mark: i'm mark halperin. john: and i'm john heilemann. "with all due respect" to gary johnson, perhaps your question would be more appropriate in another setting. >> this was the end of the silk road. gary: what is aleppo? >> you are getting -- kidding. gary: no. ♪ john: we will take latebreaking staples for --swing state polls for 7600, alex.

in florida, donald trump and hillary clinton are tied. clinton is up by four points in north carolina. points is also up by 5 in pennsylvania. finally donald trump up by 1 point in ohio. we will talk more about that later. first let's talk about an intrepid story. last night clinton and trump went back to back at nbc's commander in chief forum. it was a daily double letdown. when it was over, trump was randomly -- was roundly hammered on substance, while clinton on style. she was at times seeming perturbed about questions about her controversial e-mail practices and handling of classified information. 12 hours after the forum, she held her third media

availability in 3 days my tarmac in white plains, new york before heading off to charlotte, north carolina. cure her reaction to how donald trump performed on the intrepid. mrs. clinton: when asked how he would stop global terrorism, his answer was simply "take the oil?" the u.s. does not invade other countries to plunder and pillage. we don't send our brave men and women around the world to steal oil. and that's not even getting into the uncertainty of what it would involve. -- absurdity of what it would involved. mass infrastructure, large numbers of troops, many years on the ground. of course trump has not thought through any of. john: she went to north carolina and made some the same points. is hillary clinton on offense or defense? even trump advisors have

said in the last day, even when trump raises his support for putin, that think it's a mistake. i think she wants to go on offense. it's just a reality of presidential campaign coverage and politics. so much is driven by the framing of the polls. four's path involves these states. i talked about advisors about their view of the race. both of them said, winning these four states is the way. the next likely option is a big drop-off. the fact that he's competitive in these four is huge. she is on offense after the forum, she feels. alone the putin thing does not help him. the frame of the day will be, this is a tight race, benji is going to do everything she can to fight him off. -- and she is going to do

everything she can to do to fight them off. john: trump as a path to 270, but it doesn't really go anywhere besides those states. looking at all the other texas,, she -- arizona, all these other places where she is on offense. it comes back to the intrepid. last night she seemed defensive end annoyed. mark: for sure. john: when she was questioned by matt lauer about her e-mail practices. i think she should have wanted it to be one hour so she could talk more about substance. she think she has the upper hand. we will talk about trump. mark: trump was for a lot of things. critics said he had a lack of substance. -- was panned for a lot of things. he said that america's generals were "reduced to rubble."

he was criticized for mischaracterizing his best statements about whether he was for or against the iraq invasion. was what he said today. he reports, you dislike -- you decide. mr. trump: iraq is one of the biggest differences in this race. i opposed going in. and i suppose it despite the media stating no, yes, no. i opposed going in. and i opposed the recklessly in which hillary clinton took us out, along with president obama. letting isis phil that big terrible void. but i was opposed to the war from the beginnings long after my interview with howard stern. mark: as we said trump was criticized for his praise of vladimir putin.

those remarks were criticized by the republican head of the homeland security committee and the speaker of the house paul ryan. s runningnn, trump' make mike pence came to his defense. >> i think it's been arguable vladimir putin has been a stronger leader in his country than barack obama has in his country. mark: trump was in cleveland look to making a speech about education. his campaign was dealing with new of a big staff shakeup in florida, and the report in the washington post there were mass departures from his policy shop in washington, d.c. lots going on in trump world. if his performance tracks how he was last night, with some areas of criticism and stylistic flourish, will not be enough to win the debate? -- will that be enough to win

the debate? john: the fact that he will be in a direct confrontation with hillary clinton will make it harder for him to do what he did last night, to bluster his way through and not go long on anything. iis thing on the iraq war, know we have a lot to talk about -- he's lying. there are three separate instances before the war where he did not at all of those it. the public record of him wassing it, the first time when the war was going on after one year. when he lies in a presidential debate like that, there is a high risk to fact check him. mark: every day closed to the general election he is being held more accountable for things that are not true or are inconsistent. he got a taste of it last night. he won the coin flip so he got to the second. it will be harder. if she shows up at the same

