>> from our studios in new york city, this is "charlie rose." charlie: we continue this evening with our coverage of britain's exit from the european union. leaders converged in brussels. david cameron told the press he will not be turning his back on europe. cameron: i want to process to be as constructive as possible. while we are leaving the european union, we mustn't be

turning our backs on europe every these are4 on -- on europe. i hope we will seek the closest relationship and trade and security. charlie: eu leaders said britain accessever expect full to the common market. in a statement to german park parliament, on lamichael said there must be a noticeable difference between whether a country wants to be a member of the union or not. internal turmoil persists in britain. the leader of the labour party lost a vote of no-confidence but has refused to step down.

in the financial market, a slight come back might be under way. london, therom editor of the economist. gerard baker. and the former editor of the new yorker. i am pleased to have all of them on this program. i go to you for what is happening as we speak. you gave a pretty good summary. the big news was with the labor party, they dramatically lost a vote of no-confidence. the prime minister. now we have the leader of the opposition, weekend. brussels is probably the most serious place in europe. nd atve theater in london a

the european parliament. in brussels, it was pretty serious. went to his last eu council meeting. there were probably serious words spoken. charlie: are they going to have another meeting in which he isn't invited? >> the remaining 27 are going to have a meeting without him. david cameron was there today. he will not be there tomorrow. charlie: tina brown is here. you spent a lot of time in this place. mps: telling the european that they have never done a day of work in their life was a wonderful piece of rat poison elegans. talk about an idiot. to say such a thing was so rude. i think it is -- ofrlie: usually the kind

opinion you reserve for boris. tina: what i resent about boris johnson, he led britain over a cliff and i think he was unserious in the pursuit of it. i do not believe boris was a serious brexiter. it was a gesture of politics. it is the same thing as some of these republican candidate same things like they want to abolish the irs. they know that is not going to happen. in boris's case, it was not in his plan to win. has no plan. he didn't really expect to do it or it he thought it was going to further his position with the right of his party and give him credit with the right. when election eventually came around, he would be the leader of the tory party. it was not in his plans to win and now he literally, he has

wrecked the car and now he has to drive it. charlie: he will be prime minister? tina: i think it is highly likely. she does not have his communication skills. boris is the great campaigner. ofspeaking on behalf of all my countrymen, this is not a moment when we have lived up to the reputation of having a stiff upper lip. a nation of that letters and 10 acres. britain'st written -- finest hour. thes important to remember british have long been deeply skeptical of european union. they joined the communities in

1973 to regret if i'd get in 1975. what they joined was a loose association of states trying to improve economic cooperation. abolishing trade barriers. we thought that was good. we didn't want to give up, the british people did not want to give up their sovereignty. steadily, over the last 45 years, there have been a series of movements, ratified by treaties, always controversial. in erosion of their sovereignty. >> absolutely. britain has opted out of some of these things. the euro. these have eroded sovereignty could read the british people who were skeptical at the start, they never want to be part of a european superstate. objective, ever

closer union. we have seen with the problems tighter union is essential. britain has never wanted to be a part of the spirit it is easy to portray this as boris johnson behaving in an opportunistic way british have the been reluctant members of the eu. will beak, i expect it messy, but it may be the best thing. we will establish a relationship between britain and the rest of moreu that will be sustainable. britain, let's be clear, this is one of the other myths put apart it people.i-brex people all for a better yesterday -- wanting to go back

to a better yesterday. they want to secure a trade deal with the u.s., former commonwealth countries. and they want the relationship with the european union. maurice johnson, as he points out, there has -- he comes from a lot of time in europe. there is an element in british life where there is a nasty racist xenophobic element. that was not the animating principle. i think it was tremendous anxiety. it is sort of a metaphor for the overall angst from globalization and digital disruption. people feel left behind, left out. it is the same anger we feel with the trump voter. charlie: the quality and the sources of the anger. tina: the sense that life is

