announcer: from our studios in new york city, this is "charlie rose." al: bernie sanders, the socialist turned democrat, senator from vermont, stunned the political world this year by running a very competitive race with hillary clinton for the democratic nomination. he received more than 12 million votes in the primaries and the caucuses. she got 3.7 million more and will be officially nominated in philadelphia in less than three weeks. big questions remain for the challenger. will he endorse clinton, how enthusiastically, and what are

the big elements of the democratic platform and any rule changes, and how or whether his candidacy has changed the party. we are pleased to welcome you with us. let's start with the question everyone is asking. when are you going to endorse hillary? sen. sanders: our campaigns are working together. from day one, i said that i would endorse the winner of the democratic primary. i had hoped it would be. it appears it will not be, and that endorsement -- al: there are reports it could come as early as next tuesday in new hampshire -- sen. sanders: we are working together to see how we can be most effective in terms of coming together on issues and running the kind of campaign that needs to be run to make sure that donald trump does not become president. al: are there any other questions that have to be resolved on the platform -- sen. sanders: we are working together. at the end of the day, we will be united and do everything we can to make sure that donald trump does not become president.

al: will you endorse her before the primary begins? sen. sanders: right now, we are working to make sure we can be most effective and making sure that somebody who would be a disaster for this country, mr. donald trump, does not become president. al: can i get it out of you? before the republican primary? sen. sanders: that is not the important issue. what's important is how we address the issues that we face and how we go on to transform. al: a number of your supporters are talking about voting for third-party candidates. jill stein, the green party. or even gary johnson, the libertarian. what will you say to them? sen. sanders: i will say to them that this country faces enormous crises. i don't honestly know how we would survive four years of a donald trump. how we would survive a person trying to divide us up. who is running his campaign on

bigotry. who doesn't recognize the reality of climate change. who wants to give hundreds of billions of dollars in tax breaks to the top 0.2% of the top 1%. who every single day seems to be insulting a new group whether it is women, muslims, or african-americans. in the world we are living in today, i don't know how we go four years with someone like donald trump. you're talking to someone who is the longest-serving independent in the history of the united states congress. i understand where people are coming from. my own view now is, we have to do everything that we can to defeat donald trump and elect hillary clinton. al: let's talk about some of the issues. you were pleased with her college affordability plan. she moved closer to your position on that. what are some of the other things you would like to see her move on? sen. sanders: it is not a question of her moving. it is a question of the democratic party and secretary

clinton addressing the major crises that we face. al: what are some of the other crises? sen. sanders: one of the issues that we have to talk about as a nation is to focus on the real issues. what are the real issues? for 40 years, the middle class of this country has been disappearing. how will we address that? we have grotesque levels of wealth and income inequality. do you think it is appropriate that the top 0.1% are wealthier than the bottom 90%? this is the most progressive platform in the history of the democratic party. al: what else has to be in the platform? sen. sanders: what has to be in the platform now -- we have made real progress. i want to see very specific language about raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour. i believe that in this country people who work 40 hours per week could should not be working

-- living in poverty. al: they call for it now. sen. sanders: it needs to be clearer. we need to make sure that the tpp, the transpacific partnership, which is, in my view, a continuation of disastrous trade policies in the past, which have cost us millions of decent paying jobs, and led to a race to the bottom, i think we should be very clear in saying that should not come up in the lame duck session. al: that would be a direct slap at barack obama who is the most popular figure and most popular democrat in the party right now. i know that you are opposed to it, being opposed to it is not a slap, but saying mr. president, you cannot bring that up in a lame duck. sen. sanders: i had the impression that we lived in a democratic society. i am a great fan of barack obama. i respect him.

