♪ >> from our studios in new york city, this is "charlie rose." argentina minister of foreign affairs is here. he became the country's first democratically elected sincevative president 1916. she spent over a decade in new york at the united nations, from 2004-2008, she was deputy executive director of the world food program. later she was undersecretary general for the department of field support. she is expected to become argentina's candidate for un's

secretary-general. the post ban ki-moon will leave at the end of the year. welcome. >> thank you for having me. charlie: we are fortunate to have you here. you have said some interesting things. your country has always had a kind of interesting journey, sometimes arduous, sometimes disappointing. i want to get a sense of where you think argentina is today.we will talk about the yuan as well. about thee going -- you and as well. you will be going around the world. you said, it is clear what we have to do today is show the world argentina is trustworthy, and we have become a partner that can be talked with an part even ang-term project, historically there may be proof we have not always behaved the way we should. >> i have said that. charlie: a candid statement. >> i stand by that. anyink that as with

relationship between people, it is also true between countries. that trustworthiness. the notion of the value of your word. has been part of the problem historically, going from one view to the other one, which tensions increated our relationship with the world. you don't change things overnight. charlie there was an interesting thing. it sent the following, i'm paraphrasing -- it said, is a rockabilly it is because saddam is the way he is, or is saddam the way he is because iraq is the way it is? you could say, has argentina had the leadership it had had because of argentina, or is argentina the way it is because of the leadership?

>> i do believe leadership has an effect. theink leadership shapes agenda. that was the case probably more so in the 20th century. unow the dynamics are a bit different. i think argentina had a very strong populist history. it sent the tone for the way we are, the culture we have, the -- how we behave and how we stand before the rest of the world. sometimes we don't our viewsur feet, and the strong enough, because of this populist approach we have had. charlie: how do you become foreign minister? >> you should ask the president.

[laughter] charlie: i assume he told you. >> he did not. he said people talked to him about me. we knew each other from my time in the private sector. one day in october i got a phone call. you,id, susana, how are congratulations. it was between the first and second round. he said, i want you to be my foreign minister. he caught me by surprise. cannot deny the fact that you called me really surprised me. i would like to have a tete-a-tete with you. -- did you tell ban ki-moon that you are going to talk? minister malcorra: yes, the only one who knew, who by the way, said do it.

i met with the then candidate. the next day, he became the president-elect.two days later, i said yes . i week later i was in when osiris. charlie: that has to be asked a week later i was in buenos aires. in buenoslater i was aires. charlie: that has to be interesting. and exciting. all of us loved where we were wrong, that is something that is the connection between person and land and to be able to serve. . that is a wonderful opportunity. minister malcorra: it is. for me, there was sort of a homework in my life. i was at university during the dictatorship. i was active in politics. at that time, you disappeared, all you left -- or you left.

there was always something pending, that i had to serve my country.i was very happy with what i was doing in the united nations. going back to politics was not an option. i'm out of that. this was a way to leverage my experience and really add value to projects, that hopefully will restart argentina in a mature way, and relations with the rest of the world. charlie: let's start with the united states. what is the relation ship? minister malcorra: it is excellent. it used to be we were talking about carnal relations. it is not carnal, it is mature. the u.s. has an interest, we have ours. we find a common base and discuss things we should, because there are opportunities. charlie: what are those opportunities? clearly, incorra:

everything that has to do with trade, we can offer things to the u.s., a large market that is very interested. our capacity to create jobs, which is one of our themes. but investments are also a huge opportunity. we are going with a very important infrastructure renewables and parts. all the things the u.s. is good at, meaning the private sector in the u.s. there is everything to win. issues aboutof the argentina, other than the economic issues, which were always there, is its relationships and who it seems to like the most. you take venezuela. iran,ke cuba, you take

the list goes down. was that just a part of one regime, or does it represent something we should understand? minister malcorra: first of all, i believe one should relate to everybody, except for very few exceptions that don't comply with the basic principles of human rights. charlie: rule of law. minister malcorra: rule of law. except for that, one should be able to relate with everybody. i think historically, argentina comes from what used to be known that confrontation between east and west, and of finding the center space. there was always some of that. are trying what we to say, and i said that from the very first day i arrived in office, we have to have external relations that are state policy,