leaving everybody behind and there is nothing to replace it. those who say manufacturing is coming back, it is just another lie. backnot going to come because the world is a different place. and the torybor party have been at fault is the real anguish about immigration has been a subject no one is allowed to talk about. or pc nature of media, anyone who even tries to discuss the issues that have been upsetting people, is immediately branded as a racist. >> i agree. people must understand in the united states as a member of the european union, you sign up to essentially an open border. anyone within the european union can live and work and drop benefits and housing in any other country. ormeans anybody in greece

spain or portugal could move to the united kingdom. there is no control within the european union over borders. there is still enough national sentiment and they believe that national resources should be merrily devoted to the people who live there in britain and places, to say we cannot allow the system. questions.o the economic fall out. seen the worst of it? is the worst yet two,? come?the worst yet to second, will this set off a whole series of people want to leave the european union and a stronger sense of nationalism? >> can i point out, while i h a lot of what they

say, i think they make incomplete arguments. the argument that most people have been skeptical of the eu is not true. characterized the view of an element within the tory party to read the reason we had this referendum is because david cameron thought it would quiet in argument within his party. most people didn't give two hoots. over time, because tory politicians were blaming , it becameon the eu. a scapegoat to as tina said, there are many people who feel left behind. much a this is just a vote against austerity as globalization. many people have suffered from the shrinking state. they are concerned about not having control of the immigrants.

for some, it is a xenophobia. for most, they believe they won't get a doctors appointment or schools are too big. been anti-eun has for decades isn't right. t theat the whole -- no whole. 40% of voters voted to leave the eu -- labor voters. >> i think austerity saying remaining is the last thing they want. they haven't liked the predicament. >> it was very clear what people were voting for. it is true, britain has been skeptical. that is why we did not join t he euro. at all clear what people are voting for. they voted against the eu

because it was equivalent to the status quo. they were promised things they couldn't have. some were voting to stop immigration. some were voting for a singapore on the temps. -- thames. e wereere voting -- som voting to get back to the 1950's. ♪

in opinion poll asked people

what was the most important issue. 53% said sovereignty. the >> i think it has become a buzzword. >> you have such a patronizing view of the public. why bother to vote? >> the most searched term the next day is, what is the eu? facts that many a brexiter said they were regretful. they said, we didn't realize this would happen. they were promised this money to going to go from the eu national healthcare. >> do think people should have been given a test? ask the mayhem, the lies, the craziness of the media, nobody knew what to believe. >> the political establishment

was in favor of remaining. the city of london, the most powerful establishment, was in favor of remaining. president obama came to the united kingdom. charlie: they made a negative -- >> there is no public enthusiasm, you couldn't have gone to the british people and said, you want to be part of this great european project? there is no public support for that. voted,y demographic overwhelming maybe old voting for brexit. >> the cut off age is probably about 45. to get to your question about with the economic effects would he. settle this in terms of why they voted? you can find people that

voted for the reasons geri did. the reasons tina did. you can find lots of people. this was a vote against the establishment, angry about that. we have had enough of experts. , from theishment british people. >> yes, it was. you can't separate that from the sentiment. polls have shown this for 25 years. confined to a wing of the conservative party. the leadership is out of touch with voters. labor leaders are skeptical. not hostile but skeptical. they have been skeptical about the whole project. there are aspects and that is

why we did not join the eruo. britain has a different relationship with the european union. people wereean what voting for now was not powered by different arguments about why they didn't like the status quo. share ofhink a large the british public has been festering in the main thing they are concerned is anti-europe. the economic fallout, the beginning of a strong surge of nationalism and right wing come up for a lack of a better word, politics. >> me do the second one first. we are already seeing a surge of populism of different flavors. we are seeing it on your side of

the atlantic with donald trump read we have seen it in austria and poland. it is a big victory for the brigade. the angry event.the import of this what happens in terms of economic events? in the short term, there's clear uncertainty. we don't know what the final arrangement will look like. uncertainty by itself hurts the economy. in the long-term, how much the damage is depends on the kind of relationship. there is a simple trade-off. as was laid out by anglo merkel. euwant to pay money to the budget and allow the principal of the free movement of labor. if we want to put up barriers and have a different migration

