new york r studios in city, this is "charlie rose." charlie: we're in cleveland for day three of the republican donald convention, trump was officially nominated last night. theme for tonight's program, earlier this evening, was make america first again. mike pence head lined the program as trump's voice for vice president. rump himself will speak tomorrow evening. joining me now is megan murphy, of ington bureau chief bloomberg. fournier is a political columnist at the national atlantic and jerry side, washington bureau chief at

"wall street journal." let me start with you, where you basically said republicans gathered here for the political unction, they face a heaviest of questions, but the fundamental one is, is donald merely representing the republican party or does he now take ownership of it. it's really a question, not about donald trump but about either behind s him or not. id he win because he's a guy that took advantage of an especially angry political climate? a republican field where the conventional guys sliced each other up and cleared the path? or does he represent a different kind of republican party that was taking shape before he appeared and he just crystallize populace, a little bit working scale, more class, more rural, and anti-establishment republican party. is going to emerge? i don't think we know the answer right now because the republican bety that's here is going to more in his image and likeness.

we'll see what happens in november but it's an open question. what is the republican party today? i think -- it's a little like reagan, changing the republican party by winning in 1980 that may be happening. it may not be happening. i'm not sure we know the answer to that question. putting it into the context of brexit. this among inting the sense of something much more goingnd and disruptive is on in the undercurrents of society and will this be a establishment e is broken, but an establishment the rge and is that animating force that's driving this today. that's what i really question. that we, n a moment even trying to step back, can't actually see the profound that's going on. charlie: i want to mention one point. is here.oger stone sometimes he has donald trump's ear, whatever the relationship this is a war against the establish in.

both parties. republicans and democrats. both parties and out of both parties. i agree completely. i have not thought from the this election this is about donald trump. i thought it was about the disillusioned so with politics, the institutions, and want fundamental change in our lives, how we run our economies and run all of ur institutions, businesses, churches and schools. especially government and politics. eithergoing to happen is donald trump will win and people will be really angry when they changed the country, hasn't lived up to his he's going to lose -- to your point, it's not just the republican party. parties, they are like dinosaurs and the meteor has his. to the it's hit closer republican party but it's shaken them to their knees and we won't until weof this period have huge fundamental reform. both parties, maybe makes one go away and we have a

you this way of governing and running campaigns. about it this way. we're here watching the nomination of a republican is idential candidate who estranged from the chamber of commerce. from the bush family. he's estranged from the romney family. from the governor of ohio where we sit. there is something going on here. coming uctant support from the speaker of the house of the former speaker house, and the majority leader in the senate. >> i don't think we've seen anything quite like that. 1980 when there was a certain anti-establishment tone candidacy.gan he had been governor of the largest state in the country for republican.as a >> 120 years ago, we had a huge conomic transition, huge technological change and created ic shifts that a time when people felt distant from their institutions. they were down on politics. a lot of first term

presidents. congress, and -- >> 1895? 1925.5 to big populace movement that teddy and the other reformers, eventually to roosevelt and wilson. in both the republican and democratic party that realigned our politics. movement?re a if they draw these parallels from what the vote was in brexit even though they weren't it have s -- does significant similarities? >> i think the tenor is very similar. result may or may not be similar. a lot of people, i think, walked nto the ballot booth in the u.k. and voted for brexit thinking they were making a statement, not making a right?on, then they looked up the next morning and said, oh, really? we do have to leave now? thought you were going -- i thought you were going to offset my votes so we wouldn't have to do. in we'll see whether november people who like the

idea that donald trump is shaking up the system can walk into the ballot booth and pull the lever. donald trump thought about this? >> no way. hates this entire process. if it was up to him it would be businessmen, people in the people who have gone through -- and his family. this entire n for process, a process that's encapsulate, shining moment on the hill, make america great and he's just treating it just something he has to get through. > he's an unnatural leader of what was a significant politicsll in the body of america. >> i don't know if i would call him a leader. benefitted from what we're creating. e're just starting to wake up and realize how much power we each have as an individual. more power than at the beginning of humanity. socio-media and other technologies allow us to find

