♪ >> from our studios in new york city, this is "charlie rose." charlie: let me start with the guy in the middle, mark, tell me right now, right now, what are the five most important questions about the political year that we are in? mark: five? charlie: ok 10. the five most important you're knowarch of, obviously we it will be when donald trump talks to paul ryan.

i am interested in donald trump's strategy, who is he going to choose for a running mate? who will hillary choose? does donald trump have a serious chance? -- we have seen in recent polls, they are close. have added. -- at it. mark: five, no particular order, how to donald trump make the big decisions of this campaign to perform. the running mate and convention in cleveland, and the debate which will be one of the most watched event of all-time, bigger than rhoda's wedding. is, can donald trump convince people he is ready to be president, qualified to be president? how many people in this room will admit in front of the group, raise your hand if you are voting for donald trump. ok. [laughter] how many people think there are people in this room who will secretly vote for donald trump?

raise your hand. [laughter] this may not be be perfect of a graphic to do that. it is his neighborhood. i do that question all over the place. can donald trump become a place that people go to vote? three i think is, can hillary clinton, the as likable -- be as likable as donald trump? the look of the modern history and the television age presidential elections, what are two things that are true of everyone who has one -- won? taller and more likable. not everyone likes donald trump. even hillary clinton, we talked in the clip there about his wedding, hillary clinton was asked, why did you go to his wedding? she said, he is fun to be around. anyone who has been around him knows that. she has to show people the private side of her, which is more likable. four i think is, does the country want change so badly

at they are willing to take a risk on him? or can she convince people stability is important. finally i think the economy and president obama's approval rating. the economy is getting a little better but if growth is still 2% and his approval rating comes down, i think that could be decisive. getting a third term for the democrats is tough. charlie: what would you add? >> first of all, thank you for those extraordinarily gracious introductions. you read them just like we wrote them. [laughter] charlie: i don't think mark would have allowed me. >> i should say you read them like i wrote them. i agree with all of those things, they are important. bigink there are two questions that relate to donald trump. fix the current problems that he has with two

in or mislead important parts of the an -- american electorate, hispanic and women voters. right now he is disapproved of by roughly the same percentage of those groups, it is like the mid-70's. there is not a map that accommodates being disapproved of by more than half of the ,lectorate in the case of women and the crucial and fastest-growing part of the electorate that would allow you to be president if you are at that level of disapproval with those groups. i have no idea how he goes about fixing those problems, but they are very large, and potentially disqualifying. charlie: they didn't do it for you? [laughter] >> i want to say i enjoy a taco ball -- bowl. charlie: why is he within four percentage points of her, and leading her in ohio? >> the election will always be

close, somewhat close in america. you have a very divided country. we have seen this over the past few cycles, 47% are republicans, 37% to 48% are republic -- did democrats. -- democrats. as much division between republican voters. they are coming home to donald trump as he has been named the presumptive nominee. historically when you become the presumptive nominee you get a bump. your party starts to coalesce around your. again, even though there are a lot of elite republicans arguing -- the votersrump in the republican party are largely going to be satisfied with him. the last thing i will say quickly, one of the biggest questions is, is this campaign going to be governed more by heart or science? all campaigns are about the. there -- about both.

there is the slicing and dicing of demographics and targeting of states. charlie: what about the clinton campaign? >> it was the obama campaign before that and then the bush campaign. -- the humanments element, the charismatic element, the spinning of the narrative. catching lightning in a bottle. >> what some might call the art of the deal. >> to me that is a big question. she has a -- if you want to go she only knows pros. you would not say that donald trump trump is a poet, but he is a much more dynamic, captivating figure who feels more of this moment and the frustrations of this moment for a lot of americans than she does. if donald trump is a poet i would say his preferred form would be the body limerick --

bawdy limerick. mario cuomo said that campaigning is poetry and governing his prose. >> i will give you a texas definition, you are kissing on my leg but it was warm and it felt good. [laughter] >> classy. mark: i am from texas. i am from the country. i want to back up a little bit because, and talk about sort of the macro elements going on. , as i began to look at the thing, the fundamentals of what was happening in the country and seeing the erosion of trust among voters towards government, towards politicians and parties. is sense that the country heading in the wrong direction. i went back and i said, i wonder

