john: i am john heilemann. i am mark halperin. with all due respect to new yorkers, hey, i'm voting here! ♪ mark: election day in the great state of new york. ,he campaign in other states donald trump and hillary clinton were in no hurry to leave the hometown love behind. surrounded by tv cameras, both made the ritual stop this morning to cast ballots, for themselves presumably. this afternoon, i caught up with

donald trump junior with his family a few blocks from here. some striking communication workers of america protesters tried to drown us out with their horns. we spoke briefly about if today felt different from the other election days he has seen so far. what is today like compared to all other days because it is new york? >> it is home, right? always good to be home. the amount of support walking down the street today is unprecedented. it's good from both sides of the aisle. the independents and conservatives saying we can't wait to vote for your father. it is really exciting. >> you have never seen his name on the ballot before. >> i have people sending me pictures of them voting for him. i wanted to bring the little one

along so she could see the process. what my father has done is brought a lot of people who have not been involved in politics, which is exciting. mark: i did not hear a word he said. i only watch the baby. it's hard to believe that ted cruz and bernie sanders were hot off their wisconsin primary victories. those were the days of old when talk of clinton's troubles and never-trump energy seemed to still be mounting. whatever momentum there was back then has largely dissipated with trump and clinton on top. so how did we get here? let's pause for a moment to reflect on the post-wisconsin two week whirlwind starting with , the republicans. >> republicans go to new york, trump goes quiet. no sunday shows. but not too quiet. >> the only person that can get crooked hillary clinton does not want to run against is donald trump.

>> he goes on tour. >> no place like staten island. >> ted cruz goes on defense, new york values. >> the people i was talking about are the liberal new york democrats who have hammered this state. >> new york responds. >> get out of the bronx. >> ted cruz plays foosball. ted cruz gets more delegates, and other states. >> it is a rigged system. it is a fix. it is a crooked system. >> john kasich gives a big speech. >> when we unite as a country, america always wins. mark: food. so, the empire state front-runners are striking back. john: was that an indiscriminate food thing? massive food. trump has struck back and is in a better position in almost

every way than he was two weeks ago. so what has gone right for donald trump? how did he right this ship? john: a lot of things have gone right for him. i will start by saying that he executed with a kind of deftness that was not usually his thing. while ted cruz has gone around the country, beating him playing , the inside game, states like colorado and wyoming trump , turned it to his advantage rhetorically and made the argument that plays right into the populace energy. it is right on brand for him. it is a strong thing for him to seize on. mark: he basically became hillary clinton. he acted like a new york incumbent, campaigned around the state talked about his love of , the state, message discipline. he put his staff in place and set let me worry about being the candidate. and he had a line of attack that he consistently hit to try to put them on the defensive.

john: adding to bring more things here. the professionalism of his staff , which may be too late, but for the media audience has meant a lot because he gets kudos from people. the other thing is message discipline. he stayed off the sunday shows, hasn't gone on a rant. it has been on message and not a lot of things that are stray comments getting him in trouble. mark: he said, no more debates and stayed away from letting rivals engage him on their terms. as you said, driving this message, the press is largely sympathetic to that. as we mentioned, donald trump's opponents failed to capitalize on that special moment right after wisconsin when the republican front runner was clearly at his most vulnerable. so, john, the past two weeks, what have cruz and kasich done weak? john: i'm going to violate the tenants of the question, at

least on ted cruz. i have to go to iowa and the comment. i have to say it. the new york values thing. he got himself in trouble. it put him on defense. mark: you could say that what he did wrong is that he did not come in with a great plan to deal with it. he tried different things and it clearly hurt him. what about john kasich? john: as has often been the case with john kasich -- cruz didn't have a plan to deal with that problem and kasich did not have a plan at all. other than going around eating food. again, which i am all for. he has not had a plan. mark: clinton gave big speech, one well-written, not that well delivered. it had bad luck on the day paul ryan announced he was not going to run. tedave no idea tonight if cruz or john kasich will pick up any delegates. if either one of them picks up meaningful delegates, it will be a success for them. john: i will stand back and say that john weaver had some secret

plan, upstate, anywhere, where he can harvest delegates. right now, i can't see it. mark: donald trump a strong in the north east and new york. bernie sanders a big win, his sixth straight victory was seen as a big setback for a frustrated clinton campaign that would have much rather been pivoting to its general election message. part quick refresher on what has two, a happened in the two weeks since then. >> clinton, sanders, new york. both have subway trouble. >> had he get on the subway? >> you put in a token and go in. >> for clinton, big apple sites.

