>> from our studios in new york, this is "charlie rose." charlie: we begin with the aftermath of the shootings in dallas. the shooting is in morning after police officers forgotten down at the hands of micah johnson. it was the deadliest day for law enforcement since 9/11, on the heels of two caught on video shootings of black men in louisiana and minnesota. president obama will speak in dallas. joining me now is manny

fernandez. thank you for coming in. i know how busy you are. manny: thank you for having me on. charlie: give me a sense of dallas today and the president, and 43 as well coming together with the vice president. in a veryallas is interesting point. it is very relaxed, typical city. there was a bunch of school kids leaving. so many people stopped to shake

his hand, to hug him, too, to him. as i talked to him for a few minutes people came up to him and shook his hand, asked how he was doing. me whatlly captures for the city is going through right now. charlie: part of it for me is the chief of police seems to bothdone and communicates with a sense of calmness, integrity, and an understanding. charles: his role -- manny: his role and his performance today at this press conference really sets the tone. you are right. he has been extraordinarily personal, extraordinarily frank and honest, he has not shied away from talking about race,

how hard it is to he a police chief. this morning he used a little bit of humor talking about how he said my brain is fried. you'll hear a police chief on the national stage talk about that. and use those kinds of phrases. wehas projected calm and talked to a lot african-american residents who are proud of him. they are definitely watching for what he is saying. charlie: do you feel there is a sense that dallas police in itself can recover from this? manny: without a doubt. you hear that not only in the public statements and the press releases, and the official side of things but you see it in the unofficial side, in talking to people, walking around.

everyone is talking about this dallas strong idea. been sort, dallas has of battered in the last couple of years. not only did you have the ebola crisis, you had last year a gunman, armored vehicle attacked the police headquarters downtown. that wereose officers fired on last year were fired on this year. i think that there is that sense -- of a what meant is happening. charlie: coming after the idea for a long time after the kennedy assassination that it was a city of hate. they had to overcome that. manny: and that phrase, that

motto stung the city. it continues to sting the city. one of the things that happened was on the anniversary of the jfk assassination the 50th anniversary, dallas use that as a way to look at itself in the mirror and say were we a city of hey? what are we now? that process was there for some of those events. that helped dallas deal with itself and its future. charlie: and the mayor? how is he doing? manny: the same way. i think he has done great. a lot of people have praised what he is doing. officials that are going through something extraordinary. they are dealing with the investigation, the grief, the

chaos. they are able to not forget they are human and talk in human ways. that helps calm people, helps calm the city. charlie: everybody is asking all kinds of questions about the unraveling of this relationship between a segment of the population and police. you hear the eloquent voices like the chief suggesting we are acts by thet awful police, this is a small minority and we feel we have a lot of men and women risking their lives and this is a terrible reflection on them to see these kinds of things. yet they continue to happen. yet we seem to be as a society not knowing how to find a way to get on the journey to healing.

manny: that is true. the only thing that comes to this morningck to with the chief. near the top of the press conference he gave one of the best summaries of what it is like to be a policeman in america today, and i have heard from other officers he was saying we put too much on her officers. we expect officers to solve too much of society's problems. schools fail, give it to the cops. a dog problem, give it to the cops. he says it is too much. we cannot do it all. -- wordedrd that from differently from a lot of people in law enforcement. i think that is part of it. it is part of thinking about what is it we want our officers

to be doing? what is the role? acknowledging what we ask of them when we put them on the front lines. manny: a presidential -- charlie: a presidential campaign suddenly seem small in the face of the shock in dallas. and the racial divisions they exposed again. he has a point. manny: he does. for the reporters covering this you just start wondering is everyone ok? it does really put things into perspective. there was a false alarm the other day at dallas police headquarters. there was word of a suspicious person in a parking garage at the back of the dallas pd headquarters. that caused a scare.