how this looks compared to 1992 when there was this character, a businessman outsider named ross perot running. what was remarkable was how much worse those numbers are today, a few years ago, then they were in 1992. in 1992 they were bad enough that this character from dallas, texas, as you recall, was leading bill clinton and george andbush for two months arguably, had he been a different candidate with the same message come up might have won that election. somebody to run as a businessman outsider, not beholden to special interests them and not a political background was an honest. -- was enormous. donald trump it is is a surprise, but we should not be surprised that somebody has captured that space of that is so change fundamental as mark said, they are willing to risk somebody that might be risky because they

tried everything else and they have been let down. charlie: what is it about donald trump's record in business that suggests he would be a good president? mark: he brings opposing sides together. he brings people arguing together and becomes a problem solver. that is a lot of people want in american politics. the other thing about donald very is he is not a ideological candidate, that is where a lot of the country is fred at this point, they don't care if it is democratic or republican, they just want a solution. i think donald trump is tapping into that as a businessman, he says, i will cut a deal. --rlie: let's turn through turn to the democrats, hillary clinton. bernie sanders is still winning primaries. how do display in his phenomenon? >> in every other industrialized democracy there is a political party home for people who believe what he believes. we have this strange system, unlike every one, they have

hase parties, any other social or liberal democrats, people who believe in universal health care, single-payer, much -- a broader view for government and regular leading the market -- regulating the market, and a world view about use of force overseas. john: -- jon: bernie sanders through discipline and strong belief and good use of social media and television shows like ours have put him on, is able to reach those tens of millions of people sure that these. -- share the views. luck thatttle bit of he was the right guy in the right place at the right time. the overlap, much commented on between donald trump and bernie sanders against daschle interest

influence in politics, against washington special interest in general, against trade deals. i believe that the system is rigged against working-class people. these are strongly held beliefs. things the longer term are things he has rode the wave on. he is exciting. he is authentic. those are things that break through. onehree important things, there was going to be a progressive challenge to hillary clinton, somebody was going to do it. the part that mark talked about about let's, it was lucky that elizabeth warren did not fill that space, he was lucky that somebody it more conventional, younger, or conventionally attractive, more conventionally acceptable did not run. the second first, thing is, we talk about political narrative, no one has told his story that is more coherent, whether you agree or not, then bernie sanders story about what is messed up with america.

the story of the billionaire need, the oligarchy, the for political revolution and fundamental reform, his argument -- that is all he has done. you go see him, he doesn't talk about his biography and tell jokes. he makes a critique of everything that is wrong with america. it is a real world you. the third thing is, something mark just said, it is the most important thing, all of the things that we all thought, i should say mark and i put him on our show earlier than almost anybody and put -- and took him seriously earlier than almost anybody. but even we totally underestimated the things that you would think our problems. a jewish guy from burlington, vermont, self ascribed socialist, cranky, dandruff on his shoulders, all of that. all of that added up to in this age of edge of assets because he was real.

people looked at him and said that guy has been saying that for the last 40 years. he is never changed. -- has never changed. he has been consistent. that dude is not a blowdried prepackaged politician. he is for real. that is why kids like him. charlie: could he win over that vote? >> mark, you know more millennials. mark: i think at the end of the day the clinton campaign will drive a very strong message on policy and issues that ultimately will likely appeal to millennials. they will likely appeal to them on a number of issues. the matter -- that matter to them. -- passionstion drives turnout, right now sanders is driving the passion. there might be anti-passion against donald trump. they could be negative. do they hate each other? charlie: secretary clinton and senator sanders?

mark: hate is a strong word. charlie: to the intensely dislike each other? she feels like, look, i won this thing. and he keeps winning primaries. >> nominations that have gone on this long since to breed friction. charlie: that his wife jim baker told george bush to get out. >> i think the intensity of it is nothing close to what it was between her and barack obama. i don't think it is close. think putting things back together between them and their campaigns and most of his supporters in philadelphia will be substantially easier than it was. charlie: why has she not picked up the phone to call him and say, not you have to get out of the race, but to try to appeal to him. mark: the candidates locked in combat do not talk to each other that way. particular with somebody told to get out of the race in 2008. she thought it was her right to fight. what mark, about

said, it is true that i think the level of intensity and bitterness is less than 2008. here is the truth come on the worst day in 2008, barack obama did not think that hillary clinton was a corrupt crook. bernie sanders basically thinks that of her. he thinks she is everybody about the oligarchy and the ruling class that defines despicable -- that he finds despicable. she represents something that he in the wayaligned that obama and clinton were both cut from the same cloth. ivy league schools, members of the senate, bernie sanders looks at her and thinks, big-money. all of the things that he critiques are clintonism. charlie: what is your judgment in terms of performance of the media so far? [laughter]

