♪announcer: from our studios in new york city, this is "charlie rose." charlie: we continue this evening with our coverage of britain's exit from the european union. it's set off a series of consequences. the pound has fall be 88% again the dollar in two day and the s and p has downgraded britain's credit rating. the dow fell another 1.7%. political unrest has also heighteneding britain's

opposition labour party has split into camps and already half of david cameron's cabinet as resigned. officials tried to give ainsurance to the public and to the perez. >> they've said reassuring things to the market. it's clear now the budget fear iso. pensions are safe. the market are stable and i think that's all have good new. charlie: mr. david cameron who mans to leave office in october said he would leave it to his successor to set in motion britain's. up exit. michael grobe has left open the possibility that a second referendum could take place, however in an address to parliament today david cameron said there must be no doubt on

the result. >> i will report directly on the decision of the british people but i think important that we set off on this path of exiting from the european union with trying to build as much good will as possible on both side. charlie: in a joint statement, germany's angela merkel and other leaders urged britain to make a swift exit from the e. up. joining us, david sanger of "the new york times" and greg ip of the wournls. here in new york with me, john cassidy to have new yorker. i go first to ronald in london. tell me what happened today that we could -- we should take note of? >> today you had the financial market reckoning. a further dive in the value of sterling against the dollar and the yen and the euro. you saw also a big selloff in equities, the banks being hammered and then just right

after market close, the up k. top-notch iple-a grade. s&p downgrades us. this is the beginning and it's what a lot of people predicted but i'm afraid many other who voted leave and campaigned for leave, the european union said the people are fed-up with the expert. charlie: any left on the part of those in london that believe they can revote? >> there's lots. more than three million people have signed a petition say thinking want a second referendum. we have some of the leading advocates who voted leave and campaigned for leave say they now have buyer's remorse but david cameron made it clear that's -- there's not going to be a second referendum. we're out and now we have to figure out our relationship with

the european union. charlie: beyond the economic aspects of this and relationships among nations and rhythmses with the european commission and the commission's relationship with even, what's e impact in terms of geo political struggle? >> there's the british hipp relationship, of course, with the. u. but there are so many intralocking and interdependent other elements of britain's relationship. obviously it's a member of nato. 2 members of the. up are. it is a key member of many other international groups and it's a big question that's being asked here in washington, to what degree does britain's influence decline there and how does that hitter the united states? of course in washington everybody everything comes back to what does it mean for us, right? so the concern is that the relationship, the special rhythm with britain is more than a

phrase that goes back to roosevelt and churchill. it also connotes the fact that britain was often the one that intervened directly with other european nations, that moderated their trade demnds -- demands, that numbed -- nudged them along to contribute more militarily not only to nato but other efments and acted sort of as the informal crood coordinator of intelligence, something that we've learned in the attacks of paris and brussels europe is still having a hard time doing, sharing intelligence. the largeo -- larger question is if britain loses influence, if it is distracted for the next few years but this bid of political chaos, is it going to be able to play that hole and -- role and is there anything else able to step into it?

the answer i heard over the weekend is pretty much not. the germans don't have the desire or capability to step out military. the french, there's too much sand in the gears between the way the u.s. sees the world and the way the french do at times. italy is too broke. the nether land is too small. the list goes on. poland is not ready to step up to that roam. i think there are many in washington looking around trying to figure this out and why john kerry is in both brussels and london today. charlie: i happened to be in europe in the time in germany interviewing the president right after he left germany and had been there campaigning. he said you'll have more influence in the european union and you'll do more of all of us if you're in the european union. he hammered that time after time. >> that's right and i was there in that remarkable news

conference with prime minister cam sexron in my insulated way i thought he had made a pretty compelling case and probably had moved a fair number of votes within britain despite the criticism that he was intervening in british politics. i guess the answer is we were all listening to that in london be, not the rest of the country. charlie: why is vladimir putin cheering? >> putin sees this issue is one that divides the europeans and therefore helps him, i think, as he reasserts his power, sending bombers on bombing runs along the coast, submarines underneath -- off the coast of many european countries and i think he believes that europe is both divided and distracted is not going to be able to stand up to him as much. charlie: thank you, david. why did -- lose?