and not ideological, that are based on the priorities and needs and interests of the country. so you sit and discuss on equal footing, based on that. you are very respectful of the disagreements you will have with the other. that is the other thing about argentina. typically, we focus -- there is a 8020% relationship that always comes on. we agree on 80% and disagree on 20%. we always focus on the 20%. we need to focus on 80%. some remaining that you don't agree on, and that is fine. charlie: what do you want the u.s. to do? minister malcorra: i think the u.s. is an important partner. , tortant for the government convey the message that they feel comfortable, that from the general policy perspective, we

are doing things in the right the but essentially to have business community interested in argentina. for that, we have to work hard. charlie: your neighbor, brazil, is having its problems. how does that affect argentina? minister malcorra: deeply. first of all, we are part of a common market. we are neighbors, strong neighbors. brazil is not any neighbor, it is a huge country. it is one of the most important countries in the world, no doubt. our trade, 40% of our trade, is with brazil. say for example, in the first quarter, the trade with brazil fell 30%. 12% of your trade is gone off the table. not only affecting politically, socially, it also affects economically. for us to have a strong yield,

that goes through this process, not only making sure that it follows due process and arrives to the place where institutions us.preserved, is key for we need brazil to be successful. charlie: what is necessary for brazil to be successful? minister malcorra: this is a very interesting question, charlie. i'm on the phone with my andeagues in buenos aires, things change minute by minute. i think the brazilians are trying to find a way within the institutions to sort out the impeachment question. i believe they will find a solution. i think brazil will come out stronger. i cannot say exactly how. there is a mature leadership in brazil, and i think they are discussing the options.

the problem is how long it takes. essentially, 2016 will be lost, whichever way they take. to lose one whole year for a country or a region is a lot. charlie: some people have saidcharlie:, the corruption talk has been there, and has been much discussed. others say it is a soft coup. minister malcorra: when you look at the merit of the case that the president is being evaluated on, there is not a very strong case. i think you cannot challenge the legality of the process. you can insert of ask about the legitimacy of the process. that would make people feel a little uncomfortable. in the end, they are talking about how you -- use different lines of budget in the government. if you were to pursue any president for those reasons,

probably most of the presidents would be impeached in the world. politicallythat is driven? but it is also true, institutions are working based on a certain procedure. know the line, not to walk too far in your conclusions, and hope they are able to sort it out. charlie: when you proceed on this trip you are taking, what is your message to other countries about the foreign policy of argentina? or the administration of the new president? essentially,orra: it is that we are open to the world, we want to be part of the world. we deeply believe that being integrated to the world is an opportunity, not a threat. which is a major department -- departure, philosophical the pressure. i believe this very much coming

from where i come,. charlie: of course. what did the other administration believe? minister malcorra: they felt that essentially, there were certain parts of the world that rest areh it, and the necessarily not to be considered. i think the world is the world as one. then you can take and choose where you invest. that itself is always a two-way street. you are also picked and chose and also. all the dynamics of sitting at the table to talk, and say, these are my interests and these are yours, is there anyway we can have a common perspective. here? that is an excellent exercise, and that is what we are trying to do to drive what the president has assigned as the

first priority, to drive poverty down, which you only do it you create jobs. charlie: that is the attractive -- objective? minister malcorra: yes. elimination of poverty, fight against narco trafficking and the union, of the argentinians under, institutions that are solid rule of law. those are his priorities. those priorities drive my agenda as foreign minister. charlie: what could go wrong? youhave a new president, have a very experienced foreign minister. you have a sense of mission. what could go wrong? what do you worry about? minister malcorra: interesting you ask. the one thing that is happening not only in argentina, -- i would argue it happens in the region and many other places in the world.