debate and tries to hold him accountable with that demeanor rather than a light touch, he could get through the first debate winning with that level of performance. i will say again, in the states that he has to win, there are a plurality of voters that don't mind trump's totality. -- and i wast is andical of her on style -- if she performs that way in the debate, it could allow him to skate through. there is no one around trump that i know that thinks it is smart to keep raising vladimir putin. mark: mike pence backed him up. john: he is the only one. i think it is not to do that. -- it is nuts to do that. had barack obama said anything

like that in 2008, what would the republicans have said? we have a new poll that looks at likely voters who do not hold college degrees. in fact, they hold high school diplomas at best. when we look at that group we see hillary clinton is beating donald trump in a two-way race 47-42%. broken down by race, without a huge gap between white and nonwhite voters. all with no more than a high school degree. among white voters, trump beats clinton. looking at nonwhite voters, clinton dominates. we asked respondents about their copper scrap that their top concerns. nonwhite voters mentioned trump's comments about women. white voters mentioned clinton's

e-mail troubles. mark: these are hitting on the things that our polls suggest voters have concerns about. turnout is in a close race. game matters, getting in the early vote matters. creating passion for your candidate and against the other side all matter. fees campaigns -- these campaigns see that. john: seems that ground game is going to matter a lot. we know that trumpet does wit -- that trump does better with lowe high school and educated voters. the real issue is that those kind of voters are the kind who requires effort to persuade them. she will be hugely tested whether she can turn out those members of the obama coalition. mark: the republican national committee officials say trump may have gotten a late start in

the grand game, but we have the best ground game in the history of politics. john: and history of politics? mark: that is what they say. john: living around for the 2008 election? -- where they around? mark: i could make a difference in the states that were going to decide this. trump has a coalition that could get him a plurality. she is the favorite, question, but he has a coalition. so what is a level? -- is aleppo? we are going to tell you all about it when we come back.

mark: it has been a rough day for the libertarian candidate for president gary johnson because of an answer he gave on

morning joe on msnbc about aleppo. here is a quick guide to the last 24 hours what happened like for governor johnson. >> in the george washington university battleground survey, gary johnson has 11% support among likely voters. have you look at these polls? 42 states have 10% plus. >> mitt romney tweeted "i hope to get to see former gop governors terry johnson and bill wells on the debate stage this fall." >> we need to join arms with china to deal with north korea. >> what would you do if elected about aleppo? >> and what is aleppo? >> you are kidding. >> no. >> claim just wondering how you-- >> no no. i am frustrated with myself. i feel horrible. >> what do you think will happen. ? >> that is just part of the

process. >> in terms of the president of the united states -- if you don't know what aleppo is, you can't be president. >> gary johnson appears surprised by the question, what is aleppo. >> well, you can look on map and find aleppo. >> did you have a brain freeze moment? >> no excuse. i was thinking in terms of acronym, aleppo. mark: when governor johnson you and i were pretty bullish on the moment of this campaign. the worst moment and the most attention after the day has passed. where do you think he stands? john: as we saw with him wells has a much firmer grasp on foreign policy lannett gary johnson does. this is a key moment for him. this will gain a lot of attention at the wrong time.

i don't know if it strictly speaking is disqualifying, because donald trump has done 10-15 things that are worse. you can only say the obvious thing -- it's not great. mark: i think that he is handling it okay. i think we need to hear more from governor wells and see how he buttresses. i think this morning after the convention is not so much that he is dead. i don't think that he is. we have two candidates that have gone through a lot worse in their own ways. i think he can come back. but he needed to get momentum into the first debate, and this is not great for momentum. and he needs to get better known.that he's better known now. reasonably on the broadcast news, and he will be talked about in social media more than ever before. he has to figure out a way to parlay it into positive attention. john: given the way that many millions of americans feel about

all german hillary clinton, if they see this and it makes them explore gary johnson more, you know, i'm willing to forgive that for the fact that he's not one of the other two. mark: when we come back, legendary political strategist mary matalin joins us right here after this. ♪

john: joining this is everyone's favorite republican turned libertarian, mary matalin. we have a history with you and your libertarianism. it seems appropriate that we ask about your party's candidate nominate, gary johnson, had a bit of a moment. when you think about the question mark and i were thinking about -- dead, or can he survive?