aser people who are as angry we are over some things. harlie: underappreciated fact about the trump movement but also the sanders movement. i think a lot of this is rooted dysfunction of washington, nothing happens. so all because of ideology touch comes along and says i can done.ings he's making an effectiveness argument. sanders movement is rooted in same thing. his supporters say we would like a minimum wage a dollar higher washington can agree on that so we might as well ask for a $15 minimum wage. anything else t done we'll ask for what we want and set our standards there because nothing will happen anyway. by the times.aped these are kids who grew up pushing a button and everything happened immediately. they want that kind of response out of government and they aren't getting it. of other institutions. they watch 3,000 people melt in tower. they see their generation go off

to work. they want purpose, purpose in of their life and they are not seeing any purpose coming out of washington. we can talk about the political parties will change. and about government governorness? >> they are demanding a different kind of system. system they feel more connected to. this movement, you know, this is off, to be the last dying in the future, we will see kind of new types of -- maybe a lot -- around the edges seems rougher but it will be more nature, just because social media inform the way connect.an it's so much more intimate even though you may not be face-to-face. michigan, for t example. why is it, even though everything has gone well in lint it will take months for people to realize their water was being poisoned? the way government works now you make a problem. you study it. work with other agencies. then you decide what the problem will be and then you come to the

people and say, we have a solution for this problem we you about.d every public health test transparent and private transparent? kind of thinking that this generation will bring to government and completely change things.we do >> why donald trump? hy is he -- among all the people in america? >> but he's benefitting the most in the political world. could argue, he's a t dog who caught the bus. we're description a bus and he arrived. not different, i think, than he was 20 years ago. he's had political ambitions for a while. he happened to arrive at a crystallized.is is that right or did he just rent the party? not as profound and he's just an aberration? if it is him it's because he saying the right things at the right time. -- that d ron say, and in fact, this is a profound

change. it's not about renting anything. this is fact, impact on the imts republican and democratic party. >> donald trump is benefiting from the way things have changed. if, at a time like this, had if a man like huey long twitter and the internet. would history have changed? landscape. whole new where not only can a guy like donald trump affect change in a way but each of us can. you now have hundreds of housands of demagogues on twitter. >> you can argue donald trump resources,use he had b, he was -- he understood media. had celebrity, and those enabled him to jump in front of aspired to take advantage of, to identify with, connect with. >> he understands the one thing he understands better than nyone outside is how social media is used.

he saw, it's a trolling system. to insult people. that's what it's used for. he definitely mastered that. about putting out positive messages about your campaign. actually what people like to do is roast and burn each other. he saw that way before we d. he is a ealized media business and he realized he was big business to those media companies. created hink the media donald trump but the media responded to him, it was the insaberablee saw our ppetite for the biggest circus he was bringing to town. she'll very much have to grapple they go when head-to-head. that's not going to stop. what he brings. pick up on your metaphor that he's the dog that caught the bus. with this happening hundreds of populace buses. they are moving out of the across the spectrum people demanding change. onald trump quantity of those buses.

he speaks for a small -- just a and ion of the populace he's speaking to them, they may make i am president. 2008, barack obama caught the bus by promising hope and change be done, too. no one is doing it in this election. if you listen carefully around here this week and listen to trump supporters an the trump campaign, there is the lying hillary and crooked hillary, that's fine. that's your twitter conversation about.ou're talking there are another couple of words that are coming out now hat i think -- it represents their attempt to take advantage of this climate. not just ed, describing her but the whole clinton campaign. that's what they will say. stale old.is the they represent hillary clinton -- her campaign epresents the stale, old politics that we've come to stop and that's the different kind of contrast. >> change is anish every campaign. >> right. >> actually now, this is the

worst time probably in our ifetimes to be running as a status quo candidate. the only thing that's saving illary clinton, two things, one, a democratic party has huge demographic and electoral ollege advantage but the biggest thing is she's rung against donald trump. he's such an imperfect candidate status quo candidate -- you know what will happen? the establishment, including a populace will say, a an never win, the people have the power of the establishment, and somebody will figure this out. and take things over. charlie: explain on that more. >> well, i happen to think that donald trump, you know, probably is not going to beat hillary clinton.nd hillary charlie: because of the demographic advantage? >> and because he's such an advantage. all of those things don't stack up very well compared to her mightis why this election defy the times and you could win.a status quo candidate people aren't going to say i'm