>> they didn't -- remain lose? >> they didn't run a very good campaign to start with. project fear is that -- what it was called. most people thought that would work. it did for a few months but in the last month or so of campaigning, the leave campaign turned it into basically a referendum about immigration and the influx of workers and syrians, etc. they used a lot of very misleading argument but they seep emed to have worked with the -- seemed to have worked with the british public. there was a certain level of complacency by the establishment. despite some of the polls, showing that leaving was winning. most in the media and political establishment thought that when it came down to it, risk aversion and sheer caution would persuade enough team people to vote remain. they'd get a lot of votes but lose narrowly. it seemed a lot of remain people

stayed at home. high turnout in leave areas, low turnout in remain areas and it all added up to a lose. charlie: would you agree, lionel? >> it's shocking in a country that is open, open trailed. as david was saying we've been an american ally arguing for sthrabization. that has flown it into reers is. people in the big cities are out of touch with the rest of the country. people who felt margin liesed. fear of immigration as opposed to real immigration. a lot of people who voted out actually were not touched by immigration. these people who felt out of touch with the government voted out. i think there were a lot of people who just feel left behind by globalization.

we've tended to think, people in the big cities, a city like london with it frnl center where we have lots -- we have 500,000 french people living in london. we're comfortable with this. but other communities feel neglected, marginalized. the middle is being squeezed. particularly after the financial criticize. this is a particular lag influence after the financial crisis and i think in that respect, there are lessons to the candidates, particularly mr. trump, ahead of the november presidential elax. charlie: speak to the economic impact to the global economy because of this. >> the short-term impact is pretty obvious. you've seen that in the decline of stock markets around the world. it's going a big hit to british mick growth. we've already heard several large companies say they're going to move jobs out of britain because they're less

useful there in a britain outside of the european union. there's going to be a spillover impact on the european union. stock markets are fallen more in europe than they have in britain. that's fear of what i call political contagion. you saw the netherlands and france use the brexit vote as a refund up for we should have a vote too. in france, the sentiment for leaving the. u. is even stronger than have the in greet britain. -- great britain. the final point is the impact on the entire world. i think in a year or two we'll have worked our way there out short-term impact on sentiment and the stock market but this is a reflection point and move away from globalization. if we have higher barriers to the move of fwoods and product, less free trade, that is ultimately a slower growing world.

charlie: will that happen, though? >> that's a very good question and what i've found interesting about brexit, it's been a test for those of us as people tend to see i see it as an affirmation of whatever their priors were. if you were a liberal you saw it as a -- in globalization and the power of inequality. within hours of the vote, you saw boris johnson, the former mayor of london and run of the leaders of the leave movement say no, this was not a vote against immigration. we still they britons and europeans should be free to work in each other's countries. whether this will be the big turning point in globalization depends on what happens in the next three or four terms. what are the terms by which britain negotiates it separation from the rest of the european union. if it turns out that whoever

replaces david cameron tries to come back with something similar to what we have now, we may look back and say it wasn't the big deal we think it is now. and we know -- don't know how election upcoming in germany and the get -- netherlands are going to respond. charlie: is boris johnson the next prime minister of great britain? >> i don't know. he's certainly a strong contender at this stage. watch out for allow weedsa may. soft spoken -- louisea may. soft spoken, and she's been warning if years there were too many immigrants coming into the european join something had to be done. 124est been the one in closer political touch. i would say one thing about greg's argument. i think it's important to not draw premature conclusions but

there's a big point here that this brexit crisis is not going to be resolved in a matter of weeks or months. we won't know what kind of british plan there is until the next british prime minister is chosen by september and then it's going to take at least two years to negotiate a deal with the european union. whether there's 27 countries that going to have a say. charlie: do you expect to see other country take this path? >> i'm not even confident britain is going to take this path. i think the chances of brexit actually going through is not much more than 50-50 at this stage. there's been so much movement in the markets and prominent leave people having second thought and fearful of the future. i think if they had the referendum again this week it would go down quite heavily. charlie: the fact that david

