♪ >> from our studios in new york city, mrs. charlie rose. isrlie: president obama considered one of the greatest communicators to be in the white house. he has drawn comparison to martin luther king jr.. here's a look at his each last year, commemorating the 50th anniversary of bloody sunday. obama: we are well served to renumber that at the time of the marches, many in power condemned, rather than praised them. back then they were called communist, or half breeds or outside agitators.

degenerates,ral and worse, they were called everything but the name their parents gave them. their faith was questioned. their lives were threatened. their patriotism, challenged. and yet what could be more american than what happened in this place? charlie: the president has also shown a talent for comedy. he delivered his final white house correspondents dinner speech. here's a look at some of his jokes. president obama: if this material works well, i will use it at goldman sachs next year. earn me some serious tubman's. as you know, "spotlight" is a film about investigative andnalist, the resources autonomy to chase down a true and told the powerful accountable -- and hold the powerful accountable, best

fantasy film since "star wars." jon favreau served as the white house director of each writing. he left washington in 2013 to go found fenway strategies. john leavitt served as a presidential beach writer -- speechwriter for three years. specialnch served as assistant to the president, senior speechwriter, he left to work for funny or die. i am pleased to have all of them at this table tonight. the big question first, we are going to talk about funny and serious -- which is harder? the comedy or the great arc of speech that serves the nation about who we are and what the issue is? >> i have to say the latter. [laughter] >> jokes are hard. that thedifferent in comedy is very hard because i

think, these guys know well, writing comedy for anyone is difficult. running for a politician, a president, is particularly difficult. there are plenty of funny things we cannot say. if you are an office -- a president. that is much more of a group effort. selecting which jokes. the serious beaches are difficult because you want to be in the moment. often times -- you want to say something new and different. when the president has been giving speeches for eight years, trying to keep desk you come crash is a challenge. trying to keep him fresh is a challenge. >> the jokes are not the most important thing. -- >> ok, sure. charlie: they told me you were this i. -- this way.

>> i do think a big differences, if you write an applause line, and you don't get it, no one knows. if you write a joke and no one laughs, that is a moment -- i didn't say it. charlie: he knows that as well. he has been proud, and you should be. he knows what it does not work. usend we found jokes have a , even in a serious speech. they are risky. it is hard to its line wyatt is worth the risk -- why it is worth the risk. if it works, people will hear about it and talk about it. and then we say, that is what we are trying for. it is a difficult thing to say, even a you don't need it and the speech will be fine without it, we think it is worth saying something funny. conan o'brien or seth meyers, or whoever, they are usually pretty impressed the president had the sense of

audience to deliver a punchline at the right time. they associate that with professionals. but is nothing you need to you as president. charlie: i have learned from working with some riders, it is often important to learn when the joe kenn's. -- joke and. -- ends. once in agood timing, while he will have an ad lib. he will smile if it goes well. something, does comedy best comedians say it is not a good idea, he last of the joke before the punchline. >> i think he is nonetheless -- he has done that last. there is a version where he performs the joke, but the best version is when you slipped in a joking between. have seen it closely

on a reed, and he is coming across it on a prompter and thinks it is funnier. happier thankes me when he is accidentally laughing at a joke during a speech. just, ait is also professional comedienne is laughing at their own joke, that is a breach of professional ethics. part of the joke is the president telling a joke. i think he understands that. he understands what makes it funny. you're looking for jokes that make more sense for the president to tell than a comedian. charlie: what is the rule for starting out? is there a rule? here is where you have to start. ?s it divan -- dive in >> the first thing we are looking for is making sure there is a joke for every topic. this year it's like, we know we need donald trump jokes. we need a hillary joke, a joe biden joke, a republican joke.

we need a merrick garland joke. there are certain topical things in the news that you want a joke for. when everyone sends in jokes, we put them in topics. that is the first thing. >> for starting out, we are doing that, but i think in the beginning, it is always the search for a line that is and a jokend pithy that kind of says, this is what this moment is about. this year he said the thing about this being his last, perhaps the last white house correspondents dinner. charlie: you want to hit it out of the park your first time. you want to grab them and keep them engaged. >> that first joke -- >> here are three or four we think will be standouts and you pay some. -- pace them.

