announcer: from our studios in new york city, this is "charlie rose." charlie: david brooks is here, a columnist for "the new york times." his most recent book "the road , to character" will be released in paperback in september. he has been writing about the presidential election and the unprecedented candidacy of donald trump. 50 republican former national security officials signed a letter warning trump would be the most reckless president in american history. senator susan collins also announced she would not vote for trump. i am pleased to have him here to talk about that and many other things. welcome. david: good to be back at this table.

charlie: good to have you back. you spend your time now trying to make sense of this campaign. what sense have you made of it? david: donald trump has given me a reason to live. [laughter] dovetailing away from politics for a few years but he brings it right back. i spent the first part of this year writing 6 million columns on why he would not get the republican nomination. decided he will be inaugurated, coming up pennsylvania avenue, i will be writing a column somewhere -- so, then the last five months out in america trying to figure out why i got it wrong. charlie: and what did you figure out? david: that there is a lot of dislocation. there is a lot of loss of dignity. there is lots of opiate use. there is so much out there. charlie: so much opiate use to somehow relieve the pain of economic discontent, of broken families. david: everything is indivisible. there is a lot of economic loss, but it is indivisible from a loss of pride. it used to be possible to say --

i may not be the richest or most famous person, but people could count on me. i have dignity, i do my job. charlie: i'm a good father. david: a lot of people have lost that dignity code. and that becomes a crisis of just status and self-worth. and then there is the sense that everyone is giving me the shaft. my employer, the job-training program gave me the shaft. no trust. charlie: everything i depended on has let me down. david: some of it, to a larger degree than i anticipated, a lot of it is the reality tv consumer culture that's undermined the ethos of -- working-class dignity was an ethos that was almost anti-capitalist. you did not have to be the richest and have the most, it was about a code of responsibility. somehow the celebritification of all theo-boo and

reality tv shows, has given the impression if you're going to have dignity, have the celebrities go up really fast. the idea of working your way through and being a respectable member of society, that ethos has gone away. we have got this crisis of status and mixed in with economics, which is mixed in with family breakdown, and really a loss of solidarity and so many people falling through the cracks. charlie: if you are feeling all of that, you are looking for what? david: first of all, you're looking for a sense of tribal identity. and if everybody wants a good book there is a new book called, "hillbilly elegy." his family is from kentucky, scots irish, moved to ohio. he describes the intense tribalism. there are families there, within the family may be totally screwed up. but if anyone outside attacks the family, death to them. violence. that intense sense of tribalism -- we take care of our own.

i had mentioned in a column a couple weeks ago that bruce springsteen has this song called "we take care of our own." in the verses, it sounds patriotic and prideful. in the other part of the song, it sounds almost racist. of our own, but we do not take care of people who are not like our own. a lot of people with this atmosphere of distrust, this atmosphere of crisis, or solidarity, they are pulling in. charlie: they want to be with their own. david: the suspicion is the outsiders are not playing by the rules. the other thing we are saying within the communities is donald trump's voters are making more than $70,000 a year. they are not poor. they are the richer people in poor places. so, a lot of them are saying, i became an accountant. i played by the rules, i paid my mortgage. all these people did not do but we are giving them benefits. i am going to find somebody that is going to fix that problem. the responsible people are not

getting rewarded. we are getting the shaft and everyone else is getting the benefits. charlie: why donald trump? david: a, he appeals to masculinity. he appeals to the sense of closed-ness, the global economy is hostile and the p.c. thing is real, he speaks in a different way. i had a woman, i ran into a woman in western pennsylvania, and she was going to a memorial service for her mom who died. she was relieved she would not have to speak and she said to me, "i'm relieved. we are not word people." so that resonates, in this modern society, information age, it pays to be a word person. if you are, feel you are not one of those people, society is rigged against you. it is supertough. if you find dignity in working with your hands. the status system is rigged against you. the meritocracy is rigged

against you. here comes donald trump who speaks in these short burst sentences, extremely strong, extremely masculine and has contempt for people like me who are word people. so, suddenly -- the other thing, the final thing she said, is they are not naive about who this guy is. they see he shoots his mouth off, he lies. but they say, all things considered, i'm still going to be for this guy, because at least he is change. he understands nation, and a lot of those people do not understand how much pride i get in my own life from being attached to the united states of america. charlie: has he also -- he came to them and said i'm a winner. david: when i see him, i see fear. like the republican speech. a lot of people see optimism, make america great again, success, i'm a winner. and the other thing -- and this, i find with republican