satisfied with the status quo. not talking just about trump people. everybody demanding change and the one politics is institution in their country hasn't been disrupted. look at what's happened in thes 10 years. what happened to the media country, in every institution except government and politics. so it can go one of two ways in the next four, eight, 10, 12 years. have a democrat going who is smoother and more who ble than donald trump, takes over the country in a hughey way, a slicker, long with the internet. or could you have somebody, with barack obamaons, a model, who runs and actually is credible hope and does change things in a positive way a teddy roosevelt. charlie: donald trump doesn't necessarily mean a celebrity. be overwhelmed by celebrity candidates. >> i don't think that's true but here will be a necessity for politicians in the future to

communicate with voters in a different way. 10-point policy papers and it's not staged speeches. it's pot to be more personal. an open k there is question and this goes back to the beginning of our what happens act after a trump loss? does the republican party snap ideologically to where it had been in which case a paul ryan or ted cruz is back in or has it moved past that? i don't think we know the answer to that question, but it's an question because of what we're seeing in cleveland this week and what the party has gone year.gh so far this charlie: big moment for this convention is on thursday night. to do?es trump need >> he needs, i think the challenge for the trump campaign s to make america as comfortable with the donald trump as a president. an you see him being your president? him in the oval office?

right now that's not something people are comfortable enough with to do that. charlie: how he does he do it? >> he has to look presidential. results.ixed but i think he has to look as if he's mastered some of the things does talking about that he have a grasp of politics that his a reasonable guy and not necessarily a hot head. you get a chance -- you get a few big chances to do that, a at your convention where you're accepting the nomination is one of those. >> he's not going to do any of though.hings, his own advisers openly say we're not going to do any policy because it's a campaign and different. that's what i think is so interesting. we keep waiting for him to to change ecting him to be more presidential, stay on message, i don't think he's going to do those things. in his dna? >> it's not in his dna, he's not going to change and he'll keep he does.t the key thing is he may win.

put it, he said i think brexit was a more candidate than donald trump s. i'm not so sure. people want to smash things. very imperfect, receptacle to that but if he wanting gh behind him to do that he could coast him. >> i think he's going to do what erry d. let's assume he doesn't. he comes out, gives a speech, the teleprompter and gives credible speech. since the bar is so low we'll say great speech, he's pivoted changed things but don't forget how much the world has changed since we used terms like pivoted and since we all assume you only have a few moments. back when we were the have a ers you did only few moments. we would only -- let the public three or four on debates, big convention day, when we were really marshalling media, y around, old right? now donald trump will be exposed

to the public all the time, on social media, in the new way we do things, every day, practically all day long, so he put on an act one day, but what is he going to do the next day and the next? going to change himself consistently for the next three months because that what he has to do. no longer being able to change people's minds in one day. they will be looking the next to see if it's real or not. you can't fake your way through. >> these are the other big charlie, three presidential debates with hillary clinton, how does -- gi who can lick a the job >> they may like hillary clinton think sheher but they can handle the job. >> in the last debate, he convinced people -- they were with him as a president. you will remember, that's when -- that's when the was hit and int everything moved his way. charlie: the added advantage, he had been governor for two terms. forget, things have

changed. he could do really good in the debates, really good a orrow but if he acts like rest of the convention -- >> as flawed as he is -- in the poles, and in many ways, it's less than three points, not bad a guy who is so flawed. >> partly because he's a change andidate running in a time of change and partly because he's running against a woman who destroyed her credibility.

charlie: joining me now is roger stone. a republican strategist and long-time friend and adviser to trump. i'll pleased to have him to talk about donned trump and to talk roger stone. welcome. >> great to be here. and ie: how long have you donald trump known each other 1979.have known him since i was given this card file of the friends of ronald and nancy reagan in new york and i went card file and half the people in the card file were dead. he rest of them -- charlie: old friends? . >> the rest were agents and producers but there was a card for roy m. cohen, law.rney at i contacted cohen and i pitched him on why i thought reagan need win and he said, you

donald trump. you need donald and fred trump. do you know donald trump? i said no, i only know who he is. a meeting. donald said give me a pitch. opinion of low jimmy carter. charlie: this was in 1980, 36 ago.s >> yes, sir. that's right. >> 36 years ago, donald trump probably 35, something like that, 34. when was the last time you to him? >> saturday. charlie: what was the conversation? >> i had gone to the roll out of trump-pence in new york. flight to ssed my cleveland to go do that and he was on his game. it was the best speech i have long time.ive in a charlie: which one? >> this is when he talked about, mediaroduced pence to the in new york on a saturday morning. but he gave a shorter version of and then speech first he pivoted to the accomplish it is of mike pence in indiana, and

