♪ announcer: from our studios in new york city, this is "charlie rose." charlie: rose." anthony mackie is here. he takes on the role of martin looter king junior along with bryan cranston in the film "all the way." the "hollywood reporter" calls the film a fast-moving portrait s, mackies, -- write plays king with authority and soul. here is the trailer for "all the way." [video clip]

anthony mackie: i keep having this dream. a comanche war party searches the house. it is only a matter of time before they call me up to where their knives gleam. >> he's gone. the president? >> an accidental president, that's what they will say. >> i urge you to enact president kennedy's civil rights bill into law. >> that ain't going to be easy, dr. king. >> we will have to hold his feet to the fire. >> we in the senate intent to filibuster this bill. >> if you get in my way, i will crush you. >> this civil rights bill just killed your election chances. government does not do what is right, this will no longer be an option. >> is that a threat? ♪ >> everybody wants power.

they think it ought to be given out, free of charge like mardi gras beads. nothing comes free, nothing. >> do you think everyone will suddenly start dancing to your tune? >> all we are asking is to live as decent human beings. >> i'm trying to turn this country around. >> my people want results. it is time to act. to step down now would be wrong for your country. >> nobody is surrendering. >> we are making history here. you have to decide how you want history to remember you. charlie: i am pleased to have anthony mackie back at this table. anthony: thank you for having me. charlie: you turned down an

earlier chance to play martin luther king. anthony: i did. a few times. i never saw him written the way i grew up knowing him. my dad -- every year for martin lu 13's birthday, they would -- luther king's birthday, they would play the king miniseries on television. paul winfield played dr. king and he was so magnetic. i thought he was dr. king. in the three-part miniseries from the late 1960's, early 1970's. my dad was prolific and specific about how he felt about dr. king, and it influenced my view of him. charlie: how did he feel about him? he always said, anyone could say that they lead men but

only a man can lead men. everything you see about dr. king, he was radical. he was not passive. he was not the type of leader that sat back and waited for the fight to come to him. he led the charge to the fight. charlie: he died fighting for the poor. anthony: he did. i always call dr. king the forgivable socialist. because nowadays, that word is poison to any politician, but back then, dr. king really believed in a community coming together and helping each other. you make a community garden to --d the neighborhood not feed the neighborhood, not just yourself. that is something that as a community we have gotten away from and now, it is my garden, my yard, my house in this community. charlie: what did you think you kingo do to portray the that you believed him to be? anthony: for me, -- you see the trailer and cranston looks

exactly like lbj, and he portrays him spot on from the lbj that you see and people talk about. dr. king i felt was a man who was more known by his actions than his looks. for me, it was more about his essence. if you can capture a man's esteem, his essence, the way people felt about him, people will believe you are that man. i felt trying to look like him would be disrespectful to his legacy, so i did not want to do the add-ons. charlie: when you look back at the research you did, it made you more admiring? anthony: by far. the day and age that we live in with social media, you are not allowed to be a human being. with dr. king, the more i learned of his flaws, the more i

admired him as a human, the more i respected him as a man. charlie: flaws and all. anthony: yeah. when you put them on a pedestal, they are not as relatable. every time there is a chip on that pedestal, every time i step -- he stepped off that pedestal, i realized how much he was like him -- i was like him and he was like me. charlie: you read smiley's book. anthony: i did. charlie: how did that influence you? mr. mackie: it shows the nature in which he was a facilitator for the black community into the white community, and the white community into the black community. i think the one thing this movie shows that you never really see is dr. king with his core group of advisers, leaders, and friends, and that frustration

between stokely and ralph abernathy and all those guys, and dr. king having to moderate that, and then going into the world of lbj and having to moderate that. charlie: knowing hoover was after him. anthony: exactly. and he was a phenomenal politician. he played on both sides of the coin. that is why he and lbj got along so well. it was ali frazier. it was a mutual respect. charlie: here is dr. king speaking to a group of protesters about the importance of civil rights. [video clip] >> but the government cannot legislate what people feel. and he's right. the law can't make white folks love you. but the law can prevent them from lynching you. the law can prevent them from denying you a job and your child an education. the law can ensure that you have the right to vote.