mary: no, the problem is that he's not really a libertarian. she's not really attracted towards -- he's not really attractive towards real libertarians. the aleppo issue is going to get him, and like you said, everyone is going to be looking at him now. for the major two candidates, over 50% of each of their support is due to not liking the other guy. so hillary supporters don't like trump. in his case, his supporters predicated on that they don't like either of the others. but if you are a libertarian, he's not-- john: in what way is he not a libertarian? mary: he is the political equivalent of a cafeteria catholic. religious liberty is the essence of liberty, at least american liberty. he's not on point on things. she is a lovely fellow, and i hope he gets to the debates. but i would rather that austin pierce be the candidate.

mark: i don't want to oversupply what being a libertarian means, but he's for lower government, less taxes on the physical side, s and lesshe fiscal governmentide, in terms of social issues. do you mean he doesn't have it in his gut? mary: he is relative to the one party, the two parties representing the one interest. yes, he is more libertarian than that. but he's not a clarion call for classical liberalism or classical libertarianism. mark: but is not an intellectual-- mary: you are making me say something mean about him. mark: i agree that he has positions that are off, and that he's not a member of the party for 48 minutes. i just don't quite get what you are saying about him. mary: it is extensively, n -- extensively no apparent libertarian principles to

portrayed, policy ---- to foreign trade, polic. polls have shown trump with a striking distance to reach. do you think he has a 20% chance of winning? mary: i think he has a 100% chance of winning. mark: you are positive? closing, race is despite mrs. clinton's dumping hundreds of millions of dollars. mark: you think hillary clinton has a 0% chance of winning? mary: was just say 10-15%. i just think he's going to win. whether he has a turnout operation, and the rnc does, and those senate race spaces are turning out every rock. north

he is in the margin of error in about 10 of these states. between the rnc and senate races and down ballot races pushing him, that will be his turn out operation. mark: i guess we should spend the rest of the time talking about the truck cabinet. john: really, 90%a chance of winning. mary: as you know i don't have a puppy in this race. not aot really my guy, conservative or republican, and he's not a progressive. what he is is that he has an action for bias. with conservatives and republicans have been, james 217, they have been faced with no action. -- faith with no action. he is a man of action i guess. john: mark have talked about this in the last few days -- can you talk about what possible political rationale donald trump has for speaking so kindly about vladimir putin over and over?

can, although i don't confer the campaign. although i have speaking to llyanne conway. she is brilliant. i think she has escalated his maturation rate, wouldn't you agree? i think he thinks he's attacking obama. you asked what the rationale might be. i think he sees everything askew. john: cap is a psychological rationale, not a political one. there's no one around him except mike pence who thinks it's in his political interest to speak well of vladimir putin. right, i don't disagree with that. we think like we think. we are not thinking like the people that are can end up voting for him. they think we are all nuts in that the essence of what he is

saying is true. although they are two completely different systems. it is true that putin has a better and stronger leader than obama is in this country. i would not say that, i think it's a distraction. but apparently instructions for trump have had no negative. mark: you think he has a better chance than the jump campaign seems to. do you think he's going to win michigan? mary: not necessarily. mark: wisconsin? mary: i think he's been a be competitive in the states he needs to be competitive in. with senate race is pushing him up -- florida, ohio, possibly pennsylvania. mark: there is almost no chance of-- andays he is a 90% chance, then you say maybe he will win pennsylvania. mary: i'm looking at fundamentals.

even though i think-- mark: there nothing more fundamental than the electoral college. mary: is something we don't understand. in the same way that we made fun of the voters at rallies who turned out. mark: we never made fun of them. mary: did you not? well good for you. the mechanics have been to the rnc level. but she does not have something that he has, which is enthusiasm. so yes, i will say pennsylvania then. new mexico, nevada, iowa. mark: you think is going to win new mexico? mary: he has been when states like that where he is in the margin of error currently. not in outlier polls, but these polls too. john: i can't imagine the kind of fights you're getting with your husband.

mary: who? john: to only what you would advise trump to do for this debate with hillary clinton. mary: talk to roger ailes. [laughter] i would not try to be anything different than what he is. i would have a couple things up my sleeve. what he has been right on is the large, large stuff. on immigration, economics, and for national security. john: we have to leave it there. mary matalin, thank you for coming on to the show. inside views from the campaign trail right after this. ♪

mark: joining us to talk about the campaign trail through campaign reporters through their respective candidates every step

of the way, in charlotte north carolina, msnbc political correspondent casey hunt, and in ohio covering donald trump. your candidate seems to be on a humanizing tour. we have seen this before, candidates trying to show more of themselves. about why you think she is doing it. kasie: there are a few pieces of evidence that i think points to this. first of all the press conferences. we talked about her unwillingness to talk to the reporters that covered her most of this campaign. that has changed dramatically in the last week. all three times she's traveled with her press corps on the new plane, she talked to reporters, taking questions. and of course yesterday she talked to matt lauer. it seems getting more personal and some of the interviews. she talked to humans of new york, you might have seen it.