operatives, i see all the candidates having crossed the threshold, basically the moral character, psychology threshold, to do the job of presidency. michael dukakis, walter mondale , they all across the threshold. i see trump as a unique figure who's morally outrageous and outside the threshold. most of the people who support him, they don't see that. they see clinton has pluses and , minuses. trump has pluses and minuses. they are in the same ballpark. charlie: they are all politicians. david: yeah. what i see is a unique figure uniquely unqualified to be president. that is not what they see. frankly, some republican members of congress think that way. what's so funny in the republican convention, you would be in the hallway and run into a senator and they would shuffle over with their embarrassed look and their bodies doing contortions, because they are doing the trump support thing. they always have a defensive preemptive comment. "i think it will work out ok." the subtext is, "please like me." [laughter] they have all of these defense

mechanisms. i think over the last two weeks, donald trump has hollowed out the ground from which they walk. the paul ryans who say i have disgust for trump but i still like trump the person. that position is being destroyed slowly by trump himself. his actions are so outrageous, at some point you have to say no, it is the guy. charlie: are you saying this is a moral choice? for voters? david: i think so. in a recent column, i used psychological language about trump. earlier, i talked about the traits of narcissism and looking at the speech patterns were fascinating to me. and there's the psychological concept called the flight of ideas. a person who suffers from this is related to a manic state. they hear a word, and have an association. compare trump's speech patterns to a robin williams monologue, instead putting in an insult instead of jokes. bing, bing.

i felt a little queasy doing public psychoanalysis of this guy, but that is in part because our language has become so demoralized, it's hard for me to do moral analysis. at root i have a moral objection to the guy. lying that much is wrong. not having basic empathy for mrs. kahn or a baby at a rally , or for anybody is wrong. it's a moral wrong, but we try not to use these moral categories because it seems officious. -- self-righteous. to be honest, my objections are more moral than psychological. charlie: do you think for those of publicans, people have written this, mike morrell said at this table last night he had to speak out because he thought not to speak out was in a sense was not to be as moral as you had to be at this time.

david: i have written this for months, a kind of joe mccarthy moment. charlie: where are you? david: you will be remembered. the sentence i had, if you are not in revolt, you are in cahoots. i do think you have to, for a political office, it a tough call, but i think years hence this will be remembered. and when your grandkids think about you, they'll remember this moment. charlie: does he remind you of anyone? david: the berlusconi references are a bit germaine. the putin references are less germaine. in distinction of putin, putin has a plan and self-discipline and this strategy. -- a strategy. i don't think trump has those things. charlie: other than winning. david: yes. but the berlusconi references are higher. to go into the verbiage, it always comes back to himself.

if he has to utter more than an eight word sentence, it loops back to self. my interpretation of that, we have this debate in the psychological debate -- are narcissists insecure in promoting themselves or super secure? a better distinction are are they fragile or not? you can be high self esteem but externally fragile. extremely fragile. charlie: he is fragile. david: the need to lash out at every instance suggests fragility. it does not suggest security. i once watched your show years ago and you had a bunch of iraq veterans, the only one i know is zach -- at the table. charlie: this was about falluja. david: their voices were so quiet because they had been to -- through something, and they really did not need to prove anything to anybody. and that is the opposite of donald trump, his voice does not have that self-assured quietness

, that i know who i am. charlie: what are the moral failures? david: have you got an hour or two? [laughter] bigotry. bigotry is applying the sins of -- generalizing to the group, the sense of a couple. when he wants to ban all muslims, that is the dictionary definition of that. the lack of empathy. charlie: what if someone said to you, it is an opening bid for him. this is what he knows. a transactional life. everything for him is, i will start here, but i will end up here. that is what i intended to do. don't make a moral judgment of me because of where i start. make a moral judgment where i end. david: that argument is asking us to suspend morality and reduce everything to a cash nexus. charlie: that's how he does see the world, don't you think? i'm asking for insight.