>> amen! am not here today to tell you fine people who to vote for , but come election day, let us be sure to send in the fine senator from arizona and his tender heart back to where he belongs. charlie: i assume that meant barry goldwater. anthony: that's what's so great about dr. king. he never came out for lbj, but came out against barry goldwater. that was the compromise. charlie: you call acting a serious negotiation. what is the negotiation? anthony: you have two actors on a set, and you do not know how the other actor will work. and when or if he is going to respect the craft. you have to find yourself in a neutral position. you never want to get too big that you don't celebrate the joy of acting, but you always want to be humble enough to make sure you are chasing that great

feeling. it's like hitting the great shot on the golf course. you are still chasing that one feeling. charlie: you remember how sweet it was. anthony: every single time. charlie: how was bryan cranston to work with? anthony: he was phenomenal. it was a career-affirming experience for me. i feel like this is the only way to sum up cranston. he was doing press for "trumbo" at the time. it had taken off and caught fire. he was supposed to go to london and to press, and i had to do a scene that was supposed to be between him and i over the phone. i learned he was not going to be there and i would have to do the scene with a pa or somebody. we do this scene and we come back for the second half of the day, and lo and behold, cranston walked in. everybody was like, what are you doing here? he said, i have a scene with

anthony, so i changed my flight so i could do off-camera with him. charlie: off-camera? anthony: so he can sit off camera and do his lines and make my performance better. you don't have that experience with actors that have a tenth of his career. an eight of his resume. for him to do that, it was career-affirming. charlie: take a look at this. discussing the civil rights act with bryan cranston playing lyndon johnson. [video clip] >> i need to go back to my people and tell them that this president is committed to civil rights, and that this bill, even without voting rights, will still be a strong bill with no further change. if i cannot do that, i will lose their faith. and in their despair, i do not know what will happen. >> is that a threat? >> i don't want riots anymore than you do.

but, in order to avoid that type of situation, i need to be able to deliver meaningful reform. anthony: it's a really good movie. i am proud of it. charlie: will this film give people an insight into the fact that there can be, if there is a will, for people who want to work together, but represent different constituencies, king on the one hand representing the african-american constituency as his role as the civil rights leader. and for johnson, leader of the country, but understanding that progress was as essential. anthony: definitely. i mean, if you look at it -- dr. king and lbj were both great bipartisan listeners and leaders. i think the best message to come out of this movie is compromise. you cannot win everything if you do not give up anything.

lbj, in the four years and few months he was president, got so much accomplished because he had that my partisan kinship. -- bipartisan kinship. he could go on either side of the aisle and talk to whoever he needed to. charlie: take a moment to think of this. on the one hand, there is this , all the way about johnson and king. there is also "captain america: civil war." is this just two things that an actor can do in the full spectrum of a career? anthony: yeah. i would like to hope so. i think the goal of an actor is to string together a bunch of jobs to make a career. when i first got into this business, there were actors that i admired and appreciated and i wanted their careers. i did not want their jobs, i wanted their careers. every time i see stanley tucci

and don cheadle and bryan cranston, there's -- those are the guys that i look at and i know every time i see them on a poster, it will be a good one. charlie: they put talent to work in different places in different roles. anthony: exactly. you know you will see a performance and not someone just reciting lines. i want to be known for my resume, just like anybody else in any other business. if you put your resume out there, you let it speak for itself, so i always try to put myself in a position to have my resume speak for itself. charlie: do you think, because of all this controversy at the time of the academy awards, where people who did not get nominated thought they should have been nominated. and that happened throughout the academy award nominations. has the impact and the focus on that had some change potential?

anthony: i think so. we are in a very interesting place right now as far as entertainment. we, as a group of entertainers, have not figured out how to utilize our assets. no one knows where the internet market is going. no one knows how to utilize that best yet. we are trying to figure out how to turn this cable thing with all of these great shows and great actors and directors and writers going to cable television -- how to change that back into film, but at the same time utilize the internet. there is a plethora of possibilities and a huge reward for the person who figures out where the internet plays its part into film. i think we shouldn't limit ourselves to the moniker of being in the movie theater. we have so many outlets. use those outlets. and i think those outlets have garnered the recognition. charlie: you also represent the idea that you do not have to live in los angeles to be in the

film business. anthony: right. charlie: new orleans is a perfectly good place. anthony: the best city in the world. i can't see myself living anywhere else. i love los angeles. i adore new york city. but there is a magic in new orleans that you cannot find anywhere else in the world. there is an appreciation of life. there is a fervent love of neighbors and community that you cannot find anywhere else in the world. and, we are in the middle of festival season. charlie: are you playing johnny cochran in the film? anthony: i am. early johnny cochran, when he made a name for himself. this is a case that basically -- johnny cochran redefined civil justice. he brought the theatrical show to the courtroom. everybody recognizes that no one can do it, not the way he did.

