john: i'm john heilemann. mark: and i'm mark halperin. "with all due respect" to speaker paul ryan, we have a feeling a brand-new nickname is about to come your way. ♪ leading our show, a latebreaking political bombshell. speaker of the house paul ryan in an interview a short while ago that he is in effect not on board the trump train. when he was asked if he would back trump, he said this. speaker ryan: to be perfectly candid, i am not ready to do that at this point. i am not there.

and i hope to, and i want to, but what is required is that we unify the party. saying that we are unified doesn't in itself unify us. taking the principles that we believe in, showing a dedication to those, and running a principled campaign republicans can be proud about -- that is what it takes to unify the party. mark: a source familiar with the speaker explained his words this way. "the speaker was not prepared about what to say as trump as the nominee this early." he thought he was going to have more time, but john kasich and ted cruz abruptly handed their campaign quickly. ryan and his advisers had a day to think about it after cruz got out. facing what this source called "difficult options," ryan took the position from his heart rather than pure politics. this is the biggest repudiation of trump is a nominate from any

current elected official. what happens now? john: [laughter] well, we hinted at in the cold open, that trump will lash out at paul ryan. that will reinforce how difficult trump's challenge is in putting the party together. i'm sure paul ryan is being honest. the idea that he only had a day to think about it is ridiculous. the idea that trump would be the nominee, that he would have to grapple with this question has been cleared for weeks. if he's not wanting to deal with that, he is in denial. he did not serve himself well. mark: i think it covers every member of the house, lots of other republicans. a few of the people say, i am not for trump yet, let's see how he does. ryan is trying to use a little bit of stick and carrot to say, hey, i am open for the guy. but it's another extraordinary spectacle to have the speaker of the house say, a guy that has

one fair and square than one nomination, i'm not for him yet. that is going to sting and allow a lot of people to not be for trump, at least not yet. john: with a normal nominate, the strategy of what ryan does -- beg me to do what you want, beg me to be vice president -- to say, you have to earn my endorsement, that would normally be clever. given that it is trumped, it is unclear whether it is clever or not. trump is so unpredictable and how he acts. i thought he might lash out at ryan. knowing trump's temperament, he very miller lite. mayidea that trump -- that backfire. mark: they have had some conversations. and made public comments back and forth that have been friendly. some less so. paul ryan hears about policy.

trump's position on policy and trade make it very difficult for ryan to say he should be the nominee. i guarantee you, ryan is surrounded by people, including one that will be a guest on the show tonight, that have extreme trump skepticism. john: what is trump going to do? there are big policy items. we have important conservatives that listen to trump and say, if he doesn't change his posture on immigration, his posture on the muslim ban, if he doesn't do something like that, it will be hard for me to support him. that is a totally legitimate position to take. what do they expect trump to do? these are positions that trump built his candidacy on. it is one thing to visit in a general election -- pivot in a general election towards the middle. it is another thing to repudiate the marquis headline that made you so popular in the first place. mark: we will talk more about ryan later in the show. john: and paul ryan repudiating

trump, not the only one. it is time for today's uniter divider index update. a lot of action on the anti-trump front. we got this ryan news, but before that you had bush 4'1 and bush '43 having no part in this election. mitt romney announced he would be skipping the election this summer. he said on this program earlier that he would never vote for trump. the republican senator from nebraska wrote a 5000 word piece of post -- facebook post that he could not about four trump or hillary clinton. meanwhile, there are some republicans like mitch mcconnell, and governor brian sandoval and former minnesota governor tim plenty that have fallen in line. question, taking the

uniter-divider elements on both sides, what do we know about how things stand in trump's challenge of bringing the party together? mark: before ryan, i thought he was having a better day than worse day. the ryan thing tilts the thing. the two president bushs, it shows how much trump has changed our perception to have two former presidents. one that was a german of the rnc -- a chairman of the rnc. they are acting like, oh, we are not waiting in, we are staying home today. john: they are waiting in. they for them to not say are voting for the republican nominee is weighing in. john: bob dole said he will go to the convention, but is not committed to voting for trump. john mccain, we are not clear where he is.