>> same as always, abject failure. [applause] mean, in all seriousness, i think we perform our jobs as a group as poorly as any elites in society. it is harder than it is ever been for a variety of reasons. the economy as a scale are harder to achieve because our market share is smaller than it is ever been -- has ever been. does the new york times have the same budget to file for information request than they did when they had a bigger monopoly? they just don't. no one does. applaud theult to overall coverage. i will say if you are on the right side of the digital divide you have more access to information than ever before.

-- digital information than ever before. ♪

♪ here,e: mark ronson is the british producer made his name in the 90's new york city scene. he has since worked with the biggest names in pop music including adele, amy winehouse, and sir paul mccartney. his new album earned him two grammyst this year's

including record of the year. time magazine right every inch in detail of the album ranks in intelligence. his single uptown funk has been viewed on youtube more than 1.5 billion times. here's a look at "uptown funk." hollywood, jackson, mississippi call the police and firemen two hot --too hot i am too hot girls hallelujah uptown funk going to give it to you don't believe me just watch ♪

charlie: i am pleased to have mark ronson at this table for the first time. how do you think of yourself, producer? musician? mark: producer, songwriter, dj. a dj is how i became known in the early 2000. they kind of inform each other. you get to see rhythm and how it moves people which you take to the studio. the other stuff you pick up along the way. charlie white you said about "uptown funk," you worked on it to within an inch of his life. mark: that song started off as a bruno's studio.n is justw and then a jam wasting time, sometimes you had a rhythm. the differences, i guess, when

you start a song, the jam is conceiving the baby. anything is possible. we could go this way or this way -- charlie: improvisational. mark: yeah, it is fun. the sky is the limit. six months down the line you're like, how do we rewrite the bridge? that is like raising a child. when you have something that everyone in the room feels like has the potential to be great, it is tougher to get to the finish line. charlie: what has the video done for your? was doing aow i shoot with a photographer

from the associated press monday -- one day and he said he was leaving the house and his wife said, who are you going to photograph today? he said the white guy from the bruno mars video. bruno mars is one of the great, great shoot with a photographer from the associated press monday -- one day and he said performe, dancers of this whole generation. i know standing next to him, i am not going to pull crazy moves. it has been amazing to be in something that has brought people joy. people seem to love it. we actually love it. sometimes you get banned with their biggest hit and they like say, we hated that song. this is something i am really proud of. it is crazy to see life it has taken. -- see the life it has taken. charlie: has it changed your life? where i live, i take the two, i walk around. in new york i take the subway. i am lucky in a way that i don't somefame on the level as of the greats, talented people i work with. because i can still live my life.

charlie: take amy winehouse, adele, is there a common denominator? mark: i think pop music sometimes can be a quite homogenous feel. it is rare -- you could have somebody talented doing a bit of whatever -- what everyone is doing and they can break into the top five. every now and then you have somebody that blows the doors off because they are talented. what they offer -- charlie: it touches you in a different way. mark: the greatest connection is still the human voice. there is nothing like hearing a great vocal performance. i think those people have a singularly great voice, they sing with passion. you know they mean it. charlie: you said you wanted to capture the feeling you remember from new york. mark: yeah, i think coming up as a dj in new york, i was a dj in but r&b, disco,

rock 'n roll, it was kind of a magical time. everyone are members the stuff they were into an early 20's. maybe it holds a special place. that record, i had -- i wrote a letter to my favorite -- michael shaman. i said, why can't we make music that feels good and has a groove , but it could tell great stories as well? usually you think stories are the territories of bob dylan. we could have a great beat and put interesting lyrics over it. i asked and he wrote back saying he was interested. we took a trip to be deep south, through new orleans, we drove up to chicago. we went to 30 different churches looking to discover rate young singers. we stopped in memphis and fell in love with a studio there where al green used to work. we recorded a lot of the album there. it was a kind of journey that, i