you saw that prime display with the oj case. what he was able to do or what mr. cochran was able to do early in his career was outstanding. we want to show where he was at the beginning of his career and how it blossomed -- if you need a lawyer, the only lawyer you can get is johnny cochran. charlie: the lawyer you want to get is johnny cochran. anthony: [laughs] charlie: thank you for being with us. back in a moment. stay with us. ♪

charlie: julie chen is here. she joined cbs news almost 20 years ago as a reporter and an wcbs television in new york. moderates "the talk." it has five female hosts. she is part of the writing team. it won its first daytime emmy for outstanding writing. she is also the host for "big brother." that program will begin its 18th season on june 22. i am pleased to have julie chen at the table. welcome. julie: thank you, charlie. i'm tired of listening to that 18 seasons -- i am the old person on "big brother." charlie: but this has to be the best of lifetimes for you. everything you touch is successful. you have a son brilliantly named

charlie. and you married a good man. julie: i have always been a late bloomer in life. i did not realize that until about a year ago. and then you go through all of the milestones. i got married late. i got married when i was 34. and when i got married, i said this is my first, only, and last marriage. charlie: have you had said before, i'm not getting married. i'm going to be a "60 minutes" correspondent. julie: i did not have time for marriage or being a mother. it was my dream since junior high to be a broadcaster. and as you get older and your tastes get more sophisticated, i thought -- wow, every sunday night that is what i want my life to be like. and then things change. when you are young, you think you have your life figured out. and in life happens. charlie: so what happened first?

julie: what happened first was, i was surprised to get plucked away from local news here in new york city for the network. i would have been happy being a field reporter. because in a big city, you get sent to the big stories. happened, at the , i got plucked to do a reality show. what was at the rio -- what was the reality show? it was at the beginning of this wave to do "big brother." charlie: did you have a sense that -- when i go to do a reality show, i am taking a different career path than i intended? julie: yes, i felt it in my bones. when they asked me to do both morning news at the network at cbs and every week for 13 weeks to go on a plane to do "big

brother," i asked the head of cbs news at the time, andrew heyward, i had only been working for him for less than eight months -- i said, be real with me. if i take this assignment, am i permanently closing the door to ever being a "60 minutes" correspondent? and to his credit, without blinking, he said -- yes, probably. so, i went into it with my eyes open. that being said, well, i kind of in hism his answer office right there, i said i don't want to do it. and he said to me -- we could technically assign you this job at "big brother" because you work for the network. if you say no, it could be a sign of insubordination. i was 29 years old. i thought -- i have not even been here for a year and i'm getting a file. charlie: that was 18 years ago. talk about growing up in queens. julie: i loved it.

i grew up seeing the best of both worlds. growing up in queens made me a child of two immigrants who came here in the 1950's to get married and have a better life for their kids. every summer, every other summer, i would go back to singapore where my mother's family was. i grew up seeing it all. queens was like real life. i lived in a good, working-class neighborhood, upper middle class. my dad was a hard worker and my mom was a homemaker. and then, every other summer i was going to singapore and see a glamorous life that my cousins in the far east lived. it kind of opened my eyes to everything. but growing up in queens made me real. kept me grounded. gave me a little bit of a gritty

edge, which sometimes you need being a woman trying to get ahead in any business. we joke about it. if i need to get queens on someone, including my husband, i will. charlie: meeting the grit is there. julie: the grit is there. you have to be able to stand up for yourself. going to public school, there were metal detectors in my junior high school. you learn how to survive. charlie: tell me about your mother. she seems to have had significant influence on you. julie: my mother is the wisest person i know. she grew up very privileged in the daughter of the most successful man in the country. when i was growing up, she described her father as the donald trump of burma. i don't know if she would say that today. she fell in love. came to america. charlie: with a man from

singapore or a man from burma? julie: no, my father was born in beijing. and during the war, while my father and his mom and his five siblings were fleeing the communists, because my dad's father was part of the chain kai-shek government. and for a two-week timeframe when my father was 17 and my mother was 15, my dad's family was holed up in my mom's home in rangoon, burma. so he is seeing this beautiful 15-year-old empress. my mom was very la-di-da. they wrote love letters for 10 years, and he made sure to get her an application to the university of tennessee in knoxville. because my dad was studying for his masters at the university of florida.