that he liked pence because he was a job creator. spirits.as in great i mean, i really think he's improved dramatically as a candidate. ou have to remember he's never done this before. there is a difference between being a media personality and for president te of the united states. charlie: being a media helps?ality or actor >> i don't think you could do it if you hadn't been. charlie: that's what ronald did?n >> yes. his larger than life quality, his status is what's drawing enormous crowd. people want to see donald trump. these other guys rung for respect,, with all due they are just conventional politicians. star has a charisma and a quality that, you know, is larger than all of that. bigger than ign is the republican party. much bigger. charlie: he's bigger than the republican party? think the perform agenda that he represents is bigger than the republican party. state of home florida, 325,000 more people voted for donald trump than

mitt romney in the primary four years ago. when you look back and check on are, they are le people who haven't voted in recent years or they are new voters who only registered in i think he has an ability to draw people to the party. he also has the reach to what we used the call the reagan democrats, they aren't reagan democrats any more because that's too distant but they have profile, moderate losing ho are tired of jobs, tired of community no longer being saved, trade deals. reagan people you call democrats and many come from the rest? >> right. would you have called them reagan democrats in the day. and i also think, frankly, that trump has a reach to african-americans, and in the end, to latinos, that's understated. these people -- polls don't show that? >> i don't think he's had a chance to make his economic argument yet. them on to get aspirational ground. charlie: reagan led the conservative movement, which had

by bill buckley and other people. what's the trump movement? >> it's a reform movement. are tired ofle who do-opoly.arty created by een democrats and republicans together and what have they given us? endless war. massive debt and borrowing. >> dysfunction. swindlers s for the on wall street but no jobs for the people who need them and our is expensive. ineffective and incoherent. charlie: that's trump's campaign speech. >> i learned from it him. charlie: all right. today, whenk at him did you first know that he wanted to be president? i first urged him to and or president in 1988, we made an exploratory for ray to new hampshire where he spoke -- year georges is the bush 41 was the nominee? >> right.

ith whom he was never terribly impressed. and a fellow named mike dunbar, portsmouth city council man started the first known draft trump for president committee. with us. charlie: at your instigation? >> i suggested the trip up there and i had friends in the states, so yes. and he got -- as trump would say it was huge. meaning, vice president bush had spoken in the months before to the same chamber of commerce. e had the biggest crowd they had ever hard, about 400. trump had 1,200 people. they had people, you know, outside. do you attribute it to? >> sizzle. the fact that he's a celebrity. than life. charlie: this was before -- "apprentice," but he was still a national figure. charlie: because he wrote books? >> and i think people identified with him. if i was successful that's how i would want to listen. harlie: that failed >> that failed. charlie: did the stream to be president died with it? >> i think he was just toying with it at the time. charlie: toying? >> and he enjoys publicity as you may have noticed, in 2000 it

serious.more the reform party was entitled to funding, on in federal for their nominee. donald trump, being a businessman, loved the idea of opm, running for president with other people's money and ross jesse nd governor ventura, good friend of mine, good friend of donald's, was to run.im he decided, the obstacles are too great for a third party candidate. particularly since the presidential commission on debates is not appointed by the president is not a commission definitely not about debates. charlie: this is 1988? >> 2000. 2000.e: >> three years ago, he considered very seriously romney.ging mitt he was briefly ahead of the pack in the polls. elected not to run. so this has been 28 years in the making, as far as i'm concerned. charlie: he's been thinking about this for a long time and he seemed to se

get serious after 2012. >> yes. harlie: really get serious and say, this is doable. and what advice did you give because at the same time, he began toying with the movement -- many people think been involved in that, you led him to it. >> no that would be inaccurate. no one puts idea or words in donald trump's mouth. it just doesn't work that way. would hope so you would hope he would be listening to you. >> he's not a conventional politician. he doesn't mean listen to advice, and he does consult a broad cross-section of the end of the day, to steal a phrase from george w. bush, there is only trump is not a confection. programmed ipted or or coached. that's why he's done so well, authentic. him as charlie: also, because, a lot of people at this convention are saying he needs the party. it's a movement. but he also needs the party. e needs to reach out to the

