mark: i am mark halperin. i am john heilemann. i am back. ♪ john: happy friday, sports fans. pond,they say a cross the

happy friday, sports fans. littlet our show with a british flavor because of what the donald trump said about david cameron. in the spirit, we brought along our trump phone booth. mr. trump, operators are standing by. egyptair, coverage on not a lot of other news. the presumptive republican nominee, what he said about the british prime minister would be big news. they have not been the best of friends. david cameron has called donald trump's proposal "divisive, stupid, and wrong." , thed trump told gmb british version of gma, that he is not a divisive person and "i'm not stupid, ok?" which makes donald trump's statement rather interesting.

>> he came after me a little bit. he would like me to visit 10 downing street. they put out that invitation two days ago, so i would do just fine with david cameron. i think he is a nice guy. i will do just fine. they have asked me to visit 10 downing street. i might do it. minister'srime office at 10 downing street responded this afternoon saying it is long-standing practice for the british leader to meet with nominees for both of american political parties, but because donald trump and hillary clinton are not confirm nominees yet, there are no confirmed dates. , what trumpon is seems to have said is not clearly right or true. is he playing fast and loose with the facts here? mark: the clinton campaign raises it with reporters off-line all the time. they're pounding on this notion

of not being able to trust him. we have both talked for a long time about trump and a fitting during the nomination fight when there are international incidents. i think there could come a time in the debate in the fall where trump says something that is wrong and it it is called on. in the short-term, i don't think it is, and i think the people who think insulting in some ways the british prime minister is going to be a problem for him with the electorate he was to put together, i don't think that is the case. it is a good think idea for political candidates to play fast and loose with the facts. we would like to think -- mark: that our presidents can be held accountable when they do. john: that's correct. at some point, and i don't know when that will be, but if world -- start to express a consensus that donald trump is unfit for office, i don't know how it will play with every

voter in america, but it is not good. mark: let me tell something to the british people. if you think donald trump is going to win, your leaders are going to start sucking up to him. the brits do that. if trump looks like he will win in the fall, cameron will be like his best friend. [phone rings] tells usur operator that the donald was to say something. >> he knows nothing about me. he knows nothing about what i said. i'm not a big fan of his greedy take a look at two things, look at where our country is with years of him being involved. we are a mess, number one. i know he has a great reputation and all of that. all of these guys have a great reputation. they have been doing that stuff for 15 years. look where our country is, ok? we need a new group with different thinking.

john: thank you, mr. trump. we appreciate the phone call. mark, does this put an end, my friend, tear off to express and rather lunatic fantasy that mr. gates could end up being donald trump's running mate. mark: pretty much. look, i've been surprised at gates. he was critical of trump and hillary clinton, and donald trump could take a running mate that he is criticized. ends it.this in' the thing is to close. there is not enough time to patch this up to donald trump said in a dismissive way that he did not care about gay credentials. -- gates credentials.

john: here are a bunch of things to think about. donald trump was pretty feisty. i don't understand why he picked that fight. trump went flew off the handle. have youre reason you fantasy is because you are among some reporters who were told by people in trump's orbit that gates might be a good pick, so maybe that points to a little dissension and trump's world. atdon't waste my time this point in my career, but some people are telling me that donald trump is leaning towards somebody who is not a safe or solid pick. john: that would be a mistake. [phone rings] standby. the phone is ringing again. once again donald trump is trying to reach is. the operator says he has more

thoughts on egyptair flight 804. >> we cannot continue to let things like this happen. we are being taken advantage of by radical islamic terrorists, and this world is changing. another couple of planes go down and you will have a depression worldwide the likes of which you have never seen, because nobody's going to travel. there will be no anything. no communication between countries, and you will have a problem the likes of which you have never seen. mark: thanks for the call. for example, donald trump dedicated five tweets to hillary clinton, including this one. wait, there's more. he also tweeted this one.

