announcer: from our studios in new york city, this is "charlie rose." lesley: good evening. i'm lesley stahl of cbs news and "60 minutes," filling in for charlie rose, who is away this week. we begin tonight with deborah tannen, a professor of linguistics at georgetown university. she's win extensively about language and its effect on relationships. her book, "you just don't understand -- women and men in conversation," was a "new york times" best-seller for four years. it brought to light the differences between men and

women's communication styles and the implications of gender for leadership. she's written about hillary clinton for a long time as well as about the challenges of sexism in the presidential election. i'm pleased to luck to this taken. i've been following you for years as you have been following hillary for years because you write about the bind women are in. this -- if they're too assertive, it's a turnoff. if they're too gentle it's a turnoff. they just can't win. tell us what you have found the deborah: and the double bind is more than just the idea of you are damned if you do and damned if you don't. it's a situation where you have two requirements that you must fulfill but anything you do to fulfill one actually violates the other. when you think about qualities required of a leader and qualities required of a man, they're similar. now, not everyone is going to fulfill those requirements, but if you do, you are fulfilling

those. for women, the requirements are being a woman are at odds with our requirements for being a good leader, so whatever she does to be a good leader, for example, be confident, talk about what you are really good at, that's going to be offensive if it comes from a woman, because the requirements of a woman are the opposite. you should be self-dereck ating. -- depreckating. you should down play what you have done. a quick x -- example, i wrote about women in the work place. all these things about leadership apply to women at work. there was a woman high up in management who tended to talk about things she had accomplished by saying "we," and that's something i've found in my research that women are uncomfortable saying "i did that," but she was told, you know, you really should own

your accomplishments. you lack confidence when you say we. so she listened to that advice and began saying "i," and then she began hearing, "you know, she isn't as great as she thinks she is." lesley: this is something i -- you wrote about that and hillary. "when she sounds tough. she doesn't sound real because she's a woman and women ar -- aren't 130esed to be tough. so when she does that, she doesn't sound thauget" does the authentic comploint come from that? eborah: well, what dawes authenticity really mean? it means it feels right, it feels like the way i would expect somebody in that situation to be presenting themselves so the double bind is definitely playing a role there. it's not going to quite feel

right if she has a leader -- as de ader is not self precating. that is one of the things that i think has lead -- led to people feeling it uncomfortable -- lesley: not linebackering her? deborah: yeah, and this likablity thing came up back in 2008, remember, with broonlt the whole question of the requirement to be likable is applied far more to women than to men. lesley: can we talk about voice for a minute? the quality of a woman's voice and how much of that is playing into "i just don't like her." drook the one we hear oftentimes is "why does she yell," and i've heard people say it has nothing to do with

sexism, i just wish she would stop yelling. well, if you listen to any public speaker who is addressing a crowd of thousands who are yelling back, they have to raise their voices, they have to yell. all candidates yell because they're tausching over a crowd. but it doesn't sit right when it's a woman. the worst thing for women is that we're expected to be emotional, but the emotion must not be anger. lesley: somebody wrorks i read it recently, that when men hear a woman who is speaking just a tiny bit harshly what she -- they hear in their heads is their mother, yelling "henry, get back in this house right now." you know, that scolding voice the deborah: zolding, -- scolding, stridenting shrill the 78 i've heard people saying that too. it's so important, we're not

talking about sexism as a kind of smear, you know, you're sexist. even if we only had to worry about people who were out and out sexist, they really want to hold women back, we wouldn't have this problem. it's that we all talk through language, and the language and the perceptions of women and men are flunsd by expectations, how we expect women and men to speak, how we expect them to come across and the language we're given is different. lesley: you have studied the difference between men and women going back to when we are 4 or 5 years old. deborah: yes. lesley: and i scud to bring some tapes because i've seen what you have done with chifrpblt first we're going to run guys -- boys and how they talk to each other. >> mine sup to thrlt >> mine is up to the sign the >> oh!