people that you know in the republican party, the people manaforte knows and thers, that you guys were together, and now do different things, but that he needs to ryan out and he needs paul and he needs mitch mcconnell and republican chair men in states across this united states and he doesn't need to get into with the governor of ohio. >> well in all honesty the pledger of ohio signed a to endorse the nominee which he has not honored. see econdarily, charlie, i this election very differently than any past election i've been involved in. charlie: in what way? think this election is the leadership of the republican and democratic party which has given of policy failure versus donald trump and everyone else. every republican president, eisenhower, nley, nixon, regular remember, has remade the party in his own shall donald trump. we aren't going to be the wall of et party anymore, party

special interests anymore. we're going to go back being the mainstream party. opposition in this election as far as you're concerned is the establishment in both parties? > yes, this is -- charlie: the republican establishment, mcconnell, and ryan and the rest of them, as establishment of the democratic party as well as the establishment of wall street. think certain sense, i it is an insider-outsider election. donald trump is the nominee outsider and he the voters chose an outsider because they have no more confidence in the career who, as trump always says, all they do is talk and no action. charlie: does he see it as a movement 1234 >> i think he's said that several times. look, i'm just a messenger as he said saturday in new york. i understand this is a reform bigger than the republican party. bigger than both parties. voters are fed up.up. i've been involved in presidential politics. this will be the ninth campaign i've been involved in starting

with richard nixon. through ronald reagan. with senator bob dole, who i commend for being here. really a patriot and party regular. here.e the bushes aren't that's because the bushes are about themselves. they got very wealthy. mitt romney is not here either. >> those fine. those people are discredited. they ad their shot and lost. charlie: george bush 43 is discredited by the american people? because he led us to a war with no purpose. charlie: and 41 is discredited? very on't think he's popular with the american people. he's not ronald reagan. i would int i guess make is, particularly bush the endorsement,ng his is inconsequential. will be a few republicans, who won't vote for donald trump but we'll more than up with them with new voters, millennials and people ho have never been in this process before. charlie: let me talk about donald trump in this election gaining traction. when he talked about immigration, there was also an

he had to what people call natives, an appeal to white supremacists, and they responded to that and early articles pointed that out. how much you knew about that, tell me how much you that.ved of >> sure. i noticed the phenomenon. but as ronald -- disavow why did he them? >> if somebody chooses to support me, that means they are supporting my views. he did say that. >> that doesn't mean i'm supporting their views. charlie: a lot of people want denounce david at the time. >> i think once he figured out him.he was he denounced >> he did not know? >> he's not mail junky like you nd i, charlie, no, i real --udon't think he knew him, david duke has been a phenomenon? it then't think he heard first time. charlie: are you basically white if racist and supremists and others want to support him that's fine with him saying, s basically you're buying me, i'm not buying you, but he's therefore

way?oning in some >> no, he's not responsible for their views. to can't tell people how vote. but you say that as if -- and the term nationalists as pejorative. >> people that were early part him traction in this election. >> look, i think that we're talking about a very small fraction of people. charlie, if you go to a klam meeting tonight the majority of he people there are government informants funded by the f.b.i. an important or significant part of the trump movement. there are always a few cooks out there. can't tell people how to vote but that again means they are supporting trump, not that trump subscribes to their views.

charlie: tell me about his family. >> donald trump was a great man, quiet, thrifty and unassuming, very hard working. charlie: his influence on you? thrift, very definitely. his drive. his stick-to-it-ive-ness. a great man. charlie: donald trump's side goes to manhattan. wasbigger oyster, a bigger world. in 1964, a hundred thousand ollars was like a million dollars today. i foe his sister maryanne trump barry who is great federal judge. one of the best appointments ronald reagan ever made. charlie: children? renaissance woman.

she manages to be a wife, a with the trump organization and run that run her own lines of business, she's fit.dibly physically she's gorgeous, she's always ell dressed, she was on my international best-dressed list this last year which i put out every new year's day. woman.an amazing she manages to balance it all, at the same time, she's normal.ly approachable. charlie: she's closest to him? >> i can't say that. that.ie: i think he said >> they are very private people but all of his children, donny ave one of the best speeches i've seen and i've been in this business 40 years. run ld like donny to against chelsea for congress out there in westchester. charlie: is that likely to hatch? could have a ny career if he wanted one and i think chelsea will do that. do you expectrole to play if trump wins? >> i'm not going to join the government. unconfirmable by the u.s. senate. one man's dirty trick is another participation.

