donald trump? tony: it is the same phenomenon, left and right. you see this all over europe. john: who are you more worried about? jeremy corbyn or donald trump? [laughter] tony: i have probably been indiscreet enough. john: what about how you persuade people to change away john: what about how you persuade people to change away from that? what do you think happens david cameron post-referendum? tony: i think there is a real opportunity for him because i think he has secured that, settled that. he is not standing in the next election, so -- john: do you think you should serve all the way through to the end? tony: he has a real opportunity to provide leadership and it

could do it domestic issues and europe and national security, but as a whole, the issue is how you provide solutions that meet what people conceive of as the need for radical change. what is making that change sensible and in tune with the modern world and not in contrast with it. because if you advocate policies that go against the grain, you end up in a cul-de-sac. john: we have looked at the different issues and the cruel magic of globalization. we have looked at internationalism, how you have tried to make britain a more cosmopolitan place. those things are in retreat. tony: i find it disconcerting and discomforting sometimes.

you've got to hold your position and if you think it's right, you see it through. ultimately, if you take a city like london, which in the time i was in office really came into its own as a great city. you know, we won the bid for the olympics. it's become a great multicultural, iconic city in the world today. what makes it great is this ability to go across the boundaries of race and culture and be socially liberal around issues like gay people and race and gender. i think this idea of a culture that is based on values, it is still where most people really want to be. what is necessary and what is obvious is when i was in office, there was a fair degree of

consensus behind that view of the world. we have to understand that today, it is under strong attack from the left and right. that's not completely new. the context in which it is happening is much deeper and more powerful than before. we're going to have to go out there and construct an agenda for 2016 and the years to come that is about a radical center and that to is about making change. but making change that helps the modern world work and it does not say stop the world. john: do you see anybody in the younger ranks who looks like they can carry forward that flame? tony: i think there are lots of people. in the end, however much under attack, there is strong support for this position. without choosing names, when i

look of the younger generation of the labour party, there are some fantastic people. really excellent and strong people. it takes a lot to go into politics these days. you have to read a bit of the traffic on social media to realize you've got to be a strong-minded person. john: henry kissinger said it's very difficult to prepare for leadership now because you live in an era where people grow up and i am sure you made mistakes that you would not jump on now. it's now much harder for people to develop those political skills when you've got social media following every single thing you do. tony: i think because of the importance of these political positions, we will find a way of adapting to that. i think the ecosystem of politics has definitely changed. you have to develop different skills. there is a level, i was going to say rude behavior in politics.

abusive or rude. even the politicians in the end, it's a much rougher business. part of a problem with the way the modern world works is if you do for example, a debate on television and there is an audience there, the only thing that will get reported is if a member of the audience interrupts you, shouts or makes a demonstration of some sort. you were really is a new type of environment and it makes it very hard for modern politicians. they will have to adapt to that. they will find a way to do that because in the end, these decisions matter. you can argue what you like about brexit, it matters. john: up next, tony blair on donald trump and the american presidential race. ♪

♪ john: there is another campaign this year in america. you famously found common ground with george w. bush. now the republican candidate who we alluded to earlier wants to trade more with china, wants to build a wall with mexico. he wants to discourage muslims from visiting america. could you find common ground with a president trump? tony: it's not clear to me what the common ground would be. john: that's a very different answer. you managed to find common ground with george w. bush, that implies you would almost find it impossible? tony: the american election is up to the american people. it's not clear to me what these policies really are. if they are some of the things that have been talked about, a trade war with china would be

devastating to both sides. i can't believe that's what he would actually want to do. if you literally say no muslims can come into america, thus not -- that is not a policy we could go along with. people often forget something like this of president bush, leave aside even foreign policy, george w. bush was in favor of alliance, free trade and the transatlantic alliance, and strongly in favor of nato. he worked with me on africa and he was the largest life-saving program that any developed a policy has ever had in africa. we worked together on debt relief for the poorest african nations. there were lots of things we could work on together. i have no idea what a trump presidency would look like. john: trump has never had elected office before. george w. bush was the governor of texas. is it easier to find common