or sanders, big apple crowds. 28,000 supporters. >> a debate about qualification. >> she has a technique for being unqualified. >> an actual debate in brooklyn. >> secretary clinton, the question was about the transcripts of the speeches to goldman sachs. >> bernie sanders did get to meet with the pope. >> bad jokes. bad surrogates. time to vote. john: all right, mark, a reprise of the questions, assuming hillary clinton does well , what has gone right for her? mark: a campaign senator moving for reelection, lots of symbolic events, and had surrogates galore from all parts of the beautiful mosaic that is new york on her behalf. john: the point i made yesterday, bernie sanders, his position on guns has been a

weakness for him throughout the democratic nomination fight. there's no place where there is more weakness than here in new york. you heard her and her surrogates harping on that and driving that message almost every day. particular,city in these five boroughs, that will hurt him with a lot of votes that will come out of new york city on the democratic side. mark: new york is thought of as a city of cranky people but it is not. it is a city that loves to live. hillary clinton is going against a bernie sanders who often looks cranky. she has brilliantly acted up the beat, even on days when there is pressure. she has been an upbeat and happy warrior. sanders has suffered in the contrast. john: and although she has shown some strain at times, and not going so far as to say the democratic nomination is already

minned mathematically, she has avoided saying that. seeing her as entitled is bad. mark: she is new york, new york right now. we showed you those huge bernie sanders crowds in manhattan and brooklyn. what is it you think that went wrong for sanders? why did he fail to capitalize on the big wisconsin win? and on the apparent obvious energy that he has generated here in new york. mark: we talked about this halfway through from wisconsin. to pick a fight with her about whether she is qualified, one of the hardest arguments to possibly try to make against her, whatever else you want to say about her. the choice to do the big rallies at the end rather than the beginning. the beginning of the time, he saw the momentum completely dissipate because he is fighting a losing fight, then drop the fight with no explanation whatsoever. new york reporters and new york media culture does not look kindly on incompetent

campaigning. bernie sanders has been a great candidate in many ways but not these last two weeks. john: the thing we showed in the montage there, him seizing on this qualification debate was a huge mistake. she never suggested he was not qualified. she rightly criticized him for some of his answers in the york daily news editorial. he seized on that, and then went too far. in the same way the clinton campaign has been wrong in the things likestupid bernie sanders is a friend of the koch brothers, you can't say she's not qualified. it was a huge mistake and gave her the upper hand in rebutting that argument for all of two weeks. mark: the other thing is that he never made a theory of what new york was about. did he have to win or not? about halfway through when it became clear to him that they weren't going to win, they never came forward with an explanation of how they could overtake her. that was the past. coming up, we go back to the future. this two party

presidential contest and what it means for your weekend, after this. ♪

john: joining us now to talk more about the turmoil on the is ourn trail junior-senior combo. actually, our junior-señor combo. advisor the paul ryan and former marco rubio fan boy. >> i still am a marco rubio fan. fan. john: donald trump, professionalizing his campaign or causing too much turmoil? what say you? >> he is definitely

professionalizing his campaign. i agree with you guys, he has done a lot of correct things two weeks. getting the rhetorical bang for his buck by claiming the system is rigged while he is hiring people at reading the system. he has the good timing and good geography. these two weeks are fantastic for him. it is the northeast, and it is me and anybody that is not in the trump camp. there will be more favorable terrain around the corner. john: when you hear about internal strife, you just say that's how it is? or has it reached a level of that makes you think this is a campaign insignificant trouble. >> if things go well for him, we will say it is a stroke of genius, brilliance, on his part. assuming that trump will win, has aknow dan perspective, and opinion, on this what if kasich finishes , second? there is a contest about points

over cruz. number one, what does that do to ted cruz? number two bank, what does that do to donald trump. it may mean nothing if he gets to 1200 delegates. tonight will answer that question and if he does well, we will say kudos to him. if he does well, trump does well and these northeastern states, doing when states, i don't know how -- the numbers just don't add up to stop him at some point as he regains his momentum. mark: go to 48,000 feet and look at the cruz campaign. if you were the ted cruz campaign what would give you the most optimism that trump can be stopped from a majority? dan: if you are serious about stopping him, you have to appreciate john kasich rise. mark: they keep saying he should get out of the race. >> right, they clearly aren't thinking like me. i'm convinced they may not be as much for stopping trump as they are for cruz. that is what happens in campaigns. tonight will give us more data. you all have said this very well on the show individually and