cameron said he didn't want to have a part of that. >> heaviest playing a strange game. e's trying to get maximum keo. resign moldly. he said he'd represent -- respect it will of the people but he didn't do that. he said i'm going to resign in three months' time. that threw the whole political system in chaos for three months and gave people a chance to sort of think again, i think. i'm not saying i know what's going to happen. it's complete chaos but there could easily be a new general election. could be a new leader on the general election. get a lot of support from the business community. . i don't think this game is finished. charlie: i agree on so many things but in this, not quite. there is method in this supposed

madness. the reason that david cameron did not invoke the article 15 of the lisbon treaty is because that would be irrevocable. that would set in motion the chain of circumstances where we do withdraw. what he's done now is say right, i'm going to be prime minister for a while but now we're not going to have a second referendum. he can't say that. what he's done is open up a gap. listen to angela merkel of germany. she said it's ok. it's up to the brits to decide when to invoke article 50. what this needs is a period of reflection, a period of time where we work out what kind of deal we want. plarkts crash, if there's a resex in britain, plarkts crash,

if there's a resex in britain, maybe then people are will come to their secretaries and say we need to have a general election or something like that where a new government comes up with a new plan and john may be righting we might ask for our membership back. >> there's a vote in ireland about the expansion of the treaty that govern the european union. there's a little bit of a negotiation to satisfy their concerns and they put it to a second vote and it passed. that's one reason why you shouldn't leap to too many conclusions right now. >> i agree with lionel. there's no way you can ignore the referendum. there was a vote for i. it's going to unleash such powerful forces we don't know where things are heading. let's say that west coast of course ris johnson wins the election and becomes the prime minister. does he have a mandate now to take britain out of the e.u. without a further general election? i think a lot of people in parliament, not just linebacker our and liberal depralts would say he needs to go to the scun

and get a mandate himself. the former prime minister said that in parliament today and david cameron didn't knock him down so i think there is the real possibility of another general election in which case that would be a refund up on the result of the refund up. charlie: if boris johnson is a keabt, there would be a real question about his leadership. >> yeah, could he actually bring all the torrey party with him? >> he would agree to a general election if he was up against jeremy corbyn. he could probably beat him hands down. -- t's a new linebackeror labour leader, maybe he won't want a new general election. i worked alongside b of course ris johnson when he was correspondent for the daily telegram and the one world that

comes to mind is elastic. charlie: what would be your definition of elastic? this case? >> b of course ris johnson will do what he thinks is to his interests and when it comes to saying one day from it been another it will be very elastic. john greg alluded to this earlier. he'll -- he's now saying this campaign wasn't about immigration, the vote wasn't about immigration. is is completely opposite of all the campaigning. one thing that i saying is that david cameron caused the lax. we know weaver going to have to move back and just drop and abandon all the tigs that we had so who can do that with the

most panache? b obvious ris johnson. charlie: i saw something on a eatonat suggested that at and oxford, b of course ris johnson was a bigger shining star than david cameron. >> he still hasn't gotten over the fact that he only got a second class on-degree. and david cameron got a first class on his degree. charlie: at fox ford -- oxford. the competition goes that far back? >> it's got serious history. but b of course ris johnson honestly thinks he's many capable than david cameron. he is ambitious. i believe having known and talked to him about his position on europe for a number of years that he's not anti-european. he likes to have his cake and eat it. charlie: greg, reflect more on

terms of contagion here. >> i think one of the reasons you've seen people, especially here in the quiet who are looking at our fall election so flummoxed by the result is trying to understand what it is in the populous that would drive them to this result. a lot of studies showed fairly clearly that brexit was going to leave the average -- five to 10 years from now and yet they voted for it anyway. when it comes to our fall election, for example, there noage race that the left and right side believe that donald trump's policies would be bad for the country, federal on trade. but when you look at the result, you have to say it appear that a lot of voters don't care. maybe the ones who never benefited from globalization so they're not going to lose any sleepo casting a void for a candidate who's against globalization. and you've seen trump playing exactly that note. after the vote on brexit he was

