>> i am donny deutsch. >> i am john heilemann. good luck beating this. >> rick perry ready to show off his texas two-step. >> texas two-step. >> texas two-step. ♪ john: on the dance floor

tonight, donald trump's immigration so low and donny and i show off our jazz hands. less thanearsals for a month before donald trump and hillary clinton face-off in their first debate, the ritual of general debate prep. the new york times followed up with a report about how clinton's camp is tapping psychologists and donald trump's ghost writer to get under his skin on stage. has clinton folks raise expectation, joel benenson went bc.msn meanwhile, donald trump is more interested in his instincts.

donald trump opted for a more straightforward discussion of debate topics to express his concern over over preparing. new ceo roger ailes showed up with a black eye. we will have fun with debate prep later in the show. for now, what are the strategic and challenges for preparing for the debate? donny: the great thing about a campaign and the process is we get to see a dress rehearsal. trumpet from the gut. gut.ump from the hillary in the books.

herary's big pro is competency. her big con is she is on trustworthy -- on trustworthy. in the debate, hillary can play to her strengths. trump can't play the outsider in a debate. ,is temperament can be in play so his strengths and weaknesses play to hillary's strength. john: she will prepare for this debate by studying, being the wonk, knowing the policy, but she must try to provoke him. nk him.'t out wo she is going to get under his skin.

he needs to allay the fears that he is not suited for the office. that is harder. being himself is the problem. donny: we know and the psychologists have said that when you go against him as an unsuccessful businessman, not as rich, put pins in them, he reacts. onhave seen donald trump stage to an audience go at hillary clinton. it will be a different thing now. man -- an angry, tall, belligerent man and hillary clinton. i thought you were talking about me. donny: it will play because the suburban women voters -- and watching him, it's one thing to watch them talk out. he has the gloves on and is ready to go. that could backfire. john: what are the three things you think that she could do that

would cause him to blow a gasket? when she repeats his words, it drives him crazy. so what she would do to mock him is stay like this and well, like you said, and that will drive him crazy. i think we will have at historical moment in that debate one way or the other. john: i think she will try to prosecute the case. donny: the last speech he gave will be the tone. person on thatr debate stage, gary johnson needs coalr higher in five selected by the commission on fivedential debates -- polls selected by the

commission on presidential debates. as of today, his campaign says he is only a few states shy of appearing on every ballot. let's say he is in there. who does it help or hurt more? somethingnt to point out about that poll. we have a four-way race. helps trump in or mislead. she has all the experience of having done one-on-one debates. one-on-one debates are different than multicandidate affairs. she went one-on-one with barack obama, bernie sanders. donald trump will have a hard time managing the new debate format. on stage,gary johnson it would allow him to deflect. donny: i agree with you. he is larger than life. when it is three, he becomes

larger than life. he has never gone mano a mano. her playing the role of prosecutor, it's hard to prosecute someone on the witness stand when somebody else is there. you accept that donald trump has some political's hill, what he does not have is policy depth. one on one means more minutes to fill, the deeper the conversation goes, the deeper the conversation goes, the more trouble he is in, because she knows more than he does. donny: the media does lean towards hillary. consciously or subconsciously make it granular, they will not let him off the hook. john: we agree. that is amazing. i never thought we would agree, so let's move on. donald trump is ready at last to make his major immigration policy speech in phoenix arizona

tomorrow. still unclear is what trumps position will be on the 11 million or so undocumented people living in the united states him up at his team has been all over the airways contrasting his immigration plans with those of hillary clinton. one thing we can be sure of is that donald trump will emphasize an idea he has not wavered on, the wall. why? here is kellyanne conway on fox news radio today. wall is very easy for people to understand, physical, tactile, visible. if you build the wall, you are boundaries between us and a country where drugs are flowing over the border, people are coming over the border. we don't know who is living among us. and by the way, it's for their safety as well. john: donald trump is in a pickle on immigration.

is there anything he can say tomorrow night that could get him out of that dilemma? donny: no, he is a sour pickle. there is an irony here. he started out as the outsider. hillary clinton is the typical politician. yet what trump has been doing, particular he on this issue, he keeps slipping up. the average person in this country is not stupid. the latino voter is not stupid. he has shown his cards. it does not matter what he says here it we know how he feels. we know what he believes. the average person knows it is 75 days before the election. he did not just see the light. the very thing that he accuses followingenue, f the polls, losing to the puns. john: kellyanne conway says he will force existing law. thaturse it is the case

barack obama has deported more people than any president in history, undocumented immigrants. the law says those 11 million people, most of them should be deported, right? administration has taken a more humane posture towards that, but if trump was to enforce the law, he has to start deporting people in larger numbers. all is a problem for republicans. everyone is in favor of border security, then what? 11 main people. what are you going to do with them? -- 11 million people. what are you going to do with them? a deportation force is not a solution politically. donny: he has put himself in a corner. people vote for people, not issues. he has shown his lack of conviction here, and that is the tell. the same with the muslim ban.