i like him. he is not right all of the time. i am not right all of the time. you are not right all the time. what democracy is about is the willingness to -- al: do you think that hillary clinton will agree to put a plank in that says, no ttp in -- no tpp in the lame duck? sen. sanders: why we are in -- when we ask ourselves why the middle class is in decline, why -- almost new income all new income is going to the top 1%, it is for a lot of reasons. one of them is trade agreements that have forced american workers to compete against the -- to compete against people around the world who work for pennies on the dollar. when people are angry -- you have an investor state dispute system which says that companies like transcanada, who were pushing the keystone pipeline, which was appropriately rejected -- they can go to a third-party,

tribunal, and ask for billions of dollars from the united states government. you are lessening democracy as a result. al: in the draft so far, a ban on fracking and a call for a carbon tax, do you expect them? sen. sanders: we will fight for them. i will tell you why. al: what are the odds? sen. sanders: asking the odds is a media question. ask me about, should we have them? the answer is i happen to , believe that climate change is an extraordinary crisis facing this planet. i believe that if we continue to allow the fossil fuel industry to go their merry way, the planet that your grandchildren inherit may not be particularly habitable. we need to move aggressively in every way that we can. we need a tax on carbon, we need to end fracking today. al: i'm not trying to give you a

trick question or a media question. i'm trying to find out, how important are those provisions for you to be an enthusiastic campaigner? sen. sanders: they are important for my grandchildren and your grandchildren and billions on this planet. donald trump happens to believe that climate change is a hoax. i think that donald trump is out of his mind, because the entire scientific community believes that it is real and they have told us that they have underestimated the crisis that we face. i'm going to try to be as aggressive as i can on this issue, not to be political, not to embarrass anybody, but to make it clear that the united states is going to lead the world and china, russia, india have to follow us. al: one of your centerpieces was campaign-finance reform. the rigged system, as you called it. sen. sanders: as i called it? it's a fact. al: yes.

hillary clinton says, yes, she agrees. i remember that bill clinton said that in 1993 and 1992 and nothing happened. barack obama said it in 1998 -- into thousand eight and nothing happened. presidents seem to give lip service to that. sen. sanders: i don't think that is quite fair. al: i'm not saying they are changing positions. sen. sanders: we cannot cast equal blame. you've got the republican party whose leader is mitch mcconnell. you know what he thinks? mitch thinks that citizens united did not go far enough. mitch thinks that we should allow the koch brothers and billionaires to liberally employ candidates. if you want to run, the koch brothers would give you directly at check for a few hundred million dollars. that is mcconnell's view. that is not the president's view. it is not hillary clinton's view. on this one, all of the blame rests with republicans who loved the idea that the koch brothers and other billionaires can finance their campaigns.

in my view, we have to overturn the disastrous citizens united and reform the public funding of elections. let me be very clear, this country is moving toward an oligarchic form of society. we have a handful of billionaire families controlling the economics and political actions. in terms of the united states senate, the koch brothers are pouring tens of millions of dollars trying to gain control of the u.s. senate. is that appropriate? i think not. al: much of what we are talking about is what goes in the party platform. barney frank, a former member of congress, said the other day that platforms are the miss congeniality of beauty contests. they are irrelevant. sen. sanders: i strongly disagree with mr. frank. they become the blueprint for the future. i'm not saying that tomorrow every plank in the platform is converted to legislation, but it is the basis on which the party stands. the other thing i will fight for is to make the platform a more relevant document and demand

that the party moved forward based on what is in the platform. al: not just a platform, but saying this is a mandate for the congress. you are also talking about issues, rule changes you would independents allowed to vote in all the primaries. from your conversation, do you think that will happen? sen. sanders: there are differences of opinion, but i think we can win this one. if you go to a state like new york state, 3 million people in new york who declared themselves as independents could not participate in the democratic or republican primary. could not play a role in selecting who the candidate would be to run for president. would be. -- would be to run for president. i think that is stupid. al: how about the idea of ending caucuses? you did well in caucuses. sen. sanders: we should take a look at caucuses. what i like about caucuses is that it demands more of people.

i believe in democracy. i want to see people yelling, screaming, and arguing about the important issues. i want to see the media focusing on the real issues rather than personality and conflict. i like that people have to spend a couple hours in a caucus and argue with their neighbors. what a recognize is, if the caucus is at 7:00 p.m., you may be working, you are on the night shift, you cannot come out. a reasonable compromise is what you call a firehouse caucus. you come in any time during the day, but if you want to stay for a more prolonged debate, you can do that as well. al: if you do that and a lot of -- and allowed independents to 2020,n the primaries in you would be pleased? sen. sanders: yes. al: let me ask you this.

