john: tony blair is the only have won three consecutive general elections. he is a controversial figure in britain and the wider world. role, donaldt his trump, and about brexit. i think we will remain. it is a referendum.

if you look at the opinion polls, it is very close. you've got to be concerned about it. john: the old seems to be the ones who are winning to come out and they are most likely to vote. will be aink there big turnout for this. there are seismic economic consequences. i can't believe people will shuffle the spinoff. i think we will get a higher turnout than a general election. i may be wrong about that. that's what i think. it's one of the situations where prettyld have to be small minded not to understand its importance. on the assumption that people realize if you remain or leave has got consequences for the country and you as an individual. i would expect to come out and vote. there is some simplicity in the

decision. i think you'll get a bigger turnout than a general election. surprised about the fervor? tony: i think british people are coming to terms with what it's all about. they find it confusing. thatyou look at the issues dominated the last election, europe is pretty far down the list. annexedugh there was exceptional difference, it made the difference in the conservatives getting in. there is a small, relatively small group of people who care passionately. now the debate has been joined. in 2005 youmber went on the masochism strategy.

you let people attack you or ask you questions. as david cameron done enough that? there is nothing more he could do as prime minister. he has put himself out there. he has put the arguments out there. he has taken a strong position it. john: is a boris johnson somebody who is fit to be prime minister? tony: that is not dependent on this vote. i just find it hard to understand how someone who has been the mayor of london tickets not going to be economically damaging if britain leaves the european union. one of the things i find it i amge is when people say not quite sure, but i have come

down on the side of remain. you can only before remain if you are absolutely clear. if you're not clear, then don't do it. if you look back on some of the things he has said in the past, he thinks it would be wrong for britain to use -- leave the european union. i think it's a strange position to find yourself in. andou've been in government that isr of london, some situation of government, you know how big this decision is. get ay after, you will serious economic shock to the country. you literally cannot dispute that. you will put them on the table. your entire relationship with has beenean union

interlocking trade agreements and service agreements. to be that has got scrapped been renegotiated. half of our trade is with the european union. suffer a years of economic uncertainty. you find it hard to picture him at number 10? is that what is driving politics in the west, not just brexit. you've got donald trump. result against the third way? you and bill clinton took withics and you melded it globalization. of that have the sense

being turned over. has something changed? tony: i think something has changed. the center ground has lost its traction on the political debate and we've got to get it back. when i am on both sides of the atlantic, there is a sense among people that they are frustrated with the system. they don't feel like it's responding to their anxieties and concerns. almost a rattling of the cage. you've got to listen. what you find when you dig a little deeper on this, what is ae consequence if you take brexit or elect donald trump? it's about shaking up the

system. resurgent movement of revolt and rebellion. theal media gives in ability to mount those movements with speed and at scale. those movements take a long time and now they are very fast and they make an immediate impact. of dismissive attitude toward people saying this is very complex and it's very difficult and a solution takes time. againstost a revolt that strain of political thinking. way, if youy the take these actions, they do have consequences. that has thisry populism and put it in government, the only country

that has done that in the developed world is greece. the consequences are very obvious. the leadership that came in split between those people who had come to terms with the reality and those people who just refuse to come to terms with reality. the bailout program has become more severe. three or four years later, i think in the end that is one response to this. the other response has got to be a radical centrist agenda. you've got to be the changemakers in society and not the guardians of the status quo. john: where should the center push now? tony: you've got to make globalization work.

it's not a policy of government. it's driven by people, the .nternet, migration it's driven by the way the world works today. the world is coming closer together. john: it's difficult to explain to people who've lost their jobs or gone through things that they have to wait for things to get better. you're bound to lose out. tony: if you just tell them you have to wait until it gets better, that's not a good response. there is a way through it. it's around education, infrastructure, making sure we reduce the cost of government through technology. it's about reshaping the way government works. if you say it's about making country reform our

public services in a way that better quality education and care, you can make this argument work for people. what does not work is telling them it's very difficult and you have to trust us. let's be very clear. the answers are not with the populism. thiscome together in anti-globalization. it's not going to work. you know it's not going to work. the people who are out of work, that's not the answer they are giving. the answer is better education and infrastructure and linking the country up in a better way. that is the answer. next, more with tony blair. ♪

john: two things which always

come up in this debate, one is immigration. on the immigration side, you backed people to come in when poland and others joined the european union in 2004. do you regret that open door approach now? has that come back to bite us? hindsightlook back in and i understand the criticism. our economy in 2004 was booming. we had a requirement for people to come in. free movement is a principle of the european union. you could have staged it. where you are today, you would still be in the same position. ist is important to realize it's not a two way street.

it's true from the enlargement of the european union, you had more migration. one of the things that has been missing from this debate is the advantage to having an enlarged european union. of margaretolicy thatcher and john major. today look at the world and you look at the anxiety people in eastern europe have nationalism, we should be glad that these companies -- countries are bound in the eu. ukraine.oland and the who is in the better state? , it's end, these debates important to get across to people that when these decisions are taken, they are not taken likely. they are taken for major strategic reasons of our own national interest.