is there a cohesive worldview that could help him in a general election against hillary clinton. john: the problem is that the few he is expounding is at odds with the views he had at the time. donald trump cannot maintain that he was always a steadfast opponent of going to iraq. .here is no evidence libya is even more egregious. he made a big deal on how we had to go into that country, and now claims he was against it the whole time. if donald trump wants to say that he has thought it through and has a change of heart and now thinks it's a mistake to invade a rock or go into libya, that would be fine. you can change her mind to do

can't say you were always in one place when there is evidence to suggest the opposite. mark: on the substance, i'm with you. on the matter politics and whether he has a worldview that can trump hers, she is, besttunately her, the person equipped to call him on this. that this could all catch up to him, but i also believe that a lot of things he is saying are popular with voters. john: the problem is that he does not have her conditionals. she has issues on foreign policy, for sure. mark: is this election cycle where credentials matter to voters? there are some voters in the middle who will determine outcome, and it very well might be. consistency actually does matter, and again, we know we have to call people to account. i know we've gone over time, but

i will say that part of the reason why the bob gates things was always a fantasy is precisely this, he does not know what the worldview of donald trump is. these are all problems. we are hanging up now and donald trump, but not in a bad way. guess who will be here in the flesh. right after this. ♪

now, two big us

thinking republicans, although not in the same way. feed, i'm going to start with you. you say unity for the sake of unity is not enough. problem with those who are joining trump for those reasons? day, mr. end of the drop is disqualified from being president. unity is fine, and i understand it. int situation, it applies party politics. the question is unity for what iend? unity for justice needs to be supported.

as far as the will of the people, that carries the day in a self-governing country, but the founders themselves were deeply worried about the passions of the public, and the will of the public is sometimes wrong. notvoice of the people is the voice of god. they have gotten it wrong before. they will get it wrong again. and they may be getting it wrong now. i understand the pull of the unity argument and the pull of the will of the people argument, but it does not trump other arguments. at the end of the day, you have to make the decision that is best for the republic. mark: you will never be for trump. you will never be for clinton. you will sit thos this out if those of the choices. >> that certainly right. she has stood against everything i am for, so at this point i am out. mark: where are you on trump, being for him or not? >> i am in. i love pete. i think his arguments are as

always persuasive. there is one argument that i ,ight add to pete's next piece and that is that there is another reason for unity, and that is that this country is an airplane headed for the mountain. a lot of people are concerned that we may reach a place from which we cannot return, and that we need someone to change direction now or there won't be a country that we can restore, and i think in one way, those of have the establishment been a little disconnected from that sense of urgency that the american people feel. it is not just about unity for unity sake. bring in the turnaround ceo and say the business from bankruptcy or there won't be a business. i won't speak for, but i know one of the things he wrote in his argument is that if you want to make an argument about trump versus clinton on the arguments, but the notion of arguing for party unity sake

does not make sense. we talked about this throughout 2015. you had deep concerns about donald trump's suitability for the office, about whether this guy could be trusted with nuclear codes come about whether his temperament was suited for the white house, and you talk about very strategies to take him down. what is it that has changed about donald trump it makes him ok with you in that office? >> something has changed about trump and something has changed about the situation. i lost. my other choices did not make it, and now i have a binary choice, and that choice is to continue in the direction of more the same, which i think is threatening the country, socialism and the extension of it in america's deadly, so that is one thing that has changed. the other thing that has changes seen donald trump

throughout this campaign, and i see some things i like. that tells me something about the man could i talked to business associates. there is a loyalty and the man that i have come to appreciate, and i have seen his loyalty to voters and his respect for voters. voters is easy to throw under the bus because they are being politically incorrect, the little people are making too much noise at the dinner party, he does not for the american voter under the bus. do i still have concerns, absolutely i do. tothey pale in comparison the urgency of the situation, which is something that i think pete showed address in his next piece. john: i get where you are on abstaining a copout? there is a binary choice, so conservatives like you who decide i'm not under any moral obligation to vote, how you going to feel if you wake up on election day and donald trump, who you say is unfit for office,