did hillary clinton win this nomination fair and square? sen. sanders: let me answer it this way. we knew what the rules were when we went in. we knew that in new york the 3 million independents were not allowed to vote. that there were many closed primaries along the way. i think the rules in many cases are absurd, but we knew what we were getting into. of course. al: in that sense, she won fair and square? what you're saying, if there had been different rules, who knows what the outcome would be? sen. sanders: yes. al: if the james comey report on her use of a private e-mail server had come out two months earlier, might that have changed the outcome? sen. sanders: i have no idea. i have to get back to the reasons that i ran. what media does is spend a lot of time talking about hillary clinton or donald trump, for that matter, or bernie sanders. you know what the american people want? this is the lesson i learned. the american people want to know why their jobs went to china. they want to know why the koch brothers can spend tens of billions of dollars in a so-called democratic society to elect the senate. they want to know about the

morality of so few having so much and us having the highest rate of childhood poverty. what i find myself, in terms of the media, having to keep talking about the issues and not get involved with hillary or donald trump. if you do that, which candidate is better able to respond to those crises? i think hillary clinton is clearly. al: the american people also care about trust. they surely care about the issues. this seems to go to the issue of trust. paul ryan said yesterday that hillary clinton should not be able to get security briefings. sen. sanders: i'm shocked that paul would really say that. let me make a wild guess that tomorrow the republicans will say everything else, and they will try to make this the major issue of the candidacy. let me make another guess that the media will not talk about the agenda of the republican party to get huge tax breaks for billionaires, they reject the science of climate change, they

want to cut social security and medicare. is that a good guess? al: you are a good guesser on these things. you are saying it is not a relevant issue? sen. sanders: no, i did not say it was not a relevant issue. it is a relevant issue. donald trump's business background is a relevant issue. i do not mean to suggest that these are not serious issues, but more serious is the disappearance of the middle class. i have been around the country. i have gone to native american reservations with a life expectancy is a third world country. i have been in areas where when people turn on the drinking water, the water cannot be consumed because it is full of pesticides. i have seen people working incredibly long hours and not making enough to take care of families. kids whose dreams were to go to college not being able to go to college. seniors trying to live on $10,000 social security -- how

often do we talk about that? al: some. sen. sanders: 1% of hillary's emails? al: you say it is a serious issue, but you don't agree with paul ryan. sen. sanders: that is correct. al: let me ask about young voters. for whom you had great appeal. sen. sanders: my youthful charm? [laughter] al: i think that it was. i give all the credit to your wife. sen. sanders: that may be right. al: donald trump says, a lot of the issues that the young people were attracted to bernie, the system is corrupt, the system is rigged, corporations have too much power, trade deals are bad. i am closer to bernie than hillary clinton. sen. sanders: it does not give me pleasure to say this. i have many conservative friends who i like and respect. i have to say that donald trump is a pathological liar.

that is not just me, many republicans will say the same thing. he says things which are blatantly not true. politicians are all known to stretch things a little bit. he lies all of the time. whatever he says, if he tells you it is sunny outside, take a hard look to see if the sun is shining. he does not tell the truth. what he is trying to do, in a very opportunistic way, is trying to win votes that may have come to me. i don't think he will be successful. al: young voters should not listen -- sen. sanders: what young voters want, i think -- by definition, young people are idealistic. they understand that this country can be so much more than it is right now. they are looking out there and worried about i'm a change and

criminal justice, and racism, and sexism. for the first time in the modern history of this country, unless we change it, they will have a lower standard of living than my generation. they are moving in the wrong direction and they don't accept that. they are tired of leaving school $50,000, $60,000 in debt and not being able to get married and have kids. i hope that the young people will fall for donald trump. they reject a strong way bigotry and sexism and racism and homophobia. al: it is clear that you did not come away from this campaign with high regard for the media. sen. sanders: yeah. al: elaborate on why. sen. sanders: it is not a personal thing. i don't think anyone is picking on bernie sanders. it's because even some of the questions we have discussed, this campaign is not about hillary clinton. it is not about donald trump. it is not about bernie sanders.

