♪ announcer: from our studios in new york city, this is "charlie rose." charlie: welcome to the program once again. we look at dallas in the aftermath of the horrific events there. today, president obama and former president bush spoke at a memorial service. here is coverage from cbs evening news with scott kelly. can make us a better country. those are the words the president this afternoon. he eulogized the slain police officers of dallas, pc's this moment of national attention to play for reason for both sides of the racial divide.

president obama: we wonder if an african-american community feels fairly -- unfairly targeted and police department that fear, they can never expand -- understand each other's experience. it is hard not to think sometimes the center won't hold, and things mode -- might get worse. >> the center is where he hoped to draw registers and police. he criticized each for ignoring the truth to be found in the middle. obama: when anyone, no matter how their attentions -- intentions might be called bigots, we or undermine those officers we depend on for our safety. study after study shows that whites and people of color experience the criminal justice system differently. if you are black, you are more likely to be pulled over or

search or arrested. we cannot simply turned away and dismiss those in peaceful protest as troublemakers or paranoid. >> mr. obama eulogized the five officers, but he also brought into the room the memory of the two men killed by police this month who were the reason for the dallas protest. president obama: even those who dislike the phrase "black lives matter" should surely be able to hear the pain of alton sterling's family, just as we should hear the students and coworkers describe their affection for philando castile, as a gentle soul. >> as a nation, mr. obama said, we ask too much of police and not enough of ourselves. president obama: we choose to under invest in decent schools. we allow poverty to fester so entire neighborhoods offer no

prospect for gainful employment. we refuse to fund drug treatment and mental health programs. [applause] obama: we flood communities with so many guns that it is easier for a teenager to buy a gun and then to get his hands on a computer or even a book. [applause] president obama: and then we tell police, you are a social worker, you are the parents. you are the teacher. you are the drug counselor. we tell them to keep those neighborhoods in check at all without causing any political blowback or inconvenience. don't make a mistake that might disturb our own peace of mind. and then we feign surprise when

periodically, the tensions boil. >> the president said, we must reject despair. we are not as divided as we seem. man well has more from the service. has more from the service. >> ♪ oh say can you see by the dawn's early light ♪ >> there were five empty seats at the memorial, each holding an american flag representing the officers that were killed. dallas mayor mike rawlings -- mike rawlings: our pain is your pain. we'll do what we want to do. under -- honor the lives of these five officers. krol,ahrens, michael michael smith, brent thompson, zammaripa. >> he also honored --

rawlings: he honored not only dallas but police chiefs, police officers, the higher calling across the united states of america. brown, known for never being at a loss of words, use lyrics musty wonder song to one of the officers. -- used lyrics from a stevie wonder's song to honor the officers. it can make you wish you were born in another time and place. lifetimean bet your and twice is doubled that god knew exactly where he wanted you to be placed. [applause] >> the theme of the service was unity. former president george w. bush who lives in dallas, only miles from where the attack happened, directly addressed the fallen officers' families.

george bush: your loss is unfair. we can't explain it or stand behind -- beside you, we can pray that god will comfort you with the hope deeper than sorrow and stronger than death. >> he also acknowledged their sacrifice. george bush: they went or duty called. they defended us, even to the end. they finished well. we will not forget what they did for us. ♪ charlie: we begin with president obama's speech in dallas. five police officers were killed by a racially motivated gunmen whose killings followed the killings of two black men in louisiana and minnesota. he urged the nation to meet the challenge of the difficult moment. president obama: i'm seen how inadequate words can bring leaving lasting change.

i have seen how inadequate my own words have been. and so i am reminded of a gospel.in john's "let us love not with words or speech, but with action and in truth." we are sustaining unity, we need to get through difficult times. honor these five outstanding officers who we have lost, then we will need to act on the truths that we know. and that is not easy. it makes us uncomfortable.