is sitting there in the oval office when you abstained and impart allow that to happen? >> right, it's a fair question, and i haven't got into the final decision yet. i just said i will not vote for donald trump under any circumstances. i do think hillary clinton is problematic. i don't think alex and i disagree on hillary clinton on her faults. right, the situation is change. there is nothing about mr. trump in terms of his attitude and pronouncements and actions that is any different than it has been before. willct, he himself said he not change, and he used the analogy of the mountain. i agree we are in trouble and need to change direction, but the problem is that with the donald trump guiding the airplane, we will hit that mountain sooner, faster, and harder than we would otherwise do it. i want to say one other thing. minority inam in a

my party on this page the difference here is -- the inflection point on trump -- is the judgment about his temperament, his sensibilities, his prudence, his judgment, and i just think they're that he is not only worse than hillary clinton. he is in a category all his own. he is crude, cruel, and has a personality disorder, narcissistic, and i think he is dangerous. i really believe that if he were president, he is erratic and would be a danger to the republic, and he is certainly a danger to the republican party, everything i like about alex, and i respect him, everything that he and i have 44 is being washed away. this movement is not conservatism. --on't think the argument the country is more important. i think on both of those things, the republic and the republican party, i think donald trump is a real and present threat. would add one thing. if we think the country is in

revolt now and has turned to the choices it has now, wait eight years. if we continue to go in the same direction eight years of stagnation, the world seems to be setting itself on fire and dissolving in front of our eyes. i think the choices that america might make then, so i think there is some urgency to the moment right now. mark: pete, i know you don't like trump, but is there somebody you would recommend as a running mate who would make you feel better in case he does win? >> i have not given it much thought, because it would not make me feel better. he is out as he going to go in his own direction and own way. there are a number of people out there who are impressive and good and who would help them, but at the end of the day, as you know, these decisions are almost made by the top of the ticket i guess kennedy-johnson in 1960 was the last that made a difference, and i'm not under any illusion that a vice president is going to mitigate the worst tendencies of donald trump. it does not really matter to me. it sounded like you might

vote freely clinton, but we won't make you say that today. i'm beinglieving -- completely candid and saying no, but given where trump is going, it's possible i can be persuaded. mark: ok. thank you so much. a will be right back with romney-ryan policy director line right after this. ♪

john: we are back with our , and now the romney-ryan policy maven. do you detect and donald trump on his various policy

pronouncements, do you see a real world view? >> i think it is a real worldview and his size. an american-first frame, but that is not helpful in determining how, when american or veins. --hink he thinks it is america intervenes. i think he thinks it is coherent. is takingary clinton on a more aggressive gun-control position, do you think the politics of that has shifted so that donald trump is making a mistake by embracing the nra's endorsement? a problemr he has with conservatives two, and by doing what he did today, he's trying to signal them that they can trust him on the issues that the conservative movement cares about, but the politics of gun control are tricky, and in the states where this election is going to be fought, i'm not sure

it's important. john: now that you are on team trump, who would you like to see him pick as a running mate that would make him solider and do him good politically and substantively? >> i would be happy with ronald reagan. john: not available currently. name.ear newt gingrich's i would be very comfortable with that. a bunch of good republican governors. i would be great with the john kasich. there is another good, solid republican choice with experience on the hill. governor mary fallin, someone with a good record is governing, so i think their are some choices out there. the vice president will not transform the campaign. you are right. it might solidify the base a little bit, but it will not help him. donald trump is too big to be

defined by a vice president. mark: what are the things you wonder about donald trump right now? >> one thing that a lot of people have said is that donald trump transcends a normal requirement for candidates. one of the things would be telling us what it is he might do when elected. so he said in some level of non-detail that we will build a wall, but he does not have a policy platform and a traditional way that candidates have been required to have them. you know a lot of republican policy mavens. do you literally no a single person who is in the donald trump camp advising him on policy? >> no, i don't. there are some folks who have taken meetings with him or provided their thoughts, but in terms of formally advising, no. mark: what does that mean to people like you who thought the policy was such an important part of winning a nomination and being a candidate? >> presidential candidates are agenda setters.