it is about the american people. you tell me, how much time did we really talk about the decline of the middle class? should we be talking about the morality of so few having so much and so many having so little? do we talk about that at all? do we talk about the pharmaceutical industry making -- top five companies -- making $50 billion in profits last year while charging the american people the highest prices in the world for prescription drugs? is it possible that we don't talk about it because of the ads we see going to the tv industry? am i right? al: i will not speak for the entire industry, but it is not just the ads, you are saying that the broadcast and print outlets -- sen. sanders: they are all one -- all multinational corporations who clearly have a bias. al: as you reflect back on the campaign, it is just ending now, but what are your good thoughts?

do you have for regrets? sen. sanders: a lot of beautiful thoughts. the most beautiful of all is that i am optimistic about the future of this country. i have spoken to so many people. working people. young people who really want to change this country for the best. i have seen in their eyes hope and a willingness to stand up and fight. that has inspired me and will continue to inspire me. politically, what we have got to do is take that energy of those young people who in many instances do not feel welcome into the process to figure out ways they can be involved and help transform this country. al: any regrets? sen. sanders: you think back and you can always have done things differently. we certainly could have. i think it is fair to say we did better than a lot of people thought we would. we ran a great campaign with a great staff. it has been an extraordinary experience. i want to thank so many millions

of people who have been responsive and supportive. the political revolution continues. we're not giving up. al: tough to return to the senate? sen. sanders: yeah. [laughter] that is an understatement. al: we will be back in just a moment. ♪

jeff: the 2016 summer olympics

begin in less than a month in rio de janeiro. the buildup has been marred by a range of concerns including the threat of a zika virus outbreak. top athletes including golfer rory mcilroy have said they will not compete because of the zika virus. joining me now is richard, the senior editor at sports illustrated and has covered seven olympic games. and from rio is jules, a professor at pacific university. i am pleased to have both of them with us. jules, let me start with you. so much to talk about, so much in the news with regard to rio. you are in rio now. what is the mood? what do you make of where the preparations are at? jules: i have lived here since august of 2015 and at that time it was difficult to find anybody excited. i returned this week in the

-- and th eoverall attitude is a collective shrug if not people here. -- if not people being upset the olympics are here. i went to a protest two nights ago where activists and citizens were raising a number of questions. from the amount of money being spent, to false promises. behind me you can see the bay. that was supposed to be cleaned up and it hasn't at all. the sentiment is mixed, but it is hard to find people excited. jeff: from those who live there, what are they most worried about? jules: i think it depends who you talk to. i talked yesterday to some environmental activists and thinkers and the bay really sticks in their side. the bid from 2009 said 80% of the water flowing into the bay would have been treated. that would've been a terrific legacy for the everyday people of rio. some statistics came out this week that said the number is closer to 21% and some important scientific work has found if you ingest three teaspoons of water

from behind me, you have a 99% chance of catching a virus. while there will be windsurfing and sailing in that body of water, the people of rio or -- were hoping it coulbe cleaned up so they can go swimming. that is a major concern and a major disappointment. jeff: water pollution, zika, doping concerns, never mind the political unrest. jules: just the other day, some body parts washed up on copacabana beach. right where volleyball will be held. there are also the police. there will be 85,000 security officials to police the game. that is double the number we saw in london. you might think that is great, we have a lot of security officials to keep the peace, but

the brazilian peacekeeping officials have a rough track record. amnesty international came up with a poll that found one in five homicides in brazil is carried out by security officials. it raises questions for those who live there, who will keep an eye on those keeping an eye on things. jeff: it does strike me, before every one of these games, there are major concerns. how many of these concerns go away when the games start? is that the right way to think about things? richard: it's a good question. the olympic motto should be faster, higher, disaster given what we have heard. my first one was 2002. i remember in the shadow of 9/11 seeing soldiers walking around and people for saying, are the olympics safe? even in sochi, people thought about terrorism and there was so much press heading in. the olympics have this unique thing that once the games start you forget about the surroundings and the outside because the performances are so great.