and he said, here is a program. it's about an 11 hour drive from where i am. you could get into the program here and we could be together in the same country. ,o 10 years of letter writing she comes over. he brings her to tennessee, and she never went back. charlie: she wanted you to be on the air. julie: she planted the seed in my head. in the 1970's, my mom is cooking dinner, and we are watching the local news, and i see an asian face. kaity tong. and my mother and my father, anytime there was anyone asian on television, you would hear -- [speaking foreign language] hurry up, hurry up, there is an asian face on the television.

we all ran into the living room and there she was. she looks like me. she does not sound like my mom. she sounds like me. i don't have a chinese accent. i am an american. and my mother said -- if this woman can do this in this day and age in this country, my daughter can. charlie: your daughter goes to sell off -- goes to southern california, though. not a nearby college. julie: i was dying to grow up. i was the mother of three girls, everyone bossing everyone around. when it was my turn, my mom gave us a rule, to all three girls. she said, girls, first of all, you will go to college. second of all, it will not be living under my roof. you need to go somewhere that is truly a way to learn how to become an independent woman. and you will have a career. you will make a life for yourself. when i chose southern cal,

my two other sisters were in massachusetts. my mother was locked -- was like, i think you took this a little too far. and i said, i really need to get out from under you, dad, and my sisters and demaio person. charlie: when you fell in love with your husband -- what did they say? julie: my mom set their like a there like a tiger mom. she wanted to know if he was good enough for her daughter. what are your intentions? my father was pretty much on bended knee. my father was so happy. charlie: so happy that you were settling down to an honorable man. julie: to a captain of industry. not just anybody. julie: yeah. pick my daughter. my mother was like, easy. charlie: she wanted to make sure

that he measured up. how has it been -- married to the ceo of the company, i can imagine that you have talent, but obviously it is both a benefit -- julie: a blessing and a curse. we are coming up on 12 years of marriage this year. in the beginning, it was tough. it took me at least four years. here was the real problem, before iworked with even knew him, people who i considered my coworkers and friends started treating me differently, and not in a good way. charlie: how did they treat you? julie: it's like, oh, well, she gets special treatment because she is married to the boss. and i was still doing the same job and i was still the same person. i did not treat anyone else differently. but people started, you know, it was like you became the teacher's pet. no one likes the teacher's pet.

there were three people who did not treat me differently. and to this day, they will always hold a special place in my heart. i remember one news producer went toe-to-toe with me -- that would happen when we did not agree on how to cover a news story. -toe in mying toe-to time office, and i was so happy that this person had the guts to stand up to me for what he believed in when it came to what should be on the air. it was not like -- i am going to be her yes man. we had a healthy argument about how to cover a story and i liked that. he did not care who i was married to. and i tried -- i never talked about my personal life. i remember one day, tony

manager -- r stage charlie: been here for 20 years. julie: he said to me one day -- he likes to impress people. he said -- i was hanging out with les the other day. and i said -- i know. and he made this face like, i forgot. i liked that moment in time because it told me that i did not go around saying yes, i am the first lady of cbs now. listen to me, everybody. that is not me. it never has been. and it never will be. my mother raised me better than that. "the talk" idea came up, you were going to be a moderator for that, lined up in certain ways to "the view,"

giving cbs a morning program that was effective? was it something you thought would be perfect? i like to talk to people, this would be great? julie: it was a godsend because of a few things. i had just had a baby. i just turned 40. and i was tired. i had done the morning news for over a decade. charlie: and if you are a woman, hair and makeup means you get up very early. julie: yes. i was about to get this stuff tattooed to my face to get an extra 45 minutes of sleep. when my husband came home and , my head of entertainment says she doesn't think you will be interested in this, but they are interested in me suggesting it to you to see how you would one thinks you are going to leave news. and it was a godsend. i was looking for better hours. i was looking to base myself out of los angeles instead of new york.