politics is not beanbag. 40 years in the rectum of the two-party system. politics isn't elegant and it isn't pretty. i worked in the u.s. senate and house. every president we've had talks spending being cut. but every dollar in the federal wasteful was put there by someone and they are going to protect i. anyuse he's not beholden to special interest because he can't be bought or bullied, maybe you'll have a president federal ctually cut spending. and then we don't have to talk about cutting social security or really to people who need them. so i'm a keen owner of the system. it's a dirty system. rigged system, trump is right. you've to get dirty to play in i? they y by the rules as exist. 40 years.e that for charlie: you've had a rocky relationship? >> we had a brief period of estrange. . one?ie: only

>> only one. only one i theft campaign, i gave my very first surrogate speech for trump, speaking out for him the very next day. we had -- charlie: why did you leave the campaign? a visionnald trump had for his campaign that was different than mine. charlie: how was that? in favor of an entirely communications-based strategy. traditional ore strategy, one that included polling, an it will particulars, mediaened all paid the traditional tools. he was right, i was wrong. can he be right in a general election? do you think you can't have paid election general because evidently, he's going out trying to raise a lot of money and people say he's going ned a lot of money in paid media and also get out the vote things that other you can't produce just by rallies. >> i think the campaign will be dequate in terms of identifying, and turning out their vote s. but, there is a here, where this race has been royal at key points by events that are beyond anybody's

control, that are far more important than paid television. charlie: they are? sanford c. p bernstein, orlando, nice, a las, all these things have tendency to focus the country on he issues, and they have the inadvertent effect of having helped drive donald trump's message that we need security. need to secure our borders that we're up against an to acable enemy that wants destroy us. charlie: does he remind you of maniforte has paul aid that nixon's speech in 1968, in my miami, is one that they admire, that they have and is in part a guide to what they want to say? yeah, that's a very moving speech. it's the speech -- charlie: what is it about that speech that they like? i think it's probably the close, where he says we can have a job for every american. rebuild our military strength. we can protect our environment.

e can have a new american revolution. that's what we're talking about here. is the can do candidate. he's not a pessimist. deal n optimist and he'll with some -- charlie: it's also about law and order and silent majority? >> yes. those, i think, help sum up the fact that trump is a ragmatic conservative, who is not politically correct and is prepared to take on the country's toughest problems. harlie: another relationship, you and paul maniforte. > yes, we met at the 1970 republican state convention. connecticut is one of the last states in the country that candidates statewide by convention, this is really where maniforte, between that dwrirng republicans got his convention management skills, when i ran for young republican chairman in 1977, paul was my campaign manager. we were together in college republicans, young republicans, 1976.up until that i worked for governor for d reagan, he worked

president gerald ford. afford lost and it became clear that governor reagan would come try again, one of the very first hires was paul manniforte. we worked together in the 1980 campaign, reagan 1984 campaign in 1981.came partners and ie: roger stone manfiforte. 15 minutes one more time. usaid you recommended to donald trump that you hire paul? >> i was one of those who recommended him. paul and donald had a relationship. met during the 15 minutes one more time that lack, manniforte and stone represented trump organization. i represented him on a bunch of building heights, f.a.a., and so on, but they knew other casually but they also had mutual friends beyond

me, so i was among those. charlie: what has he brought to the campaign? >> he's an adult. at he other casually but has de all phases. charlie: cory was not an adult? man.no he was an advance bob halderman without the charge. charm?e: bob had >> that's the point. charlie: i know. apples talking about and oranges. paul manniforte. are of you be you guys the establishment? >> not me. charlie: well -- i supported mitt romney against three years ago. charlie: how well do you think he'll do at this time? interesting. charlie: libertarian candidate along with bill. who are friends of mine and for whom i have high record. four years ago they could get no swhoefr.verage no one was interested. charlie: yeah. >> the majority of voters -- but they had a ticket and they had an esteemed former judge from judge gray. charlie: now they are getting attention because -- > because the media perceives them drawing votes from donald trump. charlie: will they? >> in the end i think what they draw ind is that they