don't know, every time -- kind of little stuff -- stop along the way opened another door but never would've happened if we stayed in new york or london. charlie: you produced most of back to black? mark: that is the record i first became known for. i met amy in new york. we hit it off. this, weell she had clicked and i liked her. we started writing the first few days, we wrote back in black. she wrote rehab. i made demos. in two weeks we made that all. -- album. charlie: did you see the documentary? mark: i did. i saw it twice. charlie: was it real for somebody that knew her? mark: it is very real. a lot of people forgot that she

was there because of her music and her voice, not because she was stumbling out of her house. it is hard for me to watch some of the stuff, of course. it is like anyone watching home footage of a friend you lost. there is something also about watching the celebration of hers are at and how funny she was and be things that maybe other people didn't be -- always see. charlie: you said you knew you had to work with her? and: we started talking sometimes when you meet a singer for the first time as a producer you might play them through different chords of tracks to see if they respond, but for her i knew she was like no one i had met. i said, go home tonight and come back in the morning. i want to write something and play it. i wanted to impress her and have her stayover in new york. she was leaving to go back to london that day. i pay it -- i played back to black. she liked it. we kind of, the momentum went on from there. charlie: what have you wanted to do that you have not done?

mark: i think a lot of things. definitely, mean some of these things, especially because of the result from "uptown funk" are milestones i thought i'd never would achieve. i would have been happy. these ridiculous things about playing the super bowl or on " snl." they wouldn't be on my bucket list because i would say it is grounded in reality. my heroes, people like george martin and quincy jones they of -- a legacy of great music. seven years to eight years of records that could be considered important. that is all i want to do. i want to get better as a producer and an arranger. charlie: here's a clip.

it was shot entirely using smartphones. entirely. ♪ charlie: wow. that is amazing. the notion of shooting with a smartphone. mark: we spent it on beer. director shoots a lot of covers for rolling stone, he said, i want to do this on iphone. i like the idea of doing

something a bit different than everyone else. charlie: this is you and lady gaga talking, burning down the house. also on iphone. ♪ ♪ charlie: tell me about that. mark ronson: so i have been working for the last few months with lady gaga on the upcoming record. i was blown away by the talent in her voice. i think the opportunity came with the met, she has never played guitar. she is great on the piano, but guitar is something she is learning for this record. she is such a fast learner. and as a performer, she is insane. so i know she could have carried

it anyway. so it was like a very last-minute thing. we got to rehearsing in one day. one of those things where i could have gone every which way wrong, but it kind of came off without a hitch, and it was a lot of fun. i had an amazing time working with her. it is kind of what we are working on now. she is really like, she is kind of amusing. she used to have this sitting at a piano barking orders at a drummer. all of the world is not seen that. they have seen the tours and events, so it is great to make this authentic analog record with her. charlie: you worked on adele's "19" and "25."

mark ronson: i seem to do it every six years. i hope i get the call for "31." charlie: explain it to me. mark ronson: another thing with a voice is so infinite. i feel like for somebody who like has such a sunny deposition and as warm as she does, all the pain in her voice, the things i don't even know, it is that passion and emotion that locks you in right away. she can sing a phone book and we would line up to buy it. and you know, she is a great storyteller. and the authenticity, that is what we are missing right now. charlie: paul mccartney. mark ronson: yeah. he is somebody that, when i was in the studio, i could push the first day, the most nervous you are going to be. not only he is he a legend, he is a better producer than you, better musician than you. and you are in the room with the ghosts of george martin, elvis costello that he has already worked with.