there were swat officers with weapons. there were members of the public caught up in this because they outside of memorial the headquarters. to be there and to talk to regular people and to see how scared they are, it brought that home. there was this idea everyone was like what is happening now? what is this? it struck home. charlie: thank you for coming. it was a pleasure to have you on the program. manny: thank you for having me on. charlie: we'll be right back. stay with us. ♪ charlie: we continue our conversation about police use of force, force applied and violence applied against the police and the idea of the black lives matter movement. , he is ao charles blow

contributor to cnn. i am pleased to have him. you say this tears at the fabric of our nation. --e us a sense of how you whenever we see these stories, -- more story of i minority a minority person being shot by the police, we say why? what do we need? then we see the rebellion against the police we say how could they do that when these are people who try to some word us -- support us. there are two things happening simultaneously. necessarily ons interpersonal racism. what you and i might share back and forth, whatever biases i may

have, whether i'm aware of them or not aware of them read that is a conflict in height and situations of stress. there is another conversation being had about the systemic horses of racism that does -- forces of racism that does not require participation by any person. those are the structures that pushed these populations into contact in the first place. i think having both those conversations simultaneously is incredibly important. charlie: somewhat draw the line back to straight -- slavery saying we did not deal with it. even though there has been racial progress. and laws have been changed. charles: absolutely laws have been changed. dealing with slavery, you can argue that has not taken place.

we have to think about the things that happened after slavery. inequitiesstructural that we and the society into , state andederal local municipalities that created a concentrated poverty we have, created the american of loanhousing policies banking policies, infrastructure decisions about where we put our and our and streets, waste in and out of these cities. those are systemic structural a societyt we did as that created powder kids and then we say this is a personal choice people have made to live in the most violent, poorest parts of our cities. they simply made the choice to live there.

we have designed a system that created those places. then we say there is violence bubbling up and that is why the police are there. but we have to take responsibility that we created those places. these are our chickens coming home to roost and we have to deal with untangling all of that at the same time we are dealing thatthis tip of the spear we are dealing with. charles: all of that has to be done with simultaneously. charlie: to deal with it means what? charles: part of dealing with it, legislative. there are ways to deal with how -- over policing. there is not a stop in frisk in waryork city, or a colossal on drugs. we make cultural decisions that

this was how we are going to deal with problems. dealing with those problems had incredible racial imbalances. steps toke legislative change our policies. that is really important. martin luther king said the law may not make you love me but it can stop you from lynching me. the idea we can do things that can limit the adverse impacts on populations is a real thing. separate from that there is the moral argument that must be one that says there are not populations that are constitutionally, genetically prone to violence. there are conditions under which human beings behave in certain ways.

we have contributed to making those conditions ripe for certain populations in this country and we have to figure out ways to back off from that. charlie: is that leadership or grassroots? charles: all sorts of leadership. the president, whoever the next one may be, setting the proper tone. it is also people voicing their opinions in protests. charlie: we talked about it, it clearly is the president who has the bully pulpit and who has the wecutive resources to say need the full weight of the community behind this. this is urgent. this is demanding. this is necessary. charles: he can do that but as

you and i both know policing is a local thing. he can talk but there is little the federal government can do with local policing. we have to change hearts and minds. so people who believe they are not part of this discussion, who say this is a conflict between the people who wear blue and the people born into brown and black skin. that is happening separate from me and you. that is not the case. you are complicit in whatever police do in this country. they are an articulation of our desires and our laws. charlie: are you saying everyone is complicit? when there is an act of violence against an unwanted act of -- and everybody is complicit in that? charles: what i am saying is we

are complicit in the architecture that pushes more and more people together increases the interactions and when you increase the interactions invariably some one person will do one thing wrong and that will be the end result of what we have done to push them together in the first place. charlie: is this a decade kind of endeavor we have to make? charles: these sorts of changes are generational. if you look at the civil rights movement of our times, they have all been generational. they look like it happens within a couple of years but there is a lot of groundwork that happened. the gay movement, women's liberation. all of them. charlie: we always say this

about gun control, and these kinds of moments. one has been so deep, so troubling, and the combination of baton rouge to dallas, at long last we will wake up. or do you believe something else will come along and two weeks from now we will talk about something else? i ames: strangely enough illogically optimistic. there is anelieve beinging of young people able to connect the dots. presental, cultural, about what the system has done and how they make choices. iselieve that enlightenment a positive advance.

whether or not it immediately leads to some sort of keys and harmony i have no clue. i believe however strongly in the long-term effect knowledge is in fact a transformative thing and that coming into knowledge of self, knowledge of systems is a transformative thing. in the long run this will -- we will see all of the ups and downs, that it was part of a positive. charlie: i can hear people saying god i hope he is right. i want to talk about black lives matter. rudy giuliani. i firmly believes he believes what he says.

say about it? charles: that it is inherently racist? charlie: and black on black neighborhoods, and white on white in white neighborhoods. it is fascinating whoection to say people point out that there are people who have been racially oppressed and want to list those people -- lift out of that oppression by centering them in the conversation and elevating them to a position where you pay attention to the oppression they have suffered become people who you call racist. it is incredible.