he sees in the world, in a sense, that is the world he has lived. that as what "the art of the deal" is about -- whoever wrote it. david: how he got this way, it is beyond my account. one of the best clinton ads makes clear, he pollutes the moral atmosphere in which we raise our kids. charlie: what does it say to the nation that some electors could to being within two people of the most powerful position, with enormous influence, not only about our lives, but about our future? david: i do think it indicts a crisis of solidarity. important, the distinct, you might have with contempt for trump, versus trump voters. he is the wrong answer to the right question. they are right to want something different. and he has the only thing they have got. charlie: my question, is he the only one could have filled their expectation? was there something about the reality television, that

would become part of the reality people?for so many i grew up in a small town in north carolina, and go back there. some ofse i understand the frustration. it is an area in which the economy has gone other like this. it is gone to asia for textiles , it has gone away because of tobacco. there are people looking for places to find what they believe ought to be what their parents had. david: i think there could have been and will be another possibility. one of the debates we are having is between globalists who want to have multilateral institutions and free trade, and ethnic nationalists like trump. we are having this weird debate between two sides. charlie: the open-close to the? david: but america already solve this problem. we had a strong nationalist, ardently patriotic, based on the idea we are universal country and everyone could come here as long as they assimilated.

alexander hamilton, who my code every time i'm at this table, and theodore roosevelt were fervently patriotic, and touching that pride is so important for the people in north carolina or the people in west virginia, because especially go to these places, and maybe everywhere in america, you cannot go five minutes without talking about the local sports team. there is a lot of collective dignity you get from the pittsburgh pirates or the west virginia team or whatever. the football or college. then there is also the national pride. that had to be played upon. and it has not been. coming up with a new and better form of nationalism, better than trump nationalism, which goes back to theodore roosevelt and new nationalism he was partly , patriotic with a strong sense of masculinity where men had a role to play in society. that too, and encompassing embrace of a lot of people coming here as long as they assimilate and play by the rules, that kind of nationalism

could appeal both to people who want free trade and to people who are hurting in wherever in new mexico. ♪

david: john mccain, in 2000, was almost going to be a teddy roosevelt candidate. rudy giuliani seemed to be. but then, they get in the

clutches of the republican orthodoxy, and they decide we cannot let government do anything because if you -- my shorthand for american politics is that we have one liberal movement, using government to enhance the quality. we have a conservative movement to -- charlie: to enhance inequality. david: the conservative movement to reduce government to enhance more freedom. in american history, there has been a third movement which was hamilton, the whig party, the early republican party up to tr, which was using limited but energetic government to enhance social mobility. to give poor burly -- boys and girls a chance to rise. charlie: that is the part you want to see? david: there are six of us who still believe in that. [laughter] the whig party. for a republican to embrace it, they would have to say we are actually going to use government. we are going to create early childhood programs, create

infrastructure programs, and we are going to use government to help people become better capitalists. but we are not going to interfere as much as the progressives want us to do. when -- that is a big hole waiting to be filled. charlie: in one of the columns you said, the debate of the size and role of government is not as important this time as it is the open or closed nature. david: to trade, to the movement of people, to ideas. the great thing about american nationalism, unlike european nationalism, is that our nationalism was open. we believed that america was the last best hope of earth , precisely because everybody could come here, as long as they signed on to our culture and civilization. we have lost that sense of unifying -- charlie: gave us our innovation, creativity, and the rest of it. our openness to ideas, people, and opportunity. david: yes. and it was a certain mentality that first settlers came from europe, and they saw flocks of geese so big it took 45 minutes to take off. and they saw oysters and clams so big than they had ever seen. and they had two thoughts --

one was that god's plans for humanity would be completed and they would get rich in the process. that created this moral materialism, this energy. and they noticed as the settlers were moving west through ohio and through north carolina, they would find a perfectly good valley, but then he would keep going because they assumed there were something better over the next ridge. there is always just something better. that's what, when people around the world look at america, that is what they look at, that sense of future orientation, seeing the present from the vantage point of the future. charlie: are we today more that way than any other country on earth? david: i still think for all the doom and gloom, i would still want to be us more than anybody else. we have a government problem. what has happened is that politics and leadership became a profession rather than a location. charlie: it did. david: abraham lincoln was, had general mcclellan. and he wanted mcclellan to be a little more aggressive as a general. so he goes to mcclellan's house.

and he waits in the living room. can you imagine the president going to a general's house and sitting in the living room? and the butler says, "general mcclellan will be down in a few minutes." they wait for 45 minutes. and then the butler comes back and says, "general mcclellan has decided to retire and go to bed. he will see you later." can you imagine stiffing the president of the united states in your own house? john hay said, "you must be outraged." lincoln said, "no, i'm just trying to get the job done." to be humble about, in the face, not to put personal pride or ego -- to say, whatever i have to do to get this guy to be a better general i'll do it. that is a vocation. charlie: what i love about lincoln, is he said to mcclellan either you or the army -- i'll get somebody else. david: i've been thinking about what this says about the whole culture and those of us in the elite media. i think we have become over individualized and not as community-oriented as we should be. we have become too utilitarian and not as moral as we should be.