but we are going to have to be honest with each other and ourselves. charlie: george w. bush also spoke at the memorial. george bush: it seems like the forces pulling us apart are stronger than the forces binding us together. too often, we judge other groups by their worst examples, well judging ourselves by our best intentions. charlie: on the campaign trail, clinton praise reforms made by the police department in dallas. she spoke from new hampshire where she accepted the endorsement from bernie sanders. hillary clinton: i am asking for all of us to really search our hearts and minds to make sure we don't, we don't have those implicit biases. let's learn from police thattment's like dallas had made strong progress and applied their lessons nationwide, because everyone in

every community benefits when ,here is respect for the law and when everyone is respected by the law. charlie: peter baker joins me, who covers the president and knows president obama well. tell me what you thought of the speech today, and is this message, is this a role he handled well, because you can see the english in the president -- anguish in the president as he spoke in dallas. this really serves as a bookend, kind of a sad one. 2004, he came to national attention with a speech to the country at the democratic convention in which he talked about how there is not a black america and a white america and a red america and the blue america but the united states of america. it was that hopeful sentiment of common purpose that he rose to the white house four years later. here he is now at the end of his presidency, and he has faced

series of episodes like this so searing and painful that even he said today, i am beginning to doubt. i have moments of doubt about what is happening in our country. he said not to give in to that doubt, understand the race relations as they are, still better than in the past, and pull together to a more hopeful future. charlie: how would he define what is happening in america voter -- america? peter: he would talk about the effects of a long period of racial history that goes back to slavery and jim crow and so on and so forth. while progress has been made, he thought the progress the country had made, it does not mean every bit of bias and hatred has been wiped out. he had to straddle a tough line today between black and blue, trying to say, we are not taking

sides between police and african-american communities. those sides have to find ways to work together to get past this kind of incendiary moment. charlie: did he write the speech himself? peter: i think he had a lot to do it the speech himself. he has been working on it. it is difficult because he has given a version of this so many times in the last few years. he struggled and talked about in the speech, he struggled to find words that convey something that will actually have impact. he said i don't know my own words are having the impact, or are adequate exactly. that is a real admission for a politician who has lived on the strength of his oratory. he finds in this moment the oratory, the speeches, the words had not been enough. they have not enough to heal the country. charlie: it is interesting, and i am asking -- here is a man with extraordinary skills and resonates so to speak with harvard and harvard law and all

that he has done. a black man with a kenyan father, a white mother, written beautifully about it, talking about his father and growing up as he had. as a man, who as president, basically did not want to come head on, correct me if i am wrong, talking about racism. peter: i think that is right. he came into office wanting to be a president for all americans, not just the first african-american president. he knows his place in history, it was written the day he took office. the first african-american ever to serve as a president. that is the first lines of his obituary. he understands that. he went to go beyond that and not be identified in those terms. he had a lot on his plate, economic crisis, two wars. he did not talk much about race and his first term. it was in his second term he opened up more.

that is a function of circumstance as much. he does not have an election to worry about anymore, and a series of events from ferguson to baltimore to minnesota and louisiana and dallas, they forced him to become more of a leader on these issues, talk about them more. it has to be a disappointment that a presidency that hoped to be a symbol of progress is no finding itself in the end of its term -- now finding itself in the end of its term with issues that seem profane full -- so painful. charlie: we are joined by alan blinder in new york, also of the new york times. tell us about dallas today and the president coming and joe biden and former president zhou put -- former president bush. alan: it was extraordinary. the event that they spoke at was invitation-only. it was largely, the symphony was the with police officers. most of them dallas officers.

