him at the time. i'm not doing the book.

we turn to having our lunch, schmoozing. i can't coming back to my grandchildren. he said that is your book. , i would liket it to write about that. charlie: because what had been going on? lesley: i was so surprised at the depth of the emotion, at the babies.bonding with the i never expected that. it came out of nowhere. charlie: different from having children? lesley: very. charlie: how so? asley: it's undivided with grandchild. there is no worrying. there's no saying did i get them to the doctor on time? charlie: so what is it? lesley: it is love. deep lovingd, pure, in the way done it before.

charlie: you are not thinking about lesley, you are thinking about them. lesley: i'm not divided. my attention is completely focused. i am in real time. everything they do is brilliant. everything they do is wonderful. charlie: what do they call you? lesley: lolly. charlie: what is in this book? having this idea you are a whole new kind of love. nannies. of granny they are taking care of their --ndchildren, one day, today two days, three days a week. the children are -- the parents are working. they need our help. childcare is desperately expensive. it can cost more than college. we doeed us and they way not need our parents.

charlie: other than filling your heart, what are the changes for you? lesley: it's been huge. future. outlook on my my whole relationship with my daughter. much closer. we always had a great relationship. it was closer. even though i live across the country, we can talk about more things together. i am happier. i love being a grandmother. when i say that to people who know me at work, they are saying she is change. charlie: because your reputation is tough, get the story. that is who you are. lesley: you know that is not real. charlie: therefore when you see this book and you hear you, gushing, people say oh my god. this is really happening.

it is genuine. 3 it is really not who i am obviously. it is a little more revealing. is that what we are saying? it is mystical. i thought i was the only one. i wrote the book. i've been interviewing grandmothers and grandfathers. we are all in this together. we don't know that. charlie: i asked you this morning, is it different from grandfathers? lesley: grandfathers get just as besotted.d, -- th i've seen grandfathers as attentive. it happens a little later. grandmothers are attached to the

newborn in a biochemical way. there is a lot in there about the biochemistry of holding your grandchild. grandfathers seem to need more connection. the kids have to be a little older. once he is hooked, he can be even more attentive. charlie: this is from becoming grandma. you haven't broken down in tears. i thought i had become the of pity me of self-control. then my first grandchild was born, january 30, 2011. , moreblindsided by love loving, more intense than anything i could remember or have ever imagined. this was big for you. lesley: but it is not unusual. charlie: you have discovered

from other grandmothers. lesley: from most grandmothers i interviewed. yes.ie: you found it, lesley: i interviewed a grandmother in the bronx who ,ives in a fantastic house built for grandmothers raising their grandchildren. she had already taking care of this little girl's older sister. she said i was not going to take another child, not in a million years. then she is in the room when the baby is born. the doctor put the baby in her arms. she describes what i am telling you. i help that baby and that was it. i was hooked like a fish. charlie: is there an idea that old is cool? lesley: a little bit. charlie: i certainly hope so. [laughter] lesley: i'm doing all i can to report that. -- promote that. the baby boomers. a gigantic old.

-- a gigantic bunch. we relate to them. everything they have touched they have changed. we are actually healthier, truly healthier. charlie: and live longer. that is the great thing. we lived longer. you will experience the grandbaby growing up. a positive influence that goes beyond. lesley: they actually truly need us. charlie: what do they need? lesley: in all of time, from going back to the cave men, grandmothers were raising children. it is in our species. it is the way it was meant to be. it's a natural course of things. then came the industrial revolution and we got the nuclear family. what is supposed to be got separated.

when a grandmother has this feeling, i think it is because it is what is meant to be and the children need us because we in history going back, we nurtured them. we made sure they survived. that is why grandmothers, and most other animals, they die when they can no longer reproduce. why are grandmothers here? to take care of grandchildren. charlie: hillary clinton is the poster mother of grandparents. lesley: she is. charlie: she used to tell me what i would interview her, do you think she would rather have a grandchild bambi president? her husband said that is a hard choice for her but sometimes i do. she wants it so badly. she is dotingy is over her granddaughter. lesley: i saw her do an interview yesterday. she sounded like me. i said, my goodness, she could have written the book.

she is going through what i am going through. working women may be going through what i'm going through more intensely because -- charlie: with what impact? this is a wonderful feeling, i've discovered -- but you say it is the full stage of life. lesley: it is. you mentioned we are living longer. we are going to live 30 years longer after we retire, if we retire. [laughter] charlie: uni are exhibit a. lesley: another 30 years. there is a new phase of life. one we haven't had before. i do mean for me. i mean for everybody. i am suggesting in the book that the best way to spend it is helping your children raise grandchildren. to telling addition stories on 60 minutes you will tell stories to your grandchildren.

you are a storyteller wherever you turn. lesley: i think that is wonderful. charlie: thank you for coming. i want you to come back and talk about your markable career in journalism. you were born at 30 at cbs. 1971, 1972. in 25 years at 60 minutes. i know stories about you. lesley: don't tell. charlie: i do want to talk about remarkable career. it's not hard to understand why you love it so much. why you pursue it with such figure. lesley: you love it. you are at 60 minutes now. you get it. .ou get what fun it is to do it has that serious element, idealism wee is an tell ourselves. charlie: i want to tell that story. go tell a story. thank you.

the book is called " becoming grandma." her name is way above the title. the subtitle is "the joy and the science of grandparenting." they will be rewarded. lesley: thank you. charlie: thank you for joining us. see you next time. ♪

mark: "with all due respect" to bill o'reilly, this is a no-spin zone. good afternoon and tgi-not quite tax day yet. we are just outside syracuse. a little while ago, we interviewed senator ted cruz. i will show you that conversation a little later in the program, but first, bernie sanders' hail mary. he took a redeye flight last night after debating hillary clinton and went to rome, italy, where he delivered a 15-minute