some audio cannot that he suggests that trump will make his reelection more of an uphill fight mitt romney. , we know where he is. those are the living republican nominees. all of them. not a single one today is for donald trump. that is a huge statement. huge. mark: and even some people on the list, like mitch mcconnell, saying that they will support -- that is not the most full throated thing. john: mcconnell is saying, it's trump duty and obligation to unify the party. he still says trump has a lot of work to do. mark: what is happening is an extraordinary spectacle. i think the ryan thing gives people cover to not be for trump. can trump have a unified party in cleveland for the convention? we don't know yet. today and it up not being a iter-dividerr the un index. after months of the writing his candidates -- deriding his

candidates, donald j trump is looking to join the ranks. he will no longer be exclusively a self funder. today, the present of nominee announced -- the presumptive a formernnounced goldman sachs partner and ceo of a private investment firm will be his campaign's national finance chairman, something trump did not have or need before. he has talked with the rnc about a joint fundraising agreement.there are lots of ways to raise money. how is jump going to do it -- trump going to do it, and what are the risks? john: we don't know much about the plan here. how much of the super pac is going to be part of this. his finance chairman is going to raise money for trump in the traditional way, through party

committees, and individual contributions. the super pac is still unknown. this guy is not that well known. he is not one of the people in the past cycles that has been a big player in republican funding circles. we don't know how good he's going to be at his job. mark: there are four ways to raise money. one is super pac money. based on this guy's resume, based on a trump's rolodex, i think they can raise big tex. -- big checks. i don't think trump is going be raising $2500 checks. there is a fourth way, which is small dollars, mail, internet solicitations, which trump has been good at. i talked to one of the best fundraisers in the republican party. let's say he needs to raise $1 million. if you resist $50 -- he raises $50 from 10 million people,

then tinley dollars from 250 people-- i think he could get bigger ch ecks and $50 from the low dollar donors. that is not an exact formula, but it is doable if trump start asking people for money more than he has. and if his new financier can go to rich people in las vegas, the sports world, and movies, and say, i need $5 million. john: a lot of people are focusing on this guy that he has, goldman sachs ties, that he is a hedge fund guy. i don't care about any of that, and i don't think anyone focuses on that stuff. trump has a powerful argument that he's made through the nomination-- he can't make that argument anymore. $10 million checks,

he says, these are my brains, these are people -- my brands, these are people that will never ask me for anything. they will sign a pledge to never ask the government for anything. john: good luck with that. a preview with a party convention this summer. hillary clinton searching for the best strategy to be donald trump. and we will keep talking about paul ryan and his not yet trump position. all of that and so much more after this word from our sponsor. ♪

john: as we shift to the general election, hillary clinton's campaign is trying to frame donald trump as they are big matchup this summer and fall. one reason is not easy is that trump is a moving target. just today on this cinco de

mayo, trump tweeted a picture of himself eating a taco bell and best taco bowls are making trump tower grill. i love hispanics!" there are at least two schools of thought about the best way for clinton to take on trump. one that paints him as erratic and too dangerous to be commander-in-chief. using that tactic at the california african-american museum. sec. clinton: trump turns around and says, i don't care if other countries get nuclear weapons. that is the kind of risk this country cannot afford to take. that is dangerous. [applause] cannon that a loose we cannot afford. john: there is another approach similar to clinton's tweet about

the taco bowl. that is to convince voters that a trump presidency would be downright awful for women, minorities, and other important demographic groups that matter in the election, especially pro democrat. listen how clinton framed it this morning when calling in to a los angeles times editorial board. sec. clinton: the whole idea of "playing the woman card," which he charged i was doing, and by extension, other women, has lit a fire under women across the country. i think it is because they see in his attacks on the or on fiorina,ly or on carly or whoever else he is attacking at the moment, a much more broad attack on them. john: mark, hillary clinton has gone after trump in two different ways. she has gone after the loose cannon, attacking him on his

policies being bad for constituency groups. which is most effective, and does she even have to choose? mark: i am torn on this from talking to strategists in both parties who say on the one hand, trump is such a target rich environment for clinton to start to define him, and it's hard to choose. maybe it is better to figure out which one works. some say, now is the time to define him, focus on that. in the end, economics will be the best thing. she is going to need to show people that trump would not be starting a good economy. part of it is to talk about his record as a business person. in the end, that is what is going to define it. she will talk about how she can help the economy and he can't. john: in conventional politics,

you pick a frame and decide the one way that you go after your opponent in that frame. i have a feeling that, i don't know which is better, but i don't think they are going to choose. they will use multiple frames. they have a little time. they want to do this soon, but i have a month or so to test out some things, do some polling. tried a number of friends, tie it all up in a ball. for mitt romney, they went after him on budget things, deportation and said, he is not in it for you. johnmark: it will say trump is t acceptable, just the statements that he's made, his record -- unacceptable. trump is going to come after her as crooked and old politics. some of her aides have already been interviewed in the fbi investigation. you can bet trump will be