that is what they do. they are saying that this is what our country should care about, so him not articulating a vision or a specific set of policies is very dangerous for the country and the party. john: you worked for governor romney. today, eric erickson said mitt romney should run as a third-party candidate. would you vote for him? >> no. john: why? >> because it would elect hillary clinton. back, a newe come poll, the in a array, and a triple threat of reporters, right after this. ♪

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in santa fe from santa fe community college were bernie sanders is speaking. and here in the studio. ll poll out. clinton with a 47-41 lead. a little outside of the margin of error. trump 21 favorable with women. but bill clinton is unfavorable with men. sorry, hillary clinton is unfavorable with men. is if the candidate unworthy, a little under a third

of voters saying that they are trustworthy. talk about hillary clinton in matchup. where do you think she stands now? is this a concept or does she still have the advantage a democrat would have? guest: right now, she has the advantage. is the nexter primaries and bernie sanders and his supporters. question is how does she gain their trust and show them that this move to the left is legitimate and not just in the primary? john: walk us through the politics of gun control. hillary clinton is farther to left than anybody on gun

control in her lifetime. and now trump, who was suspect in the eyes of many. guest: the staunchest we have seen in a generation. clinton has run pretty far to the left on gun control. she has taken a very staunch and strong stance on it. ahead of bernie sanders, the one issue where she claim stronger credentials than him. is campaigning lockstep with the traditional campaign. hillary clinton's darling ofs thea volume and she senses that the ground has shifted since

and shootings across the country have become more and more regular. like clinton was happy to take a position, given where sanders is, seeming that he is out of step with the democratic base. do you think that puts her in a good position relative to the generally electorate, to be where she is now? arit: i think it helps her a lot with her base, with minorities, women especially, women losing the kids. women who see gun violence in their relative communities. those of the people who really care about guns. those of the people who are backing hillary clinton. for her to come at strong on this in this primary health rely. in hartford, connecticut, she came across so human when she was talking to a mother who lost her child in newtown.

just seeing her talking to people about it in a really human way helps her a lot. mark: totally agree. best moments in the campaign is showing where her heart is. this is an issue that she is as .assionate about anything else let's talk about judges. donald trump issued a challenge to hillary saying she should put out her own list of judges and potential justices the way he did. that seemed to me to be pretty shrewd politics, maybe base but republicans have done very well talking about these issues in the last years. sahit: these issues are based mobilizer's. donald trump helped himself by putting out this list. one of the big doubts about him is is he going to pick the conservative justice to replace justice scalia.

i have asked the hillary clinton if they plan to put out a similar list i have not reached indication that she will. but the supreme court, again, if you're going to rank issues that would be consequential in this election, the supreme court ranks as high as anything i can imagine. three justices that are still sitting on the bench right now are going to be 78 years old, 80 and 80 on election day. . we will talk a lot about the democratic dynamics in the next block. but trump is now doing to think ly.ultaneous he says crazy bernie, crazy bernie, crazy bernie. and then he says he thinks sanders should run as a third-party candidate. what is going on?

is trump inconsistent and crazy? i think he is tried to play all the cards at once. [laughter] john: go fish! yet see! hearts! blackjack! mark: typical troll thing. trumpthings -- triple thing. throw things at the wall and see what sticks. john: when you talk about sanders's people, do you mean a lot, where if sanders isn't the nominee, they will vote for donald trump? arit: every once in a while, you will find someone who was republican in 2008 and now they like ernie sanders -- bernie sanders. maybe like west virginia or kentucky. but most sanders supporters i guess will vote for hillary or i don't know what will happen or i

will write his name in. they are just diehard liberals. like trump is an anathema to them. they don't want to build a new system around donald trump your want to build a new system around socialism. mark: when we come back, kennedy -- kelly o'donnell will join us. if you're watching us and washington, d.c., uconn listen to this program -- you can listen to this program live on radio. ♪

we are back with kelly o'donnell dialed in.