john: he looks like a politician. donny: 170 policy changes. primary voters will decide today marcor john mccain and rubio get to move on to the general election. we will talk about those races and what they are up against when we come right back. ♪

♪ donny: it is primary election day in arizona and florida, where high profile candidates are trying to keep their jobs and advanced to the general election. marco and debbie wasserman schultz are defending their seats. john mccain is campaigning hard and arizona. mccain's primary

contest sit now and how tough has it been for the senator? been tough and the optics and politics of this campaign season, but polling shows mccain far ahead of his challenger. she is a donald trump supporter. she had served in the state agislature and the physician by profession. mccain is out front, so that creates a challenge on primary day, not wanting voters to sit home because they think it is an easy race. that is true here and in politics and lots of places. arizona gets hot and august, and getting people to the polls, turnout did not look particular strong at a polling place where we stopped, but then you have to factor in early voting. voters have been able to send in their ballots pretty much for

the whole month of august, and that could have a real impact here. when we spoke to mccain, he said he was feeling confident in part because they have had a lot of young supporters trying to get people to the polls, do the phone banks, trying to get them to turn out. same question to you across the country and down in florida, marco rubio has a primary. a lot of people did not know if he would run for reelection. how does that primary stand? it seems pretty safe. >> i did not expect to be covering the senate primary with marco rubio's name on the ballot based on what he told us earlier this year, a litany of reasons why he was not interested in returning to the senate. he did change his mind after the primary did not go his way. he is facing someone with a trump-like profile, a sarasota businessman, but running far behind marco rubio. he is expected to win tonight

and expected to faced patrick murphy. he is expected to win there. rubio is running ahead of donald trump here at the moment, but he has run into a couple of speed bumps when reporters have asked him about some of the things he had to say about donald trump in the primaries. on orrubio has endorsed trump and said floridians should vote for him. the miami herald asked him whether he stood by the statements he made, whether he still believe donald trump is a con man. marco says he stands by everything. it will be interesting to see if he sticks to that line through november. let's take a look at the general election. if john mccain wins today, he will likely face kirkpatrick and november. the latest poll has mccain leading 52% to 39%, so give me a

sense of what you think the challenges are going forth for senator mccain. >> when you talk to his allies, they are concerned about a hillary clinton effect. if she is doing well in arizona, and democrats are trying to target arizona, and they are looking at changing demographics, so with clinton at the top of the ticket, could that help another woman candidate or democrat? has 100% name id, voters will judge him on who he is and who he has been over time , so he's making a personal about the kind of service he has provided to arizona. at the same time, his allies will say donald trump is this unpredictable factor. if he is a drag on republicans in arizona, could that hurt mccain? the math is therefore that to be a problem. he has an advantage in polling. money is not an issue. they also know the democrats

have other high target states where they spend most of their resources before they get to arizona in terms of trying to flip thisenate to state for hillary clinton, so it will be a tough fight. expect mccain to grit it out. he likes a fight. it brings out the old warrior in him. they see ann kirkpatrick as a formidable opponent, someone who has gotten a lot of attention and could be helped by hillary clinton if she does well here, and especially with latino voters, who they are trying to register if they are not already on the rolls. donny: what is the trump strategy now that we moved to a general election? how does he play it to the electorate? john mccaination is will not spend time with donald trump. he has been the nominee of his party. he made a promise to support the nominee of the party, so he will

keep that promise in terms of supporting him him a but it does not mean he has to appear with him or campaign with him. he as gets irritated when asked about donald trump day after day. he knows the questions are coming, but will try to separate himself on issues when necessary. trying toed him about navigate this thing where he does not want to alienate the donald trump voters, does not want to risk his place with the party, needs those voters to turn out, and at the same time knows he is running against a moderate democrat, how do you do that? he goes back to his personal brand and trying to sell that. will there be trumped unity with other elected officials and their is on a? i certainly do not see that now, talkere was some about trump having a unity event here and arizona. i don't see people lining up to do that. donny: thank you. -- k,e come

♪

♪ john: welcome back. a guy who hasby advised mitt romney and other folks, including his dear friend paul ryan. i will ask you in this short ,lock -- we will have you back but i wanted to ask you about pastor martin burns. this blackface cartoon of hillary clinton, defended it, then apologize.