talking about that. but the look in race essentially wrapped up. hillary clinton creeping closer to the delicate finish line. her attention will turn in earnest to the party convention this summer. both are in july. republicans gather first in cleveland from 18-20 first. after that, back-to-back weeks, the democrats need in philadelphia for the 25th-28. republicans are meeting at quicken loans arena, or the cavaliers play. democrat day will be at the wells fargo center, some court for the sixers. both hold 20,000 people for sports, but big venues. john, what do you think a clinton and trump convention look like? john: to start, there's no question that the conventional wisdom has been flipped on its head. republicans are headed for a disastercontingent --

contested convention, writes in the street, and that philadelphia could be a love fest. but it looks like philadelphia will be a contested convention and we won't have one of those in cleveland. the republican one is harder to manage given the chaos in the party. even though they have operated the spectacle -- have uprooted the spectacle of a contested convention, it will be harder in cleveland than hillary and bernie to get it together. mark: what will happen between now and then, but now you have the specter of paul ryan. the guy who is supposed to be in charge of the convention, speculation is going to revive. brian is doing this because he trump canstill stop st be the vehicle to do that. the democratic convention is potentially going to be a showcase for people testifying on behalf of hillary clinton, just as they did in boston for mitt romney. they talked about romney's work

with people he knew. you'll see some of that. clinton has tried to do this in the past. here are people hillary clinton has touched. john: bernie sanders remains the wildcard. how he handles it matters a lot. up next, a man that is close with paul ryan. fabled gop strategist mary matalin. we will talk about the news of the day and much, much more after this. ♪

john: a quick update, moments ago, chris christie said he will retire personally to paul ryan to see what his concerns are

about supporting trump. joining us from chicago to talk about the storyline is mary matalin of the influential republicans catalyst. or,e in our studio, dan sen longtime advisor to the speaker. dan, you are not the horse's mouth, but you had a lot of encounters with it. tell us what is going to the speaker's mind at this moment when donald trump is trying to unify the party and the speaker does not seem to be on board. dan: he believes it is incumbent upon all jump to unify the party. -- upon donald trump to unify the party. it is the presumptive nominee's job to unify the party. he was struck by these calls for party unity, that people should just fall in line. in principle, he's not against getting behind a unifying figure. but if there is some sort of apprehension about unity right now, that is donald trump's job.

john: a more basic question, asked whether he will support donald trump. he says he is not there yet. what is required on donald trump's part? what does he have to do to earn paul ryan-- dan: he has serious question about donald trump's temperament to be commander-in-chief. he has serious questions about his judgment. mark: what does he expect them to do to address it? dan: he is not providing a checklist, but saying over the next couple of months in the election, earn my support. we all have turned the support of those who are asking for our vote, then he should do the same. the weight donald trump has behaved in the last few months, rhetorically, temperamentally, gives people a lot of pause whether or not he is worthy of having their support. mark: mary, john and i think this is a big deal. is it, or are we overreacting? mary: with all due respect, i

think you're overreacting. analysise with your that this is some white knight effort. mark: people might speculate about that. forget that piece of it -- just the notion of the speaker of the house withholding his support for the presumptive nominee of his party. is that a big deal or not? mary: indiana was two days ago. the call for party unity was perfunctory, but it is premature. this one is particularly emotional because mainstream republicans, and certainly conservative republicans are very angry at the party. isanalysis is that paul ryan speaking to conservatives and saying, we understand that you are not about a person or a person, you are about runcible's. he would like to hear from donald trump, as many of us would like to, particularly those who have registered as

libertarians -- more about his policy prescriptions. he does not have to undo anything, he has to flesh out principles that comport with white people have supported the republican party in the past. mark: mary, when did you reregister as libertarian. where do you stand on voting for trump? mary: i may never-hillary and provisional-trump. i like his strategic puts the, --strategic hotspot-- that he can put micro-messaging over micro-targeting. i just don't know enough. winould not only wi, but in a landslide if he would stop his high school boy antics with women. i think you can peel off some african-americans, nontraditional millenial voters. john: we have to go to break, but mary, you reregister as libertarian, and when? mary: today. john: why did you do that?