most of it also from los angeles. south carolina, massachusetts. alsoood in the room was one of hope in a lot of ways, but there were tough issues to talk about. president bush touched on them, president obama touched on those . it was interesting how the reaction evolved before and after the speech. when i spoke to people before, they weren't sure what to make of president obama coming to dallas, what he would say amid all the turmoil. a number of police officers were quite skeptical of what he might say. afterward, positive response. charlie: what do you think it was about the speech that touched them? alan: the chief of the los angeles county sheriff's department sought the president straddle the line very well. there are -- saw the president straddle the line very well. there are people called in every day, but the black american

experience has been difficult. law enforcement is often blamed for that. he said he thought the president managed to weave together a few different narratives in american life and talk about how they affect everybody. charlie: peter, back to you. some sense of this president -- the is, he has said before worst day of his presidency was the bombing in newtown. he feels deeply these acts of violence. he is he does, because such a detached personality at times, he does not necessarily emote in a public way like bill clinton and george w. bush did as president. he does feel these things very deeply. you can see the emotion on his face today in that speech. he talks to people who see him every day. these are the moments that trouble him, haunt him. they are beyond his control, and

to some extent, they are a function of larger forces he has failed to tame. they weigh on him. they would on any president. , great: alan, in dallas respect for the dallas police department because of its leadership, am i correct? alan: absolutely. i have had more people come up and say they wish the chief would run for president. deep respect. it should be said that he has critics. he is popular, has been popular since last thursday. a few months ago, some of the officer groups were criticizing him in very pointed ways. one had called for his resignation. years been up and down 10 for david brown, the chief here. the department in general has a deep well of respect for the city. charlie: how would they characterize it, simply that he stood up for them but at the same time -- go ahead.

alan: officers and dallas were concerned about shift scheduling -- in dallas were concerned about shift scheduling. but now they have been talking about how chief brown stood up and told how these needed to be discussed on a natural state -- national stage but were not being talked about in a high-profile way. there was a news conference he talked about the burdens placed on modern police officers, talking about how in dallas, there is a loose dog problem, and the police are having to help with that. so despite the tensions in turmoil that have sometime shadowed the chief's tenure in dallas, he has become a popular figure. how long that will last, we will see. charlie: is there a sense that dallas is healing? alan: it is a slow healing process. the funeral begins tomorrow. tomorrow in dallas, we will say goodbye more formally to two of

the officers that will continue throughout the week. how theant to see funerals go. chief brown made the comment that he would be, this abuse hardest week of his life -- this would be the hardest week of his life. charlie: peter baker, who has written about so well, so many politicians and have as president and leadership, soon will be going to jerusalem as a bureau chief. we wish him well, look forward to a book he is doing on the former secretary of state of president bush 41. thank you both. back in a moment. ♪

charlie: we continue with bill bratton, the new york city police commissioner announced yesterday the number of shootings in the city have hidden -- hit historical lows since the first half of 2016. i am pleased to have him back at this table. bill: please to be with you as always. charlie: let's talk about dallas and many ramifications. you have always been viewed as a police commissioner, you look to the future and try to maximize the best there can be in police work, both in terms of walter, in terms of tech -- culture, in

terms of technology, and training the best possible police officers. with that context, talk about dallas. bill: dallas is certainly an american tragedy. as you recall, charlie, we had a similar experience in new york where detectives were murdered before christmas, and we had this conversation. i have been admiring chief brown. since that time, he helped ring america to understand the dilemma american police face in today's society. we have become the catchall for all of the ills of society, an off a lot of of burdens of young police officers. he is also reflective so something not recognized -- of something not often recognize, how chiefs in major cities, the progression of professionalism in my profession over the last

40 years since i joined the police department in 1970. it has been a ordinary, the creativity -- extraordinary, the creativity, the passion american police chiefs bring to the profession. he is represented if of that. he served -- charlie: tell me about the professionalism he is, and how you achieve it. bill: it is the idea we recognize we are a profession that is continuing in need of improvement. we have come a long way of journeying. you would never get to the final destination. i have watched changes over the last 45 years. i would argue as a profession of american policing, it has progressed much more rapidly than american society as a whole. charlie: because of leadership in police departments? bill: leadership and creativity in the police departments, most of them found changes originated