system, we are not going to have full access to the single market and the economy is going to be worse off. in the end place of compromises. i'm not attaching a high probability but it seems to me prospect we will end up with an arrangement close to what we have now and we do not exit. otherwise we have an arrangement that is close. is right.ink she i don't see the motivation europe has to get everything we want -- give us everything we want. charlie: the people in the eu are saying they give a lot to david cameron. >> there is no motivation to give it to them. they: i don't dispute it is a trade-off

between sovereignty and economic integration. we will see. one thing we have seen in the is the people didn't really have a plan. that is reprehensible. there is a negotiation -- will be a negotiation. there will be a desire to find an accommodation with the u.k.. you were hinting that, they cannot give too much to britain because there are the separatist tendencies in lots of eu countries. they cannot be seen rewarding britain for leaving. there are duties and privileges. if you don't want the duties, you don't get the privileges. interest toody's have the u.k. leave the european union.

have a relationship determined by the pto rules -- by wto rules. that would be best for german manufacturing and the british economy. find will be a desire to some accommodation which will be access to the single market in exchange for obligations. short of the burdens of membership. >> the great tragedy is with david cameron's resignation, there will be chaos. the idea of an orderly path is this much. charlie: he will go through october or november. gerry: there will be a new conservative leader by september 9. be one time when going slowly is not so bad. i agree that uncertainty is bad

so you want to have clarity. on the other hand, the europeans cannot do anything until britain triggers article 50. if we take our time thinking about it, i think frankly once we have a new leader of the parties, we are going to have laying out of what the two parties see as the future of europe. will have to be another general election. this has to have some sort of mandate. you can't have a referendum which was won without any clarity about what comes next. when might that take place? >> your guess is as good as mine. i think we will have a new tory leader by the beginning of september. a new labor leader. expect a general election sooner rather than later. gerry: timewise, prime minister

by early september. he could call a general election. that is tight. what would he really be campaigning on? that prime minister will only have just taken office. there will be a new prime minister. we will not know if it is a she or he come a lot kind of deal they will want from your worried i would think a relatively early general election. want, itknow what they will be difficult. who is going to be the new leader of the labour party? zanny: who knows. if you'd asked me friday morning, would we be talking nott a new leader, i didn't

think it would be this far. i don't know. was: the tragedy is that he a lukewarm campaigner. gerry: i don't think the labour party will survive this as a single party. blithely say, who is going to replace him question mark he has been voted a massive vote of no-confidence. they love him and they are furious. you've got a more divided party than the conservatives. surly all the members are. you are right. anemy corbin is in extraordinary position. he is despised by his mps. he is viewed skeptically by labor voters. loved by the conservative party. britain has had a real

influence within the european union. fair to say? >> waning in the last few years. charlie: what will be the future role for envelope merkel? -- angela merkel? not there,rits are she loses of free market ally. the other big power becomes friends and france is more protectionist and statist. it feels her right-wing element. gerry: she has an election in a year. welcome refugees was a political refugee. -- disaster. you could call it courage. you could say, was it wise we would just allow one million

people to come and settle in this country? in signaling that, also signaling, come on in, everybody else. they are trying to backtrack out of it. she's got her own problems. i agree with zanny. the last thing the germans want is to go back to fungal german nco-german running the european union. >> it is ugly across the board. the rash statements. the chaos. nothing good is going to come out of this. it is good to say in a year or two we will get everything we want but right now europe is in turmoil. if you are a terrorist, if you are happy as a clam at the state of the turmoil. charlie: cut his putin take

advantage -- how does putin take advantage of this? the german for mr. was saying, we are being too hard on the russian. we have to be careful we don't assume the turmoil is somehow because there are elements that are not prepared to take a firm line against russia. something bad is being planned. >charlie: like syria, like ukraine. >> before we do send into a fest of gloom, -- charlie: there is a glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel? have talked on your program about how the year ends