flow so that ebb and at specific moments you are bringing people in. to go to thential remarks and delete jokes that are not yours. that is the final step. click make sure that is in the e-mail archive. -- >> make sure that people know that is in the e-mail archive. >> this year was 30 minutes. >> 30 minutes? >> didn't you know that? charlie: i am often told the speech is not be more than 10 minutes. >> this one was. >> there was a video. charlie: the video should be given a medal. >> i was waiting for him to take credit. we loved it. >> a lot of people helped.

this is the best way i could take credit. how humble in my -- am i? >> the original draft had john boehner is a bit part. when we called john boehner's people, they said the speaker would be so happy to help. he was so willing to be involved, we rip -- we rewrote the ending. charlie: he was good and it -- anin it. >> they were great. charlie: take a look. here it is on video. >> i know who i need to talk to. hey. it's barack. can we get together? ♪ now that is a great movie. they give me. they gets me every time -- it gets me every time. ♪ so, do you have any advice for

me? john boehner: now you want my advice? first, stop sending me linked in requests. secondly, you have all the time in the world of figure this out. you can be you for a while. if you know how to do that? president obama: so i can just be me? i can wear my mom jeans and peace. -- in peace. there is a lot of reasons to say no to doing something like this. is grade is, especially with this white house, a lot of people want to say yes. adam and his team, we come up with an idea and they are like -- they make it happen. it is a really good team of people coming together. >> we should also say that tyler, our former colleague who run a process this year and did ofreat job, you have a video the vice president, the first lady, the president, the former speaker of the house, plus a

monologue. doing all of that, plus three other speeches -- that's a lot. may have other things to do. charlie: didn't bin laden happen? >> the day of the dinner. also the day he ordered the raid. he and david and i had a meeting to go through jokes. we were told, wait outside for a few minutes because he is on the phone with the general in afghanistan. we will like him can't believe we have to wait, these jokes are important. >> we will like, come on. charlie: one more conversation with one more general. then, he is like, love the jokes, everything is great. i have one edit. there is one joke with the punchline, bin laden. i would use some other bad guy around the world. some other weird. let's use someone else. we said, that's not funny.

he said, trust me. bin laden has been played out. >> we were so glad he didn't have any other notes. wonaid, all right, you the vote. >> he had to open the door and deal with us. >> i had been to the white house -- charlie: did he come back and put it on television that sunday? >> i had been in the white house for about three or four weeks, i sent the bin laden joke in, i got the edit back and i remember being annoyed. i thought, i haven't been here for a long time, but i am pretty sure bin laden was funnier. i almost e-mailed, the last minute i didn't, and the next day i said, i get it. ♪

charlie: let's talk about serious speeches. the speech he made in 2004. >> that is where i met him for the first time. charlie: at the convention. >> i was working for john kerry. i was a speechwriter for him. my job was to be at the convention backstage and make sure the speeches reflected the message is the john kerry campaign, to the extent there was one. we got a call from folks on the

road saying he had a line in his beach that barack obama had in his speech. we are going to need you to take it out of barack obama's speech. i was like 22. and i thought, while i going to do this? i go up to him and asked him to take up . -- take up the line. he said, i read telling me i have to take out my favorite line? i lost consciousness for a few minutes, and then someone else came up to me and introduced himself, and he said, son, let's go outside and you and i will rewrite the line. everything went fine. years later when i was in the senate office and obama had hired me, we were all reminiscing about the old days and he said, does anyone remember in the convention when that little kid came up to me and asked me to take up that line? and i said, that was me. he said, i would never have hired you.