at the local police level. the concept of community policing, problem-solving. charlie: why are we having so many incidents? clearly they would all recognize we have more evidence of it, and we see more of it, so it is easier to prove. bill: the number of incidences relatively small. but they are magnified in critically by the world we -- incredibly by the world we live in, social media. is it more than the past, or are we more accurately reflecting what it has always been? i think we have much less than the past. her in the 1960's and 1970's, we were -- during the 1960's and 1970's, we were dealing with the issues of those times are you we are further along than we were. charlie: what is your reaction to obama's speech. bill: i had my opportunity to

read it on the way up to this interview. he hit all the right notes, as he usually does. he is incredibly eloquent in these times of crises. the high wire act as a black that he has to walk as president, that he has to walk -- in some respects the same highway or american place chiefs are on. -- police chiefs are on. people look to see it. charlie: here's what he said, words are inadequate. my words have been inadequate. need to act on the truths we know. what can we do better? what action must we undertake? john,uoted -- he quoted let us not love with words or speech but with action and truths. we have had a lot of speech. when as of what -- police officer is shot or there is action by a police officer which is a tiny minority of the

police. but at the same time, we walk away from these with words, the president is saying we have to act. bill: think of the term, we have to speak with truth. to fix the problem, you have to admit we have the problem. we have been upfront in american policing recognizing we have many problems. among our ranks him a racist, people who are criminals. wase is less than there right into the profession. they were still that percentage, one or 2% -- 1% or 2%. we choose to allow myself, my department, my profession to be defined by 1% or 2%, if we can't tolerate them. at the same time, we have to admit we have things to correct. as policeonths commissioner in new york, to

address so much of what the black lives matter movement for example, can, areas of focus they are demanding change. and i look at the 10 points, the majority were already doing it in new york. they want to improve training. no department in the -- america doesn't want more training, dealing with race issues, legitimacy. we have come so far, and i'm committed to ensung that journey continues. charlie: let's talk about training in a moment. there are something i call implicit racism that i want to talk about. that is part of the training that goes on at nypd, black lives matter. you have said i have no concern at all with black lives matter, the name or the focus or the concerns of blacks. the concern i has, any organization is the to stereotype us, define us, allows racism to grow is the stereotype

that painting of a wide brush of a race of color or religion. all police are racists or that cops are cold-blooded killers, you have the same consequence. bill: i continue that quote from my availability yesterday. with the 40 million blacks in this country, the unfortunate reality is that so much crime in that community, but they are the victims of that crime -- and we define all 40 million as criminals because they have criminals in their ranks, or do we sing to -- seek to focus on those committing the acts? so the problem i have with black lives matter, i don't have a problem with their goal, if you will, or the term black lives matter. they are concerned -- charlie: what do you have trouble with? bill: the rhetoric, which is painting with a broad brush the

very origin was to really go after the police. the police are part of societal issues they are trying to address. societal issues of the criminal justice system, prosecutors, judges, incarceration system, the rates of incarceration, the concept that so much of what leads people into a criminal life or creates a path for a committal life are the societal injustices they suffer. schools that don't teach, government that does not seem to respond to their needs. the total abject failure of the well intended effort to teach it to july's mental institutions -- d institutionalize mental institutions in the 1970's. charlie: take a look at this. this is from the president talking today, no institution is immune from bias. we cannot dismiss it as a symptom of political correctness

or reverse racism. here is the president. obama: some feel to a far greater extent discrimination. although most of us do our best to guard against it, and teach our children better, none of us is entirely innocent. no institution is entirely immune. that includes our police departments. we know this. charlie: do you agree with that? bill: 100%. charlie: how do you teach implicit acts of racism? bill: implicit bias is the term he used. it is something that, as we are focused on training of the nypd, we have increased phenomenally the training given to officers.