ground with other politicians? tony: it's a big change going on with the center right in the center left. you've got quite a lot in common. probably more in common in a strange way than the center left has with the far left in the center right has with the far right. that's the way the world is today. it's one of the curiosities. you've ended up in a situation where there are those of us who are trying to find solutions that are based on values. but are what i would call non-ideological and practical solutions and sometimes you can find common ground. john: you would see donald as part of the same phenomenon? people like yourself and david cameron and barack obama are in

a different place? tony: we come from different traditions. we will remain in different traditions. i have been a member of the labour party for about 40 years. for all of that time, i've been in the same labour party as jeremy corbyn. it would not be a shock to people to say my type of politics is different from his. what marks it out as different, in my view, the labour party and the politics of the left has got to be a project of modernization all the time or we are defenders of the status quo. john: hillary clinton is someone who is not exactly in favor of free trade, which she mentioned earlier. she is against charter schools. against academies as we would see it.

is she someone who is still a modernizer in the sense you would want? tony: i have no doubt as president she would be a modernizer and a center ground politician. i mean, i have known her for a great many years and i have worked with her closely and she is someone i've got enormous respect for. i'm am sure the types of policies she would want to pursue our political policies and about america as an engaged power in the world. john: the kind of america and britain that you and bill clinton pushed, do you think that is gone? do you look back and think some of the things we did helped prepare the ground for this in one way or another? tony: we were arguing the case very strongly. also, the economy was very successful. both under him and when i was prime minister of the u.k. when

we had 10 years of uninterrupted growth. it was easier to make that case. i think the financial crisis changed the context in which that debate is happening. but i think the really interesting thing is that it doesn't change the fundamental nature of the debate. you know what i mean? in other words, the idea that really motivated bill clinton in the united states and myself in the u.k., is the values around social justice, commitment to equality of opportunity. those values do not change. we have to apply them differently. the world is different. that's the fundamental difference. it was true then and is to now. we are not going to resolve the problems of the financial crisis by shutting down free trade between nations. we are not going to do that. the one lesson that is clear is less free trade means more unemployment and less

prosperity. john: is the rest of the world ready for president trump? you travel a lot. tony: i think it is pretty obvious what the world thinks. the world will, it will come to terms. let's wait and see what they the americans actually decide. john: do you take into account a president trump when advising people? tony: right now, it's not clear what that would mean. once you get the nominating time out of the way, you get down to a real debate. let's see what happens. the world is uncertain and difficult place today. let's say this presidential election will be watched as closely as any i can remember. john: up next, tony blair and the middle east.

♪

♪ john: let's look at the middle east. you worked as an envoy there. when you were prime minister, america was energetically involved in the middle east, too much some say, do you think it is possible that any kind of resolution can happen without america being more involved? tony: america is involved on the israeli-palestinian front, but i personally do not think you'll get that resolution with the issue. i spent a huge amount of time on it. i have been to the region two or three times every month.

john kerry is still very much involved in it. i think the key there is in cooperation. [indiscernible] the key to opening that door is the palestinian -- [indiscernible] i think the important thing to realize about israeli public opinion today is two things. the first thing, the anxiety about palestinians about the government. unifying palestinian politics in favor of peace. that concerns the israelis

because when you look at that, they have to be sure that palestine is going to be a safe and secure neighbor for them. the second thing is i also think that the majority of people in israel understand that one state with two peoples inside it is going to be a very difficult, if not impossible, task of management. on the one hand, they need to know that this palestinian state is going to be securely governed, but on the other hand, they do understand in principle that two states need one solution. john: can you push it toward that? or is there a position on both sides? tony: right, again, right now, the politics are not strong enough to carry on their shoulders the weight of a peace protest. if you involve the region -- john: and possibly the world? tony: and obviously would have to involve america and europe,