collectively. we will have a press and media narrative for tonight. he's got to do well again. if he does well again, then a lot of this conversation around stopping him will have to change. it may not be stopping him but how do we join him, change his message, make him more palatable. mark: another one of your candidates, mitt romney, said this week that it would be much better to stop trump. you agree with him? dan: i think there are places where kasich could come in second and jam up the narrative a little bit about trump. i don't want to understate the importance of that. that being said, on balance, over the long run, it is a problem for kasich to be in the race as far as the anti-trunk forces are concerned. once you get to places like california, where it is winner take all by congressional district, and they are splitting trump willhen donald

win congressional district after congressional district across california with 45% of the vote. it is a huge problem that john kasich is in this thing. i don't understand his game plan. maybe he can play for the top slot, but he is positioning himself for vp. there is no real path to the nomination at this point and i think he is a spoiler. john: is in california the perfect case and place for open court nation? it seems to me that if you look at the congressional districts, you fight in those 12 and we will fight in these eight. harold: assuming we lived in a world where anybody could coordinate to that sophisticated degree effectively. it just doesn't happen. this is been talked about for months. mitt romney has been focused on this like a laser beam. remember he said, voters in ohio

should vote for kasich, in utah, vote for cruz. it just doesn't -- trying to courtney that kind of thing has been completely absent from the cycle. john: don't go anywhere. we will be right back with more after this. ♪

mark: we are back, one of the episodes where the conversations during the break is almost as good as the conversation on the show.

former tennessee congressman harold ford junior and dan senior, a.k.a. dan señor. dan: they hate it when my name is mispronounced. john: we are doing it intentionally. let's talkight, so little bit about the democrats. after tonight, let's say hillary clinton wins big. do efforts to force sanders if not out of the race, but to stop attacking her and stop doing things that would make her a weaker general election candidate potentially, to those things step up? harold: i hope what steps up is that his realization doesn't happen in terms of being the nominee. let's not get ahead of ourselves. i think my candidate will do well tonight, but assuming she does, i would hope that senator sanders interest and intentions on beating a republican and ensuring a progressive gets to the white house will overtake everything. mark: do you predict the claire

mccaskills of the world will speak out and say, come on, step down. this thing is over. harold: and what happens with his supporters? we have to make sure his supporters feel as much a part of this campaign to ensure and assive values continuation of things that president obama has worked on now for seven and a half years. john: good luck with that. harold: but look to the other side is putting. the threat that that poses to the progress and the gains we have made. i think senator sanders is a believer in that as much as he is a believer in that he should be the nominee. we could compare trump and clinton side by side. has she looked formidable to you? dan: i still believe that hillary clinton is extremely vulnerable.

you know the data. her negatives are as close to as high as donald trump and ted cruz. for a host of reasons, she is a weak general election candidate. i think just about any republican candidate -- only the realization that donald trump is stronger than i expected and will be over the next couple weeks that will give him momentum. i no longer believe that he has to hit 1237. i think if he is just shy, it will be tough to stop him at the convention. not impossible, but tough. i think that makes her look better. we are constant he reminded that at the end of the day, at some point this summer, we will have a crazy convention that will not reflect well on republicans and we will go to a general election and that will probably be donald trump or ted cruz. i would say that she contrasts better which trump than ted cruz. i think she only looks stronger in the world in which we are

imagining donald trump is the nominee. >> she is stronger. i see what dan is saying, but she has faced a formidable opponent in this primary. one eight years ago. she faced one this go around and she finds herself in much better political shape and from a political fitness standpoint, then she did before. there's no doubt these numbers are not quite. contend, and we were all together before i don't think we , will ever see a candidate come out of a presidential primary as long as we have this kind of attention for this long of a time that is a front-runner with numbers were the positives are higher than the negatives. when you get this kind of scrutiny -- >> virtually zero energy from the base of her party. big chunks of the base of her party, not the entire bays, but certainly the young demographic. that is not a function of scrutiny. i think people are just turned off on the clintons. >> a year and a half ago her