have a fantastic capacity to kick the can down the road. angela merkel is the master of this. there is even a verb in german. isseems that the eu brilliant at that. we face something that nobody in the eu wants. no one has a clue about how to get out of this. with thents to deal consequences. it seems to me we have a classically european situation. happensquite see how it , in large part because the domestic politics. i wonder if we end up with something less cataclysmic? we had the vote to leave and chaos in british politics. in the end, they kick the can and come up with compromise. gerry: that has worked out well

with them. by the way, the other person who is notorious or billion insula braided for kicking the can down the road is david cameron. >> he was very different. >> muddling through is the motto orisorace johnson -- b johnson. todesired zanny cling to the wreckage of the european union, i think it will be hard. 17 when 5 million british people voted to leave. that is the largest number of votes cast in british history or any position. the idea that you can just turn around and they, that wasn't right. is not what i'm suggesting to read pointing out

that if you look at the history of the european union, we have from countries that have changed their minds. different in scale and import. i'm saying the story of the european union is one way you walk to the edge of the precipice and you then kick the can. i'm mixing metaphors. you end up with compromise solutions. 's bat atean union reforming but is good at keeping the show on the road. tina: the ridges that voted for the brexit matches those areas that had mad cow disease. regions,st of the every region was 60-40. it is not quite such a yellow and blue map. charlie: is the idea of europe dead? i'm not quite sure with

the idea actually means. the idea that you can create what they claim to be, and ever closer union. a single entity to which people feel a strong sense of belonging it think that was always -- was never going to work. we are exposing the flaws in that. what you are doing to force force, by trying to people into this single unit, you are creating more and more attention. it will end badly. i want to say we keep on thisg everyone felt dislike for europe. there are many people, many younger people, who have that or multicultural upbringing. they were at school with 30 different nationalities. they love it. they love the freedom of movement. any like being part of

international world. it is also a digital world. you can can indicate with everyone. gerry: that was never the argument made to remain. it was, don't do this because you are going to be falling off a cliff. charlie: thank you for joining us. back in a moment. ♪

thisie: we continue on

side of the atlantic. the house select committee on benghazi offered its final report. it offered the details about september 11, 2012 when four americans were killed in benghazi, libya. conduct of the department of defense and state department. it found no new evidence of wrongdoing by hillary clinton. thecrats criticized committee which persisted for more than two years and cost an $7 million. also today, donald trump gave a speech on global trade. he praised the british referendum decision to leave the eu and decried globalization, saying it has wiped out the middle class. mr. trump: factory workers have seen the jobs they love shift

thousands and thousands of miles away. many pennsylvania towns once thriving and humming are now in total disrepair. this wave of globalization has wiped out totally, totally, are middle-class -- our middle-class. we can turn it around and turn it around fast. charlie: yesterday, trump hired a veteran clinicals -- political strategist. indicating a move towards a more traditional campaign structure. joining me is an opinion columnist at the washington post. and from washington, bob costa. national political reporter for the post. tell me about the speech today.

bob: just a few days after secretary clinton went to cincinnati, you see trump going to the rust belt. blue-collar workers. trying to rouse those workers who this campaign believes are at the heart of his campaign. ight'strying to r message. he is coming back to what he ran on a year ago. trade. economic populism. trying to set the table before the convention. charlie: and immigration? bob: not so much at the center. he is more comfortable talking about trade. when you see trump trying to navigate a general election audience, he still wants to build his wall but when it comes to barring all muslims, he has used different language to talk about maybe blocking people just from terrorist countries.