he is the president, but he has congress where he has a minority. what people have told politicians is, now you sorted out. put in on the mess. way, wherenegotiated nobody has consolidated power. and then, traditionally, governors that were left out of the picture, were left out of the joystick because they were the ones who calibrate, or the congress is on issues. the beauty of the situation is we are moving out of a very strong presidential system, very centralized very dependent on one person,, to a much more consensus building system. but you need to go to the exercise, and that is not easy.

many things could go wrong. my sense is the argentinians have given a clear sense of we are sick and tired, six it. -- f ix it. to governors are very close the president in a sense of need to deliver in the end., politics become something about doing things for the people. i think the chances are very igh that it will go well. charlie: how important was president obama's reestablishing of relationships with cuba? minister malcorra: very important. very important. charlie: they were desperately waiting to see this. minister malcorra: you know, when president obama was job, i had themy opportunity to meet a lot of people close to him and himself,. they asked me, what would be the thing you ask president obama to do? i said, without any doubt,

reestablish relations with cuba. first, because it was a nonsensical situation. whatever happened historically happened many years ago, and things have changed. it proved to do nothing. why continue to do something like that? third, it alienated the whole of the backyard with of the u.s. with latin america. it was one of those things i saw as a win, easy win. i think the president did an excellent job moving ahead. charlie: what is going to happen in venezuela? minister malcorra: we are working very closely. on thursday there was a special session requested. in thela is a place middle of a serious crisis, of multiple levels. enough,l, interestingly

you have the executive still in the hands of the bolivar in -- bolivarian regime, but it has full control. how do you make them work together? how do you make the opposition bring a project forward, but reconcile and find a common perspective? then you have clearly an economic crisis that is driven by the cost of allele, the cost the cost off oil, commodities going down. then you have additional crisis, the lack of basic goods into the market, so people do not have medicine. and now, they are shutting power down. it is a very explosive situation. my view is we need to try and help both sides of the aisle,

and the vatican is involved in now, trying to see whether we can be helpful in them coming to a conversation. finally, the united nations and the secretary-general job, would you like it? it'ster malcorra: simplistic to say what i like it, it is complex. i love that organization. ago,u told me 14, 13 years you would be involved in the u.n., i would have told you, what? but then i came in and i discovered there is an incredible, amazing construction, very difficult to put your arms around, but it is there in moments when no one else is there. i care about it and i think i could add value to the organization,.

but that is something in the hands of my president. charlie: your president, or? minister malcorra: the recommendation comes from the government.it is the president who should decide whether he feels this is good for the country, and move. charlie: let me ask you this. do you think there is a sense in the global community, that it is time a woman is at the head of the united nations? minister malcorra: there is a -- it sense that there is is time for a woman. there was another sense that it was time for eastern europe to have it. i think the fact that they are talking about a woman is that it brings my name to the forefront. that america felt strongly it was eastern europe, that ok.d be but the minute it is not eastern europe, we had only one secretary-general where we stand as a region, so we shall see. charlie: we shall see. it is great to have you here.

minister malcorra: thank you, charlie. charlie: the foreign minister of argentina. back in a moment. stay with us. ♪

♪ charlie: for decades, virtual reality has been the great technological frontier. what might it be like to spend an afternoon on the moon? or experience a war zone from your couch? to live in the past as if it were the present?

now, the technology is catching up to the ideas. in 2014, facebook bought oculus billion. after the purchase, mark zuckerberg said virtual reality is the next platform. anyone create -- can create an expense anything they want after oculus, an entire industry. . it is an industry estimated to be worth $150 billion in the next four years. currently, virtual reality technology is being used to improve journalism -- journalism, health care, and engineering. there are ethical considerations to be made, and the technology is in the early stages. reality looks finally ready to go -- to go mainstream. joining me is the editor-in-chief of new york times magazine. onalso have a reporter technology in silicon valley. -- and thee guardian