numbers were off the charts. when you get in this business in the back and forth, i don't disagree with you. i understand where you're coming from. some of the youth vote and the younger vote, some of that photo will come around. they did not know who bernie sanders was two years ago. they are excited about the progressive message in the things he stands for. hillary clinton is right where bernie is on a majority -- her. they are not for so here's the question. let's say he does what she did eight years ago, i am with you hillary clinton, i nominate you i want my supporters to go. , she will have to do something to generate actual enthusiasm among those millennial voters that have attached themselves to bernie sanders. what can she do to make those people enthused about her? >> tell them that she is running against donald trump. that will be 95% of the core

message. bernie sanders and hillary clinton, you can't find much room between them on the issues. >> she's not a democratic socialist. >> i think we call her a democrat. mark: isn't that logical? we are not donald trump. my candidate is a democrat and looks forward to a good night tonight. mark: up next donald trump's , best chance of avoiding a contested convention. we will surely the math right after this. ♪ you shouldn't have to go far

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delegate scenarios. can donald trump secure the nomination without unbound delegates? and second, can hillary get the majority without a single superdelegate? we had to make a series of educated assumptions about how both candidates might the form in the coming weeks. based on current polling and a reporting, here is how it might play out. we will start with the republicans. donald trump leads. ted cruz has 559. john kasich has 144. if trump wins big tonight, it's possible he could win 80 of the 95 empire state delegates up for grabs. that would bring his total to 836. in order to reach the he needs 1237, to avoid a contested convention. donald trump would then need 56% of the remaining delegates. how does he do that?

is that feasible? the answer starts in the northeast, five states are voting a week from today. the public polling there, not in every state, but trump is leading in these northeastern states. 172 delegates. we are giving donald trump 104. this is all back of the envelope stuff. that would bring him to 928. after next week, there are four more winner take all states. they have a combined total of +143 delegates. donald trump needs to win new jersey for sure. that is the largest of the winner take all states. 51 delegates. under this scenario trump could , probably lose one of the other three winner take all states. we think nebraska is the one he's most likely to lose. that would bring his total to 1035. not a sure thing. we also singled out three states where trump has to win pretty big. that is indiana and california.

delegates in those states are awarded winner take all by congressional district and some statewide. and west virginia where delegates are elected individually, but aligned with candidates. 3hose states have 260 delegates total. we think trump would have to win at least two thirds of those to stay on track. if he gets less than that, he will have to make it up somewhere else in order to get to the majority. that gets him under our scenario to 1205. the remaining states goal out their delegates proportionally based on the statewide vote, so even losers get some delegates. all trump would have to do in this and are is to collect a third of the delegates to reach the finish line. 1237. he does not have to win those proportional states, and he is weak in those states relative to the others, but he does have to be competitive. john, you and i have both talked

to the other campaigns about our scenario. where would donald trump's rivals say his vulnerabilities are in the way that we played this? john: unquestionably, the campaign believes, and i think there right montana, south , dakota, nebraska ted cruz , could win all of those states and would be the favorite. trump can't afford to lose those winner take all states. he could still get to 1237, but would have to do so well in the he would have to do so well in the other states. mark: there are two big variables here regarding those states in particular. northeastentum in the , does it carry to the midwestern and planes states? and does it allow him to compete? will there be more tv advertising? will there be a more sophisticated on the ground operation? is it a him to take his national popularity in those states and actually win? john: those are good questions, but cruz will have the advantage in those three states, and also

in indiana. they are all big roadblocks to donald trump. let's talk about the democrats. we wanted to know if hillary clinton could plausibly beat bernie sanders without the help of any superdelegates. currently, clinton is up by 244. if clinton wins big tonight, it could bring her count as high as 1437, which is about 950 delegates short. even then, we have no real plausible way that clinton can secure the nomination based on purely pledged delegates. she would need 65% of the remaining to pull that off. given the proportional representation rules, that is pretty unlikely. assuming a new york win for clinton, if her campaign maintains its currently and splits all the remaining delegates with bernie sanders 50-50 she would need the help of , 211 superdelegates to push her

over the threshold. so basically, sanders can potentially convert more than 500 of the 713 superdelegates and still lose the nomination. remember clinton already has 469 , superdelegates backing her. how many does sanders have? just 31. that is daunting math. if you are in the sanders campaign and looking at all of that, what are clinton's biggest vulnerabilities? mark: the biggest problem the sanders campaign created for itself was arguing arguing they will win with the support of delegates, because they basically legitimize the idea that they could win this was superdelegates. pursues her exceptionally well, she can win with superdelegates and they will be hard-pressed to complain that the superdelegates because