but it is the region in my view that is the key player. if they are helping carry this process, and this is why the arab peace initiative might be the right framework to reach this, if they are involved, then it will give the israelis confidence that they are making peace not just with the pasta -- palestinians but for the region. and it will give the palestinians confidence that they will be aided and assisted in the region. john: the other ally in the region is saudi arabia. we now have a deputy prince who

is trying to bring economic reform to saudi arabia. do you see a change that might affect the politics in saudi arabia? tony: i think that it has been one of the most significant changes that has come about in the region and these past years. and i think the program of economic change and social change will be of fundamental importance to the future health of the region. john: do you think it can be pushed through? he is a young man. tony: yes. he is young. to be frank, the saudi system has been discussed many years. it has gone from being the one it has gone from being a rather slow moving to one that is moving fast, but it is a young population. young people in saudi arabia understand they need change. he is really driving that change. the vision that they set out is

obviously sensible, modern, forward-looking visions but the country. implementing it will be hard, but i think he has the executive capacity and the support to do it. by the way, it is an absolutely vital, strategic interest for the west that he succeeds. john: what about the saudi-iran relationship? it is very cross with america in some ways doing the deal with iran. is that the biggest source of tension in the region in the long-term? the clash between the saudis and iran? tony: i think the longest and biggest tension is the need for the region to achieve new role-based economies and a religiously tolerant society. these are the two big things at the heart of the struggle in the middle east. i think that is far more important, even though i understand all the implications of the tensions between saudi

arabia and iraq. the saudis problem with iraq is their desire to export the anaconda stick -- anaconda stick -- anachronistic revolutionary ideology, so it is not with what the americans had them with iran that is wrong, if you put a constraint on the program, that is a plus and not a minus, the problem is what the iranians continue to do within the region is export instability and chaos. they are supporting in yemen and they will do anything they can to put hostility toward israel rather than lead them into a position when they can be part of the peace process, so when you look at what the iranians are actually doing around the region, it is hostile to her interest and hostile to religious tolerant societies and so this is a problem, frankly. in the end, i think you'll find

that the saudi issue it iran is not to do it sunni versus shiite, it has to do with the impact of iranian policies that is dictated by those who are ultimately fine iran from -- govern iran from the rest of the region. john: is there any sign of a change in iran admits the nuclear deal? tony: it is really difficult to read. the iranian people are smart, educated and capable. and i have no doubt that if they had the freedom to elect, they would elect. but the truth is they are not. the ultimate power still remains with religious [indiscernible] you can debate this and people have different views about this, and it may be that they want to take the country a different direction. i think it is hard to judge. if you look at the activities of the religious leadership and the

revolutionary guards of iran, they are doing what they have always been doing. i think when you look at the roots of all of this terrorism around the region, i think in retrospect, we hugely underestimated the impact of the 1979 iranian revolution and shortly afterward the mecca. i think we have greatly underestimated the impact of those two events on the way the region developed. john: you also talked about underestimating iran's interest on iraq after the invasion. was that also part of it? tony: absolutely. that resistance in iraq with too much iranian influence, i think we could still use that because i think in the end, the iraqis do want to stay where they are. john: you have inquiries and in the past few weeks, you have apologized about the faulty intelligence, apologize for not

realizing what would happen once saddam left and you put a lot of blame on that in al qaeda and iran and you say you now understand the middle east better than you did then. do think there is anything you can do to draw a line under this? tony: i have said those things for many years and not just the past few weeks. one of the reasons why when the arab spring's again, i was cautious at that point, precisely because of the experience i went through, so they would be an opportunity to go into these arguments. but i think in the end, the most important thing to understand is how you step back now in the context of the middle east. it is in turmoil in part because it is in transition. the transition is all about whether this dogmatic religious view of how countries should develop triamcinolone what would -- should develop triamcinolone

what is more materialistic and should be more tolerant. religiously tolerant. john: thank you for joining us. tony: thank you. ♪

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