we have become not as spiritual as we should be. so, the culture has sort of shifted away from certain things that really undergird it. charlie: if in fact one of those two candidates would talk about those values, do you think they would hit a resonance? david: totally. i wrote this book that came out about 18 months ago. it was about morality and love and all these mushy things. charlie: is it the one in which you talk about how the eulogy is more important than the resume. david: i talk about value of suffering, turning suffering into something good. i talk a lot about love. on the book tour, sometimes you are brought into a conference well, we may fall into this category, but there's a bunch of middle-aged white guys in boring suits. and they have been talking about third quarter results for the past three days in this conference room. i'm about to walk in there and talk about george eliot's love life, and her deep trauma and tears.

i walk into this audience that is the most emotionally avoidant -- this is not going to go well. but then when you start talking about a life deeply led the way george eliot lived or dorothy day, they lock in, and there's a quality of silence there i'd never heard in my speaking career. and that's because people are so hungry to at least have a forum to think about the things that matter most to them. they know what is important but they do not have the words and no one is talking to them in those terms the way martin luther king used to. so, there's this void in the public space. for politicians, i think obama did as well as could be expected. if our politicians could talk to that, i think there would be a resonance. people are so hungry for uplift, for someone to name something that inspires and uplifts.

clinton unfortunately is so closed and walled off, and trump is his own weird -- charlie: that is part of the reason why michelle obama's speech was the most well-received. david: right. i thought it was the best speech of the two conventions. charlie: it was not political. it was about family, my children. that kind of thing. david: and was also about the moral nature of the universe, the arc of justice -- the arc of history bends toward justice. that evil contains the seeds of its own destruction. there was a profound -- and this comes from martin luther king, a profound optimism that the universe is structured toward the good. and whether it is religious faith or whatever you want to put it, there was an eloquent optimism undergirding her speech , which was uplifting. and suddenly a better reason to look at a public person and feel good about where things were going. there were a lot of good speeches at the democratic convention, cory booker.

he had a good speech. biden's was gorgeous and barack obama's, also. charlie: who meets your test? how does hillary clinton measure against all we talked about at this is table? david: she has all her life been secretive and insular and sometimes in self-destructive ways. there was never an opening of trust. when you cover enough political campaigns, you see some speakers, bill clinton, they fall onto the audience and they are willing to fall onto them. if you fall onto the audience, the audience will hold you up. it is like at a rock concert where the artist falls and the audience will hold them up. charlie: hello, bruce springsteen. david: of course. if you pull back from the audience, they will not. they feel you are pulling back. why are you pulling back? we want to help you here. charlie: i think that is true in life. people who, there is a recognition, a resonance of

people, who in a sense are saying i'm naked and let's be in , this together. david: you and i have messed up. let's do this together. the opening of the shell. the convention speech was such an occasion for that. and everyone on earth was saying do this and still the decision was to be just closed, and boring -- i mean, fine, professional. charlie: better than usual for her. david: but compared to what it could've been -- it is interesting. mitt romney cannot do it either. -- but, ann romney, his wife, totally could. and there is something of people where they just are willing -- charlie: i think that was part of her life experience, battling illness and other things, made her more open or fragile. david: for some people, that humbling experience does create empathy and humility. franklin roosevelt is a classic example of this. it creates this bond and they connect their suffering to a story of larger transcendence. then they really go with an open

heart, expecting the best of people. for some reason, when they think their suffering is illegitimate or they don't turn into a longer redemption narrative, then they close up. charlie: there was an nbc/"wall street journal" poll in which they did not attach donald trump's name but they talked about some of the reasons that, what he is saying in part, removing lots of the negative things we talked about, just saying these are the kinds of things that he is suggesting. and that message went through the roof. but it was a direct connection. so, my question is, how large is that? if that is large enough, it could live. david: or some future version could live. charlie: exactly. your point is somebody has to come on who is better equipped. both morally and otherwise to lead that. this is not the -- david: or if you go back to open politics and closed.

if you took at the closed, progressive version that bernie sanders was associated with and took donald trump's comments about women and bigotry off the table, you could see a lot of the sanders people and a lot of the trump people on the same side. as a coalition, that makes a lot more sense that a lot of other coalitions. that could be a majority coalition. the other thing that is involved and that is a hatred of politics. we have a big, diverse country. there are two ways to govern such a country. part one is through authoritarian -- someone saying this is what we are going to do. and the other is through politics. politics is messy. you never get what you want, it is always compromise, always dirty, ugly, but it is better than authoritarian. but we have now bred a lot of people who are so disgusted by politics -- charlie: but we've seen from "hamilton, musical" that this is not new, in every aspect. it is not new. david: if i had to compare trump to a figure in american history, it might be aaron burr.