he wrote that speech. charlie: did he write the race speech? >> he wrote a lot of it. they decided to give him three days before. i got a call saturday morning, the speech was given on a tuesday. the president wanted to deliver a major speech on race, can you get to it? i said, no, not until i speak to them. i spoke to him that night. he called. he said, i would like you to do a first draft. i'm going to give you a few thoughts off the top of my head. he said, it will be stream of consciousness. and outlined every detail of the speech over the phone to the point where it was like, one is this, when a will be this, two a, two b. he and thought about it for a long time. i did a draft on sunday, he stayed up until 4:00 in the morning that night. he sent back the speech.

i saw little paragraphs of mine in a speech and the rest of it was blue, track changes he had rewritten. charlie: even though you had pasted on his outline. a lot of it -- >> a lot of the structure was there. i gave him were lines that would been -- would be another president's speeches. >> i can no more disown him, than i can disown the black community. i can no more disown him than i can disown my white grandmother. me, an who helped raise woman who sacrificed again and again for me, a woman who loves me as much as she loves anything in this world, but a woman who once confessed her fear of black men who passerby on the street -- half her by on the street and on more than one occasion had uttered racial stereotypes that make me cringe. charlie: my point is he seems to take it seriously. not only have skill, but he

takes it seriously. he appreciates it to the heart. >> if you talk to most speechwriters and confidence they will not always say their boss makes them look good. with this president, he is a really good writer. that is different then -- there are a lot of people who have plenty of lyrical skills, they have not written a book like he did. -- plenty of political skills, they have not written a book like he did. he wrote a book at 30. that's something a lot of presidents have not done. >> learning about writing, a lot of people don't do speechwriting for some money that could. -- we haveike a job all written for other politicians, every time you get ace these back from barack obama it had his tiny chicken scratch on it. we were excited. it was like, i wonder what he did with the speech. charlie: would you say that? would you take xeroxes of it? >> i probably should have done more. >> i did. it is not just that it is good,

you're proud of what you wrote, and over time you get a sense on how to take on this voice. it becomes more natural. scrawl onobama would coming to add, and you'd say, that sounds exactly like him. youharlie: my oppression as are the funniest guy in the room -- my impression is you are the funniest guy in the room. it is about style, use of language -- >> i was very, the joke speech is the most fun. the things i am the most proud of our the more serious speeches. health care. economic speeches. wrote the line about if you like your insurance, you can keep it. jon: have their you. -- how dare you. >> it was cool to do both of these things. i think that the serious

speeches are the part you think, that is when you feel the weight of what you are doing. charlie: is he going to write and deliver a farewell to the nation speech? >> i imagine. everyone does one. i am betting that, of course they have not announced the lineup or asked, but at the convention i imagine he will give a speech. i feel like that is a big one. charlie: he will reach out to the same writers? same writers from the white house correspondents dinner? >> cody and his team, i imagine he will be the main author. probably barack obama will write a lot. i imagine there will be a farewell address. in this age, this speech you give to the camera with no crowd will be different from a speech and a big convention hall. >> he is going to be on the trail. charlie: the most famous speech

that ronald reagan gave, not the one that peggy wrote -- which you all recognize. before that it was the speech in 1964. it launched his national campaign. did he do that in front of an audience, as i remember? was it on television? he had been giving it as a spokesman -- >> ge. our to introduce himself. charlie: it became a launching pad for him to become governor of california. who else are the great? -- grates? -- greats? ted sorensen. he was an advisor. he was a right-hand. he was kennedy's intellectual.

along with other people like --icitor -- it's less injure slessginer. >> it makes sense because you have to get inside the person's had that you're writing for. different speechwriting operations have different structures. i think i always try to make sure if a speech writer was working on a certain speech with the president, that person spent a lot of time with the president, talking to them. i think when speechwriting fails becausenot succeed is you have a lot of layers of people between the person that you're writing for in the person who is actually doing the writing. , othermunication advisor, some speechwriter that is and let you to have interaction -- doesn't let you have interaction. >> it is the game of telephone. going up and down the chain, it

is almost impossible for it to look authentic. -- att point it it is not that point it is not. charlie: what do you do if you have been writing each of for the president -- writing speeches for the president? >> if you are me you go to work for funny or die. charlie: you are in hollywood? >> yes. charlie: you have been writing screenwriting. you created a company. >> created a company. though i still cannot stay out of politics. i hang around bloomberg. charlie: where would you like to be in two years? >> in two years. [laughter] >> i would like to be thinking and writing and talking about politics. i think i will still be doing that. charlie: writing?