and i did not want to give up working. a lot of new moms give up their career. and it is the right choice for a lot of women. but i have found that when the kids get older and the women want to get back into the workplace, there is not always an open door. so i did not want to ever shut the door. charlie: what about you? you have had to bang successful woows -- you have had t successful shows. what is the driving ambition? i have a lot of experience, talent, opportunity, charlie, the great kid is making his own way. , two things, thing some kind of thing? meie: i have thought, let mark 10 years on "the talk."

we have six right now. with "big brother," there is a secret side of me that hopes it goes away on its own, because i do not want to step down from it because i love it too much. but if the ratings dwindle and it gets canceled, i cannot say anything about that. and there is a tiger mom aspect -- even though charlie is six, i often lay awake at night thinking what college i think he is suited for. and then i think to myself, i have to keep working until he applies to colleges, because if i have no pull or presence in the community, if i am a nobody, how can i help him get into college? even though my sisters and i did not have any help. we did it on our own. it's a weird thing. charlie: thinking you can be helpful. julie: yeah, you can make a little phone call and be like, hey, rather than, oh, she used to be that lady that had that talk show.

charlie: megyn kelly is doing a talk show. i think it bears as we talk. "megyn kelly presents." is that the kind of thing? she said she would like to be herself. others want to inherit the mantle of barbara walters. does that appeal to you? julie: when i was a child, other than "60 minutes," watching her four, how many specials each year, it was like -- wow. she can sit down with qaddafi and sharon stone. how do i get that job? but this field has changed so much, i have often thought that is something i do not want to give up. i have a talk show. people come on for six minutes, promoting a show or movie. it is not the same as doing a barbara walters or a charlie rose-style interview. this came to my mind -- if

sharon osbourne ever wants to talk, who better than me to talk? charlie: that is the way to think. who better than me? julie: but she would probably rather sit with you or oprah. beyond sharon osbourne, the other people you know, part of the game is being able to get them to sit down with you. and you have experience and you know people socially. you know people who respect you. you have something going or you. experience. skills. julie: but charlie, you and i know, when it is caitlyn jenner, a big interview that everyone wants, they will always sit with the bigger name. the biggest name. julie chen is not the big name you can sit down with. i know what my capabilities are .

i know i could do it, but i know i would not be on the list. it is not about qualifications. it is about, look at my resume. you think -- not going to sit with her. the association is -- nice person, but probably a lightweight. charlie: making the decisions you have made, you do not regret any of them. in a sense, you are in a place that is very comfortable for you. you could have done other things, but there is a completeness about your life. julie: there used to be a saying -- we women cannot have it all. i remember barbara walters said that to me when i got pregnant. she said, julie, we women can have it all, but not all at the same time. and i remember maria shriver said to me when i got pregnant -- she said, let me give you two pieces of advice. number one, when you take off

for maternity leave, you take off for as long as you want. because the minute you walk back into work, they do not care that you have a newborn at home. they just see you back at work and they will start piling on you. the time you really need to take maternity leave is when your kids become teenagers. and somehow, i took off eight months, which is a long time, and it felt like two weeks, but i somehow managed to kind of juggle it all. i do not think i am doing one thing spectacularly, but i think i am doing everything good enough. i am satisfied. charlie: occasionally, we ask people to write in. they will talk to me about questions when they know somebody is coming up. this was someone that asked me to ask you -- how did you get a guy like les moonves?

julie: i know he asked you to do that. the question is -- how did les get julie chen? [laughter] nice try, charlie. nice try. charlie: thank you for coming. julie: good to be with you. charlie: julie chen. back in a moment. stay with us. ♪

al: angus king is the most prominent independent political officeholder in america. a two-term governor of maine. he was elected as an independent to the united state senate in 2012. he serves on the intelligence, budget, and armed services committee. he caucuses with the democrats while endorsing republicans as well. senator king, thank you for being here with us. senator king: always a pleasure. al: we have never seen a political year like this. has it been good or bad? sen. king: it has been good for the country. everyone has gotten their views out. you have a candidate representing every slice of the electorate. that's probably positive. the real question is, can we put it all back together again in november and in january? the danger is that we are heading into a period where the government is not working well. i don't mean the bureaucracy of the system the framers designed. what worries me more than

anything, and i have seen this, is when willingness to listen and be reasonable and compromise is in itself a capital offense in politics. in other words, if you are seen to be trying to find a solution through compromise, people in your district may well vote against you just for that, not because of your position on anything. al: a book just published on hillary clinton says she is a good deal more hawkish than barack obama on national security. that is an area of great interest to you. she supported the iraq invasion. she was a prime pusher for going into libya. she thinks we should have intervened more in syria. does this more hawkish view your renew, or do you welcome it? sen. king: i wouldn't say it either way. the real issue is, what is your temperament? that may be the most decisive -- the most important decision about how you make this decision, because we do not know