charlie: really? david: yes. at the end of his life, he was a big ego guy, and tried to create an empire. he was driven by touchy pride and ego. charlie: in a sense, what you saw is thomas jefferson, the tactics done in his name. the sanders people's had 90% of the democratic party's passion and 95% of the ideas. although joe biden used to say to me and others, you know bernie sanders is saying the , same thing he has been saying for 30 years. david: that is his integrity. if you look at where the democratic party shifted against trade, for the much higher minimum wage, these are, free college tuition -- that is a sanders, those are sanders ideas. charlie: health care. david: health care especially. so the party is steadily moving in that direction, away from the tradition that the clinton family stood for. one of the revelations of the democratic convention for me were how unpleasant the sanders people were. not most of them.

most of them, after hour news hour broadcast i would hang out , in the bar. i call it reporting. [laughter] charlie: i call it martinis. you call it what you want. [laughter] david: combine our pleasure with our profession. and so i ended up talking to a lot of sanders people. and they were all, most of them had been, some of them were occupy wall street. some of them had been other things. but on the floor, there was a certain small percentage, younger, frankly, who were so self-righteous and so unforgiving of opposing views. charlie: and a bit arrogant. david: arrogant, moral preening. i was struck by -- i guess i had seen a little on the campaign trail. there's an absolutist tendency in the democratic party. charlie: it is my way or the highway. david: yeah. charlie: or it is my way or no way. david: another version of this hostility of politics. charlie: so come november, if hillary clinton wins, what kind of government do we have, and

will it be a continuation of the kinds of qualities that she has exhibited so far in terms of -- not being open as we would like to see her, not being able to explain something that is simple and handle something that is simple as the e-mails? doing contortions to try to explain. david: if you remember back long ago, she had a crisis or a scandal involving the rose law firm records. charlie: they showed up in the hallway. david: or some coffee table somewhere. that i can't imagine that will , not be a feature of her white house if she has one because it has been marking her career. charlie: you think, nobody changes at 69 or 70? you are, you have the quality you have the character you have. , david: one would not bet on hope -- bet on it. hope is eternal. any plan in life -- she could change. charlie: i live my life based on that. what is the calculus for your change? david: there are different stages in life.

it is just, i think we think of at 20 life is open, you make all of these commitments. but you know, i'm in my mid 50's, but sadly now i have -- suddenly now i have financial security. i have a career that is stable. and so now is the time i can take the biggest risk in my life. now is the time where i have a little more knowledge, i hope of , who i am and what i'm called to do. charlie: you can be true with yourself. david: be true. and so, i'm weirdly open to anything. i am open to anything, which i think is the right posture for this age. charlie: what is interesting about you said is you became -- once you become strong enough to be more open, truthful, risk-taking, it was strong enough when you think you could handle it -- it was not just some spiritual growth over here. there was when you got strong

enough you think to be able to -- david: this will seem boasty, but when you get strong enough to be emotionally volatile and spiritually open and feel greater pain and greater joy. and so when that starts happening you lose control and , say, where am i going? take me. and so somebody will take you. , so, you are off on a different ride. think whateverou , happens will happen. charlie: thank you for coming. back in a moment. stay with us. ♪

♪ charlie: bonnie raitt is here. the rock & roll hall of fame or and 10 time winner grammy winner has sold 60 million records over a 45 year career. bb king called her the best slide player working today to achieve its named one of rolling stone's greatest singer and greatest guitar players of all time. her latest album "dig in deep" illustrates the balance of consistency and risk-taking that has defined her career. "the new york times" called it a digest of her proven strengths and says, "for every bittersweet ballad, there's a steamrolling groove." i'm pleased to have bonnie raitt back at this table. you know what, 20 years, 1995. bonnie: i know incredible. ,charlie: but how are you? bonnie: i am great.