you see michael phelps in the pool, or the beach volleyball players like carrie jennings. -- like kerri-walsh -- kerri walsh-jennings. the sports supersede was is surrounding. this feels different. to me, having covered six of these, the run-up feels different. it feels like brazil is a mess, both infrastructurally, as well as the economics, and security. maybe they will pull it off, but in my olympic experience, i have not seen a pre-run up that feels as foreboding as rio. jeff: brazil hosted the world cup two years ago. are there any lessons to be taken from that? jules: yes. the people here have taken a lot

of lessons. there were a lot of promises made around the world cup and many have not been followed through. a lot of the promises made about the olympics, people do not give them much credence. what you are pointing to is a larger pattern of olympics in the 21st century. you mentioned athens, you mentioned beijing. there is a pattern. some of the elements are heightened or amplified in rio, but we have seen some of the same dynamics even in london where the cost went to the roof. -- through the roof. that is one of the patterns. it is like etch-a-sketch economics. they say this much at the front and, shake it up, and you get a whole new number, many times higher, on the backside. we saw in london where it was supposed to be $3.8 billion, and it ended up being $18 billion. that's a conservative estimate. same here. costs have gone through the

roof. hospitals are being shuttered. social services are dialing back. lots of people can think for plenty of uses for the money being spent on the games. jeff: which leads to some cities running away from the games. boston was under consideration, because so many people spoke up and there was so much concern, they dropped it. richard: in new york of course, how much of the backlash was from citizens who didn't want the games. what jules said. it struck me -- i was in athens. it was an amazing games. i've seen some of the photos of the facilities now. they are white elephants. they don't exist anymore. thisoc's promise that transforms the city is not the case. i wonder if we are at a point that, if the games -- if you conceive that they are still a and i think they are, athletically -- maybe there should be only a certain number

of cities that host these games and they rotate around those cities because they can handle it infrastructure wise and don't end up crippling the economies. which i think, we sadly, too often, see with this. jeff: jules, is there something to that? jules: there is absolutely something to that. fewer and fewer cities are game worthy. you only need to look at the last bidding when only two cities. neither of the cities are bastions of democracy. any city that was thinking about it, where they let their elected officials or voting members of the public way in, they said no from kraków to munich to switzerland to stockholm. they said thanks but no thanks. we don't want those olympics. smallrotating among a

number of cities is the way forward, but the truth is the international olympic committee is in a slow-motion crisis and they need to figure a way out. jeff: haven't they always been in crisis to one extent or another? richard: inevitably they are a , selfish organization that -ften fix the sites of games - gamespicks the sites of that are not fan friendly, not necessarily city friendly. it gets back to something you brought up before. so often when the event star and that starts -- the event starts and we get nbc-ified, we fall in love with stories, you same bolt -- usain bolt will pull off another double, we forget about this stuff. what's interesting, they are not going to forget about this in the host city. they foot the bill and have to deal with the aftermath. we fall in love for 17 days and then we are not bothered by it again. , after the olympic

games in rio, what does it look like? jules: there's probably going to be a sigh of relief. hopefully people won't get hurt. the athletics are going to be great. there is a lot to look forward to on the athletic front. you will see a collective sigh and then go back to the garden-variety economic crises engulfing the country. the president may be impeached. everyone will turn their attention to the impeachment of the president of brazil. jeff: it's unfortunate when any clinical crises becomes garden-variety. what are you most looking forward to? jules: there's a lot to look forward to. one thing that is interesting is there will be a team of world refugees marching behind the olympic flag. athletes from countries like syria, south sudan, ethiopia will get to participate. they've been training with other countries and that will be cool.