what the issue is going to be. it is hard to say that she is predisposed to use force in every situation. but i think it is probably true. the irony is, obama came in wanting to end wars, and he has now been at war longer than any president in u.s. history and opening up new fronts as we speak. in part because of the nature of the world that we live in. al: you sit on the intelligence committee. i know you are not familiar with the specifics, but what is your general feeling about the secretary using a private e-mail server while she was in office, which circulated some sensitive material that was subsequently classified? sen. king: i have not read the e-mails, but i understand that colin powell did the same thing. it is not unheard of. here is the irony. during this period, the state department server was hacked and hers was not.

it may have been that hers was more secure. probably neither here nor there, but it is sort of a funny sideline on history. i don't think it was a good idea. i do not know why she did it or what the thinking was -- perhaps it was more convenient. but whether there was any compromise of national security , there does not appear to be, but this story will dog her. i see it like a self-inflicted wound. they were slow to release the information. they threw out e-mails. disposed of e-mails without any third party saying, what is it? it was handled poorly in terms of -- let us just get it all out there. let everyone see it and move on. because by dribbling it out, it has made it a six-month story. it's going to continue into november. al: let's go to the other side. donald trump has given several foreign-policy speeches in the last month or so. what is your impression? sen. king: i have to tell you a story. two months ago -- i am a member

of a subcommittee of armed services called strategic forces. that is a euphemism for nuclear weapons. two months ago, several of us went out to andrews air force base and got on a plane i did not know that it existed. it is called the national airborne operations center, otherwise known as the doomsday plane. it is the plane that would go up and provide command and control during a nuclear strike. sobering pretty damn to be on that plane and realize what its mission is. and then in the middle, we took off and flew out over the country and came back to washington. but in the middle of it, there was an exercise of a mock nuclear strike. an air force officer played the president. somebody played -- but here's the point of the story. the thing that hit me almost viscerally was that in that

situation, there is only one person making the decision. there are no checks and balances. there is no congress. there is no vice president. there is no consultation. one person has about 20 minutes to decide the fate of civilization. and i had never thought about it. we think about our rube goldberg system of checks and balances. that was powerful. and i've got to tell you, that is a question that i have about donald trump. al: how do you assess his temperament in that situation? sen. king: i don't know the man. but he seems hot. impulsive. the tweeting. you poke him, out comes a tweet in the middle of the night that is brutal. it is not measured. al: you need someone measured? a couple more specifics on

the trump foreign-policy. he says we are bearing too heavy a burden. that other nato countries should pay a lot more than we do. even suggested the possibility that in asia, our nuclear umbrella would disappear and korea and japan could get nuclear weapons. sen. king: if we did that, the asia part -- we are going to back off the nuclear umbrella. what's going to happen? japan and south korea will get nuclear weapons. do we want that? do we want to bang mork -- two more countries with all of the dangers of misallocation of fissile material? that is not a thoughtful policy prescription. as far as nato, everyone knows the nato countries should pay more. the president has said that, they have agreed to it for many years.

that is a legitimate point. but then, when you question the underlying premise of nato and is nato really still relevant, that is an invitation to aggression. and also keeping muslims out -- that statement. i happened to be on cnn the hour that he said that, and wolf blitzer said, what do you think? my immediate response was -- it is a gift to isis. al: you agree with general petraeus? that would make us more dangerous? sen. king: no question. isis wants to drive a wedge between the west and the peaceful muslim community. they want to make this a war of civilization. and to the extent that we alienate muslim communities here or are perceived to do so they

say, yeah, sure, look at what these guys are doing in america. you can't trust these westerners. al: if this is as polarizing a campaign as it looks like it will be, well there be a market for a third party or independent candidate? are you going to be so generous? sen. king: third parti are hard to start. it either takes a very charismatic leader or a burning issue. the last true new party was the republican party in 1856, and you had the issue of slavery, and then you had abraham lincoln four years later. that is very difficult. but i think there will be places where there will be independents. one of the problems is that the system is rigged in favor of the two parties. it would cost roughly $50 million just to get on the ballot in all 50 states. whereas the parties are on immediately.