we recently put together a three-day retraining program for all of the personnel with a lot of focus on implicit bias, understanding we all have it. it is the reality of it. understanding how we control it -- charlie: how do people understand it? bill: don't correct the problems , admit you have problems. by admitting it exists, science proves it, a study just came out a couple of days from harvard looking at police use of force and finding there is implicit except most use of force in the most catastrophic use of force, taking of a life. in that instance, the deadly force, they could not find implicit bias on the part of police officers. in many of the other interactions, the multitude said it was there. knowing it exists and recognizing this, this is how

you begin to solve or deal with the problem. if you deny it, you will not address it. charlie: so you have his programs that help them understand where there is implicit bias? bill: that is correct. charlie: testing a series of questions -- -- american policing is ahead of the curve trying to address it, even as we are trying to define it. charlie: in new york state, is it true with police departments in less urban areas, any difference in police -- bill: i don't think -- charlie: the difference in geography, standards of police departments? bill: that is an interesting question. i don't have an answer to that. minorities, bias increased or listened? a community that has no minorities, it is interesting.

i don't have an answer to that. charlie: you think of david o'brien -- david brown, the way he handled this. bill: he is one of our best. charlie: did you know of him before this? bill: oh yes. charlie: the major commission? bill: he was here in new york. myself andne like most american police chiefs in major cities, we are firm believers and supporters and implementers of community policing was something he stands very tall among police chiefs in his advocacy and creativity. charlie: you want to know what made him? what is it about him and how did he become as you ask about -- how did he become the police officer he became? bill: very interesting, blacks particularly in law enforcement, when you understand and appreciate all they are up

, there is not a blacktop that will not tell you about his negative experiences at the hands of cops growing up. despite that, they come into policing. they come in with a passion that they want to make a difference. i have seen it time after time with black officers. -- and this is the point if you think of what chief brown talked about the other day -- if you want to create, guard these expressions, create the change, become the change, so start coming in, stop demonstrating. create change on the inside. i like that expression. i like the guy, and the expression -- change from within is faster and more certain than trying to force it from the outside. charlie: do you, and i ask this office after there is a terrible use of guns -- often after there

is a terrible use of guns or war,ns that seem only for used in these awful attacks like is a cry aftere newtown. a cry for gun control. do you think there were something different about what happened in dallas? bill: two thoughts. i had been a strong management of gun control ever since i became a chief. charlie: what put you in that frame of mind? bill: we are divided. most major city chiefs share a direction different from elected officials, and respond to the electorate and their communities. as it relates to dealing with guns, chiefs have to travel to paths, advocated for gun laws that are meaningful but recognizing the congress of the united states is not able to take action because they are

basically under the control of the nra, we also have to take other paths within our profession, which is strategic policing that is resulted here in new york city despite the prevalence of guns in the rest of america, guns in the south being brought into the city. gun crime reduction in new york city has been significant over the years. we have strategies to deal with it. i cannot wait for congress. i will be dead and buried before this congress ever does anything meaningful about gun control of deflation. charlie: not specific about gun control, but this is what david brooks has said. generationalca, challenges when the leadership class is dysfunctional. the political parties are divided on racial lines, set to blow up at a moments notice. bill: that is america today. charlie: are you optimistic?

i'm the most optimistic person in america. i get up every morning and say, what a beautiful day. i like a challenge. i see crises as opportunities to address challenges. the crises in america today around issues of race, violence, terrorism, we are going to see more of these in the near term. we have the dual for talent and terrorism. , which happened in dallas. the multiplicity of motivations, there will be more of it, unfortunately. but with that, out of that comes the opportunity to have frank discussions about implicit bias, america, terrorism concerns muslims have about being for blacks are often portrayed because there is crime in black communities, they are all criminals. because muslim does most of the saying oute world,

of the masonic faith, -- islamic faith -- understanding we can create change, i look at my time in a lay -- in l.a. probably one of the most racially divided cities in america, and my greatest satisfaction was an l.a. times editorial talking about when i left l.a., finally, the corner has been turned on race relations in a los angeles. there is the opportunity to accelerate the rate of change, change for the better. i am optimistic about that. i would not state and policing. -- stay in policing, i have been here 45 years, if that was not the chance. and america has changed more rapidly than any other american institution. point to any institution that has changed more in a progressive way than my profession since the 1960's.