>> writing. maybe all of it. charlie: politics is at the center of your lives. you get thise chance as a speechwriter to be part of the conversation. yes it is a step removed, but you are proud. i don't know what my comparative advantages -- no one else could write that sentence exactly this way. think, iout and you want to be a part of that and have my chance to say something or say what i think and hopefully people agree. i feel like that urge does not go away. >> once you become good at something, it turns out people want you to do more. something i had not anticipated five or six years ago when i was an intern in d.c.. charlie: i once asked ted williams, why baseball? hit it well, and people praise to me, and the more they praise me the more i did it. and then i was playing baseball.

i never thought about another sport besides fishing. i got confidence. >> thank you for having us. charlie: back in a moment. stay with us. ♪

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the billboard music awards, live sunday may 22nd, 8/5 pacific, only on abc. ♪ charlie: the revival of the 2005 play starring jeff daniels and michelle williams. could play focuses on a middle-aged man confronted by a

young woman whom he had had a sexual relationship when she was a minor. the hollywood reporter calls the play a stark examination of love, pain, and loss that is compassionate and unforgiving. it is nominated for three tony awards, the best revival of a play, best performance by a lead actor, and best performance by a leading actress. joining me now are the two stars of the play, jeff daniels and michelle williams. thank you for coming. what does this play mean to you? it is exhausting. it is demanding. what is it about this play for you? jeff: all of that. the demanding part really was a lure to come back. i had done it in 2007 off-broadway. i left it, feeling i had done

what i was supposed to do with it. when scott called and said let's bring it to broadway. usually it is been there done that. it was like, i hadn't done it right. it was one of those roles that you knew there was more there. that was the leader, the ure, thee -- the l challenge of turning whatever it was you did, inside out. re-examining it with somebody like michelle. making it -- what it turned out to be was like a new, completely new experience. not just because michelle was but joe was new to it, and die, joe the director got it. charlie: you saw it with fresh eyes? jeff: there is more third a fairly. what i did not have before that i have now is the addiction. the powerlessness that this character has for underage

girls. it is wrong, criminal, horrific, and he is powerless against it. addicty alcoholic or will tell you, you are powerless -- against that thing. i didn't have that before. i did not include that. it certainly informs what we do from page one on, when the thing you're trying to deny is that you even have a problem with, even if she is older, just walked into the door. to an alcoholic, it is a bottle of whiskey. charlie: here is a man who committed a crime, paid a price, and all of the sudden the young woman, girl shows up. why did she show up? what is it about what this expense has done to her that demands -- this experience has done to her that the man's she come back? michelle: she was left with

entirely unresolved. would you find out through the course of the play. she was left at a crucial moment in their relationship. and has been trying to piece together what happened. wyatt happened. -- why it happened. how it happened. she was try to piece that together for the last 15 years. she stumbles across a photo of him, looking happy. looking adjusted. charlie: and she is not? michelle: she is none of those things. she is entirely alone. like wasr who seemed the only person who wanted to protect her or look out for her is gone. she is not in a relationship. you find out that has not worked out well. she is utterly alone and sees this photo. i think there is a lot of, what she thinks she wants in this

meeting. her surface desire to you million him -- to humiliate him, alarm him, scare him. charlie: make him pay? michelle: to make him pay. i think that is what she comes in thinking. his reaction to her, her reaction to seeing him. she loses control of the situation. charlie: where are they? forward.rawn you have a thousand questions. you don't know what is part of the intrigue. you do not know where they are going. you have no idea how will it will end -- how it will end. jeff: even the ending, which is fairly ambiguous. charlie: very ambiguous. jeff: there are a lot of questions about him, he has been deny, deny, deny.