saying my campaign like this campaign is a campaign against the elite. he gave a speech where he said globalization has destroyed the middle class. i think those sorts of emotional words can have an effect that be override the so the traditional debates we tend to have about who's going to make the economy stronger or raise middle class wage fu. >> one thing about trump, i take all the argument about how globalization arguments play into his favre. he's certainly tapping into immigration. i think that's one big difference between the brexit vote and the u.s. election. in the brexit vote you vote leave or remain. in the u.s. election you vote donald trump hillary clinton. prernlsed election. charlie: does hit give him any momentum at all because of the notion that somehow the people

who had been supporting him represent hidden voter but they have the same grieve ans as the -- grievances as the people against government who voted to leave? >> clearly donald trump is tapping into something. he's had the most hellacious month of any politician i can remember but yet he's still only 5 point behind. an average of seven or eight behinds points behind. given what's happened in the last couple of months, that's pretty astonishing. he's clearly gotsupport. he talks about things that resonate in working class and middle class yars. my point is that gives him a platform but it doesn't give him the credibility to jumpo theplasm. charlie: what could you you think they're saying in the hillary clinton campaign? >> you can see that from their message, that we have to address the concerns he's raising.

every speech hillary gives she talk about helping the middle classes. charlie: who might lead the labour party from -- if not the present leader? >> we have an old army general from afghanistan called benjarvus. he's someone to look at. another person did toy with the idea of running and then abruptly pulled out. he's somebody to watch. the blairist crowd heirs of tony blair, it'so for them. it's gone. charlie: thank you, greg, lionel, and john. and to david, who had to leave early. back in a momentful -- moment. stay with you. ♪

charlie: the supreme court concluded it term today in a 5-3 zig, the justifies invalidated priving of a texas law that prays -- police stationed reductions on a texas clinic and also vacated the former conviction of virginia governor bob mcdonald. i'm pleased to have the correspondent from the "new york times." are you surprised by this or not? justice kennedy obviously was the swing justify. >> i was a little bit surprised. you could tell by doing a little bit of deck active work that

briere was the likely author and once you knew that you knew it would be a pro-abortion right moovement. but this is the biggest abortion rights decision since 19 2. it strikes down two parts of a restrictive texas law but it reaffirms a law that makes it ery hard or state to pass ric. charlie: tell us about the ric. >> one of them was to help women's health but they said it was a ruse as a way to shut down clinics. one of them required doctors have admitting privileges at nearby hospitals which are hard to get and many say there no point in that because abortion is a safe procedure. another restriction basically turned them into mini hospital, costing millions of dollars to do. had the law been fully in place,

the effect would be to drive the number of clinics in texas down from about 40 to about 10. this decision means we're probably going to be back at something like the 40 number fairly soon. charlie: and the decent? >> most of it was technical about how some procedure you recall bars hadn't gone through. -- procedural bar hadn't gone through. justice thomas wrote this decision was bad not only because it reaffirmed if 1992 decision, planned parenthood against casey buzz ba it reimagined it, made it easier or courts to strike down abortion clinicings. the chief justice said his

charlie: and the mcdonnell case? adam: it was surprising because it was unanimous. he hadn't taken the kind of official acts that would support can conviction. that theo question governors set up meetings for those benefactors. but the meetings alone were not good enough. to actually intend to or agreed to take some official , and that narrows the corruption laws substantially. it also lets politicians engage in routine quickly favors for their constituents. eight justices signed on to that decision. this did not directly involved mrs. mcdonnell's conviction. it would very likely also serve

to vacate her conviction. now --: what you know what do you do now? adam: i will write a wrapup article trying to make sense of the a justice court. -- the eight justice court. i will say that for the most part the court muddled through deadlocked not infrequently. it agreed on very narrow grounds sometimes in cryptic decisions in an effort to find consensus. but into big cases, affirmative action and abortion, the court delivered to solid liberal victories which is not what you expect from the roberts court. charlie: it is been a pleasure having you on the show. the candidates for the presidency constantly remind us what is at stake.