forward like every step is like one, too, sometimes three steps backward. see as something you having a chance of going anywhere good? there are strong conservative arguments for how minorities have been ill-served by democratic and liberal policies, education issues, welfare reform debate, crime and justice issues, but the way to wait those arguments is not to accuse your opponent of being racially prejudice. i strongly disagree with hillary clinton on a range of issues. i do not think she is a big it. this is not the way for donald and his surrogates to do it. the way they are doing it is reinforcing the perceptions that voters have.

donny: i had a thesis in the last segment that voters are not stupid and they hear a enough over time. my feeling is there is nothing he can do with the minority vote at this point. working with mitt romney, was there a certain moment in time it isit is transparent, clear, and you are not moving those needles on some core issues? >> once you are on the eve of labor day, small issues may become a bit big, core issues on the eve of labor day, absolutely not. for this entire campaign, donald trump has made among the centerpieces of his campaign, economic nationalism, as the tribalism, vulgar isolationism. those are the big themes of his campaign. to change the way segments of the electorate perceive those issues now is externally

difficult. in particular, you have no media capacity, no ground capacity, no surrogate operation, so how do you marshal the army you need to convey that? i think it is very difficult. were on the you french riviera on the aegean sea last week -- donny: i wish the audience knew how you mocked him. john: you missed a lot of discussion a last week. all he is trying to do is reassure white, suburban, republican leaning women. is that working? can it work? >> no. i do believe that is what is going on. they are trying to calm down

upper-middle-class whites in the suburbs. spend a year campaigning aggressively with such aggressive rhetoric and dominate the media landscape with one position and then flip it late, whether you're trying to reach minority voters or another segment of the electorate for whom you think it will resonate. donny: donald has been putting out the health conspiracies. does that backfire? see through it. it seems below the belt kung fu fighting or does it start to register? i don't have any numbers on this. >> there is no evidence it is breaking through. if anyone wants to make the argument that a particular candidate is not being totally transparent on record, trump is not the person to prosecute that case.

dayfact that every single someone is making the point that he is still perplexing, still won't release his tax returns. donny: he will never release those. >> what is perplexing that a major nominee is not releasing his taxes. that's amazing. so that he's making that argument seems absurd. donny: i disagree with oma's everything. him release about his tax returns, i agree. john: stick with us. we will continue this conversation right after this break. ♪ . .

dan: senor we are back with who has advised mitt romney and paul ryan and many others. i'm going to do something which

is akin to asking donnie to be humble. he's angry. pretend you are running donald trump's debate prep. what would you do? take it seriously. you think the challenges would be and the strategic objectives? dan: the first thing i would say is don't take the wrong lessons from the primary debates. because what you are about to experience is nothing comparable . he was on a stage with 13 people and while those debates were an hour and half or two hours, the amount of actual times he was on for kim italy, 10, 15, 20 minutes? he had a lot of debate during he had debates when ted cruz and marco rubio were fighting. even -- donny: not debates.

not even the time. dan: i was struck when i was doing debate prep with rubio. even when you would see trump backstage and i was talking to some, he was exhausted. he did not like the debate process that much. he did not like standing up there for hours and dealing with the fatigue associated with that. an 100 million people are watching. it's him against one person. there are no breaks or distractions. hillary clinton has had much more debate experience that's relevant. her debates with bernie sanders are much more similar to what she will be dealing with with trump. her debates with barack obama in 2008, she has experience. do mock debates. just in terms of getting into the rhythm and knowing what it is like. john: he doesn't want to do a

lot of stuff. i have a feeling regardless of what is on the docket, there may just be one debate. if somehow donald trump wins the debate he will say drive safely and if he gets humiliated, he's not going back up there. any thoughts on that? it hasit has -- john: always been my view that everything is up for grabs. were not campaign committed to all three of these debates, so here are some chances for the reason you think that that things could change. to do so wellhave for him to bail. even if he does well, i don't think he does well enough that he says i'm done. this debate, the best thing

he could do is ring most of the republican voters home. romney after the first debate, when you dig down, he just brought in the skeptical republicans. if he does it in the absence of a negative going forward. start to think a little differently. --hink he's more concerned that one ignorant gaffe, that one explosion, that howard dean moment. the absence of a future negative. john: we've talked before about gary johnson. what are the implications? if johnson gets in the debate, it means what were each of them? think he was just problem for trump. that he had a chance to give disaffected voters somewhere to go. but watch the positions and

arguments he has made, there's a lot that could appeal to hillary voters and appeal to bernie sanders voters. i think him being in there is a problem for oath of them. wind are voters that could up going to johnson. if i were either one of them, i would not want him there. donny: if you had the gotcha question for each of the candidates, yet one question for each and put them on the spot. john: that's a really good question. testnk you would want to trump on substance and policy in a way that doesn't feel ridiculous, like asking him to name the capital of some obscure company -- some obscure country somewhere in the world. i'm not sure he could name the prime minister abe written. basic geography -- questions about the constitution.