an incredible thing. and it is an amazing rhetorical sleight of hand that you see all the time. blackms of this idea that communities are inherently violence and white people are saving black people from killing themselves, that argument is inherently race. there ist its case something deficient and effective that we must save you from yourselves. rather than turning -- black lives matter. where did it start? charles: i'm not part of black lives matter it gained steam after the mike brown killing in ferguson. incredibly as an

idea. there is both the formal structure of that, there are chapters. but there are people who sympathize. that makes it tricky. we in media will say these are black lives matter protesters. we actually don't know. sometimes people just show up. you don't have to get a ticket to march. you can just say i'm supporting this idea. >> are they having an impact? charles: an incredible impact. they have grabbed the conversation. they are directing the conversation. you have to think about 3-4 years ago, he who was advocating ideas of police

restraint, improvement of black communities on a national scale that could mobilize people into the streets? there were people who did work but they have been able to in a short time move tremendous numbers of people into action. that should not go without notice. charlie: thank you for coming. charles: thank you for having me. charlie: back in a moment, stay with us. ♪

4 we continue -- >> charlie: we continue with british politics. the home secretary emerged victorious after speculation about the future of tory leadership. david cameron will hand in his resignation wednesday. he announced he would step down after voters opted to leave the european union last month read the leading voices in the campaign to leave, she dropped out of the race as well. to talk about the change is john micklethwait from bloomberg. welcome. john: a very diminishing role.

6 david cameron -- charlie: david cameron is leaving. where is he going? john micklethwait he will probably stay in parliament. i think he honestly doesn't know. i think he is in a state of shellshocked. i think he always knew there was a danger of losing its. he is generally a lucky politician. charlie: does he consider himself a chosen child? john micklethwait i think he considers himself very unlucky. had not goned gove to believe side he probably would have one. he may be right on that. that is what you have seen in the tory leadership. a follow on from that. theresa may inherited george osborne's machine. his attempt to be the next tory leader. what happens to george

osborne? john micklethwait -- john: the big question is, does may keep osborne? does she go to the foreign current secretary to replace him? a lot of europeans argue they weren't enthusiastic about george osborne but they see him as extremely competent. there will be that forced to keep them in that place. osborne is less toxic with those people who wanted to leave. what happens to boris johnson? john micklethwait all his life he has been loved. loved, appreciated and make people laugh. he has been the court jester. he was funny and clever and

amusing. it seemed to be going quite well. .lways fiercely ambitious lotaw his chance and a friends would say he accepted the referendum to be won by romaine and then he would be the person who led the league campaign. he counted on remain winning. he would deny that to the end of his days. charlie: he created havoc. john micklethwait it's a new world for him. living onron is something he always knew was possible. it is very new to him. i think he doesn't have an idea yet. quitea may was a

conservative, not flamboyant figure, the daughter of a pastor , identical to angle merkel -- angela merkel. persuadedreasons they cannon.e was a loose she was not somebody, she was outside of the mainstream. charlie: how do she differ from david cameron. slightly left posh background. she is less flamboyant from him. to imagine him going off to the arctic. she is tougher. charlie: i bit of margaret thatcher. john: less radical. a very conservative person.

she has been ahead on things. she was an early supporter of same-sex marriage. she was very tough on immigration. more tough than other people. she is a little bit of angela merkel. she has this reputation of thing pragmatic. .he was home secretary if you don't like another politician in british politics, you make them home secretary. charlie: there's a vast difference between the constituency. john: you have a party with all bernie sanders activists and all the people to the right of mrs. thatcher, mrs. clinton in the senate. they do not know what to do. they do not want jeremy corbin as their leader. he is sitting there in a position which looks

increasingly odd. withdrawn from the conservative side of the race. were rushing to support theresa may. on the other side of the fence you have jeremy corbin who is even less popular with the labor mps. he is saying i'm going to stay. if there a vote i'm going to go to this left-wing activist and bring into the party. , theyve the tory party have somebody to rally around. she walked into a room at the house of commons. everyone made huge noise. they think they have survived. there is still talk of splits.