e the broader theme of the economy and trade. charlie: trump talking about the trade, less about the muslim ban? more about appeals to reagan democrats? >> pretty extraordinary speech by any measure, and shows the race we are in and how things have changed with him as a candidate. we have a republican candidate who publicly called today for scrapping nafta, withdrawing from tpp. labeling china as a currency manipulator. the message was anti-globalization, something president obama and business leaders and the chamber of commerce has been actively pushing. charlie: those interest groups

you just poke to, the chamber of commerce -- traditionally aligned behind the republican candidate. it shows how difficult these waters are for republican donors, business leaders, to unify behind someone whose core anathemas actually an to the republican party. >> it is up ending a republican orthodoxy. if you are a republican voter, i don't know what you are thinking. it is a complete reversal of what the republican party and donors have stood for for decades. this idea of appearing more presidential, has not gained a stronger foothold to ? bob: we see the campaign for professionalized.

the addition of jason miller is an important one. a twentysomething spokeswoman has been the main way of communicative. aw they are building messaging operation. miller is important because he is a link to the movement right. that is a group ahead of the convention that remains in many quarters resistant to trump. trump himself, if you look at his comments, this is a man who was populist. who isextemporaneous, not on a script. even when he is on a script, he adds commentary. thelie: what do you make of two ladies in blue? hillary clinton, seeming to have

fun with the senator from massachusetts. >> if you had asked those people whether elizabeth warren would be the vp pick, whether she was a serious contender, people would have said not so much. that hearing is high risk. pairing is high risk. that she perhaps alienates middle of the road voters hillary clinton will need. of the, seeing them come body language, the language from the campaign has changed. that seems to be more closely. there is no question, there was an excitement and dynamism. charlie: it is now a possibility, more likely than before although they are not anywhere close to a decision. catherine: i would add elizabeth warren has been an effective attack dog. which is important in this campaign.

to the extent that donald trump got where he was because his opponents were pulling their punches or not attacking him effectively. getting him to say things that were more vulnerable. it is hard to undervalue that in the vp pick. charlie: i was thinking this morning, can you imagine the vice presidential debate if the attack dog is governor christie and senator warren? that would be a debate. megan: that would be a fierce matchup. both of them are grappling with this issue. do i want an attack dog or someone who removes the stain of my unfavorables. --eone with an and the right demographics. with elizabeth warren, you get

massachusetts which was not really in doubt for the sake of the general. with chris christie, it seems very unlikely he is going to pull over new jersey voters. there is a reason why historically, at least in recent elections, the presidential candidates have gone for people from swing states. you are pulling in more of those voters. charlie: barack obama and joe biden went for balance. there are other forms of balance. it was more about finding that balance rather than finding that more aggressive sort of attack dog. charlie: what do you think of a war and clinton romance? bob: it is a powerful moment to witness. the question over secretary campaign, she has traits she wants to see in a running mate. someone from a region, a different generation. i spent nine days on the trail with senator sanders. there is something happening in the american left and inside the

democratic party. there are ideological winds blowing for of this process. you see sanders, reluctant to endorse. ren, she may be nodding s, buts those wind that's a lot of activism wants to see something, they want to see a real progressive on the ticket. charlie: who would it be other than war and -- awarren? sharon brown is a name i hear. tom perez. charlie: labor and latino. >> drawing that parallel with the u.k., jeremy korman who has

been voted down. you see rallies in support of him. ignoring that dynamism on the u.s.in both the uk and charlie: he had the labor rank and file and his favor. the trump selection process? somebody said there was a split between trump and family, there was the question as to when they would announce the vice presidential pick. should i read anything into that about they have narrowed to the choice down and selected their running mate? finalrump has not made a decision but it is a short list. the campaign manager was in essence running many parts of

the vice presidential vetting can read now he is gone, the ,ampaign chairman and lobbyist he is running the process. he is very preferential toward a senator. someone who can help trump navigate washington. names i hear are rob portman from ohio. senator richard burr of north carolina. senator corker of tennessee. as a potential pick, jeff sessions of alabama. he wouldn't necessarily expand trump's appeal but is a sitting senator from alabama. charlie: is portman up for reelection? he is and so was richard burr. the campaign sees those rust as keydustrial areas areas where trump needs to do well. that he is it automatic has the support and

encouragement and relationships and dialogue with republican establishmen that will get them on board? can he keep him on script? we were discussing the speech today. cut so manys tenants, in his cadence and some of the lines he returned to about making america wealthy again, those are things he can stay on message and stay away from drifting on immigration and mess deportation and personal attacks, although that has been a core part of his campaign and successful. what people want to see with the the abilityt -- is to turn people out on the days with the message. i thinke: any money -- it is just not the content but the virtuous miss.