charlie: thank you for coming. bill: pleasure to be here as always. charlie: back in a moment, stay with us. ♪

♪ charlie: calvin trillin is here. he's a staff writer at the magazine since 1963. he got started as it journalist

about civil rights in the south. the new book is called "jackson 1964." it is a collection of reporting on race in america. i am pleased to have him back. never a more appropriate than to have you. let's talk about police violence against minorities and at the same time, the assassination of dallas police officers. about athere is a story ,olice shooting of a black man the police would have said a robbery suspect. the black people of seattle thought the white policeman killed a black man. that is written in the 1970's. i think it is not a new situation, but what is new is it ,as brought it to the fore iphone cameras and video from

body mics, these body cameras they have. i think what happened in dallas made me think of how fragile everything is. you take one guy -- because in a way what was happening in dallas was something that was wonderfully american. there were the cops protecting peaceful demonstrators who were demonstrating against the behavior of the cops. that is almost textbook of what free speech and democracy is supposed to be. and one guy can stop it. i think that the difference is what the african-american , and theythinks about thought it then, and they think it now, that there is something

in the culture of police, systemic rather than one guy who got scared rishaad too fast. charlie: and you think that too? . a lot of the police forces are trying to change that. i think it was a normal thing at the beginning. charlie: we say something systemic, what is it? is it raises and you are saying, or simply an absence of suspect -- respect for individuals? color? calvin: it is a matter of, a certain amount of racism. a lot of things -- charlie: is it found in police -- then more significant institutions because of nature of police work and when you are exposed to? calvin: your exposed to criminals by definition. -- you are exposed to criminals by definition. it is around society, and

sometimes it is not obvious. --k at the birth or business berther business where bernie sanders describe that very well. he said, president obama's father was born in kenya and my father was born in poland. nobody has committed to see my britches forget. -- demanded to see my birth certificate. what is that if not underlying racism? happensally, something and as i say in the beginning of the book, often people just take it for granted, take things for granted. it used to be when i was young, it was taken for granted people in the south, white people in the south were white supremacists by virtue of their geography. as will a you know, you are from north carolina, right?

it wasn't true. -- it waser hand taken not as something that was disabling. it was taken as a sort of regional peculiarity that was regrettable, sort of like bragging among texans, something like that. charlie: i want to turn to the book in just a moment. staying with the dallas story, what did you think of the president's words today? calvin: i thought they were like what a president should say. that is the president -- charlie: you said what the president should say. where they inspired, eloquent, put it in the context so it would be more easily a vehicle to move to some kind of action program or solutions? calvin: i am not sure -- charlie: what is the solution? calvin: the dallas police department has --

charlie: the chief was great. calvin: it was interesting when he said all of these problems were put on the police. charlie: they are too much. calvin: it is too much. during the struggle for integration, which ended up not happening basically, people said , it is too much to put on schools. so you have to combine those -- charlie: he said that about the military as well, nationbuilding, everything is required of them. calvin: on the other hand, the armed services are probably the best example of desegregation that we have. charlie: absolutely. calvin: and i think it is simple because they were just told to do it, and they did it. charlie: do you know how long ago that happened? that was during truman's administration. 1840.

-- 1940. truman left in 1952. brown versus board of education was in 1954. calvin: eisenhower said you can legislate morality, but we try to do that with divorce laws and everything like that. you can't legislate morality, but you can legislate behavior. that is what the armed forces did. charlie: this is for decades, 50 years of reporting. have we changed? clearly things are better in part. calvin: things are definitely better. he is right. things are, i mean, when i went to jackson for the 50th commemoration of the freedom rights -- riots, both the police chief and the mayor were african-americans. that would not have happened 20 years ago. obvious things. i would to get my car serviced the other day, and i did not

deal with anybody who was just a regular white person. there were people of color in what sort of run another -- in one sort or another. jobs, things have progressed, say, voting have, laws passed now that are not just a mississippi but pennsylvania that are obviously meant to keep the -- black people from voting. you don't get your house burn but you trying to vote, get standing in a long line asking for identification that you don't have. charlie: what do you think of black lives matter? well, i think black lives matter -- charlie: as a movement. calvin: as an obvious way to go. , and yesnk this issue of course, all lives matter.