mary: i am a republican in the jeffersonian-madisonian sense. i am not for a party or a person. the libertarian party continues her present the constitutional principles that i agree with. john: so you reregistered because of the specter that trump is the presumptive nominee. mary: no, i did not. john: the timing is incidental, is it not? we're going to go to a heartbreak. -- to a hard break. ♪

mark: talking about all things trump and ryan is not prepared

to support. mary matalin and dan senor is here. is there no connection between trump being the presumptive nominee and your party? mary: let me make this clear, i'm never hillary, i'm always liberty. and i have said it publicly here and many places, after two successive blowout elections with the nonresponse from washington, a lot of conservatives are angry with the party. the party was falling apart. i will never vote for hillary. mark: you left the republican party. mary: i'm a provisional trum steer. i know three things about his economic policy and everything we need to know. mark: if your husband left the

democratic party, would that be a big story? mary: it would contribute to marital tran quilt. dan now. going to you will never be for trump. dan: i'm never for trump. mark: what separates you. dan: paul thought this primary would go for a while. back expected cruz to out. the notion on tuesday, to give one example, on tuesday, donald trump accuses ted cruz's father being involved in the assassination of president kennedy assassination and and this is a little absurd.

chris christie needs to know the idea and people are bridging. people need to find out what the problem is. this guy is a problematic guy. and there is so much to talk about here. john: this question of the bushes, the two presidents bush not saying they are going to stay out of it. dan: it's a huge deal. here's the point. to be clear. george herbert walker bush has been involved in every presidential election, endorsed. and this is donald trump's problem. he has fractured the party and such a big deal that two former republican presidents aren't going to support him. >> have they asked you for your

advice? mary: i'm not going to comment that. trump gets what he wants and if he puts together a good ground game i'm confident that trump will run. that says some things trumps and when it comes to the bushes and famous and if someone said of your son or brother, you would have the same reaction. more to do with their family and affections. mark: the party is divided. the speaker of the house, the state of the house -- of massachusetts said he will not vote for trump. what would you tell them they should do?

mary: stop your high school antics and keep suburban women d and scotus, either cruz or mike lee, iron clad and flush out your economic policies and stand up straight and comb your hair. mark: that is four. john: so, never trump for you, you have some connection to the very enforcements that used to constitute the never trump movement, the operatives. the folks are still out there. an: i think there are some donors who will just sit on the sidelines and sit out of the race and some donors who are looking for ways to find a candidate to be on the stage

with trump and clinton. i'm not going to mention names. john: the kinds of people they might want to -- interesting is an guy. and we could use someone like him to help make the case for conservatives. to save the downbalance to potentially throw this in the house of representatives and win and to make a statement about the future of the conservative movement, it should not be in the hand of this dwy who is hijacking it and doesn't believe n conservative principles. they should have someone to vote for and some donors will go to trump. but the big question they are asking, i'm going to be for trump but i'm not going to dovene ate.

jon jon mary you worked for president bush and donald trump ending a tweet saying i love hispanics. whether you think this isn't in the category, whether you think -- what do you make of that as attempt to reach latino outreach. mary: let me challenge and disagree with all of you all. the reason trump was able to high yack the republican party. the underlying element is weak. the party was weak. the party has not been for successive elective cycles responsive to their base. so he can't -- i think all of these antics could only be completed by him because he has

this capacity to flick off any attack which he will be able to do with hillary clinton. the more you attack him, the stronger he gets. john: you are a communications professional. what do you think about dwonled tweet's. mary: i don't tweet and that's what people like. but i don't think it is dispositive. he will have african-americans and millenials because he is a character and has a good message. john: and you think trump has no chaps to win. >> correct. mary -- mary: we love each other.

mark: what states do you think trump could win? mary: let me repeat something. we have been wrong at every single junk tr. and they are angry about it. i didn't say trump is reagan. i'm saying that people are sick of political correctness and he has a highly motivated, low pro pensity voter base. mark: what states is he going so win? mary: you guys have been moving into the purple category from colorado, new mexico, i don't think pennsylvania. but there are enough states. he has to win florida and ohio. and i think he could possibly win some of those northwestern states that have gone democratic lately. >> romney got 42%.

mark: what percentage do we think he will get? you go through these states? dan: i don't think he can preserve the romney map and have huge implications. mary: right. currently. today. but we are political light years away from the political and general election. and we call it pivoting and he has a lot of assets and he has professionals around him now. and i do think he will get a percentage of nontraditional nonrepublican persons. i'm an anti-hillary clinton person. et's not get this mushed up. mark: we have all been getting

this humbled. dan: we have all gotten this wrong. give it he can look presidential, i find that, i see it in the press. give a speech. he is pivoting to looking presidential and that is one -- h and reading a tell teleprompter. john: people germly agree. talk about his new finance chair. dan: this is someone who is not known in the political fund raidsing circles and i think -- trump needs to raise half a billion to a billion dollars in a few months. they put this together in a few years. this is a complex process. he is going to start deploying

the money and chosen someone to do it who is not known. he may have access, but at the end of the day, as much as everyone talks about, you need to build the resources. and high dollar bundling operation to run the campaign against hillary clinton. bundle. per pacs and mary: my proof is exist ant and sanders and cruz and trump's unique capacity to get plenty of earned media. >> let's end on that. mary agreed with mark. ly beer tarian lib party. >> coming up, two former obama

speech writers weigh in on trump and clinton. we will be right back.