just getting ready to start the second leg of our couple your -- year-long tour. we are doing our summer outdoor tour starting friday night. charlie: you been doing this for 45 years. bonnie: started in 1970. so even a little bit more. charlie: is it just -- you use the word, and you have talked about it -- gratitude. but it is also the passion for music. bonnie: oh man, i mean that is , what makes being home, in the breaks between the tour, after about a week you go, i miss that. it is not the fan adulation. it is mostly just the playing and the feeling with the hand the songs and the feeling with the audience. there is nothing like it. it is what keeps us on the road. charlie: keeps you young, keeps you everything. bonnie: you can't beat it. charlie: it keeps you alive. bonnie: you can't beat it. bonnie: ♪ all the nuggets of gold on my tongue all the wisdom coming in waves how cool is it that fate

has defined me all alone with something to say? all alone with something to say ♪ charlie: how did you find the blues? bonnie: you know since i was a , little girl when i first heard "blueberry hill" and chuck berry rhythm and blues and blues , sometimes people separate it. for me, soulful music is something i always love. even elvis was funky. i tend to like the motown -- otis redding, reader friendly. i loved that r&b stuff. i just love it. i think most of the world loves american rhythm and blues and jazz. and that just got that beat and

that side to side thing that really puts the roll in rock, , you know what i mean? charlie: i do know what you mean . you once said that your sound your guitar sounds like bacon , smells. bonnie: i was trying to think of something on the spot that was undeniably -- charlie: good. know, in a wayou something that is on the edge of guilty, there's nothing like the way it feels to have that song come out of your amplifier or just within acoustic guitar. but the slide guitar is so expressive. it never stops giving. charlie: bb said, the best. bonnie: i can't believe he would repeat that to journalists. i thanked him for it. charlie if i never got anything , else, i would be able to have that. yeah. charlie: but you you are on the , road, too? bonnie: on the road is the fun part. you know, the making coming up , with album after album of

songs. when you find a great song that really -- i don't write my own stuff but when i find a song that speaks to me and fits me and know a good arrangement in my head and i work with my great band, it is the finding and coming up with the record that is the work part of what i do. and the promotion not my favorite part, but it is important to let the word be out. but the touring part is the fun part. where the payoff is. charlie: where the crowds are. the connection to the audience. bonnie: the thing that happens when you're playing, it is just indescribable. it is like an anointed exultation. you know, it just, you forget all of the worries and the aches and pains. i watched it happen with my dad. i feel the same way. charlie: your dad used to watch my show. yes, he and i used to watch it together. we would talk in different cities and say "you're watching , charlie?" "of course, i'm having cereal and watching charlie." charlie: you have been sober for 30 years. is that hard? bonnie: for me luckily, it was

just a piece of cake. from the first day, i really just got that it was going to do not to do it then rather try to manage how much at when. and you know, there other things -- there are other things you can get addicted to if you are , an addicted kind of person for you work too much, or codependent relationships that you probably should be out of. or food. charlie: did you have some of those? bonnie: part of sobriety is being aware of your tendencies to be, to use things to numb out or to mood shift or to feed that big gaping thing you are missing with something whether it is love or sex or working or e-mail or exercise. i try to keep an eye on it. but the sobriety part, i work at it, but it has really been blessedly easy. charlie: i've never bought this , and i have had these arguments , and i know there are experiences in which people say, if i was drinking, i was a better writer. bonnie: oh, yeah.

look at the work that keith did when he was high. charlie: yeah. bonnie: most of the people i studied in literature in high school were raging alcoholics. you know, with abuse problems. charlie: you believed this? bonnie: well i mean, it came out later i found out, my god, hemingway and those guys, this is alcoholic thinking. once you understand that tendency to be self-aggrandizing and feel like you deserve more , but you also feel like you are worthless. those two things at the same time that drive a lot of people to great art. you know they feel wounded or , they feel more sensitive, or they are seeing things or picking up channels other people don't get. you know, i think that i don't , think anybody regrets the work they did. charlie: you obviously said, most of the music you did was written by someone else. but you i'm surprised by that. , because you've lived life. because you are a woman of feeling and a woman of -- you

have lived life, and you feel life -- bonnie: but you don't have to have written the song to make it yours. charlie: i know that, but the capacity to feel as you do means that you can write those feelings. bonnie: i have written 30 songs and i'm really proud of them. , and i have got more on this latest record than i have in a while. charlie: you mean on this one? bonnie: yeah. there were specific reasons that i wanted to because i was missing -- i wanted to custom write some songs that went with certain fields of music. there's a kick butt political song on there because i had just had enough of of money hijacking democracy. there's some songs about regret, about and sadness, saying , goodbye to love relationships in my family. i am sorry for the one i could not be for you, i am sorry who you could not be for me. it's sad when you look back. there were some things i wanted to say, but "i can't make you love me" and "angel from

montgomery." charlie: you have to sing those. if you don't sing them, they will come up on the staging. bonnie: i picked every song i picked because it resonates with something. it is just as real -- charlie: "i can't make you love me." you have to sing that. bonnie: it is a great gift that they sent that song to me first. charlie: yeah, they did. bonnie: migrate -- charlie: this is for you. bonnie: it was great, and a lot of people have covered it, including a dell who did a great version and prince did a version of it. charlie: but they sent it to you first? bonnie: they did. i cut a song on "nick of time" called "too soon to tell" by one of the co-writers, and he loved the way i sang. that is the song i think the people remember me for the most. charlie: i do, too. bonnie: i'm very proud to have it. charlie: i like "need you tonight." bonnie: that inxs song.