but you can't have a moment -- movement saying all lives matter. you have got to have black lives matter because they did not seem to in their view. and the idea they are responsible for this guy is kind of silly. charlie: you would drop back to race, or is this some precipitating thing or moment? other than it is time for another book photo --? calvin: i have been for the last few years visiting and nyu classroom. the professor, robert cohen, used to teach at the university of georgia, and his field is civil rights and race relations. suggested that i put these pieces together for a book. put some of the pieces, a lot more than that. i had never thought of that.

so i did what the professor said. charlie: you wrote a book. calvin: i wrote a book. charlie: good for you and good for us. you also reported on charlene hunter when she was a student at the university of georgia. calvin: right. that was a book length piece. it is not in this book he could i did not want to excerpt it. but as i mentioned in the introduction, there was a moment covering that story that made me think i was finally beginning to understand what was going on. ofrlene was in a dorm full sort of hostile coeds, and we talked quite a bit on the phone. i was in atlanta then for time magazine. and she mentioned once as he had on aback from savanna

train. it was a terrible trip. i said, i thought that was supposed to be a great train. charlie: yeah. calvin: she said, not where we have to sit. and all of my knowledge and experience in the south, all my reading of plessy versus ferguson and the distinction between interstate and intrastate traffic, it was interesting. i was thinking, they can't make her sit back there. i realized, it is not theoretical, it is personal. in for african-americans georgia at that time, it was personal every day. to some extent, it still is. charlie: you also say we have to keep learning lessons about race. calvin: yeah, i would -- charlie: three learning. earning.

re-le: three learning -- arning. things get talked about, and then they sort of receipt. it was a busy time at the university of georgia and in new orleans and atlanta and freedom riots. the two years before i got there, nothing happened. segregationas total , there was not any real push from washington to change it. so yeah, i think that what happens is the question receives into the background -- receipts into the -- recedes into the background, and this is something to clear up. charlie: a lot of journalistic careers were made during the civil rights, covering civil rights in the south. calvin: yeah. charlie: because it was a wonderful story.

and the powerful story. calvin: it had everything. people it had individual , not politicians or movie stars or famous people having to make serious decisions. in a sort ofom safe house with the freedom riders in montgomery when they went on to jackson when a student had to decide if he really wanted to volunteer to be on the first bus or not. atlanta, a sit in in greek diner. it was a wildcat said in. the proprietor had tears in his eyes and he said, i really believe in what you are doing, but if i let you stay here without calling the police, my business is ruined. and my family is without any sort of support.

people had to decide those things. the people i have to say who were deciding for desegregation often did not get through the thing well. either they were too much, run out of town or there was pressure on their family, or should started drinking. charlie: is any part of you optimistic -- i have had people that i respect on the east coast. they think it goes back to slavery. we never got over slavery. calvin: there is a lot to be said for that. we never got over slavery. ,omeone told me the other day totally different context, that he, the idea of keeping a militia, and therefore the right to bear arms, had to deal with

the fear of slave rebellion. a lot goes back to slavery. i think that is separate from being optimistic that we are going to do some thing about it. charlie: i am not suggesting it is that connected. it is a long burden. a long burden of history. calvin: it is a long burden. i am optimistic in the sense that i look back on these years, i look back on particularly being in mississippi or a place like that, and i think, we have come a long way since that. a lot of different ways. we have come a long way, but we have a very long way to go. we have taken two steps forward and one step back. charlie: thank you for coming. the book is called "jackson" as in jackson, mississippi, and

"1964, dispatches from 50 years of reporting on race in america." thank you for joining us, see you next time. ♪

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