there are 10 athletes. that will help raise the issue of refugees around the world. i approach the games, we don't need to devote ourselves to the death of complexity. we can appreciate the athletes and at the same time we raise these important criticisms about what is happening in rio and with the olympics more generally. one athlete i am excited about is spencer, lawrence halsted. he wrote an interesting piece -- essay for "the guardian" over in the u.k. that made the that we are athletes and we see these things that are happening in host cities. we should speak out together and shouldn't be afraid of that. if we see injustice, as athletes we should stand up against it. i will root for him. you can bet he is catching flak for standing up in that way. jeff: if any country needs

its attention uplifted or diverted right now, it may be britain, both athletically and economically. for you, the biggest athletic event, the phelps' swan song? richard: for americans it will be. ryan lochte as well. missy franklin. gymnastics will as well. we saw gabby douglas blowup last time. simone biles, woh h -- who has had more success than gabby heading into an olympics game. olympic games. i think she will become a household name.

finally for me, i'm a track and field fan. i love the sport because i am slow. one of the great moments for me is always the moment before the 100 when the entire stadium is silent. it's unlike any other silence you will hear. it has been a pleasure to watch usain bolt run. jeff: is gatlin a threat to him? julesa: h -- richardd: he's a threat. bolt has been an incredible performer in the biggest events. he's the greatest track athlete of my lifetime. you have to think of him of one of the great athletes. jeff: we will not see the russian athletes. jules: the russian athletes who gets permission to compete in track and field. we will not see that team in mass. doping will be a significant issue because it always is. certainly with lack of russians competing it becomes a bigger issue. jeff: is there and a living people an issue that

are not paying attention to? jules: i think once these games are over, all attention is going to turn to tokyo, the next summer olympics. there's a bribery scandal there. for $2 million around the voting around the 2020 games. looking ahead there are all sorts of additional issues on the corruption front. jeff: jules and richard, thank you to both of you. ♪

jeff: in 1994 a young "rolling stone" reporter got the chance of a lifetime, an interview with keith richards. the interviewer was rich cohen, and it added to his obsession with the rolling stones. he has written a book cataloging his years with the band along with interviews with rock 'n roll legends. it is called "the son and the moon and the rolling stones." the chicago tribune calls the book masterful and goes on to say hundreds have been written about this band and his will rank among the best of the bunch. i'm so pleased to have my friend back at this table. so pleased to have you. i said to you before, we just noted one of the great things is so much has been written about the stones but you bring this

perspective to it that is unique. that goes back to, not just when you met them in 1994, but your childhood. >> when i was a little kid, i was the youngest brother. my favorite song for a long time was "rhinestone cowboy" by glen campbell. i used to go into my room and listen to it. i called it "rhinestone therapy." my brother had locked the door and i heard the cowbell that it "honkytonk woman," and picked me up and levitated me to his room where i heard just enough of it before he started beating me back down the stairs. it ruined me for life and made mee a lifelong rolling stones fan. jeff: you call your brother's room in the attic heaven at the time. >> the attic was like, no rules. the frontier. no parents. just because my parents were to

lazy to walk up the extra flight of stairs. jeff: let's take it to where it began with you. -- to beyond where it began with you. let's take it back to where it began for the stones. this takes up so much of this book. >> i'm from chicago. i got interested in the blues going into the checkerboard lounge. it was buddy guy's club. they would serve you red wine when you were 14 years old. the rolling stones showed up and played there. muddy waters would play there. this music, when i heard -- i wrote about it in the book. sitting there at a table, hearing muddy waters sing "i'm a man." you could hear th emu -- the music moving from the blues to rock n' roll. coming to chicago, guys had to plug in their acoustic instruments so they could be

heard over the crowd. it's becoming this music that gets picked up by mick jagger and kids in england and heard like this brand-new thing. they try to copy it. and copying it, they change it. they record their second record in chicago, sort of bringing the music back to the city. jeff: some were more comfortable with the way that got copied and changed than others. rich: is it theft? is is app -- is it appropriation? there's a great line by some jazz musician that you can't steal a gift. the guys like muddy waters liked the rolling stones. they recognize what they were doing was not what pat boone was doing. they were not making covers of, like, "tutti frutti," like pat boone did. they were doing something interesting and new. i think when howling wolf needed