pretty sexy. ♪ because i am not sleeping there's something about you, baby ♪ nice to know you do not have to hang up your spurs because you're getting on, right, charlie? [laughter] charlie: that is what they say. [laughter] charlie: but you did say the closest thing to religion is gratitude. bonnie: for me to me, being , aware of how blessed i am and not focusing in on what is wrong all the time in complaining or whining -- to look around and see how blessed we all are. i'm certainly, you and i have had incredibly blessed careers and lives. but even people scuffling and trying to just put food on the table still feel -- when you quit think of your life how , grateful it is knowing there are people worse off and knowing that there are people fighting illness and heartbreak. we are just so grateful to be able to take this breath.

charlie: you say i hate whining. at the same time, you know a lot of lives because people have every right. this is unfair. bonnie: exactly, exactly. so because i am around so much injustice and suffering and loss, i am so grateful that i am not in that situation. we are put on this earth to do something to help those who are not as lucky. charlie: there was a series of 2009, 2009,e 2004, where you lost mother, father and brother. did that take a toll? bonnie: i knew it was coming, but i did not expect it to be back to back like that. i tried to prepare for it, but to watch people you love suffer and somebody lose who they are, whether it's alzheimer's, which my mom had -- just my dad had a fall, like a lot of older people do. he was so vital and on the road in his 80's, some kind of accident like that. my older brother was -- he broke his ankle and aspirated and the

-- in the hospital and got chemical ammonia. that just started a cycle of months of not being able to recuperate in losing muscle tone all of that, and he did not really get to be john raitt anymore. heartbreaking to watch him. charlie: what was it to be the daughter of john raitt? bonnie: the greatest. i mean, that guy was everything that i am, i owe my parents. they were full of gratitude, full of curiosity, had youthful spirits. you know, avid, acute minds and loved all kinds of music and in the political and quaker. my dad in particular had a love of life and never said a bad thing about anyone. charlie: do you get some of your eco-friendliness from him? bonnie: i would say my mom was the more active involvement the groups and my dad would do , benefits and write checks and talk about it. people did not ask and

-- and back then and interview about what you care about. but they put me on the road to be a safe energy environmentalist and justice and civil rights. they took me to the march on washington. they took me to the rallies. they educated my brother and i in how to be observant. and that was basically a quaker tenet. charlie: what price you think you paid -- bonnie: for being on the road? charlie: for being committed to working the way you are? bonnie: running at a record company and being a captain of your own ship and producing yourself, that kind of stuff can be taxing. but you know, ultimately since the beginning, i have to answer for every single note on the record and every mix and choice of song everything i wear. ,every interview i do. i like to have an understanding between me who ever is talking to me because it will reach a certain level. there is a price to pay for

being in control which means i do not get to have some delegated and spend my time thinking about my next songs. i think because i do not write my own music and i want to have -- be head of my own business that my dad did not have any control over -- i grew up watching have to wait for someone to give him a new show. i thought if i ever do this -- ,charlie: bonnie: it is the control. -- charlie: it is the control. bonnie: i want to be able to pick the ticket prices and who is opening the show. most people in my position do that. but as a woman, i do not think i could do wife and mother. charlie: my philosophy is if you do not look out for yourself, nobody is going to look after you. bonnie: and wife and mother. i know other women much more famous -- angelina jolie, meryl streep -- people that have raised healthy, balanced children, are in long-term relationships which are successful and still are working at a huge level. and doing all the press and promo and pull it off. i do not know how they can do it. charlie: you would have to