i'm not one of them. charlie: there is a moment. jeff: there is a moment where everything gets thrown out going, who is he? it is tough, tough. i have never done a play like this where you can feel the audience bracing themselves from page one. you can feel. and youyou do a comedy go, oh my god, the waves of laughter, this is dead silence. these are some of the smartest beard -- theatergoers and highly opinionated and junctional. -- judgment till. -- judgemenetal. they do not move. that is a wonderful compliment. not only for us, but for what david wrote. charlie: it is both mentally and physically demanding. you are constantly there, moving. is uh, i yeah, it

don't do anything during the day. i all -- all i do is sleep. i sleep through the day and do the show for an hour and a half. -- it is somennot sort of radical form of exercising. this broadway diet, i cannot even us -- eat enough to sustain a sensible weight because of what the show demands. it is physically -- we are both covered -- jeff: the tank is empty as they say in sports. we have discovered. we tried, in previews, to find an easier way to kind of -- there is one way.

charlie: when the curtain opens you know what you're in for that day. that night. it is the same thing it was last night. you know, it compels you to do it. jeff: you have to jump on the horse while it is galloping. --se old westerns where they you have to come in the room, both of us, gallup -- on a galloping horse. whatever you have to do before the show to get the horse galloping in your mind. we start where a lot of plays climax. as far as the passion and intensity. once you get on top of that horse, michelle -- the show gets easier to do. it is a miserable experience if you didn't quite get up there. michelle: there is no way to cheated -- cheat it. there is no way to make it easier. trying to make it easier only makes it harder.

charlie: did you see this in rehearsal? it would be this demanding? michelle: when i decided to do this, i just came off a year of doing from january to thanksgiving, doing kata very -- doing hocabaret. my sense of what was difficult was stretched to a whole new level. i knew it would be demanding, but i knew it was not as long and did not involve eating and dancing. -- seating -- singing and dancing. there was a monologue in the middle child never done. -- which i had never done. the way i figured it out was to only do this. there was no real life beyond the play. isrlie: do you know where he , as you experienced it as

deeply inside of it as you both are, is it ambiguous for you? michelle: very. whatever jeff knows about his sheacter is not stuff that knows. jeff: in her sleeve do not discuss this. -- in rehearsal you do not discuss that. charlie: few and a sense -- you in a sense have a sense of why he is trying to deny this attraction. you have a sense of why he cannot. how would you define that? some sense of -- you have to know, otherwise you can't -- jeff: you have to have a plan. whatever it is that happens to your character, you might have to set it up earlier. that is the change having to come back to. i can plant that there.

now it makes sense. it is a painful sort of sense. but there it is. charlie: can you tell us where you think he is at the end? should we not say that? jeff: he is still confused. charlie: tell me journey he has taken. jeff: they have the trial. he then served a six-year. charlie: even the circumstances leading to the trial are ambiguous. jeff: who was right, who was wrong. charlie: what exactly happened? where was she? jeff: the night that they did go and theerry, miscommunication, and went back to get her and i think was true, and she was not there. he has created a whole new life, new name. new woman.

there is a relationship. new job or they know him as a fictitious -- she walks in. the bottle of whiskey -- right there. i am fighting her. i am also fighting in me, i am not one of them. i could be talking to the mirror. her, he sees at 12. that is new for me. charlie: even at the moment she comes back. he sees 12. jeff: constantly seeing 12. charlie: does she think she is 12? michelle: i think when this kind of trauma happens at an early age, i think art of you stays there forever -- part of you stays there forever. that is what is so -- he gets to

leave. she is the monster that he created. he can walk out of the room and she will never be able to leave. charlie: what is interesting as well is the -- what kind of person was she when she saw him? michelle: when she was 12? that's another sort of -- it is why the play -- charlie: what did she know? michelle: it is likely exists -- it is widely play exist -- why the play exist. she is the good guy he is the bad guy. she is full of spikes and damage and difficulties. feeltart to think, do i tenderly towards the person or do i feel more tenderly, surprisingly, towards this person. the play goes back and forth by that. who can you believe? who can you align yourself with? he was on the right side?