somebody said, i think it is good if he sticks to the script. when he goes off message, that is more dangerous. a nice cheer from d but turns off voters. charlie: does it matter that george will is leaving the party, secretary kissinger is supporting secretary clinton,? and other republicans are lean that way? secretary clinton and other republicans are leaning that way? bob: trump supporters would argue he is extending the party. if you are not keeping those conservative rank and file, the movement players who thought they were with goldwater and reagan and helped build the

modern republican party, if trump ignores them. trump is ignoring the george s of the world. he is not really caring may leave. if they don't show up, you have a potential outcome in november. is thing does he. $7 million, all these hearings. doing, the state department certain kinds of things. there was not a sufficient reaction. what impact does it have? sure that i am not the latest in an unending series of investigations is going to make that big of a difference. they see it has value to their base. potentially to voters who are on the fence, turned off by trop. -- trump. it doesn't seem like it is going

to bring any new facts to light. it is more about maintaining the hiff of scandal. charlie: she tried to address trust, she said she is going to figure out how to respond with it. is verye: trust intertwined with authenticity. she has had struggles with authenticity since the beginning. it is not really clear how one regains it at this point, given that there is such a wide and well-heeled apparatus intended to destroy the trust. charlie: what is his pathway to victory? his pathway to victory is to be changed. he has so many problems on paper. voters are concerned about his will garrity, his racial undertones. they are concerned about his

policies. but he is not clinton and not of lyrical insider. if he can rouse those working-class voters who are disgusted with political elites and aren't even happy with trump himself but one total change, then he can maybe have a narrow path to victory in some of these rust belt states. charlie: dr. lana? bob: north carolina. your state. charlie: what is her pathway? >> similar to president obama's. holding on the coalition he built. donald trump is going to find it very difficult when you are taking 20% or less of the latino vote and 10% or less of the black vote. there's just not a pathway forward unless he takes such a huge share of the white vote to read they have been effective at targeting groups, not just minority groups but communities.

all gb team to read the community that have been allies. reinforcing their message. women. doubling down on that. they know exactly what donald trump has said about planned parenthood or waffling on abortion. she is going to expand that coalition. she has the demographics. catherine: i would add her pathway is being not trump. her unfavorables happen to be quite high but his are even higher. so many voters find him unfavorable. to be fair, there are a lot of voters on the other side motivated iv not hillary aspect of trump. but for her, it is a motivating factor. i went to a rally in raleigh. economiclled as an

policy speech. this is where she talked about her tax plan, her college affordability land. ulcerative things relating to worker protections. -- all sorts of things relating to her worker protections. when i asked people, what do you like best about her? the response was, she is not trump. it is not some aspect of her message. charlie: does that mean this is a campaign of personalities, not issues? bob: that is the wildcard. what makes him difficult as a george mcgovern or barry goldwater is trump doesn't really come from the right. he is per trade as someone like far right leaders. but he is a celebrity, nationalistic candidate. he is not running on a platform of conservative policies. he is a reaction to certain thanks in the -- angsts in the

country. it is a campaign hard to addict because it is not right versus left korean charley: thank you. thank you for joining us. we will see you next time. ♪ ♪

mark: on the show tonight, convention plots and speaking slots, 19 days ago until republicans convene in cleveland. first, the world still reacting to the attack in turkey yesterday. the total number of people who have been killed is now 41 according to authorities. more than 200 injured, by three suicide bombers, who turkish officials say have ties to islamic state. a hillary clinton and donald trump have each weighed in in the past day. let's review what they have said. will need