so he gives you a day circle. he knows everyone is nervous. you get a little window of kind of, all right, we will let you flub a few things, and then get over it and get excited about arranging things. mainly i learned so much from him in that time about arrangements. the stuff he was doing with the beatles was so groundbreaking for that time. he still talks about technology and how to make his stuff interesting. it is very inspiring working with him. charlie: why pop for you? mark ronson: it was the music i was drawn to. i moved here from england when i was eight years old in 1983. that was the era of run dmc and the sound of new york and growing up, that is what we would sing on the school bus on the way to long meets up in the parks. and that was the music i was

drawn to probably because of the grooves in the rhythms and away the example james brown and a lot of things that i would discover as my favorite kind of music. charlie: have you always been fascinated with vinyl? mark ronson: always fascinated with vinyl. this started in the era when you had vinyl. i still love it. i actually don't play them that much, but i have 5000 records in my studio that i just need to see them every day to be reminded of where you come from. i can see the little spine and remember where i bought them. charlie: so was this the perfect training ground for you? mark ronson: i think it is almost like probably the closest you can get to having a modern musicology kind of course. you learn every thing about musicianship, arrangement, playing, especially from old records. it is a good thing. a lot of good djs like dr. dre that become producers, talking

about the way your mind works and putting together music. the result of amazing producers that never touch vinyl. i think it is anywhere you have your own entrance point. charlie: where do you think he will be 10 years from now? or five? mark ronson: five or 10 years from now? we live in an age where there is this giant sense of entrepreneurial -- i made as a musician, now i want my own line of polo shirts. and i was kind of saying, those heroes like lindsay and george martin, they are currently studying to get better. that is what i want to do. i would be happy if 10 years from now i am still working and deciding artists. charlie: thank you for coming in. back in a moment, stay with us. ♪

♪ charlie: michael eric dyson is here. he is a professor of sociology at georgetown university. he is a political analyst at msnbc. his new book is called "the black presidency, president obama and the politics of race in america." it will help you understand the complex puzzle of race. i am pleased to have michael eric dyson back at this table.

so you had mr. isaacson endorsing your book. michael eric dyson: a couple of people. he said very kind words. charlie: and julius, i like him. the account of barack obama and the race is riveting. essential for trying to understand the promise and pitfalls of america's racial maze. tell me what you hope to accomplish with this. michael eric dyson: i want people to understand how race has been used for and against obama since he entered office and then to step back and see how he himself has regarded race, engaged the issue, and then finally, how race has structured our understanding of him. has often pitted him in interesting ways against a narrative that suggests that we are in a post racial nirvana that he has rejected. at the same time, he has been quite hesitant to embrace the issue of race and engage it as

the president of the united states of america. charlie: are the majority of african-american opinions celebratory of the fact that we have the first american president who is black? michael eric dyson: absolutely. 97% of black people voted the first time, and then 93%. there is a "saturday night live" sketch that comes on where the black journalists are there to be objective and examine obama, and no matter what goes on, even if he is opposed to their beliefs, they say, do you believe in god, yes? if you were atheist, would you still vote for him? yes, we would. it is pretty ironclad. charlie: but there is something he should have done more? michael eric dyson: there is a growing feeling he should have and could have done more. diehards will continue to ignore

that, but he is protected by black people who believe no matter what he does, he will be unfairly opposed and unjustly criticized. they do not want to add on to that. they do not want to engage in legitimate critique unless they fear that their words join with those ostructionists who criticize this president. the problem is this those very black people, many were black and do not -- they did not ask anything of him. lesbian, transgender, queer, they are black. environmentalists did and other constituency groups dead, but other black people were loathe to say anything lest they were traitors to him. charlie: how many people [indiscernible]

he could say, i did address that and it's now 5%. michael eric dyson: that is the larger american public is 5%. 4.9% recently. black unemployment is now 8% something right now. charlie: he should have acknowledged that? michael eric dyson: yes. any president that does not acknowledge it cannot deal with it. by seeing it as a problem, then you develop resources, you constitute panels as he has done. you put together an initiative on urban america. you begin to do with presidents do, executive orders, panels, white papers to think about ways we can strategically alleviate the struggling of a group. but he was not interested in being specific about race. he believed for a long time in his presidency that the rising tide lifts all bolts, if we believe in universal dimensions, particular elements of

african-american people will be enhanced. i think he is wrong. if you help african-american people, think about the 1963, 1964 civil rights bill where that bill has been the template for anybody that was to come along as a minority group or an interest to say we want our fair share of the american pie. they have used that civil rights bill as the template. when you help black people, you help a larger american society. charlie: when you look at his record in terms of speaking, speaking to him, does he fall short? michael eric dyson: [speaking simultaneously] he gave the famous race 2008 speech in march. charlie: which he wrote himself, i am told. dyson: he wrote a lot of that himself. he put forth his idea of what