a backup band, they got the yardbirds. they recognized these were these incredible blues bands. if you looking at the rolling stones sing their version of "little red rooster," it is up there with the original versions. jeff: for so many it is beatles and stones. for you it was beatles and stones, always that comparison. rich: early on, the stone's manager realized the beatles had filled the niche. they were the good guys. they were wearing the white hats. the stones could fill that niche of the black hats. when i was a kid i heard the rolling stones, it was everything dirty and nasty a -- that i wanted to try when i was older. the rolling stones were like a gang. like the outsiders or west side story. i wasn't just the music. -- it wasn't just the music. it was the band and the nastiness and the infighting. all that was in the music. jeff: ray was the one at a very

young age who brought that out. rich: elvis had the kernel. -- colonel. before they met him their name was the rollin' stones. he said no one's going to buy a record from a band that cannot be bothered to spell their own name properly. he made them lose one of their members. when i was a kid, i heard someone describe them "they were attractive.' were -- attractive." that was going to be the stones. they were the opposite of the beatles. jeff: i said what was the key to the success. he said they showed up. rich: they literally showed up every night. there was a concert that the band the kinks had, and they couldn't show up because of a snowstorm. the stones filled that gig. that became their regular gig which made them a barroom

sensation. they didn't know if they should play because there were three people. there's a thing you can take away. what do you do, you play. you don't punish people who did come for the sins of the people who didn't come. jeff: one of the guys who did have a problem at times showing up was brian jones. another guy who was lost for various reasons, andrew was involved in those machinations as well. have beent must difficult to revisit some of that were talked to keith and mick about that. rich: to me the title of the book is "the sun, the moon, and the rolling stones." i told him what year i was born -- 1968. he laughed and said you should be answering my questions. brian jones died in 1969.

i was a kid who grew up with the band in the post brian jones era. this is his band. it was his slide guitar around which the rolling stones were formed. he named them. he made the set list. when the stones became successful, he lost control of the band. one of the things i love is all the things you have with your own friends, they are completely human in that way. they would have a tendency to single a guy out until they went insane. for a while that became brian jones. it's agonizing to read about him. he was such a great musician. his sound is so important in that music. you knew he was being driven slowly insane by the fact that he lost control of the band and became a drug casualty. the rolling stones i grew up builtof "some girls," is on the remains of this brian jones rolling stones. it's like discovering the antique age. jeff: you were already so read and listened in to the legend

that is this band and then you start working for rolling stone. you did some reporting beforehand. rich: when i first interviewed at rolling stone they said listen i'm going to ask you if -- he's going to ask you, if you could interview anyone in the world, who would it be? don't tell him the truth. whoever you interview, you will never interview that person. i wanted to interview the rolling stones. so i said bruce springsteen. six months later he said how would you like to go on the road with the rolling stones. it was one of these things, all of a sudden, i'm on a plane. keith had been busted not want -- been busted. i got met by his personal assistant and she said let's go. she said here on rock 'n roll -- you're on rock 'n roll time now.

they took me to a grade school in the suburbs. if you have ever wondered what's going on at the great school in the middle of summer, the rolling stones are playing there. in the grade school gym, the place of torture for many of us, the rolling stones have taken over. i watched them for about two weeks play through their entire catalogue, put together their show. the decision to be a reporter and not to go to law school was justified by those two weeks. jeff: you said that was maybe the best performance you ever had. rich: the best was just before they went on that tour. that was the voodoo lounge tour. they did this pop-up show to play before a live audience. keith richards says the reason we keep playing is this music doesn't exist until it is in front of a live audience. we need to have it in fron tof a live -- in front of a live audience. people always say "i saw the

stones at meadowlands and they good." that i said you haven't seen them. they exist at a bar at 3:00 in the morning where everyone is drunk and keith richards just found the group. i got to see that. you realize what they are, the greatest bar band in the history of the world. jeff: he became closer with keith and you did with mick. you write unsparingly in times about mick and are candid in your estimation of what his success and failures are. what was it about keith richards that turned on that like for -- light for you? rich: the thing that's great about the stones is that it's and the yang of mick and keith, hot and cold. disco versus blues. mick is cold and distant. i worked with him later. working with him he has the pop star sense of he doesn't want to let you know who he is. he remains mysterious and removed. like prince or bob dylan.