they interview normal new yorkers on the street. and they talked to hillary clinton. she told them a personal story about being harassed as a woman in a law school exam. that i said, hey -- the gey said, hey, you are taking my spot, on them to be sent to vietnam. she said she learned early on not to show her a lotion and that it made her seem -- her emotions and that it made her seem aloof. it's not just another swing back. in the swing we talked about how we would -- how she would potentially have trouble running against donald trump. democrats were doing worried that she was going to be coasting and that these polls are tightening. it seems they are making a strategic shift to counteract that. john: we saw donald trump talk about his position on the iraq war, say once again something that seems to run squarely in

the face of all available evidence. why does he keep misrepresenting his position on the war? >> because he can't say that he was wrong on something, or that he may have made a mistake. we've never heard donald trump do that. he's expressed regret for unnamed offenses over the things he said, but we've never seen him talk about mistakes he might have made in the past. it seems like the position he's taking out by saying he has judgment that he would not have gone into iraq, it seems like he's sticking out this supreme judgment position in a way that doesn't allow him to say that she did not have the best judgment in 2003. -- he did not have the best judgment in 2003. he's sort of doing it, saying he was a private person, was a businessman, why were they even asking me about it?

what is the same time he's claiming he has the judgment now when he did not necessarily have any real intelligence information until these past two briefings. tsipras saying that now he would have known all along. this is part of donald trump selling himself as part of someone that is fit to be commander-in-chief. someone that won't get us into more complex overseas. that won't allow any sort of vacuum to be filled by a terrorist organization. it is problematic because the evidence does not support that.donald trump in 2002 expressed support for the iraq invasion on howard stern. today he talked about a 2003 interview with neil caputo, basically a word salad of him saying, maybe you should go in, maybe you shouldn't, wait for the u.n., it doesn't matter, i'm thinking about the economy -- that's anything but a strong disapproval of the invasion. she was ultimately 2004 esquire interview, saying that -- he was

talking about a 2004 esquire interview, saying that he was against it. but that came out a here and a half after the invasion already began. in fact esquire magazine is pushing back, posting an addendum to their story, an editor's note that said that donald trump did not express that he was against the war in 2003, but rather this was a 2004 interview after the invasion. mark: both candidates played to their worst types last night in some ways. hillary clinton was defensive and did not seem particularly warm. trump, we talked about all his problems. why do you think that is, and what is the campaign say? ing? kasie: privately i think the campaign is frustrated so much time was spent on e-mails in particular.

they are raising questions about whether or not that speaks to the qualifications to be commander-in-chief. that said, i think they feel like the pressure has been taken off of them. she successfully got back on message this morning with that press conference. because she held so few of them, it is a mechanism that is working to her advantage. but the reality is this also gave them an opportunity to see where they need to practice for the first debate. it was pretty clear she was personally frustrated with what was going on from the get-go. that something that i have another couple weeks to practice before they face donald trump. mark: katy? katy: think the campaign is at least citing they felt positively about donald trump's performance.

donald trump tweeting that hillary clinton did a terrible job. taking a look at donald trump off prompter and on prompter, they are two different candidates. on prompter, he is very careful about his words. she isn't so outrageous. -- he isn't so outrages. when he goes off prompter, that praise your hear him the vladimir putin or talk about our generals being reduced to to rubble. these are not the themes we are hearing on the campaign trail while he is on trial of hunter. --on teleprompter. the campaign is trying to keep him on message. the problem is that when donald trump is off script is liable to say these sort of outrageous things. going forward will be a concern is how he will do in the debates. what donald trump will show up to the debates. he has said he has not done

traditional debate prep. i am curious to find out. the campaign is not telling us what he's doing and what they are doing to keep him on message, and stop him from saying things that might bury an otherwise good performance. kasie hunt,ur, thank you both. coming up, our interview with gary johnson about personal stuff. washington dc in you can listen to us on .1 fm in the -- 99 nation's capital. we will be right back. ♪