hopefully there is a clarifying moment in the play towards the parentn it becomes -- a -- apparent. jeff: or everything gets thrown up in the air and you don't know anything. that is me. charlie: he doesn't know anything. jeff: he knows. but whether the audience knows. there is a lot of is he or isn't he? charlie: that is part of the magic of the play. jeff: and always will be. actser he asked on it -- on it or not. charlie: once you are you always are. jeff: i -- yes. very rarely do you hear about someone who did it once. isrlie: what is interesting the predator, non-predator thing, you don't know in terms

of whether his history before that. you know that he needs her. -- he meets her. he is interested. , it doesn'tderstand matter because the age, it is statutory. we don't really know who she is. michelle: who she was then? you get pieces of information dropped about -- he says you are strong. you know what you wanted. you are full of big ideas. you are worldly. you knew yourself. think, i, i don't don't buy it. 12 is 12. but for her it is confusing. what did i do. also it felt good. she says, i was so happy, and love. it is confusing.

she felt good, that she was told it was bad. it seemed to everyone for life, but she still yearns to be with him. be close to him. that is what she has been trying to untangle. ofrlie: and author was here a book that is a memoir in terms of talking about his father. had become, had gotten a young girlfriend pregnant. he kept saying, it stole my life. it stole my life. you got a sense what happened was stole her life. michelle: exactly. jeff: i can change my name and move away. but she is living with it. michelle: which is what happens at the end. he leaves the room and she is there forever. calling out for him. charlie: and he is gone.

how do you pace yourself? you have that monologue. jeff: we do? charlie: you don't. is that part of it? jeff: we have thought about this. i have likened it to sprinting a marathon. charlie: you cannot sprint a marathon. jeff: we do. we do one show at a time, as fast as we can, race -- face first into the wall. every night. we both have done shows where -- i get it. eight shows a week, month five, you phone it in. you are thinking about what you're going to eat in the middle of your monologue, because you can. you cannot. michelle: we only have each other. i know we will work on the show until the day we close it. the play bears that kind of attention. the more you give to it, the more gives back. the more it tells you about who these people are and what

happened. the more ideas you get. we are constantly trying things. because we only have each other cannotnspired by -- we let the other one down. i never want jeff to be sitting there thinking, there she goes again. jeff: do something, come on. because of film, which is so isferent take, take two different than three and four. we cover ourselves as actors by giving five different versions. that is what we bring to the stage. it is not a program to presentational broadway thing. people on it is two stage, reacting. charlie: they're going to make a film? michelle: i think they have. charlie: and they called it "una."

is it because it is seen as her story? michelle: i don't know. i don't know anything about -- jeff: it is hers. charlie: even though this is the guy that has come to grips of what he might be. whatever there was, he finds out, he knows. she has presented him with a challenge again. jeff: whatever they did in the movie, they probably funneled it. michelle: possibly. , i don'ty narrowed know blackbird. it might just be a six page monologue. charlie: what does the director do? jeff: i think what he did for us this,ood directors do especially if you have done it

before, like me. you come in thinking it might be this or that, he waits it out and says, it can also be this. choiced time again joe's on what i should do in this moment or that scene was better than what i would've thought of. that i think is his strength. charlie: what you would do is better than what you have thought of? jeff: yes. i am winging it. instincts. sometimes you go, take that. but other times you go, what about this? and you go, yes, of course. charlie: same thing? michelle: a reason i really wanted to come back to do broadway again is in theater you are really directed. you really feel like you have a partnership with someone. after a while, after you have been doing this as long as i have and you have, it gets boring to be yourself over and

over again. you are limited by your experiences, your processing them, your understanding of them. a great director can really help you look at things from a different angle so you are not repeating yourself. they open up when door and you open up 10 of the windows. newof the señor in a territory because someone has, with their experience and intellect, they have taken you in a new direction. that is what makes it exciting again. you grow beyond yourself. charlie: in a play with this kind of confrontation, do you guys, on purpose, avoid each other? in other words, you will not go out and have sunday lunch. jeff: part of it is just me. i have to socialize? charlie: you are spending half of your life with this woman. jeff: 12 hours a week.