>> maybe we should have had our next guest read the telepromptp

ter. former speech writers. you guys are here and you are both highly qualified communications professionals. and i want to ask you about the topic that everyone is in our world talking about. >> with the climate change? john: climate change. but first, i want to ask you if it were you and you were advising donald trump, would you sending out a tweet out a tweet? >> i would be falling from trump tower. that's not a good tweet because a salad is not like traditional dish. i don't think -- it's a cuban

liking white bread. >> the biggest problem with that tweet. outreach tino strategist. >> that had nothing to do with the taco bell. i don't know, it's like -- it's funny, a couple of days ago thought we were going to get a disciplined donald trump and not see the person we saw in the primary and i don't know if he can pull that off. that's who he is. >> give me a break. >> that's true. >> it is true. s. these are issue john: are they equal. one better than the other? don't say you object to the premise. can a candidate's performance

matter? >> we are in a national. he is not a normal candidate. when a plane crashes, ok, a bunch of things have to go wrong. safety, hydraulics and we are one mistake from the plane crashing into the making. is trump a good politician? he is a nightmare. >> you are overestimating. >> he captured 40% of the republican primary. and i think in those three months he was able to consolidate support within the party and the party that is very broken and anyone underestimate, it is the state of the republican party. john: i want to double back, you say the republican is broken, control the house and the

senate, most governorships. >> it's only broken in the presidential party. >> or even soon win statewide in states that are purpose willish. >> who is the better political athlete? >> hillary clinton. >> because? >> she has been through public life a long time. i think donald trump will continue to send out taco tweets for the next six months and he'll turn off large, large majorities of people and she won't. her approval ratings are slightly under water now but at the end of the day, you aren't going to win the election with ratings. ve >> i guess that if you put aside

donald trump and he does come off as authentic and does things that are quite charming. but that's not what it takes. there is a little value to being disciplined to maintaining a coherent message over time and not saying things that able yent the country. and his qualities, he is not geared to win a national election. >> i want to come back to you, i have a vivid memory, one of the nights during the fight where trump did one of his performances, the first one down in florida, you tweeted, that was a great speech and urging democrats, go register and are you saying that wasn't an acknowledgement that he had

skills. >> less performance skills. he has certain messages that cross across lines. the message combining anti-trade with anti-wall street, he cobbled together a message that was disciplined can appeal to different people. when the wisconsin primary happened and totally unaddition plind he said if there is a world where donald trump could stay on his issues message he could be competitive, that time has passed, he has done so much damage. and so few people in the country who haven't formed an opinion, that the di emp is cast. >> so, she has -- she has a

challenge going forward. likely to be the democratic minee and bernie sanders has enormous energy and she is not connected well at all. >> i would say come partively, he is winning young voters and needs people to vote for her. as a communication and policy challenge, what would you advise her to do to fix that problem? >> the most important thing that she is doing is making clear to the bernie sanders' side that she will fight for their side and i think bernie is going to play a big event and hillary clinton is going to assuage that worry. the democratic primary has been ordinary. more traditional candidate and

more of a candidate and more liberal. that is great. but the republican side is very abnormal and that is scary and the reservations that they have towards hillary, there is going to be a purpose to get behind her. mark: the concept of being the republican nominee. >> we limb with the random threat and the great thing of our system all these checks are coming to fruition and way too close to something very, very dangerous to my comfort. . ♪

what does donald trump think tonight, quote, i'm not ready to speak speaker ryan's agenda. they have been treated so badly for so long and time for politicians to put them first. john: i don't think love is in the air. mark: more on ryan-trump. if you are watching us in washington d.c.. "bloomberg west." floo

mark: let's begin with the first check. house speaker paul ryan won't support trump's nomination. the he said i'm not ready to do

that at this point. i'm not there right now. he continued, what is required, we unify this party. former republican presidential nominee will skip the convention this summer in cleveland, and march romney delivered an attack on trump calling him a phony and a fraud. n and karr, alberta is under a state of emergency. and wildfires have torched 1 husme 600 homes in forth mcmurray. and more than 80,000 residents have fled. and at least 28 people are dead following an air strike on a