john: this morning gary johnson

embarrassed himself to his response when questioned about aleppo, and for the first and possibly last time in his campaign. everyone talked about talking about the libertarian position on many. yesterday we spent time with him and his running mate bill wells. since many do not know about them personally, we wanted to give them a chance to show, who are these dudes?we started at the top of the ticket , asking gary johnson to start with his family. gary: my kids have been textbook. they are wonderful. mark: how old are they? gary: 34 and 37. mark: where do they live? gary: denver and new mexico. more than anything i enjoy being with them. i am a grandfather also. my parents are still alive. they live in corvallis, new mexico. my father was a world war ii veteran, saving private ryan, then the brothers. he was in the 101st, paratroop

into normandy before d-day. mark: when you see your kids are textbook, what do you mean? gary: i mean they are terrific. when you dream about kids in the way that they should be, those are my children. mark: before you got into politics he worked in construction and will straight. gary: i started a one-man handy business in albuquerque, just me, and grew that to employ over 1000 people. mark: in the early days when it was just gary johnson, what kind of stuff did you do? gary: painted houses, concrete, carpentry work. mark: on self-taught? -- all self-taught? gary: no.i have paid since everything in my life since 17 years old. at 18 i started working construction jobs since they were the highest paying. i got on a crew where we build houses from the ground up. john: when we sit down with president of candidates, we have to talk about drugs. you are a proud inhaler, right?

gary: i am a truth teller. you don't have to remember anything, so that's who i am. so in the context yes, i have inhaled. john: obviously there are users of cannabis that identify with your campaign. you have said you are not going to partake in using any thc related products while running for president. and if were elected, you would abstain. given your views, what you think it's possible to abstain? gary: i have maintained that you should be not on the job impaired. running for president is a 24/7 gig. being president is a 24/7 gig. the notion of incoming missiles, 12 minutes to deal with it, i think the american people need to be assured that somebody answers that phone that is all there. drinking, as part of that -- i don't drink. i would maintain that you shouldn't be drinking and the

on-the-job either as president. john: your view is that abstention should apply previously. presents should state -- presidents should stay away from any substance that would impair them at all times. gary: i don't want to speak for others. that's the libertarian part of me. that's a decision you are ok with, foot from a personal standpoint, i would be abstaining. mark: was a better movie, fantasia, or the sound of music? gary: fantasia. mark: which is a better band, the beatles or the rolling stones? gary: beatles. mark: once the better tv show, man-to-man or breaking bad? gary: breaking bad. mark: why? gary: because it was filmed in albuquerque. but the best television of all-time, game of thrones. oh my gosh. mark: no metaphor for you?

gary: no, that is it. you are easily have not seen it or you wouldn't have asked the question. mark: i don't get the accents. i am a breaking bad guy. you know why? films in albuquerque. gary: breaking bad in the top five. put up with downton abbey in maybe number 2? the sopranos number 3? mark: that is a killer list. john: what's your favorite nonfiction book? gary: i guess it would have to be game change. [laughter] john: what is your favorite piece of fiction? gary: i guess it would have to be fountainhead. mark: is the president you would model yourself after? gary: jefferson has a lot of appeal to me that i would be the most frugal president that has ever served in our lifetime,

leading by example, bringing an end to the imperial presidency that myself, bill wells, will be good stewards of the office,, not being elected king or dictator. john: the commission on presidential debates says they have to get to 15% in the middle of september. they seem to think that even if they don't get there, the commission might deign to put the name. you think that argument is plausible? mark: my spidey sense is that they will put him in one debate. but they are a package. the two of them together are an interesting team. wells i very prominents in advertising. they need to show people their personalities. they seem to be interesting, engaging figures. i got that likes downton abbey and the sopranos, that's a huge coalition. john: is interesting on

educating the public. i think -- i forgot about the politics about who would benefit. i think it would be good to have him on stage in that debate. i think it would be good for the country. people want alternatives. that was gary johnson. we will get to know his running mate bill wells when we come. ♪

mark: yesterday during the call before the firestorm that broke around gary johnson, we got a chance to talk with him and his running mate bill wells about their personal stories. that wed you johnson, will talk about bill wells. we started about talking about his relationship with friends in high places, highest out of the democratic party and nominee

hillary clinton. bill: i like them both. bill clinton was my favorite governor in the 1990's. i have known mrs. clinton since she was hillary rodham. we both worked on the nixon impeachment. she was majority staff, i was minority staff. ground closely on the impeachment of the president. that is an unforgettable experience. i've had good experience with them over the years. mark: tell us about your kids. bill: i have eight kids. i have been married twice. teddy roosevelt great-granddaughter for five years. california, one any foreign service, one i baltimoren, one in boston. 3 stepchildren. i have been married to a former writer of the washington post, magazine editor. our three kids, one in california, one in washington.