we had the fcp and things like that. negotiatellenge is to the departure from the eu. she has said she will do that. the one thing she has said she will not start that until next year. file theirtish to divorce proceedings they need to launch article 50. effectively you hand the process to the rest of the europeans. the rest of the europeans are saying get on with it. british little leverage. the later they file, the easier it is to get a pre-deal. on a two-year process your out. she has been relatively clever on that. charlie: there's a possibility

she will select george osborne. john: there is a possibility. there were rows. not appalling ones but there was some friction. charlie: did you believe austerity, his strategy contributed to the victory? you can argue it both ways. they had not been relatively tight in the way it was. britain would not have had that opportunity. what is true is the british version of globalization was the rewards going to the top. i think on the whole there will be people who will jump up and say he should not have been so austere. he established a reputation as being a prudent and efficient place.

charlie: well it be in the advantage or brett not to be in the european union that you can see? other than a sense we have regained our sovereignty? john: there is a potential way in which britain could do well. i am clutching at straws. number one, if it negotiates a good deal with the eu which gives it access to the single market. whilst moderating immigration. deal.s the , all thoseavians questions, they are in the eu but not in the euro. they have hidden behind the british. the scandinavians will feel

slightly lowly with that. woulds all the finances rather be in london than other places. if britain gets a different deal with europe and ends up as a member or something close. as theond one is as long remains a inward looking economy, britain could be this version of singapore, this free trading structure that deals with america. then they look good. the problem is that would take a long time to achieve. less equal economy than it is now. that causes another set of problems. charlie: thank you for coming. back in a moment. ♪

charlie: on tuesday morning nasa's jetcraft made the 1.8 billion mile journey to jupiter's atmosphere. the mission cost $1.1 billion. it will give us the first glimpse below the clouds of the planet. joining me to discuss the future derrick exploration is

ush.s, lauren gr derek is in philadelphia. let me start with you. it is so good to talk about this. it fascinates so many of us. why was this insertion into jupiter's atmosphere so complicated? >> first it is going to be a polar orbit. they are trying to set up an orbital path that will allow the spacecraft to avoid the most damaging portions of the magnetic field and radiation field. jupiter has the strongest magnetic field, the worst radiation field you can imagine. we are talking about sensitive electronics. they want to not only get there on time, but to make sure the

proper orbit sets of the spacecraft so it can do all of the scientific examination it has to do and avoids the worst as itf the magnetic field makes the 37 orbits around the planet. construct this armor. >> there are two parts of this. setting up the orbits a you can miss these nasty bouts of radiation. physically do something with the electronics on the spacecraft. the word that is used is hardening. you set it up in such a way you can protected as best you can from excess radiation. in this case they have gone a giant step further. they have created a vault made intolf-inch thick titanium

which they have put the main computers and most electronics for the experiments that are going to be used. the hope is they can reduce the inunt of radiation this gets every pass. they want to see what they can do to drive down the total dose, the total amount of radiation the spacecraft will receive. they know the amount of radiation is going to be degrading the electronics but over time they hope they will be able to get enough work done before the electronics are really damaged beyond repair if you will in these 37 orbits that the vault arn, it will do quite a bit to protect them from damage. >> you are at the laboratory. can you talk about that? >> it was very exciting.

even for the hardened reporters. it was this electric feeling. we had a press conference then there was a time where we were sitting around. all of them were so nervous making sure it got into orbits. maneuver forous the spacecraft. it is difficult. >> this is a small group of dedicated scientists and journalists in this issue. i know it is scinating to talk to all of you about this. can you put this in perspective? in terms of the difficult jobs am aware does this rank? the hardest thing nasa has done. people will take issue with

that. but talking about the insane orbit. there are a lot of unknowns. they knew about the radiation environment but they didn't know how it was going to affect the spacecraft and they had a press conference before it happened. there is this debris field that is similar to the asteroid belt that we have. jupiter.debris around if one of those hit june oh, which is going very fast, one of the fastest spacecrafts, then the whole thing would have been blown. needles was on pins and . that made it more sweet when it turned out to be a success. quite someone said jupiter could hold the key to everything. is that hyperbole?

>> when you look at the history of the solar system jupiter is the first planet to come into form after the sun was formed. a museum ofesents the early history of the solar them. the more we can understand about jupiter itself the more we can understand how the planets formed. several models are in existence now of how solar systems form. we looking to gather more information so we can identify which models fits what we have right now. without the information about wanting to are left pick which one of these fits our model best. by examining jupiter and the atmosphere, and the interior, to identify what kind of core there , these factors will help us

understand how our solar system came into existence. this becomes important. now we are identifying solar systems in other parts of the galaxy. astronomy, news in there are so many other stars and planets. it's beginning to look like almost every star has a planets. how are the solar systems forming? it's important because when we look around the galaxy we see snapshots of the development of solar systems. we can't see the process. it takes too long. we need models. we need confirmation of models. that is how jupiter is going to help us. is a limited field of scientific journalism.