america would does. he said at the best, america must engage in the issue of race. anything but occurred. and then henry louis gates of harvard university had the fiasco that led to morehouse. the beer summit was the resolution of that. the president learned a lesson. as a novelist said back in the 18th century, we do not want to deal with that. we do not want to address race. this is what his advisers suggested to him. charlie: you think he has not done more on race because he feared the political repercussions of it? michael eric dyson: he feared the political repercussions to be sure. which means you can be strategic. he is one of the smartest guys in american politics right now. why not find a way to address the issue without making it commercial? we do not need the commercial, just the product. he does not need to raise a black power sign. he needs to address it with consistent intelligence as with other issues, and not to be loathe to address the issues.

charlie: has he not spoken to the issue of black americans in prison? michael eric dyson: he has recently. charlie: that is what you would like to have seen earlier and more. michael eric dyson: let me tell you why it makes a difference. the president said, i am not the president of black america. black americans were not informed anything of that statement. they did not think they were voting for a president of the naacp. when he says, i have a job to do for everybody. you may not be the president of black america, but you are the president of black americans, and are we not americans? he does not feel it necessary to say that i am not the president of white americans. that is not the problem.

when african-american people who have been distinctly marginalized and seek to be brought back into the larger circle of american privilege, how do we do so, and how does the president, who happens to be black, not take up the responsibility every other president that has taken the office trying to do? lyndon johnson was not a black man, but the civil rights bill, the voting rights act, and the aftermath of king's death, the housing rights act, he was motivated. he went to howard university. charlie: [indiscernible] michael eric dyson: including lincoln. charlie: lbj? and "selma." michael eric dyson: "selma" was trying to write to the ship of interpretation of how black people were involved in their own salvation. that movie was great. there is no question that lyndon baines johnson with all of his peccadilloes and idiosyncrasies

was one of the greatest presidents to occupy that place for african-americans. charlie: and for the great society. michael eric dyson: against poverty, the brutal forces that had reduced america to a vast wasteland of poverty that dr. king warned about. charlie: so you like to think that barack obama would have been like lyndon johnson. michael eric dyson: he wrote one of the greatest memoirs on race and identity in america. it would be again to michael jordan being the president but did not talk about basketball. you are good at that. so he does not have to be lyndon johnson, just barack obama. a man who does not last out at black people by giving condescending lectures at morehouse. to warn them of a global economy they must get what they earn and only what they earn will they get. charlie: with the morehouse commencement speech, condescending to -- michael eric dyson: african-americans and those graduates who were there that day.

charlie: did they take offense? michael eric dyson: yes. some of them did for sure. and many people celebrated him and were quite resentful. a pattern here. not only morehouse. i was there at the congressional black congress when he said put on your marching boots. when he was knee-high to a tadpole, they were getting their skulls cracked open. people were heroic. there is something beautiful about this president. not only his skin but the fact he has had a biracial experience, his mother was white, his dad from kenya. he brings together the unimaginable opposites in american society, and in one body unites them. on those thin shoulders unites the future of american democracy. the lamentable fact is his not safe enough, motivated enough to address these issues until

forced to. there is a proprietary consciousness about him and a protective impulse or him. a mothering of him, fathering, brothering -- people have reached out. that kind of kinship has made people say, beyond all that, if he is not doing in the substance of political fashion for african-american people, symbolic representation of his ascent will be in one sense mitigated by the fact he did not do anything in a concrete way to address the things he knew so well. when he finally began to speak about police brutality, it was beautiful. initially, he was giving us a law and order. charlie: my son. michael eric dyson: he was forced to say that, encouraged to say that after he delivered. charlie: you don't think his instinct is to speak without fear -- michael eric dyson: of fear about white america, white reprisal, what might happen, misinterpretation, and his

reluctance and reticence is fanned by that america is often a powder keg, and he does not want it to explode. i will say this. i do not blame barack obama for what we see going on in 2016 with donald trump. race will be interpreted in america. if you leave a vacuum and a void, the wrong people will rise up to interpret it. we could have used more early on. a intelligence, passion, insight of barack obama on the issues and crises of race in america. charlie: [indiscernible] michael eric dyson: [indiscernible] and who has been quite vicious and better. cornell west has been in gauging but a nastiness and a kind of unexplained animosity to the