-- her only vulnerability is there has to be a fundamental change in the dan amick of the -- in the dynamic of the race where voters and superdelegates believe that sanders will be a stronger general election candidate because of new problem she develops. john: bernie sanders is not the leader on june 8, there is no way. again, look at those super delegate numbers. on our set of assumptions, he could claim 500 and still not beat her. you've got to have the argument that the only way to do it is be ahead in pledged delegates. that means he has to have some blowouts. i don't see some vulnerabilities for her, but he's going to have to have some blowouts. he may have those but it is a , tall mountain to climb no matter what his friends and fans say. mark: a good night tonight, a good week, good next tuesday, then he can tighten this up and then he is within hailing distance.

but it is still very hard for him to overcome where she is. thank you to our teachers for making this segment possible. a political conversation comes up that requires relators. -- requires calculators, that is after these words from our sponsors. ♪

>> there is a lot of speculation in the press that does the

changes he made, what is your take on those? >> it is a natural evolution and process. you have to adapt. we have a pretty clear lead. are new people being brought in to take over? >> they are brought in to do specific tasks. it is a tactical change, and i think it will be important for the evolution of the campaign going forward. >> who is running the campaign now? >> my father. he is always running it. john: that was donald trump junior talking over car horns or the theme music from psycho about reports of a campaign ke up in trumpland. kim alfano and howard wilson. our boss and former communications director. thank you.emen thank you.

we haven't had you on in a , while. what is your view? >> last time, i had a terrible predictions. at thisat is your view moment of donald j trump billionaire politician? >> i will get roundly abused on twitter and the internet but i have to say he is masterful. the last cycle we got into this, it was politics of the new cycle. now i think it is politics of the tweets. no one does it better than him. he can say something outrageous one day and the next a look you in the eye and say, i never said that. or say something more salacious and get you moved off it in an instant. john: are you impressed by donald trump as a new york politician? howard: very much so. i think that both of the candidates that will win today will win in part because they are real new yorkers. they have real familiarity with the new cycle and the press corps here. they both look like they are in

their element these past weeks. mark: how does the donald trump campaign seem to be handling the personnel changes from afar? howard: so every campaign, at some stage, does go through some additions. the question is if they are real additions or additions by subtraction. i think it remains to be seen. if the campaign manager can coexist with the people they brought on, maybe they can create a better environment for a chance of success. but it also has the possibility of being a huge flame out. mark: how would you appraise ted cruz's chances? kim: i would say 50-50. like i said, this is uncharted territory, and it is about the mastery of the process, which hasn't been defined yet.

i don't under estimate donald trump's ability to say something to hijack it back. biggestat you think is mistake that sanders made in the last two weeks, bernie sanders, and if you were the communications director for bernie sanders, what would you do next? howard: i just don't think he was ever really going to win new york. i think that she was very much on her home turf. she is very comfortable in this environment, and he was not going to win. i'm not sure i would have had him as aggressively contest the contest as they did. i might have suggested that he was not likely to win because this is literally her home state. i think people would have bought seems as if he went all in. i think at some point they will

have to begin reassuring nervous democrats to the extent they care about the democratic party that he is not going to continue to bash hillary clinton on a near daily basis. at some point you have to worry about unifying the party and you need to begin signaling that you're going to take your foot off the gas a little bit. you can compete to the end and raise all kinds of money but if you are going to be basically calling her a criminal and that she has basically violated campaign finance laws, that is not helpful. you'll begin to see a lot of people say you can contest this but cool it with the ethics and , the personal attacks. mark: how do you feel about the effectiveness of donald trump attacking the republican national committee. was it a good idea for his campaign? kim: i think he's done a great job. i'm obtaining a sleek, he's doing what everyone else is doing. if you don't think they are doing the same type of operation -- mark: what does he get out of messaging that way?