of the way the elites explained to things. we thought it would only be 15,000 people a year. it's been hundreds of thousands. as there a fault in that? tony: people came because people here were employing them. if you took eastern european labor out of the national health service, you would have to replace 100,000 people. they come in on short-term contracts. sector, theyltural are not taking somebody else's job. i understand the fears about immigration. withght my last election immigration as the critical issue. i am completely sympathetic on this issue about how communities get changed. the answer is not to shut our

borders down. if you do that in the european single market, you're going to cause problems for the country. if you want back into the single market, norway is accessing single market, there is a demand that we allow people to have access. they are not in the eu. they don't have the ability to fashion the rules. if you look at these arguments rationally, they stack up very strongly. we've got a situation where someone is an expert. that's the worst insult you can level at somebody. if some institute produces a report that shows people coming into our country pay more in taxes than they receive in efforts by a long way, rational evidence is a good thing to work

on. john: you understood the politics game better than anybody else. at what you handed over to gordon brown, do you recognize that today? angerthere has been this and angst. social media is a revolutionary phenomenon. it creates these waves of sentiment and emotion. to me they can take over a political party. we are an example. it's not clear to me that they can take over a country, not a major wasting -- western nation. john: there is an issue of the super wealthy. , people sayss of it

people seem to get rich of regardless of what happened. do you understand that side of it? is that an old thing revisited? tony: there is that feeling for sure. those people at the very top of done much better. that is true. i'm not sure they haven't always done that, but nonetheless, the way wealth is created, you can point to people with hedge funds. john: that is part of globalization. economy,ve a global the winners of the top going to be bigger winners than they were before. david beckham is able to make more money. again, it depends that people think it's worse if they make money in business and if they are a film star or a

football star. i think that's an issue. that that low middle class and working class, if you look back over these last years, the labor market is a lot more uncertain for people. i think the labor market is going to carry on. i think we've got a new technological revolution around the way around artificial intelligence and the data. you will find the service sector is starting to get disrupted by new technology and new ways of providing services to people which are much more individualized. you're are going to find a huge disruption and a greater economic insecurity. the issue is the answer to it. i know this makes people anxious. protecter is not to

from change. this is the way the world is changing. john: there is this question of what you do for people at the bottom of society. the other is the philip green argument, that the people at the top seem to grin away with a great deal and that causes enormous resentment. peopleou find people say responsible for the financial crisis, there was no penalty paid by them. banks, thereain were thousands of job losses. i think ultimately this is more about how people feel about their own circumstances and i there was anel escalator that you thought you got on by hard work and endeavor. hard, carried on working your children would be better

off and do better than you. i think there is a feeling that has stopped. i think the answers to that are difficult. they are not about trying to stop the world changing because you can't. it's about equipping people for the change. that is a much more difficult argument to make. it's also the only one that works. john: do you think he should be stripped of that knighthood? tony: i don't think about that at all. realize over a long amount of time, there is in many jobs created in the u.k.. up next, tony blair on jeremy corbyn.

tony: talk about the labour party. jeremy corbyn has talked about trying you for war crimes if you were found guilty of them in the report. you said he is a dangerous experiment. is the labour party in a worse place and it was when you first started? that ihe aside the fact am accused of being a criminal for removing saddam hussein who was a war criminal. he is seen as a progressive icon. syria the people of starved into submission. what is the best way you take the traditional values of the left and apply

them to the modern world. it's always been that. whether it's foreign policy or domestic policy, how do we improve people's lives? when we were in government, we did improve people's lives. minimum wage did an enormous amount. if you take one example foreign policy away, the international department of development that funded,ed and that we that helped millions of people around the world. it's the foremost development agency in the world. progressive politics is about being in power and finding modern solutions to the challenges of the modern world. it's not just about expressing your protest or anger about the people who are in power. john: it's not just and emotion.

it's about having a purpose. it's about understanding that unless you are ready to take responsibility, there are two types of politicians. face is on.uy whose that's me. difficultking decisions. you become a figure of controversy and people protest you. that's my type of politics. jeremy is the guy. he is the guy holding it. politics of power and the other is the politics of protest. if you want to change people's lives, you've got to be the politics of power. john: how well do you know him? some people said they never met him. he is -- i've got nothing

against him personally. the leader of the labour party has to be an instrument of power. about thoseorried people who haven't got opportunities, who are in dead-end jobs, how are you going to help them. when we protest against the conservative cuts, what are we cutting? things we introduced in government. david cameron is going through some of the same experiences, not having unity in the. what advice do you give him? tony: do your best. this is politics. today, it's a more difficult profession.