manage that. bonnie: but i don't have to take care of kids or be a wife. which, that it was big piece, as you know we are married to our , careers. charlie: i just have not been in a place where, i've been so engaged by living. bonnie: yeah. charlie: both work and play. bonnie: i hear you. i mean, i have i have had a lot , of research in the wrong kinds of relationships. charlie: if you have a bad relationship, why? bonnie: it started out great but like relationships that don't work, whether they are with your colleagues at work or romantic relationships, they start out , and then you grow apart or for whatever reason. a person wasn't who you thought they were. they were not the person they thought they were. charlie: felt like something you did not really -- bonnie: or you just grow apart or issues of trust. each person i have been with long consecutive relationships, , has been the right person for that time. charlie: absolutely. bonnie: my life right now is a

lot more settled. and i have really a great team of people that are my friends. charlie: have you changed musically? bonnie: i hope that i have deepened as a person and is reflected in my choices. but a lot of the choices musically have to do with not wanted to repeat myself with something i have already done. i have to keep layering and keep stretching. but i called my last record "slipstream" because i am not reinventing the wheel. all of us do music that there is , not that many new songs out there. just when you think there is else knew that could,, then you get the alabama shakes or somebody that will blow your mind with somebody completely new. i like to keep my ears open and just keep stretching. so, i'd like to think i'm still growing as a musician. i hope so. charlie: i -- you are. you did say once your music is not for sissies. bonnie: i mean the topics that i choose in my ballads car for -- that is what soul music is

for me. r&b music, when you pick a great torch song or a great ballad it turns the rock over. you look at stuff that people don't want to look at. that is the why you want to reach people on a deeper level. and that's what i meant by -- it is not skipping a stone across the surface of the water. and then, digging deep, you know, those grooves. when you love r&b and rock 'n roll as much as i do and you get that groove going, it is like digging a big trench and sitting in it. it is fantastic. charlie: anybody you want to play with that you have not really, for it of reason? -- for whatever reason? bonnie: there are host of african musicians i've got a -- some celtic musicians like paul brady. there are more world musicians. and you know i would love to do , something with keith richards. we have opened for the stones

and i have done some duets and things, but i think it would be really fun to make music with him. i have a lot of admiration for him. charlie: so do i. the things that i like about him among other things, i have , always been intrigued by the relationship between mick and keith. bonnie: amazing. charlie: whatever it is, whatever the conflict, whatever the tension, whatever the joy, whatever it is it is there, it , is real. it is not taken for -- bonnie: what a gift that his forthrightness in writing that book so eloquently and bob dylan's book. i mean, when elvis costello's book -- these guys are incredible to get inside the machinations -- not the history of how the songs come to be, but they are open about relationships that i would not have the guts to do that. charlie: why not? what do you have to fear? bonnie: i do not want to spend time going over my past. but basically i just i have , spent so much time doing interviews about other people and about other times in my past for documentaries and other

people's books that i feel like i already did it. by the time you do a press junket for each album, you get into the 20th album, enough with the past. let's talk about now in the future. charlie: so what do you hope for the future? bonnie: if we get past november -- charlie: yeah. bonnie: election day is on my birthday. we'll see. in the future, i have another year of touring with this record, and then it'll be fun. the ebb and flow of being home and being on the road has a nice balance and a groove after all these years. i hope one day to be able to travel not professionally, but just go and visit the places in the world. musically, man, there is a lot of people, there is a lot of jazz and blues left. there is a lot of great musical -- charlie: a lot of music to play and listen to. bonnie: i listen to paul simon and jackson browne and so many people that are just growing. charlie: how about new people? bonnie: a lot of new people that are great. brittany howard from alabama shakes is great. there is a group called lake

street jive that i think is great. laura mvula? she is a british artist. i mean there are so much great , new music out there. charlie: this album is called "digging deep." bonnie raitt, if in fact you want to see her she is on tour , somewhere. you can find her somewhere. bonnie: i hope you can make it to come and see our show. i will come to your house and do a private concert. charlie: i would love that. [laughter] charlie: she'll do it. bonnie: i will do it. i will have to be blindfolded and i will not know where it is, but i will just bring my guitar. charlie: that is all you have to bring. you and your guitar. bonnie: i'll walk on the beach with your dogs. charlie: we will do that together. great to see you. thank you for joining us. see you next time. ♪

mark: i'm mark crumpton. you are watching "bloomberg west." let's begin with a check of your first word news. at this hour, and i don't -- an unidentified man is scaling the all glass facade of the trump tower in manhattan. police have lowered scaffolding and broken through windows and ventilation docks -- ducts to reach the man moving laterally using suction cups, ropes and a harness. a justice department report says baltimore police officers routinely discriminate against blacks repeatedly use excessive , force, and are not adequately held accountable for misconduct. >> the problems in baltimore did not happen overnight or appear in a day.