we try to make it fun. it is such a brutal -- charlie: how do you make it fun? jeff: you look for jokes after the show. did you see the guy in row three? the one that was sleeping? you just lighten it up. a lightness to get back to the dressing room. otherwise it is pretty dark. charlie: will you be happy to see it end? jeff: now. --no. michelle: i realize we had five weeks and i thought today, i will miss it. only 40 more shows. only 40 more times? how has it changed for you from day one until today? do you see her the same? have you learned more about her? has living inside of her changed a sense of how to can -- but --

portray her and understand her? yes, but i think it always does, the more time you spend. you go through phases. you go through a phase where it seems old and you're not learning new information. you break through and find some sort of other territory. things, is doing always trying things out, reading books or trying a new class. trying new things to keep myself , to keep feeling new. charlie: there is a vote piece -- vogue piece in which you said, when things are spoken aloud there is prayer -- power, the darkness exist in the aloneness. michelle: i think that is where she has been her whole life. which is why she unfurls that monologue.

she needs to share. she has not been able to share the. the only person who was there has been gone for 15 years. she needs him to fill in details. she also needs to fill in her own details of the store to let him know what happened. she has been alone in a dark room with all of these shameful secrets for so long. they have been eating away at her and destroying her. i think she thinks she can reclaim part of her self by confronting him. unfortunately that is not what happens. charlie: could it have happened? i'm talking about the character. could ray have done something in those encounters to have, knowing what you think about where his head is about young girls, could he have somehow, is there some way that he could need without her it being sexual? jeff: no. charlie: no.

jeff: too strong. charlie: here is what is interesting to me. -- itoverpowering couldn't -- that is what his wiring or dna. jeff: deny, deny, deny all you want. there it is. that is how you are wired. the fact that she comes in and she is 27, and now it is still what he did. he runs out of the room. he is as screwed up as he was. maybe more so. can a 40-year-old and a 12-year-old camera --, can this be the love of their lives? for those -- for a lot of the play you think maybe. charlie: you forget she is 12. jeff: one of the things about the production is, don't forget the 12-year-old.

charlie: 12 becomes the number because these two people had a thing happen. he was the responsible adult and he should've known better. he should have controlled. jeff: sure should have. yeah. what is here is also interesting, the notion that you don't think there was anything he could do. this was in him. he can deny and try to build a new thing, but in the end, it is there. jeff: it is in me. it may me believe. he believes that. he believes he is not one of them. otherr he wants to do any realizes of woman, he he is addicted to young girls as he was way back when. charlie: even though now he is. jeff: still there. still there. charlie: where is she at the end?

unsatisfied. michelle: i think she has regressed. yeah. i think there is a point in the play when the lights go out. she is left alone in a room, which is nearing a story she has just told -- mirroring a story about what she just told about not knowing what was happening. after she tells that story about the events that have happened to her, the lights go out, she is left alone again. all of these things start to trigger these early experiences that she had with him of being abandoned and in love. on her what happens conscious motivation for coming is to make him pay. per on -- her unconscious motivation is to have her 12-year-old needs met. to be special again. to be taken care of again.

to be happy. they come close to it. away becauseacks he does not want to acknowledge them. jeff: whoever i was then. wants to take care of her. charlie: you are still that. jeff: i am not that now. yes you are. no, i am not. charlie: this makes me want to go back and see it. right now. jeff: i know where i will be. can't start without us. charlie: thank you. it is a pleasure to have you back. thank you, michelle. it is through june. it is running at the alaska theater until june 11. you cannot miss it. please go. thank you for joining us. see you next time. ♪

john: i'm john heilemann. mark: and i'm mark halperin. and "with all due respect" to corey lewandowski, when it comes to your boss's running mate, remember, you have options. >> paul o'neill of the yankees. stand up, paul. paul, you originally come from ohio, right? oh, wow. paul o'neill. >> ♪ john: happy election day, sports fans. it is true, voters in west