the interaction between intermediate and social media -- john: is it a more difficult job? tony: the wall of noise around is as he makes decisions larger and louder than anything before. are and all of these things , youyou're not careful read the stuff on twitter. it's 140 characters. believe it or not, you can't. people have these very strong opinions. if you are a politician, leadership is all calibrating in front of people. you don't want to be so far in

front that you look behind you and no one is there. tony: that is what your joints together jeremy corbyn and donald trump? tony: you see this all over europe. more afraide you of? tony: i have been indiscreet enough. john: what about the way you change people? david cameron does have an opportunity. he will have settled that. he is not standing in the next election. john: should he serve all the way through the end. got a realnk he's

opportunity to provide leadership. there are some domestic issues. this is how you provide solutions that meet what people conceive of as the need for radical change. what is making that change sensible and not in contrast to the modern world. if policies go against the grain, you end up in a cul-de-sac. . john: we have looked at the cruel reality of globalization. make written a more cosmopolitan place. those things are in retreat. it disconcerting

and discomforting sometimes. positiont to hold your and if you think it's right, you see it through. ultimately, if you take a city ike london, which in the time was in office really came into its own. we won the bid for the olympics. it's become a great multicultural, iconic city in the world today. is thises it great ability to go across the boundaries of race and culture and be socially liberal around issues like gay people and race an agenda. idea of a culture that is based on values, it still where most people really want to be. what is necessary and what is

office,is when i was in there was a fair degree of consensus of that view of the world. under a track from the right. that's not completely new. deeper and is much more powerful than before. we're going to have to go out there and construct an agenda for 2016 and the years to come that is about a radical center in making change. it does not say stop the world. anybody in thee younger ranks who looks like they can carry forward that claim? tony: i think there are lots of people. support for this position.

without choosing names, when i look of the younger generation of the labour party, there are some fantastic people. it takes a lot to go into politics these days you have to read a bit of the traffic on social media to realize you've got to be a strong-minded person. john: henry kissinger said it's strange to prepare for it now. it's now much harder for people to develop those political skills when you've got social media following every single thing you do. we will find a way of adapting to that. you have to develop different skills. level, i was going to say rude behavior in politics.

even the politicians in the end it, it's a much rougher business. part of a problem with the way the modern world works is if you a, ifeeting on television there is an audience there, a member of the audience will say something to interrupt you or shout or stand up and make some demonstration of some sort. you are in a new type of environment politically and it makes it very hard for modern politicians. they will have to adapt to that. these decisions matter. you can argue what you like about brexit, it matters. next, tony blair on donald trump and the american presidential race. ♪

john: there is another campaign this year in america. common ground with george w. bush. now the republican candidate wants to build a wall with mexico. he wants to discourage muslims from visiting america. could you find common ground with a president trump? tony: it's not clear to me what the common ground would be. john: that's a very different answer. would you find it impossible? tony: the american election is up to the american people. it's not clear to me what these politicians really are. some of the things being talked about, a trade war with china

would be devastating to both sides. i can't believe that's what he would actually want to do. muslimsiterally say no can come into america, thus not a policy we could go along with. aside even foreign policy, george bush was in favor of free trade. he was in favor of nato. andorked with me on africa he was the largest life-saving program that any developed policy has ever had in africa. we worked together on debt relief for the poorest african nations. i have no idea what a trump presidency would look like. john: trump has never had

elected office before. george bush was the governor of texas. is it easier to find common ground with other politicians? big change going on with the center right in the center left. you've got quite a lot in common. probably more in common in a strange way than the center left has with the far left in the center right has with the far right grid that's the way the world is today. it's one of the curiosities. you've ended up in a situation whoe there are those of us solutions to find that are based on values. john: you would see donald as part of the same phenomenon?

tony: we come from different traditions. we will remain in different traditions. for all of that time, i've been in the same labor are in -- party as jeremy corbyn. my politics is different than his. view, the labour party and the politics of the left has got to be a project of modernization all the time or we are defenders of the status quo. someonellary clinton is who is not exactly in favor of free trade area she is against charter schools. issue someone who is still a

modernizer in the sense you would want? tony: i have no doubt as president she would be a modernizer and a center ground politician. i've worked with her closely. i've got enormous respect for her. the types of policies she would want to pursue our practical and about america as an engaged power in the world. john: the kind of america and britain that you and bill clinton pushed, do you think that is gone? do you look back and think some of the things there for this in one way or another? tony: we were arguing the case very strongly. was very successful.

we had 10 years of uninterrupted growth. it was easier to make that case. changed thel crisis context in which that debate is happening. it doesn't change the fundamental nature of the debate. the world is changing fast. justicees around social don't change. we have to apply them differently. the world is different. that's the fundamental difference. we are not going to resolve the problems of the financial crisis . we are not going to do that. is one lesson that is clear

less free trade means more unemployment and less prosperity. is the rest of the world ready for president trump? you travel a lot. the world will, it will current -- come to terms. john: do you take into account a president trump when advising people? clearright now, it's not what that would mean. nominating time out of the way, you get down to a real debate. placerld is an uncertain today.