he has that incredible ability. keith is put at ease. he is a guy who seems to have found out how to live in the program, be comfortable in the world in his own skin. there's a great keith richards how to guide to life. there is none for matt jager -- mick jagger because he is a mystery. jeff: you have these interviews. you think you have gold. you look at the transcript and you realize he didn't say very much about anything. keith was the exact opposite. rich: i interviewed mick and i was like i'm getting scoops left and right. i get the tape back and it is like when you interview a pro athlete after a game. there's nothing here. you think you have a huge fish and you come back and you have a tire. but with keith, i'm like, this is a disaster, he mumbles, you can understand. sometimes he would start laughing for no reason. as if he suddenly relai -- realized how amazing his life

is. you get those transcripts back and it was absolutely brilliant. to me those guys together are the rolling stones. jeff: they ripped you after the first article came out. rich: they said he had gone through and counted, you mentioned keith richards 78 times but only mention mick jagger 32 times. this story is called "on the road with the rolling stones," but that is not correct. it should be called i love keith richards and want to have his babies. jeff: you acknowledge you do want to have his babies. rich: i do want to have his babies. jeff: keith did say something to you that stuck with you and resonated. with respect to charlie watts. charlie seemed to like you. what was it about that that made charlie -- i don't think he liked a lot of people. what was it about those interactions with charlie watts?

rich: i did end up getting this crazy access you don't get any more. i interviewed charlie -- i used to drive back to the hotel with charlie watts. he was really into chicago, really into jazz. stuff i'm interested in. we would have these conversations. about the civil war and american history. keith said on tape, i'm not going to do his accent -- he said charlie really likes you. you get the gold medal for that. charlie doesn't like many people. after that, it was sort of like, you're in. i felt like, as a little brother always in bed listening to the party downstairs and not being allowed to leave my room, i figured out how to hang out with people who were older and cooler than you and give a sense that you belong. all those skills came into play when i was hanging out with the stones. jeff: when you experience something like that, is there a moment where you come down and appreciate everything that has

happened and say my gosh? rich: about two years later, i was walking through new york city and i thought i can't believe that. at the time i was so focused. i was young. it was going to be a cover story for "rolling stone." i idolized a lot of the rolling stone writers. i knew the history of the magazine. i wanted to do a good job. i was trying to act like a professional. i didn't let myself reflect on the amazing experience until much later. that's what this book is, to some extent. jeff: through your lens. 12-year-old son. i was driving with him listening to his music. it occurred to me his music sucks. this is probably because i'm old. i'm an old guy. let me do some research. i realized it does kind of suck. that way we felt about rock 'n roll when i was a kid, you would wait for the next record the way people wait for the new iphone.

you think if it was the right record with the right collection of songs, you have a chance at having a good summer. it can change your life. that energy of a whole movement heading somewhere ended and died. it felt like it died when kurt cobain died. i thought the air went out of the balloon. this thing that was so important and was like to us a religion, it kind of died and nobody has told the whole story. i'm not old enough to have been with them in 1963, 1966, but my age is an advantage to step back and see the whole big picture. there's a famous quote. you have to wait until the evening to see how glorious the day has been. that was my goal of the book. to tell the story of rock 'n roll through the rolling stones. jeff: what's next for the

stones? rich: i think what will happen is they will be on stage somewhere and someone will say you died three years ago. i think they are just going to keep going and going. because that is what they do. john lennon famously said -- they got to the end of the road on the road. keith richards said there is no end of the road. jeff: "the sun, the moon, and the rolling stones." so good to see you again. rich: thank you a lot. really fun. ♪

>> i'm taylor riggs. you are watching "bloomberg west." "bloomberg your first word" news. tactics was combat among the items discovered. the suspect was discovered after an explosion. 10 states in the u.s. government seek to honor -- overrule --