ceo and cofounder of weaver, they virtual reality studio and distributor. and the ceo of a virtual-reality storytelling company. i am pleased to have each of them to understand what virtual-reality is about and where it may be going. tell me where you think it is? >> where it is. an environment using camera technology that is able to create a full spherical field of imagery, and also a sonic field as well, that gives you the impression of being in a location. being in the midst of a scene, being in a location obviously different from the one you are in far away. it has gotten to the point after many years where the fidelity to real experience is so great, it can trick the viewer and trick

the mind into believing it is almost a real experience. it has gotten to that level of fidelity where we can do special things. charlie: where is it being used today? minister malcorra a huge variety of applications. >> a huge variety of applications. it is in entertainment, obviously videogames is a major application. also, health care, engineering, military has been using it for years. there are quite a few applications. zuckerbergen mark says it is the next platform, is he right? >> i think so. charlie: that is why he bought oculus rift. >> if it works, it takes over your senses. right now, we are working on the eyes. once you have taken over somebody's eyes -- and i believe you experienced it last night. you felt the fear of being at the edge of the building, even though it was fake. once you do that you can create any imagery.

once you create imagery, you can take the place of things. -- can put a tv screen fiu in front of you, or 50 tv screens. you can put yourself in front of your friend on the other side of the planet. they can start to replace things. it becomes the next place we go, for more information, entertainment, socializing. charlie: is there a president to how revolutionary it could become? cedent to how-- pre revolutionary it could become? >> whenever there's a change in a new medium, i think a decade from now we were look at it as a key milestone in the history of computing. for the first time, it is actually possible to create a sense of presence that could not be possible previously. >> if you look historically in the second half of the 1800s, we as a species figured out how to record and broadcast moving picture and sound. out of that technology grows a

multitude of different mediums, and different businesses.you have television, cinema, radio telephone that. is the level of paradigm shift we are talking about as far as technological innovation. what virtual reality is, well it seems like a buzz word thing, and people say it is the evolution of video games or cinema, really what it is is technology communicating with us in a human way, and the way that the world communicates through us through our senses. fundamentally what it is is the medium as human experience. >> i agree with you guys. i think it will be an enormous platform and potentially huge. i don't think we are quite there yet. even in a few years. in terms of a really long, immersive experience with vr -- charlie: what do they need to

get their? -- there? justlot of it right now is in terms of talent. there is not even a language of how to tell the story, it has not been decided. we will have to rethink how the plot works for a movie on the are -- on vr. started, the internet people were just recording a printed page onto the internet. vr will redefine how we think of narrative. >> you are both right. before television, or movies, we had no way to see other experiences are be in another place. we created a window, and suddenly you could see into another place, even a place that did not exist. it was always through a window. the thing with virtual reality, we are putting you in the other world.we are taking you through the window. charlie: when will we be there? >> it's hard to say. it took them a long time to get

a really understanding the medium and creating the language to make things. i think we will move faster, because technology is moving faster. onrlie: i thought this part nepal. it wasn't quite like i could imagine to be there, it wasn't cold, but there was a sense of being able to look around and the wonder of the mountains. there was a sense of someone there, talking to me. but i understood the difference. if when you think about all of become we going to people who don't travel because we can engage in cultural reality? -- virtual-reality? a society where humans don't react? >> i don't think so. one of the things this can do is take you to places where you cannot go. i don't think it will become a substitute for places you can actually go. we have a film coming out in a few weeks that takes you to the surface of pluto. no one can go to pluto, but now

you kind of can. it is quite an amazing film, all using cg, computer-generated graphics, built on real terrain data taken from the surface of pluto, from the mission last year. real, data-driven rejuvenation of the surface of pluto -- re-creation of the surface of pluto. those types of experiences, putting you in a place you cannot otherwise be. charlie: like a war zone. >> the same thing can be said about some of the work we have locationsing you in like conflict areas, places that are difficult to go to where, most people are not ever going to go. but being there gives viewers a sense of presence and empathy and connection with those people that they would not otherwise have,. a brief montage