equally from both trump and clinton because the libertarian both a left and a right wing. libertarians and left libertarians. so, thoses voters who favor the legalization of drugs, for will come from the left. maniforte o when paul says to trump, as he does, you presidential, do you agree with him? or do you more or less let trump be trump less than paul? >> there is only one trump. and trump will make those decisions. think that he listens to a broad cross-section. charlie: he does listen? take away the spontaneity and the authenticity be another 'll just boring political figure. maybe there is a better way to things that he's already saying. it's a learning process for him. lashing so all of that republicans and ubs and

knick nightime was beneficial? bush was ed and jed not fit to be president. charlie: that was not his argument. his argument was about energy. had no energy. but trump has an innate ability to figure out what your weakness is. charlie: guess what? lying ted cruz is on the podium this evening. have let him on the podium if it were me. charlie: you were opposed? >> personally. everything you recommend? that's for dorn sure. charlie: what about mike pence? >> first of all in selecting a vice president, you want not going to s upstage you, you don't want someone who will contradict you cabot lodge contradicted nixon. a week after he was selected in in for vice president, chicago, on the very day that nixon is campaigning in atlanta, cabot lodge says the nixon will have a negro it in. which is -- which was the

vernacular. said, no cabinet member will be selected based on the color of their skin. why you example of don't want a running mate who you don't want who makes it up along.go charlie: he won't embarrass donald trump? >> won't embarrass him. but they don't have the same views on trade? >> the vice presidential andidate's job is to support the views of the presidential candidate. george bush was pro-abortion him. ronald reagan selected george bush was against tax cuts when ronald reagan selected him. eight years he was a loyal vice president. charlie: so there you go with the president you most acmire his choice of a future president, you admire a lot less? means ronald e it reagan was a pragmatist. donald trump a pragmatist? that e it's been argued, he operates more by instinct and

intuition than listening to what people have told him and advised him. >> he operates more on instinct focusd of being guided by groups and polls that tell him what to say in order to be popular. i would argue this is one of clinton's greatest problems. everyone she says has been focus group, poll, roundtable, put what you getes and out is mush. it sounds stale and phony because it is. charlie: what role will you be playing in the campaign? >> fot. friend of trump. of line -- charlie: in other words, you'll do whatever he asks? >> i would do anything he asks blooming ke sydney that you wi -- thaul. a.c. people. to all the right i have enormous affection and respect for donald trump. we've been friends for 40 years. charlie: what do you talk about mostly? >> politics. charlie: campaign? say whate call you and do you think i should? >> every once in a while. sometimes i call him with an

idea. i'm a prolific writer of memos and i've been writing memos for and i trump for 40 years know his style. together a w to put brief piece of paper that will inform him without being overpowering. pass him a 40-page white paper on the economy. here's what you said. i think the trump campaign is shortsighted in not encouraging to give to reputable super pacs. >> yes, i do. think donald's aversion to super pacs has been the fact that they are often funded by ancial interests within with agenda. charlie: that and he has ais istory in this campaign of criticizing them saying, you know, almost that they are evil, and this they have bought --iticians >> for that reason. but you can't go into an clinton with hillary who is 45 or $50 million in tied pacs with one arm behind your pack. charlie: and you can't sell fund to a presidential campaign

donaldyou're richer than trump? >> right so i think they are necessary easterly. here is ou have to do say, that your super pac will not take money from lobbyists, -- but from individuals. but i think it's -- if it's an evil. it's a necessary there are reputable super pacs out there and frankly i think ultimately will node their help or they will just get outcommunicated o. its traditional donors are avoiding donned trump? >> yes -- significant significantly to super pacs. >> but at the same time there re new doesn'ters who have nev -- who have never given before who are. some well run, who actually know what they are doing, will raise some money. charlie: what kind of bump do you think will come out of thise election? >> significant. assume he's three to four points behind now. >> he'll be even or three or ahead. ints charlie: is that what you're assuming, three? >> i'm not sure.