charlie: they have spent the last 17 years creating music together. torything from all folk indie rock. they have been strong and open supporters of the lgbt community. their latest album love you to death finds them putting complex synthesized dance

pop tracks. the l.a. times says like so much of the best pop from princeton madonna to lady gaga it balances universality and specificity. it seems to reflect the personal experiences of one. here they are performing their hit single, boyfriend, in our studio. ♪ ♪ charlie: claim please to have

taken and sarah at this table for the first time. it started because of your parents watching my show early on. signed her first record deal in the late 90's. we grew up in canada. weatherpersons government a hotel roomharing and turning on the tv and we would watch you. everything in time. it is a marathon not a sprint. charlie: but you have shifted in terms of the kind of music you wanted to do. walk me through that. >> only started playing music we were teenagers. we were reflecting a lot of the music we were listening to. it was more grunge and rock and

punk pop. music has changed a lot but our ability to reflect the things we like about we listen to, we have gotten better at that. reflected our has interest in our confidence. we have turned more into a pop band. we are making pop music but were not pop stars. would be for one of us to grow uninterested in it. we only each other our best. we are very invested in trying to reach of a broader audience. there are not a lot of queer women in the mainstream. we are clear. queer.

charlie: is that attorney like? >> we like that better than lesbian. she said lesbian makes it sound like we have an affliction. grade and in 10th did high school psychology class i remember very clearly being given these handouts about mental illness. one of the ones that was crossed was homosexuality. i am in the early years of me understanding that i was deathly different. i do my sexuality was different. i remember being humiliated by reading this. don't worry, it used to be a disease but we've changed our minds. i was very affected by that. those words stayed with me.

is a reclaiming of sexuality and gender it is more of a broader identity. we are reclaiming a words that still to this day can sound very difficult for a lot of people. it is a word that is used against gay people. to talk more broadly about identity. how close are you? is every instant the same? instincts the same? developmentally because we had so many of the same things happen. we would say our relationship is a bit like a marriage. you've been married to someone for 35 years you can read the thoughts. music is our child.

area that weeral both fit into. we sit on either extremes. i like electronic music, sarah liked verio obscure electronic music. charlie: are you competitive with each other? >> we have come to terms with what we would've described in our relationship as competition. it made us feel like people were trying to divide us. there was an instincts to say that we were not competitive. but we push each other. i am one of the few people who can say to her singer this way or you can do better with those lyrics. sarah said that she spent 80 hours recording it again and again and again. recorda song on our last

called closer the did very well, i wrote it in 22 minutes. i got zero comments back. i pulled on my keyboard and i said whatever. i started writing the hook. i said to sarah and she wrote me right back. she said finish it. that means she likes it. i write more than she does. she spends too much time on it. >> i enjoy the time. she sometimes wants to complete it and that gives her satisfaction. my satisfaction is actually in the process. charlie: you have good fortune to open for a lot of big people.

>> we started our career opening for neil young. he is a genius. it was very informative eight weeks. that was our first tour. charlie: he is a good friend of mine. >> we wouldn't have the career we did unless elliott roberts came to see us in vancouver and he said you can sign with a major label but doesn't happen here that might be it. you are great songwriters but you need time to develop. he also said you are 20 years old. what you know about love? you need to live and experience things. rose: some he said you shouldn't write a novel like war until you have experienced life and sadness and relationships and tragedy. mean is like what you

don't know about life? so we chose this path. signing with an indie label. , theng with neil young was way that we have built our touring organization that our management and infrastructure of our career. we get that all based on what we saw neil young doing. the way we perceive his tour of the dynamics between, he had his family out on tour. it really appeals us. we said if we can build something even a fraction of what he has that will be the way to do it. charlie: you have close relationship with your fans. part of the social media department's other things. >> we grew up listening to bruce springsteen. one of our favorite records was his live album. he can tell the stories.

we started playing music we had maybe eight or 10 songs and we had to fill two hours so we would talk and tell stories. there was pressure on us to entertain. we understood very quickly that we had taken this slower path. we chosen the path of development. we had to create a relationship with our audience. maybe our audience was small, only 50 people. we need to make sure those 50 people came back. >> it may just feel a bit less lonely. during those years where people have college or suddenly this freedom from the parents and they are surrounded by people like them. alone. we're taking the greyhound bus and playing shows late at night. it was like our college years. we were trying to connect to these people. we want them to be our friends.