>> mine is automatic the way up to heaven! >> oh! >> mine is all the way up to god! >> mine is too! lesley: they're competing about how high they can throw a ball. deborah: and it's often pounted out that boys are competitive and girls are cooperative. it's true, but they're competitive but also cooperative. lesley: the girls? deborah: the boys, too. they are cooperating in the way that being competitive is a way to have fun. we have to keep in mind that girls and bodies are both cooperative and competitive but they do it in different ways. lesley: how do the girls, how do you tape them? deborah: two little girls i often compare with this one. girls spend more time signature and talking where the boys

spend more time doing things. by baby "did you know -- my baby-sitter amber has already contacts?" the other little girl says "my mom has already contacts and my dad does, too." and the first girl is so pleased, and she says, "the same?" and i've found on all my research i'm working on now on women friends, sisters, mothers, daughters, they spend a lot of effort to emphasize the ways they're the same. if one has a problem and the other says yeah, i know, i have the same problem, then they both feel more connected. that's the focus on the connection rather than topping each other. i've heard women complain that if my friend says i have a problem and i -- she says, that's not a problem for me, the other one will say, "stop putting me down," because

they're supposed to feet same. and this is a problem for women in authority where women in particular have a negative reaction if they seem to be alking about ways you're better. girls don't like girls to -- who seem to think they're better. lesley: does hillary as the first woman nominee, does she have to work on this, do things to change the -- to accommodate the pup -- public's feelings about men versus women? deborah: i think it's something she's dealt with her entire career. i first wrote an op-ed piece about this in 1992 and called it the hillary factor. bill clinton was run forg presidentle lesley: that's when she was changing her hair every week? deborah: that's a perfect example right there. we talk about authentic. she had mousy brown hair, kept it off her face with a

headbanned and she was made fun of and criticized for that. so then she got her hair colored and styled and was vill i have ied -- vill i have ied -- vilified for being manipulative. lesley: i have a question about what i consider an unexplainable par adoblingts women in power, subliminally, there say problem there. women in power even the president mentioned this the i day. but women run households. completely, nobody questions it. i only do what my wife ted lilly -- tells merril: my wife decides how we spend the money, my wife decides where we're going -- the woman is totally in command at home. i know, ok, the woman has, that's her domain but there is something even more that that's just her domain. she's running decisions about

money. why doesn't that translate into the outside world? deborah: yeah, it's a good question. i remember years ago there was a candidate for mayor in d.c. who said "i'm going to clean house with a broom," and that did transfer to i'm going clean up the mess in government. for the most part, though, our associations with the power at home and in the real world are different. lesley: it's all so interesting the so interesting. and i'm going to be thinking about all this when i'm home watching the debate monday night. thank you so much, deborah tannen. brilliant. deborah: it's bain pleasure. thank you.

lesley: seven weeks remain in the 2016 presidential campaign. hillary clinton leads donald trump nationally according to an nbc news survey monkey weekly election tracking poll. among likely voters 50% support clinton and 45% back trump. last week she led by only 4 point nationally. the race across the so-called battleground states, however, is tied 42% to 42%. voters in these states say

they're still looking for change, while the partisan divide remains deep. anthony joins me to discuss these developments and more. that poll says 50% for hillary clinton. is that the first time she's hit that mark? >> just about. and this race is tight. i think you characterize it as tight because the polls are going to move around a little bit not just because of sampling, not many but there are some undecided voters still out there and i think what is really happening in these poll numbers too is hillary clinton has been the front runner, but she's kind of an uncertain front runner in that her favorable numbers have been high. in fact, the highest we've seen for someone in the lead. lesley: higher than his? >> higher than his but they both have high unfavorables and that's added uncertainty to

this as well because you've got a candidate in the lead but so much of each vote is -- says they're just voting for clinton to oppose trump and just voting for trump to oppose clinton the that adds to the ub -- uncertainty. lesley: well, pife been voting a long time, anthony, and i think i have personally voted against someone more than i have voted for. i don't think that's uncommon. >> if you go back to 2012 and said why did you vote for obama instead of romney or whatever, it's around 12%. lesley: i have some questions about a cbs poll and your attitudes in general. based on what you just said i get the feeling that you're not ready to put any money down on who is going to win this election. that's what it sounds like. >> i'm not a betting man in that sense.