there is an article right now. before i talked to sahil about that come i want to talk to kelly o'donnell who is at a sanders rally in new mexico. kelly: it really helps the candidate who have had one down day in palm springs. public events, but plenty behind-the-scenes conference calls and work. sanders is at santa fe community college and he seems a bit refreshed. but is not hitting hillary clinton as hard as we have seen recently. in making his case that we see city by city and he is trying to really push voters to remain energized as we get to the farthest end of this primary season, not ceding any ground.

the campaign also announced that it raised about $27 million in april. that tops what hillary clinton was able to raise for the fourth month in a row. while there are others doing the campaign map, saying this is really winding down for sanders, he is not willing to give that up. and in a place like new mexico, california to calm, he is talking about adding to his 20 wins and hopes to have voters here be energized. so he's got a lot of stops. and of course, adding to the color of the sanders event before he took the stage, that behind the stage, talking to local media, meeting with people, there was native american music here, adding to a cultural aspect of the campaign trail. , he ise are measuring not as harshly going after hillary clinton today. but this is his first event of the day. john: [laughter] that sort of jibes with your piece anyway.

talk about senators who have been having semi private conversations with senator sanders. arit: it is a very -- sahit: it is a very revealing contrast. a predefined attitude. he continues to go after hillary clinton in pretty strong terms. he continues to paint the democratic party as fundamentally broken and needing major profound reforms to get right again. but behind the scenes, he is doing a lot of handwringing and attention among democrats, that his keeping on this way would hope -- would hurt them in the fall and play into donald trump's hands. calledlast three, he has barbara boxer after some of the chaos in nevada when she was the target as the keynote speaker of some of his supporters. he has also called dick durbin. senator durbin told me that he

came out absolutely convinced that bernie sanders will fight for the team, fight for the democrats in the fall to defeat donald trump. suggestseals to me or suggests to me that come on some level, bernie sanders is playing a game of leverage. he was to go to the convention having picked up as many votes as possible, as many delegates to influence the democrat party platform, and he is using the argument that he needs to keep his supporters are -- supporters energized and do everything he can between now and july in philadelphia. clear,'t been very straightforward about what exactly his strategy and game is, but it is starting to come together. they asked sanders supporters if you would will -- would vote for clinton. said they would. that means 20% won't. ofht years ago, only 60%

clinton supporters said that they would vote for obama. you've talked to a lot of sanders supporters. if he comes out and says everyone who supports me i want to vote for hillary clinton, 72% that raise the number, of his voters, follow hillary clinton? arit: it depends a little bit on hillary clinton. if sanders supporters get the sense that she is not committed to these more to the left changes, then they will stay home. mark: but if he says they are -- if he says hillary clinton is aggressive and a champion, will that be enough for well they reach -- or will they reach their own independent judgment? arit: the problem for sanders is, just because he said, oh, you know, everything is fine -- he didn't tell supporters in nevada to yell and shout. but he did say -- his campaign has been at this idea that there

has been some disenfranchisement, some unfairness. like in new york, voters were purged and arizona had lines and arizona had lines that were long. people see that and they go the extra step. just because sanders says you should vote for hillary clinton, they need to be convinced. mark: i agree. john: thank you for all your time and wisdom and happy friday. have a good weekend. up next, steve case on his new book, "the third wave, an entrepreneurs vision of the future." ♪

mark: welcome. you've got guests.