he has been confused about the number of articles in the constitution. trying to get him to reveal some glaring flaw that anyone should know the answer to. to: i don't think you need do a true gotcha. one of the last debates rubio was then, he started to press trump on policy or on his health care plan and rubio said i will give you my time. planne your health care and he cap referring to the lines. you don't have to do not just, just press him on basic policy and yield your time. donny: i think dissecting the first term obama national security legacy.

i would stick with policy and make it their own. hillary isot against to make her the third term of att many voters think is worst a fail and at best and unsatisfying presidency. she would do. john: you saw that romney struggle up close in 2012 and not being able to solve the deportation question. tomorrow tomp to solve the problem he has between what the electorate wants and what his base demand? don't think much. if you believe he's trying to say something to reassure latino voters as opposed to just white, , ifated, suburban voters

you believe he's trying to reach latino voters, hillary clinton, the dnc, all of these super pacs have a massive amount of resources to remind the electorate that regardless of what trump says, this is what he has been arguing for the past year. we who follow these elections from minute to minute tend to think this speech is important or this appearance is a port -- is important. ohio, are a voter in you paying that much attention to donald trump's immigration speech? what's going to have more of an impact? donald you will see that trump has trafficked in xenophobia rhetoric? -- it'sthink one speech all about math deployment of media and one speech doesn't make a difference. dan senor, thank you for

being on the show. dan balls is up next. if you are watching us in washington, ec, you can listen to us on the radio radio at 99 when one fm. we'll be right back. ♪

>> he didn't change his stance on anything. what he did is what he's done all along. he's speaking with the people, not lecturing them. he surveyed the room and asked what are your thoughts on this i want to take into account what do people say, unlike our opponent will take into account only those who contribute millions and millions of dollars to her campaign. he's having a conversation with the people of this country.

trumpthat was donald junior talking about his father's immigration plan on cnn. balls are in our court, so we are joined by dan balls from the "washington post post.""washington trump and immigration get out of the political the goal currently finds himself in? dan: not easily. he's got to try to do two things. he's got to reassure the people who have cheered him for his very hard line anti-immigration stands from the beginning of the campaign. --s got to reassure him reassure them that he hasn't moved and he has to convince people who thinks he's been too harsh that he's more open to some softening. he will use that word, but

that's what he will try to convey. that is not an easy path to walk. i think he's got his work cut out for him. donny: walk that tight rope for me. what do you do with that? think first of all, he will concentrate on enforcing the law in as tough away as he can while he will be somewhat the 11what you do about million. i'm reminded of some of the things he's said over the past two days that sound very much like what rick perry used to say ,onths and months ago which is you deal with the border, solve the border problem and don't worry about anything else until you've done that. that doesn't mean you're not planning to deport criminals were violent criminals who are here illegally, but in one way

or another, you don't make a priority a deportation. it was what donald trump said was a key part of his policy. we were talking about pastor mark burns and his tweet that showed hillary clinton in blackface. when you have surrogates like he just give up on this or is it phil appreciated that he's at least going to try, go to detroit and give a speech to an actual african-american audience and try to talk to the community? : i is ok if you want to disavow some of your surrogates and i think the trump campaign should look at that. if we are talking about african-americans specifically, i'm hard pressed to find how

donald trump can make inroads. credit wheregive credit is due. i've been saying for weeks that if donald trump once you reach out to african-american voters, he needs to talk to african-american voters and should probably go to an african-american church. i wonder what we're going to hear donald trump say? we haven't heard many policy i'm interestednd in hearing what he's going to say in terms of immigration. rope walking this tight that do african-american voters believe this to that? i don't think so. ,e still running the same race i just think he has different shoes. next week, he could be hitting up a barbershop that he still rhetoricame divisive and we haven't seen any real policy prescriptions. there were some

surprising numbers concerning independent voters. hillary's lead has gone from 8% to 4%. he's probably starting to sway some of the sanders people, which is astounding to me. just in terms of your ear to the ground, are you hearing about anybody living trump a second look? simone: i hear about people giving trump a second look as far as what he has done recently. this pivot donald trump has made is not a pivot to get african-american or latino voters. this is a pivot to get voters that were leaning republican or that were maybe really moderate them across that have said now i can't possibly vote for someone who is fueling such divisive rhetoric. i think that's what you are seeing in these numbers, but when we get to the debate,