kim: he gets to be in charge of what happens no matter what happens. he gets 1237, he can unify the party. he doesn't and they switch something, or a second ballot scuffle or a third ballot scuffle he gets to say it was , rigged, crazy, and he can explode and try to win by his people pressuring -- mark: what is your most optimistic scenario coming out of cleveland united and strong? will the party be united if that happens? m: understand, this is all for geeks like us. even as outrageous it has been all year, by the end of august, when the actual campaign starts, it is all a memory. nobody will have gone through this delegate math like you guys did. nobody will even remember all of this, in my opinion.

yeah, the party unites, because they want to win. john: thank you. coming up, notes from the campaign trail. our reporters open their notebooks on the democratic race. don't forget that if you're watching us on washington, d.c. that you can also listen to us on the radio. we will be right back. ♪

mark: joining us now are the bloomberg colleagues that have been covering the democratic presidential race. margaret and jennifer, ladies, great to see you. i want you to debate this topic amongst yourselves. does hillary clinton seem like she is in a good mood this week? >> yes. she's eating ice cream and walking around with her hot

sauce. she is trying not to be in too good a mood in case it's closer. it's almost over, right? >> she definitely seems to be very much like ready to be done with this in a way but at the same time, knowing that she has to go out there and look like she is working hard. but she does seem to be enjoying every moment of it as much a she possibly figure out. she was in flushing yesterday. she definitely thought it was weird. , but shed it chewy tea was working the crowd with chuck schumer and i think she has found a way to make campaigning a little bit more palatable to herself. but at this point in time i , think she is aware of all of the challenges ahead going into the general.

she knows at the same time that she has to keep doing this dance at the primary. i think that is probably wearing on her a bit. i think she wants to move on, and we saw that in the debate last week. i think that she is hoping that the results tonight and next week that they can shift a little bit more toward the general. john: are they actually angry or playing this up? >> i think they are angry. on the one hand, they are the doing the party building and ones sanders is doing none of it, but continually giving them a run for her money. and then turn around and complain that she has joint actions with the party. of course they have to howl about it. if they don't, there is credence to what he's doing. you don't want it to get to type in new york if you are her. obviously, sanders would want to win. if he can make it close, it gives him the argument to keep going on.

>> all of the public polling as had her up by 10 points. and i think the campaign senses that this is probably going to be tighter than that. >> some are making it a two-point race. >> yeah, joe bennett was on tv earlier today saying a win is a win. but with the expectations, that barack obama did not campaign against her at all here in 2008. >> sanders is in another state. if he thought he was going to win, he would be here. mark: what is up with the big dog? him last night. they had this big irish-american event. they take so much credit for what he did in the 1990's. he has been a bit of a mixed back on the trail recently.

his interne interactions with black lives matters protested have ended up causing problems not just for him but for the , whole campaign, forcing secretary clinton to go back and talk about the crime bill again when she would rather talk about almost anything else. so that is kind of where it has been lately. mark: jennifer and margaret, thank you. enjoy tonight's coverage. coming up, the most famous hands in american politics are at it again. not these. john: i hear trump coming. here comes trunk. -- donald trump. ♪

mark: donald trump's hands have been a big issue in this campaign. he seemed eager to show off the various gestures he can make with his hands. we counted 73 distinct emotions in this one speech alone. we have compiled and named many of them for a brief performance set to the classic tune, the blue don-ube. ♪

♪ mark: the hands are famous for a reason. john: it is one of those that i like best. mark: i like the geronimo. john: i like the nsfw. was the second i like? mark: pocket rocket. [laughter] mark: thank you to our brilliant colleague for putting that

together and naming those things that have become internet staples. john: visit bloomberg politics.com for coverage of tonight. congressman tim murphy you will not want to miss. and you will not want to miss like i said a second ago, all of the coverage of the new york primary. mark: they report late in some parts of the state. if you want to know who won in the final tallies, at least take a nap. john: is there any chance that bernie sanders shocks all of us and wins this? mark: i'm too old to predict. john: is there any chance? mark: we will see. wrap up tomorrow. john: i will be watching these results tonight because it is my home state. until tomorrow, sayonara. ♪

♪ rishaad: it is wednesday, the 20th of april. i am rishaad salamat. this is "trending business". ♪ take you to new york, singapore, and sydney. reaching four month highs, extending gains on wall street. regionaloups of the benchmark rising, led by brawl materials producer. -- by ral