of experiences one can have in the oculus rift. it is called dream that. take a look. ♪ clip] >> it's very hard to explain the are. thatxample, the building just passed, you were there. you are standing at the edge. you felt i fear you would not normally fear on television. if you were at the edge, you would not normally step up. even though you knew you were doing a demo. you can look out over it, you can actually move your head, and see any direction. it feels real. beginning with the ise campfire,, the deer pixelated, you still believe it is real because it has the physical shape to move

around. isone of the key challenges it is very difficult to talk about it and describe it. there is a clear tipping point. we see this all the time, because we have been doing demos constantly. you have someone walking in who does not quite understand what it is. the next second after they put the headphone on, and they come out of the experience, they are immediately converted. it is immediately a jaw-dropping experience. as we were saying earlier, it is in the early days, probably because it will take time for the medium to be exposed. charlie: but the idea has been around for a long time. >> absolutely. $150 billion market for years. does that make sense to anyone here? >> no. [laughter] >> that is the base case. i think they are even more bullish. charlie: but for years? -- four years?

which the rate of technology happens, if you look at cell phones, we were surprised with the smartphone. we will likely be surprised with this. charlie: there is anything i experienced -- aping that i experienced, about how to map the human genome, there will be remarkable expanses. but it is always slower than we expect, then it reaches a certain point, and it sprints forward. thatthink we have reached point. it is worth saying this year is important in terms of the hardware itself. one of the big challenges with dr -- vr is the distribution challenge. not that many people in the world have these in their homes. so you make the films, and who can see these? we are not at the point of

saturation in terms of what is needed for people to view this, but this year is a big year. we have a lot of pieces of hardware on the table in front of us, that are going to be distributed to many people. charlie: more software. >> and more and more content. for many years, the problem was distribution and not being enough headsets out there in the world. this year will be a turning point. be -- i do think they will be used often, but when the first smartphones come out, the first thing i did was tell my mom, you have to get this. it's amazing, this is so cool, you can check your e-mail. you are tethered to a computer while you're wearing it, it's a jarring, lonely experience, it is expensive, you need a special computer. charlie: do you think it will deliver in the end? hasour mom actually already

99% of the hardware that is required in her pocket. withn send her a cardboard the sunday edition of the new york times, and she can have the experience. >> that's right. there are tons of experiences being tailored to the widest audience. seeingnder the ocean, whales. these are not games, they are very broad. >> i think the way to describe it to your mom,, i think the thing easiest to equate to in the human experience is out of a dream like you are entering a dream. you know it is not. it feels real, even though you are standing in a studio. charlie: tell me what we are going to see here. this is the evolution of verse. >> is is a short film we that i directed.

you find yourself on a lake, and there is a train in the distance. this is very much a sort of dream logic narrative. >> you actually feel like you are there. you can look behind you. your are looking at the train, but you can look in any direction. what is interesting about this one, the great experience is all that movement you are seeing, the birds, it's causing you to naturally spin your head. and you realize, if i do that, i can keep following the birds. this is an introduction to vr, for a lot of people with this film, and i think it does a beautiful job. charlie: what is the challenge for silicon valley? >> it is going to take some

time. mark zuckerberg has said this multiple times. it is going to take time for this to take off. we believe in the hockey stick. we believe it will take off. when isand predicting something we are doing. ,>> last year at the new york times, we started to get interested in doing a major vr initiative, we had a bit of it job we needed to do in the building to convince traditional journalists this would be a good idea. we were showing people a , to taker project students out of a jordanian refugee camp. i recall vividly the experience, to go around and put the headset on a sequence of journalists, many of whom were on the international desk. they knew the story intimately well. every one of them came out profoundly moved, and even in some cases, kind of shaken.