some of these topics, that has not been replete with women. represent a fascinating -- but what has been an unusual situation. is that changing? what was it about this feel that you?sted >> it was mostly women. >> your parents are nasa engineers. >> that is correct. that is one of the reasons i love space so much. have grown up with people who have been enthusiastic about it. .y mother is a great example it has been in my blood for a wild. >> we know where you guide from. >> i have always been interested in science.

i have been a science journalist for a a while. much is always so fascinating. >> granted with the other things most on in the world, often it is a very upbeat and optimistic field to cover. .here's always something new it shows how capable we are as a species. >> i like to say it is aspirational. , we are going for things we've never gone four. we have never done something like that. being able to cover it and be there for it, it feels like the best humanity has to offer. >> even failure is a great thing.

it shows we have tried. even if juno had not gone into orbit we sent a spacecraft to another planet in our solar system. that is incredible. there is so much brightness. >> i have known you for some time. i never knew how you came to this field. >> when i was a kid i was the one kid who was always interested in science, always interested in space exploration. 11 years old, i made it -- it was my thing to learn everything about the technology, of the saturn five launch vehicles. everything i could get my hands on. i ate that for breakfast. >> can i ask you about the moon?

there was this comment about this being the most difficult day -- a thing nasa has ever done. -- not to beout too skeptical, is that saying too much? >> we can look at a range of missions and how difficult they are. you mention the lunar missions. now we have humans involved. that's another level of concern. we want to make sure they come back alive. that is what we are driving four. then the jupiter orbital insertion is another level of that. horizons, at the new that was a seriously critical issue. not only are the calculations correct, we have to realize the

engineers are modifying all the way along toward that approach to make sure the window is hit at exactly the right time so that all the plans can be done. it is traveling at incredible speeds. the flyby is going to go by quickly. you find these engineers are at being able to put these different factors together to make these missions work. >> i want to talk about the specifics here of the juno mission. they had 3-d printed parts. >> the first 3-d printed parts to fly on a spacecraft.

quite something we will see more of in the future. >> for sure. it is an integral part of what nasa does. they have printers on the international space station. it's good for creating parts you need on the fly. with the iss that has to be launched from the ground. if you need a replacement part a 3-d printing can be a good stopgap. >> even private companies are catching on. that to launch things into space. it's become something very important. >> how is space x doing? >> their track record is incredible.

people aren't flocking to spacex for their launches. they are getting pretty good at it. they learn from that. 4ey have been able to land rockets at this point. >> it is amazing to think how critical we are that we are not only judging the takeoffs but the landings. fieldt is a whole new that spacex is pursuing. landing, bringing back the booster so they can be reusable. we are beginning to look at making use of this so the booster systems are reusable. spacex has been remarkable. it is those technologies that is

that to help to drive side of the space business and make it more viable and us useful. i think about how spacex is doing what it is doing. you can pursue the difficult things like juno at jupiter. as the commercial entities take on this work, they have the ability to do things that perhaps nasa can't do as easily. they are adding to our capability to access lower orbit and put up different kinds of payloads, to create systems that can work together and get more done than one system by itself. it is great to see what spacex is doing. we talk about the private public division,fter juno is

going towe are not have a spacecraft looking at one of the planets for a first time in a long time. >> that is true. there will still be spacecraft -- atg at linux up close, planets up close, particularly mars. the mission on that has been extended. the issue is we don't have anything in the pipeline for further exploration and the solar system for major planets coming up. this,r way to look at nasa has done a tremendous job of looking at all of the planets of our solar system in flyby or in close-up orbital missions like we have seen jupiter with galileo and juno.

it is not to say there isn't more work that needs to be done but when we look at what nasa is , and for resources to use how that funding has to be divvied up among the things they want to achieve, somewhere along the line something is going to break down in terms of being able to fund everything. as nasa turns more toward developing the infrastructure to look at mars with manned missions there is a lot of money going in that direction. less money available to our space science. >> we will have to leave it there. a fascinating discussion. thank you so much. thank you all very much. ♪

mark: hello again from downtown cleveland. republicans are gathering ahead of the national convention next week. we have a brand-new bloomberg politics poll which is surprising. important results about hillary clinton and donald trump and how they are doing a month college educated voters. first, a triptych of the news stories print one, democratic unity in the north, and another, about deep stakes intrigue in the midwest, but we begin in the south, pacific league in alice, president oba