i think the time might come. it will depend on the circumstances, who the candidates are. danger, the trouble, with people talking about a third-party candidate now -- if there was a third-party candidate to the middle or to the left, they would probably elect donald trump. the republicans are worried about a third-party candidate to the right, which would elect the democratic candidate. that is always the danger. once you get into three-party races, anything can happen. garland, the president's nominee to the high court, you have net with him and said you were impressed -- what are the prospects of him being confirmed? sen. king: if hillary clinton is elected, 95%. i think the republicans will make a judgment that they will take merrick garland over somebody she might nominate later on, if she decided to go with a different nominee.

that is just my practical assessment. i think it is a real shame that we have not had a hearing and a vote. when i met with him, for about half hour, 45 minutes, we had a very good discussion. i kept having a feeling that i wished there was a camera over my shoulder so that people could meet this guy, because he is a judge's judge. i have no idea of his political party or background. it does not jump out at you. he is not an activist. he is the kind of guy you want on the supreme court. he will take the law and apply it. i think he would be a swing justice like sandra day o'connor. and that is a role that he would play effectively. also, he is a consensus-builder. i agree with you. i do not think there is much likelihood at all that anything will happen between now and november. al: would you like to see the supreme court overturn the citizens united case? sen. king: sure. charlie: --

al: do you think that's feasible? sen. king: the old saying -- brandeis characterized it as a derelict law on the waters of the law. i think the citizens united case will ultimately be viewed that way. the reasoning was unsupportable. clearly, having it overturned would be a lot easier than a constitutional amendment. when you get into a constitutional amendment, you are talking about the parameters of the first amendment. it would be very complex. i voted for tom udall's bill to provide a constitutional amendment to repeal it, but as a practical matter, some kind of reconsideration by the court makes sense. otherwise, we are just -- it is just getting worse and worse. a tsunami of money, particularly unaccountable money. nobody knows where it is coming from. i really -- i don't want to

sound alarmist, but it worries me about the future of our democracy. al: let me get you to put on that armed services and intelligence cap for a moment. are we turning the corner , winning the war against isis? sen. king: yes and no. i think we are on the ground in iraq and syria. i have seen maps recently, their territory is contracting. getting them out of iraq and will be -- mosul difficult. the standard rule of thumb is it takes 10 people attacking to dislodge one soldier in a city. so it will take a lot of people. and it will take a long time. and these guys have no qualms about using civilians as a shield. but having said all of that, their control of territory is diminishing. that partially explains why we are seeing an uptick in these attacks, bombings in baghdad, brussels, paris.

they are trying to keep their recruiting up, believe it or not, killing people is a recruiting tool for these guys. al: most people say that, to be successful in iraq, that government has to be able to function. do you have any confidence that the iraqi government can function? sen. king: my confidence is diminishing. a real opportunity was missed with maliki. maliki need to summit -- summon his inner mandela and did not do it. he, that situation more than any other paved the way for isis to come in, particularly into iraq. the sunnis said, maybe these guys will get us a better deal. al: what about intervening in a syria? senator king sen. king: we haved

a friendly atmosphere for them. bbadi wants to do the right thing, but the politics are terrible. and you have got the shia militia, you have iran in the background. if they do not get their act together as a government in baghdad that includes sunnis and kurds, it is a hopeless fight. al: you are in a unique position, the only independent member in the united states congress. if you were king, who would you tap as president? who that we don't consider what impressed? -- would impress? sen. king: the guy that i have been most impressed with is tim kaine of virginia. he is prominently mentioned as a vice presidential candidate for hillary clinton. he was a successful -- he was a mayor, a governor, he knows about being an executive. a very successful governor.

virginia is a contentious state with conservatives and liberals. he was very popular. he worked with both sides. i got to know him personally. he is a deep guy, spiritually and intellectually. a terrific public speaker. he is a guy i hope someday will lead the country. al: angus king, thank you so much for being with us. and thank you for watching. ♪

♪ i am mark crumpton, and you are watching bloomberg west. air city officials tell us the debris in the mediterranean sea does not belong to egyptair , contradicting early reports that said it was from the plane. the plane went down halfway between the greek island of -- and egypt's northern coastline. it was carrying 56 passengers and 10 crew. terrorism is not being ruled out. soldiers and police continue a desperate search for hundreds missing after