>> it was quite genuine. older aseloped and got women, a lot of the lgbt people being reflected back to us in our audience. we hear these incredible stories about how we make them feel better about who they were. more comfortable about coming out. sarah became very protective of our audience. these people are very special in this community. we need to make sure we keep this very safe. we can't lose that connection. in every conversation about everything we do our audience is number one. charlie: what percentage of your audience comes from lgbt community? >> is too dark i can't see them. with radio play and bigger tv stuff that we have had over the last five or 10 years, we've

seen the audience diversify. we love seeing all different types of people. she is right. there's something we cherish about the kids came from the community. we pay a lot of attention to them. we are looking at night tonight. we were just in london. thinking, there are a lot of dudes in that audience. even older white men. . guys. there was a guy with a big beard centering centerstage in london. at first it was a lot of people who look like us. they talk about what you learned from springsteen. have a conversation with the audience. >> is an opportunity to share about our lives.

for our audience it is a chance to get to know us of the better. this all started before social media. we are presenting one image. sarah and i are very much about ofating a 360 degree view who we are. i want people to understand that we have put everything into the music. i got up on stage to get rich and famous. i'm up on stage because i feel i have something to say. i feel an intense purpose about it. i feel passionate about music. i also feel passionate about traveling the world and understanding people. this is a family band. i don't want to get up on stage and say what's up? some people do that. some people cannot talk on stage. just don't say anything.

we are not hurting for something say. duringes she gets going the show and i say, you understand we have to play songs tonight. charlie: is one of you more politically active than the other? >> we are both very quickly active. very sensitive to making sure that we write songs that are not necessarily political. without being too judgmental, we also see it as we feel compelled to talk about the things that are important to us. we see going on in the world. .t is more than just tweeting we belong to a community that is active. we try to help people. try to raise awareness about certain things. that gives us a lot of purpose. it makes us feel really good.

we are not politicians. charlie: how many hits has boyfriend received? >> boyfriend is an interesting song. it is done very well for us on streaming. millions and millions. it just hit the top 10 in canada. on radio. streaming is very different because it is hard to figure out is that someone listen to the song 400 times or is it actually 11 million people. it is so confusing. mother pressing play over and over. ? this is the first album where we are trying to figure out what it

really means. how many people are really listening to this thing based on streaming. we don't know. charlie: i suspect a lot. >> we are very into social media. media was a social really blooming. we couldn't get press or tv. or radio. ofial media was the way making our tv shows. we had interview shows. we were always create content for our audience. we wanted people to cs and the only way we know how to do that was to make her own content. love social media. charlie: talk about that girl. about saying oh no i am that girl. was making myself out to be

the victim in relationships even though i was the one in control. i try to mind other relationships for content not thinking about those people's feelings. i felt like a bad guy. my life is very complicated. i don't feel it anymore. i need to make rome i'm not controlling anymore. i was was the needy when he tried to get attention. charlie: faint of heart. >> i hope that people here that a hear the voice of saying no matter who you love you don't need to validated for anyone else. boyfriend is just a pop song about trying to get someone to nail it down. it is my beyonce, put a ring on it. we are in an exclusive relationship. that is all that song is about.

charlie: dying to know. that is one of our very first true collaborations. it is about getting broken up with and having a broken heart. it is also about social media. ex andok at your their pictures. white knuckles is about my relationship with her. tegan. the time when i was in my early 20's i decided to move to montreal to i might as well have been moving to iceland. it seemed very far. said i have decided that i really wanted to move to montreal. i didn't want to break up the band but i knew if i can find

some independence if i didn't find my own life my own stride i wasn't going to be in the band. old. years therapylike couples where you look your partner and say not true. it was very good for us. hang onto the night is about anxiety. worrying about the world. my midlife crisis on. i feel like i'm always having a crisis. i'm 35. this is the lighting in here? am i aging? the album is brand-new. we think is regular. it is very good.

>> is the most critically acclaimed record of our career. we've gotten some bad reviews in the past. everything has been so positive recently. because on the charlie rose show. charlie: thank you very much for being here. much success with this. love you to death. thank you for joining us. see you next time. ♪ ♪ ♪

the u.k. won't turn its back on europe. trump terms on china, accusing it of stealing american jobs. e threatens to tear up the tpp deal. welcome to daybreak asia.