president that is personal and uncomfortable in terms of violent imagination. i have no trust with that. i'm talking about principled criticism. talking about loving criticism. even legitimate criticism. he had been in such bitter, nasty terms. i have nothing to do with that. but the unprincipled criticism of the president is unhealthy for any country without which we get left -- charlie: foreign policy? he has received it on economic policy. michael eric dyson: you are making my point for me. why is it that criticism cannot be had on the issue of race because this is internal dynamics. charlie: you said bill clinton had a bad policy with respect to african-americans. barack obama has no policy. i remind you toni morrison said bill clinton was the first black president. and she meant the way he was treated.

michael eric dyson: not the substance of his ideas or the content of his vision or perspective. what she meant was they treat him like they treat the average brother on the street. they are dismissive of him. bill clinton had more permission to be black in public than barack obama does. barack obama cannot play the saxophone on a late-night show. he could not engage in the rituals. not without playing [indiscernible] are you stereotyping? charlie: he probably could and we would have applauded. you can sing al green as well. michael eric dyson: at the apollo certainly. among the people who are there. that constituency. or amazing grace at the church. but when i say permission to be black in public, the way obama is blackest inside a part from that remarkable sermon and eulogy in charleston is when he goes to the white house correspondents dinner and he

signifies his blackness in a way, radiates from the heart of his likeness that is relatively unable to do. charlie: which is comedy. michael eric dyson: that is the way he can do it. through humor, he can signify through he is. his blackness can be mediated through a forum already set up to know that what we are doing is humorous and comedic. charlie: [indiscernible] would you say that the majority of black america believes what you believe? michael eric dyson: no, not all. not only intellectuals but some of the cultural critics who have been saying this and acting saying, we have been asking this president, engaging this president, and we don't get any purchase. no serious response. we get lectures, condescension. we get after we force a kind of serious engagement, yes. the president will occasionally speak to these issues. he went to the u.k. and could not help but remonstrate against

black lives matter. he said you cannot yell at people. i do not deny what he said is true. but he praised to gay and lesbian activists for what they did, and larry kramer acted up. there was a lot of stuff these people did to get the attention of america and american presidents. i think obama feels boxed in. he was loathe to speak earlier because he did not want to be blackened. he wanted to breathe the air of the american presidency. but every president has to deal with the issue of race. you cannot be exempt from that. charlie: i am sure he would say to you i am not failed to speak out. i have not failed to speak out. i thought it was necessary in terms of all those cases in which we have had police violence. michael eric dyson: he would. charlie: and he would say that

in terms of prisons, unemployment. he would say all of that. michael eric dyson: i don't have to -- let me tell you what he said. charlie: i hear you. [speaking simultaneously] michael eric dyson: this is what he said. i disagree. to his credit, he is not as thin-skinned as his followers are. when you have a hangnail, you get aspirin. when you get diabetes, you get insulin. if you have cancer, who get chemotherapy. there is no such thing as medicine. it is medicine targeted to an ill. public policies like medicine work best when they are targeted to the ills are meant to relieve. i said, your approach to me suggests that this universal conception of how we can help african-american people is lacking. he said, i appreciate you, thank you for sharing. i disagree. i stick with the belief that when we help everybody, those at the bottom and those most vulnerable will be helped as well.

so we have a philosophical difference among though our goal is the same. when i pressed him on the reluctance to speak, he had to build up ahead of steam. he looks for places to pick and choose where he can speak about race. i think he felt he did some wrong things. the attorney general not a month in office said this was a nation of cowards. obama came along and said he was not playing starsky and hutch. he said if i was the attorney general, i would not have said it that way. charlie: the politics of race in america. michael eric dyson. thank you very much. thank you for joining us. see you next time. ♪

mark: i am mark crumpton and you are watching "bloomberg west." brazil's acting president says it is urgent to unify the country. his first address of the country came hours after brazil's senate impeached president rousseff after it was revealed she used accounting tricks for the budget. commit -- i never may have committed errors, but i never committed crimes." donald trump met with paul ryan. >> i want to keep the things we discussed during the two of us because they are very