i think he could be in a dead heat. i think he's in the margin of error right now, but -- ohio in florida -- >> florida i've seen research hat has him a couple of points ahead. but just picking up some additional republicans, will put in this race, by the way, hillary clinton has the mirror image problem. may be on-board but that doesn't mean all of his supporters are and she has to ncrease her percentage of the vote among democrats in order to be competitive. harlie: the argument goes that he really does have to, as second ush did, in the campaign in 2004, turn out white americans. yes. charlie: all right so let me turn around this. you're being as candid as you can. what do you worry about with respect to to donald trump in this campaign? think great risk is? >> one risk i worry about is the fact that he's taking his life every time he goes out and campaigns o. uworry about assassination? > i myself, just as a

proponent, get 10 to 13 death threats week and i'm not even an official member of his campaign. expressed?w are they >> usually anonymous phone calls with no caller i.d. male voice, just the standard stuff i've reported this to the authorities. there is not much you can do about it. charlie: is donald trump getting -- >> i have to assume if i'm handful he's getting hundreds. this is a polarizing candidacy. polarizing -its a candidacy? >> i'm sure hillary clinton is getting them as well. charlie: so you worry about assassination? >> because i have great affection for him and his family. i have to. what else? >> i think clines will always be etter funded than the trump campaign. and that trump -- charlie: so you worry about money? the well ever have oiled political machine that the clintons have built. n the other hand, i kind of liken this to the american british army.the insurgency?e an

>> yes. they can hit harder and make decisions on a snap basis where her campaign is bound. can't do that yet, we haven't polled it. we haven't focused group it. out for a set it round of meetings. stale and old thinking. charlie: are you the architect this idea of a paco attacking bill clinton's infidelities? wrong withve nothing his infidelity. i believe his assaults of women, is an ent with us sex issue and therefore, as hillary clinton said, these women deserve to be believed. yes. juanita broaddrick, kathleen willie, paula jones, christie, lean wellstone, liz -- charlie: you seem to know them well? book about it, a read my book, clinton's war on women o. uexpect doomed trump to in the s a big issue campaign? >> it's not just bill's assault of women. it's hillary's role in bullying, in intimidating, and threatening these women. read what the women have written themselves.

i believe the women. charlie: and it's a campaign issue that donald trump will make? >> it is not about marital infidelity. it's not about adultery or themselves. i believe the or girlfriends president it's about something far darker, sexual assault and cover-up. charlie: why has it never been proven in court? actually he paid paula jones and another $875,000 to settle did nbc sit on the juanita broaddrick interview for onths and more before they finally aired it and only then after the impeachment vote. day when we only had three television networks suppressing news was pretty easy. today, no news can be suppressed, so these women will have an opportunity. case, it's the court of public opinion that is important. i have no doubt the clintons deny it but let these ladies speak, then the american voters can decide who is telling the truth. this.ie: there is also a brexit vote. >> yes. revolt: that was about a in terms of people who felt there was too much

immigration, who felt like there -- that they were not as their parents had done. that their income was being reduced, rather than enhanced, ho felt like their lives were controlled outside of their own sovereign and from brussels. donald trump looked at that and seemed to identify with it and to hear the began idea of movement. movement.is a >> yeah. donald trump is a nationalist. that's a globalist -- charlie: he's a populace a rejection of globallism. charlie: when you look at him, it is, i just re want one more time, you know, dea is, that you think that he ought to continue doing what he's doing because it was a winning formula, and that becoming more mainstream other than raising to y, might be detrimental him. >> i think this is a movement, i the some are misreading

mood of the voters. are there times when he could ut things slightly differently than he puts them, yes, but -- charlie: what's the best example of that? example, we wept -- he criticized the judge in the trump university case. now, if he said -- charlie: why did it take him so long? everybody instinctively knew that was wrong. >> because he's not politically correct. uknew that was wrong. >> hold on. what he should have said is, the recused because she's a clinton contributor. e should be recused because he's a democrat. the judge should be recused ecause he belongs to a radical hispanic group. the judge should be recused because he has a personal relationship with the plaintiff's lawyer. what he that's not said. but instead he said he was a mess can. i wouldn't have said it that way. say that it way? >> i think he would probably admit that himself at this point. a while but it took him to do it. >> underlying point. instinct?where was his

>> the underlying point is still the same. the judge added bias. ts wasn't a bias he was speaking to. >> if we're going to talk about university scandals where is the of the clinton's scam that they are running at laureate education. if we're goinge, to talk about trump university let's talk about clinton university. think media is terribly biased in 235i6r of clinton? >> obviously not monolithally but overwhelmingly, yes.

♪ >> set to weekend, asian markets look like staffing, putting of mixed earnings and dampening stimulus hopes. gets theh -- starbucks buzz from china, but shares slip anyway as u.s. sales go cold, and donald trump