one person said that it changes what it means to bear witness, what it means to do our work. our work so much, in international reporting, is about bearing witness. now we can put a reader in a position to bear witness. >> when the iphone came out, there was no app store. when the app store came out, i doubt anyone at apple would say, this will change cabs forever and people will start renting homes from each other. it took a while for the software to happen. we are at that moment. ordon't know what the uber airbnb is. we do know people are really smart and fast, and now with it in their hands, amazing things will happen. right?: nellie, is that [laughter] >> we are seeing an explosion of interest from the community. weaddition to journalism, are seeing filmmakers and game designers that are immediately

drawn to the medium, and looking at ways to express themselves, and all over the world it is a global phenomenon happening at a significant rate. i think yes, we will continue to see an explosion of exploration around different experiences. charlie: let me say this. i want you to introduce. at home, you have to realize this is nothing like the experience. it only gives you a little bit of a sense in two dimensions, but to have one of these on and experience it, it is dramatically different. we want you to see it, because this is what people are looking at. tell me about it. >> the blue was our first exploration of the medium. for us, it was important to look a storyis unique to vr, or experience you could not tell using a regular frame medium. the thought was, how can we give you an opportunity to come close

encounters with the largest species on the planet? the inspiration was this encounter, this notion of being able to look in the eye of another sentient being on planet at -- and established sense of conductivity. you are as much a part of the story as the whale you are encountering, because it is happening to you. you are choosing how to look at it where to position yourself,. we have seen people have responded phenomenally well. that is part of a series of underwater experiences we are developing. charlie: what is google doing? there is a massive initiative going on at google. from their cardboard and initiative, all the way through all kinds of research, and content development, work around cameras. i think there's definitely a lot of focus from google and other companies in the valley. charlie: what about apple? >> others can speak to this, but

my impression is that apple is sitting back and waiting. charlie: they have plenty of cash. >> they have plenty of cash, and they are waiting for the kind of maturation to take place, and then they will try to make a move. that's what i assume. i don't know. >> they waited a while with the watch. virtual-reality experiences, one with youtube and one with apple music. the base ofthat -- potential base of people interested in virtual-reality in the iphone users is very high. on theusers are often creative side of the industry's,

and early adopters, and i would say having an attachment on an iphone for virtual-reality would be a great thing for everyone, and for virtual-reality in general. ♪

charlie: take a look at this. sir paul mccartney concert in virtual-reality. here it is. clip]

♪ charlie: why is the camera moving that way? >> it is trying to simulate someone moving there had. this, you would look wherever you wanted. they are trying to show you what vr is like, but the 2-d screens don't do it justice. >> but why would you want to watch a paul mccartney concert in virtual reality? >> maybe if you are a fan, you might want that kind of access. there will be tons of videos and games, and some things people will want to do and some things people will not want to do. >> i think it is the case that

there are some experiences that just a regular old rectangle to the experience is fine. thedon't -- rectangle to experiences fine. you don't need virtual reality. this is when i mentioned climbing a snowy mountain in nepal in virtual reality. [video clip] ♪ >> surrounded by the tallest mountains on earth. is moving this way because you are the camera in vr. >> it is your eyes. charlie: the camera is where your head is. >> you can have an experience where you don't move your head, but the fact that you can move it even half an inch to the right or left, gives you a sense of presence, and a sense of

agency that changes your experience. >> the technology will just get better and better. i might not personally want to see a paul mccartney concert, but i will never climb a mountain in nepal. i would love to see if i was there. [laughter] >> it looks amazing. i have done school arriving. a lot of people don't do it -- i have done scuba diving. a lot of people don't do it. -- lie: >> you cannot look at it as an extension of filmmaking, or extension to video games. it is its own unique medium. in the same way, the language of storytelling is the future of film. was after decades of experimentation. the language of virtual reality will be something else. it will not be a two-hour, three act structure feature film.

it will be it's only -- own unique entity. we are in the equivalent of year one of citizen -- cinema. kane" is not built in year one. the format of cinema with a sequence of rectangles, at the beginning through the motion picture camera. it sustained the entire life of the medium. virtual-reality, the actual format, is not fixed. it is constantly evolving. you are building a language of storytelling on something that is not finished yet. is evolving. look now, you can just around, tomorrow you will be able to walk around. and a couple of years you will be able to talk to people, interact, and have agency. it changes the use tell stories -- you tell stories. >> and we are seeing that. we were recently approached by jon favreau, the director of