or we got a guest. and a big thinker about pretty much everything, steve case. he's got a new book out called "the third wave, an entrepreneurs vision of the future." congratulations. steve: thank you very much. mark: it's really about where the world is, where the country is. question,le begs the set the table for us a little bit, what was the first wave? what was the second wave? and now what is the third wave? steve: the first was building the internet. 30 years ago. the second wave in the last 15 years or so, building apps and services. so facebook and google and twitter. and the third wave is integrating the internet more seamlessly throughout our lives, throws aside, things like energy

and transportation, food, health care, education. but it will require different playbook, people, partnerships, policy, to be really effective . john: i have two questions that are related. one, donald trump is a businessman. kindred spirit in donald trump? is there a character there that you recognize and feel a kinship with? steve: at some level, yes. because he has an entrepreneur background. brings on trying to people together on policy, particularly on innovation. frankly, i wish this election had been more focused on entrepreneurship and innovation and the economic outlook. so, lessst year or than half a dozen questions were on these core issues of entrepreneurship and innovation. that is the point of the book.

i'm not trying to drag you to the realm of politics, we don't ago. steve: sure you are. john: hillary clinton and donald as an entrepreneur who wants to greater policy climate that is favorable to entrepreneurship, you look at the two of them and what they have said so far in this campaign -- how do you evaluate them relatively speaking -- not saying who you endorse, but how do you evaluate what they have said on these topics? steve: they haven't said that much on these issues. on both sides, it has not been a big focus of the campaigns or the debates. hopefully, that will change in the months to come. 250 years ago, america was a startup. it was just an idea. and the reason it is the way it is is because of the work of .ntrepreneurs

we had the industrial revolution and the technology revolution. -- does it take to remain a lot of things around immigration and investment incentives. we focus on that in the book. mark: it does have a vision for the future. but i want to ask you about the present. in these. third wave roams, what is a what is a realms, current foreshadowing of the future where the internet is playing a big role in the -- re, either like new orleans, they reinvented their school system in the last decade. it's lled education technology. there is a lot of interest in the area of smart cities. autonomous cars is a big part of that. startups are

focused on how do we move around cities? more people are living in cities. that will be another big fame. so it comes across all sectors of the economy. there is a lot of work now in ,eeping people healthy now diagnoses for life-threatening diseases. the third wave comes across a lot of important aspects about our lives. it's where the internet meets the real world. the: it's often said that innovation going on in government is going on at the state and city level. are there places you can point to across the country where there have been innovations in the way government works, or to create aovations that better climate for renovation that could be adaptive to the federal government easily? steve: sure. one positive thing on the federal government, four years ago, the congress has -- past the jobs act.

that has one provision around crowdfunding that went into effect this week. it could be a game changer for people not in silicon valley or new york, but other parts of the country. colorado. i was in we spent some time with the governor and entrepreneurs. their unemployment is under 3%. there he -- there are a lot of cranes. they are building new buildings. it is the government and the private sector working together. i think we will be more than in the third wave. the innovators will need to talk to the policy of -- policymakers, whether at the local level or more. 2% tomoving gdp from 3.5%, what is holding us back? of things.t but the most important is we need to focus on entrepreneurs everywhere. last year, 75% of venture

capital went to california, new york and massachusetts. 90% went to men. 1% went to people of color. we need to level the playing field across the country and make sure that everybody has a chance. if you look at the data from the kauffman foundation can all the job growth comes from these young startups, not from the small businesses and the big as this is, but the young startups. if you want to drive economic growth or job growth, you have to focus on the startups. but not just up in a few places. everywhere across the country. mark: congratulations again. the best selling book. you can buy it on the internet. john: steve is the new almond hostler. mark: yeah. ler.lvin toss mark: yeah. ♪

john: you can watch a sunny time on bloomberg.com. this week, we talk about the new which -- " "winner" ."iner "bloomberg west" emily chang is talking to in cart ceo. -- to insta until next week, sayonara.

>> bloomberg west. reports aated press leaked manifest for flight 804 contained no known names on

current watchlist. officials say it's still too early to tell what brought down the paris flight which had 66 people on board. fallina governor mary has vetoed a bill that would .ake abortions a felony mr. trump, who in 2000 afforded eight small weapons ban -- n assault a weapons ban said he would not let them down. the white house was placed on lockdown for about an hour today. president obama was not her at the time of the incident. mexico has approved the