and my body man here, marshall bradley, is my stepson. mark: so when the welds get together, what do you do? bill: this pretty mischievous. our favorite word in both of the blended family is gossip. let's get together for a good vicious gossip. a car right is a good place to have a good gossip because people cannot hear you. john: what you think about it public politics at a young age? bill: i was thinking about becoming a latin teacher.having said that , my father was the uncrowned king of the republicans in suffolk county, long island's. i heard the yapping from an early age, which i associated with cigar smoke. and to this day i love the smell of cigar smoke because it means everyone will be home for the evening. mark: he spent time as an

attorney governor. if someone were to write your biography and say, i've written articles and read all the footage, when they say about the essence about bill weld? bill: most of my life is about public office and knowing what you're going to do once getting there. the state budget was too big, the state budget was bankrupt, setudig -- i wante to the fiscal house in order. cut texas a lot, and cut the state payroll a lot. i did tha ttoo. that was a success and we were rewarded. this is the third one where i know exactly what i would want to do if i get in. it's the same thing i did as governor of massachusetts, and the gary johnson did as governor of new mexico, reverse the fiscal policy of the state, cut

spending, cut taxes, and get us back on a straight path. which strengthens the economy indirectly. if small and medium businesses know taxes are going down, they don't need big tax cuts, they just need security, and able build the plant next door and will hire the 23, 41 workers. mark: viewer in the soundproof chamber when we were talking to governor johnson. i will ask you about a couple things. better movie -- fantasia or sound of music? bill: i guess sound of music. mark: why? bill: julie andrews. was she in the movie? mark: beatles or rolling stones. bill: stones, please. john: what books meant the most to you? bill: james thomas' five book

biography of washington was my favorite historical book. , in literature my two favorite borges, the argentinian, and vladimir novel called --vladimir novikov. fire."rite book is "pale mark: thanks to our two candidates gary johnson and bill weld. bill weld is an incredibly impressive guy. john: a lot of people have asked the question, why isn't bell weld on the top of this ticket? he is in impressive guy that knows a lot about foreign policy. he was a popular governor in the blue state of massachusetts. i always thought he had a national future 20 years ago. mark: as far as i know he has not weighed in on this alepppo f

lap. date will be interesting to see when he talks about it and how he handles it. johnson, you ask him why he is doing this, and he says he doesn't want to leave any stone unturned. i feel like bill wells feels like this is a joyride, like gary johnson said, come do this thing with me and it's the last chance to be in the national conversation. i can't imagine that he's not wringing his hands over what happened with his running mate today. mark: our thanks to governor's gary johnson and bill weld. john and i will be right back. ♪

john: on bloomberg politics.com,

check out more from our latest polls of voters without a college degree. mark: some craziness in the twitterverse. some in the clinton campaign saying this race is over, and mary matalin is saying that trump has a 90% chance of winning. this just a lot of uncertainty. but we know that hillary clinton has a better path to to 70 by a lot. -- to 270 by a lot. john: coming up on bloomberg west, emily chang. tomorrow, for both mark and our --ay to you sign sayonara. ♪

manus: you are watching bloomberg west. let us begin with a check of your first word news. donald trump is attempting to clarify his original position on the iraq war.

a day after being accused of flip-flopping, it's the spoke in cleveland. i i/o post going in -- opposed going in. way hillary the clinton took as out. a mrs. clinton will convene meeting of national security advisers on friday. she says killing the leader of the islamic state will be a top priority. alitical leaders plan to end standoff involving planned parenthood that is holding up a funding bill for the zika virus. it would be involved in a stopgap spending measure avoiding a government shutdown. the flag that was raised at length -- at ground zero went missing that has resurfaced