"the jungle book" and ironman -- "iron man." he became immediately interested in exploring it, and we are developing something. charlie: and talk about games. where it is in respect to games. >> games were a natural fit. 30 years in the game business, had gotten to the point personally where games were kind of repeating what had been done. and then i thought virtual-reality. that is what brought me back. inherently, computers were built for virtual reality. they can render every frame as you are moving around. that is what creates the immersion in the building. thoroughly to that, aliens, or goes, or whatever you want -- or want,, or whatever you and you can really put people in the game. you can now put people in the game. we are about to release touch controllers, where your hands show up.

you have a trigger and you can use it for a gun, but you can also point or do a thumbs up. totally new way of interacting inside again, and feeling like -- inside a game and feeling like the game is around you. absolutely fantastic. it will really add to the gaming flavor and the things we can do. charlie: and it could marry artificial intelligence. >> that will be really interesting. the intersection of virtual reality and ai, you can picture a world that will get strange very quickly. [laughter] >> ai will come into play even realityh the augmented devices. smart contact lenses and things like that. important,super because you will want it to analyze as you move walking down the street. >> game characters have always been kind of droll. if you can walk up to them and feel like you are standing there, and the ai makes them like an intelligent person, it

will be excellent. withving interaction virtual-reality characters, and the long-term you will need ai. charlie: but it's happening now. >> i think it is in its infancy. charlie: but it is happening. >> it is. >> the gaming community as well, there is a history and gaming -- in gaming, where game developers have a leg up in terms of understanding of interactive systems and ai characters. i think we are seeing a lot of that. >> the real-time things we are doing, game edges -- engines to be repurposed. charlie: what about health care? >> a surgeon is not there. in the holding a camera and say to the left or right, the camera makes you feel like you are in the room. charlie: are we in an age where most of the developments will not come from a garage, but from google, amazon, apple?

>> i think it's both. i think the infrastructure will come from them, but you will start seeing experiences coming from all corners of the world, from all different people. once the camera systems are there, and the content creation tools are there, it is the same as video and user generated content on youtube. people will make their own stories. >> a lot of the big mobile apps started not technically in a garage, but a few people in a small room. the same thing is true. devices. available someone could buy one, take it home, and they could start developing if they know how to program. >> it is the democratization of the human experience, in the same way the internet was the democratization of data. i can make an experience, build and expense on the other side of the world, and share it with someone, and they can experience what i experienced, or create a completely unique experience

that cannot exist like going to pluto. >> that is why film is i think a when thinkingor, about this. it is not -- it is more about experience. in that sense, it is almost like more akin to a really amazing exhibit in a museum. something that you can tour. it is an experience that should eliminate you and educate you. chris is right. it is the ability to take somebody who, was not able to have that and give them that ask, -- expense. >> we always talk about it, not only coming from the center like new york or silicon valley, but also from the edges. charlie: this is hanging fruit, obviously, but you can think about people who don't have easy access to the great museums of the world. being able to walk from gallery to gallery, get as close to the painting as you want to. >> absolutely.

instead of just a picture, see it in the museum as it is supposed to be seen. charlie: should we be worried in the same way that elon musk and bill gates and stephen hawking have raised flags about ai? >> we should be worried about all new technological ways, because you don't know quite what's going to come. but obviously, it is exciting. charlie: you can't avoid it. >> you can't avoid it. it is what it is. it is coming. advocate -- advocate for vr for education. if you look at how valuable it can be. charlie: thank you so much, all of you. thank you very much. we have introduced you this evening to a whole new idea that has been around for a while, but it gaining speed -- virtual reality. they give for joining us. see you next time. -- thank you for joining us. see you next time.

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john: i'm john heilemann. mark: and i'm mark halperin. "with all due respect" to donald trump, who called senator sanders "crazy bernie," i think that nickname is already taken. >> crazy donald. mark: on the show tonight, donald trump's data shrug and hillary clinton's email mug. and paul ryan's ryan's dilemma to hug or not to hug. the gop presumptive nominee has a series of meetings scheduled, but the focus will be trump's tête-à-tête with paul ryan, who held back his support.