that's where the rubber meets the road and that's -- we have been tuned in for a long time but lots of the american people haven't. is he going to go out there and be himself or is he going to be the new polished up? i think that will make it difference in what these numbers look like. the new york times editorial board comes out with a tough editorial but the clinton foundation saying they've got to cut ties in a significant way and stop taking corporate and foreign donations right now. what do you think of that and where do you think the story goes? i don't think it will sway the thinking of the people at the clinton foundation. i think they're feeling is you can't cut something like that off immediately. .here has to be a transition

whether it's politically smart or not is another question. i don't know if they think that's possible or even advisable. but i think that editorial was another flashing light for the clinton operation that they have to take even more seriously. there's a kind of building support or consensus that they have to go farther than they have announced they are willing to go. i think this is going to be a continuing issue. john: a big supporter of bernie sanders has come out and says hillary clinton has to break ties with the foundation. do you sense that there's some drift in that direction?

simone: nobody likes a distraction. we want to be talking about the issues and the conversation around the foundation has become a distraction to the election. is we wouldtion like to get back to talking about the issues. .ots of things at play i do think the clinton campaign realizes that it has become a distraction and the clinton foundation, that's why you saw the foundation saying this new set of guidelines, if the secretary is to become president, they are going to change the name and i don't think they have to cut ties right now. the clinton foundation does really great work that no one else is doing, not only in this country, but around the globe. we need that work to continue. the people who donate to the

clinton foundation, it has become a distraction and we are trying to tamp that down. who should play donald trump in debate prep? simone: i don't know. mark cuban said he wanted the job, so give it to him. dan: i think you have to go with bob barnett. he's a veteran debate proper. john: thank you for coming on the show. coming up, what happens when donnie impersonate the donald? we will find out in a mock debate when we come back. ♪

donny: as reports emerge on how

the candidates are paring for debates, hillary clinton is considering an interesting cast to play donald trump. i would like to make a plea -- pick me. i'm from queens, i've known trump for years and i'm a natural self motor. john: also that hair. donny: you might be reluctant to take me seriously so i asked john to stage a mock debate with me. he will play the part of hillary and i will be mr. trump and our colleague, joe weisenthal offered to be the moderator. joe: please welcome hillary clinton and donald trump. [applause] your hands really are a lot smaller than average. joe: the biggest threat to the next president is likely to be isis. donald trump had you plan to deal with isis?

donny: while mrs. clinton was touching around with the e-mails and lying down because she's got no stamina, i was making my isis plan and we are going to bomb every isis icer there is. joe: secretary clinton, your response? the: less discussion question of whether you know what isis is. what do those letters stand for? donny: our president then know because he always teams to throw in i saw -- isil. john: you accuse me of having profiteer from my speeches and foundations. i think the american people know we have saved millions of lives, we worked on aids and malaria. if i happen to get a little rich in the process, at least i'm actually rich. thate various countries border france, which is the greatest threat to american security. .onny: this is not a quiz

i'm not here to answer quizzes. we sailed them out in world war ii and we will do it again if we have to. joe: i would like to ask another question. hillary clinton has led she asked that she lacked the temperament to be president. how do you respond to that accusation? donny: we've heard a lot about my temperament and the keyword is tempered. when i think about the clinton foundation, my temper rises. when i think about the clinton foundation, my temper goes through the roof. are your issues with article 12 of the constitution? donny: it's a beautiful article. it's a beautiful article and everyone knows how much i love the constitution. speaking of constitution, do you have the constitution to stand up for 90 minutes because we heard something about your health issues. john: there is no article 12 of

the constitution. you morons. [crosstalk] >> i have your mcnuggets. on behalf of john and myself, we apologize. ♪

bloomberg politics for all the latest. until tomorrow, we say sayonara. ♪

mark: i'm mark crumpton. you are watching "number west." fbi director james comey told a cyber security conference today that the bureau is trying to determine if hackers connected to a foreign government want to

influence u.s. elections this fall. >> those kinds of things are things that we take seriously and work very hard to understand so we can equip the rest of our government with options how to deal with it. mark: his remarks came as senate minority leader harry reid asked the fbi to investigate the threat of russian tampering with the u.s. elections. spokesman for islamic state is dead. he was reportedly killed while surveying the groups defenses in aleppo, syria. if then lawmakers says u.k. wants the advantages of the european union's single market, it will have to pay into the eu's budget. non-memberway is a but contributes to the blocks finances in return for market access.