but there sathes dynamic here that i think we have to watch and it's not just the electoral college. we go back and forth about which states are flipping which way over the next few weeks but there is that larger dynamic, and it's the call for change. although clinton is leading you see she has not yet matched that voter desire. and all year, they say donald trump is more likely to bring change than she is. so she's gone up in the polls. lesley: let me ask you some questions about the theme of the night. why don't women like trump? what are you finding in the poll, the reasons? anthony: you start with the context. that is that republicans have struggled with women for a while, over the last few elections. democrats tended to do better

with women in general. trump's coalition, full, he does pretty well with loyal republican partisans but the ones holding out, holding him back from hitting mitt romney's numbers, is suburban, moderate republican-leaping west. they don't think much of hillary clinton, quite frankly but they don't think much of him. they don't like his policies on imiation -- immigration, they think his rhetoric can be too extreme. and yet, there is a little kerr ell -- kernel in there we've seen, even though they don't like hillary clinton, they don't think she's ools treated fairly. donald trump, has to keep that core barry: keep them fired up but he can't necessarily go after

hillary clinton because he needs that segment of republican moderate women who ght be turned off if in fact they think he's not treating her fairly. lesley: but he doesn't have that segment. anthony: he's got to get them. lesley: very recently he's been really trying to change his image about his attitudes and feelings 20rd african-americans. he -- toward african-americans. he did a lot of that yesterday. it's so obvious, so unsubtle. but can he change his image with the group we're talk about, the sub you shall -- suburban republican women by just saying i sympathize so much with the black person who's been shot by a policeman -- can he change what he's been saying up to now like that? anthony: look, it's been a white. everybody has an opinion about

donald trump at this point. he's not an unknown figure. lesley: but you suggest these women are susceptible to a change with him? anthony: at least he's got to try. because what you do see, and some would say it's cynical, a bank shot. going after this constituency, african-americans, but really trying to signal to these voters ore here -- here that he's not racist. lesley: but can it work? anthony: whether or not it works i think we see in the next couple weeks but so far it has not. lesley: but he's just starting this. anthony: he's just starting it. look, he's got to move the needle another few percentage points he's been lagging this whole time on just his base, just his republicans. people who would otherwise be voting for a republican nominee

right now. he's around the low 80's and he's got to get to 90 to mash -- match where clinton is with democrats, that's the gap. lesley: what don't men like will hirgdrg hillary? she has the mirror problem he has. anthony: , again, democrats don't typically win men and don't win white men. so she starts with a deficit just by being a democrat. but there's a few interesting things. you read it sort of indirectly in the polling fray number of data points. you loog at yes, men, they don't say directly in the olling, oshe, we don't want to vote for a woman candidate. that's the worst-kept secret in polling, that they conte -- won't answer a question if it's impolite. but they will say cultural change is going a little too fast.

lesley: because that would mean a woman president, right? anthony: it certainly comment you ask them then, what is it that her voters must see in her to saturday -- sort of put them in the other person's head a little bit and men much more likely than women say her voters must be looking for special privileges. so you start to see, is there a little bit of anything there, steering away. these men are also more likely to say in the polling that their cultural values are backing rarer and less respected. so if you put all those data points together you start to see the shadow of something that could be interpreted as a resistance. but it's hard. but the other real estate -- reason it's hard, it's hillary

clinton. she has a very long track record. it's hard to disentangle. she's a very well-known figure, it -- is what i'm saying. she's been in the public eye for a number of years. so she's not a generic person. lesley: hard to see it as just genderism. do the men accept her as commander in chief? someone who could oversee the military? anthony: men -- democrats certainly do. men overall, they do but more question. than women likely to say she would stand up to foreign leaders. so, you know, things that might accrue to that. lesley: what do each one of them have to do very specifically, the main thing they have to get across, to maybe change a deficit or emphasize a positive?

each one. anthony: you come back to hillary clinton for this change. one of the things we talk about as the reason she is so low being viewed as authentic or honor and -- honest and trustworthy. one reason, you can't necessarily address that all at once in one debate but the reasons that that sticks out is the public has long said throughout this year that they think, effectively there are two sets of rules. one for politicians and one for people who have a lot of money in this economy, and one for them. and being able to address the idea that she can deliver change, fairness in an economic and political system that so many people think is rigged, is a central way to meet that moment. lesley: ok. i'm going to interrupt for a

minute because you are talking about conveying almost plans, issues, everybody else i've talked to talks about how much she has to convey a sense of genuineness and being tough but also being soft. they talk about personality issues with her. but you think it's more about issues? anthony: well, it's issues in the sense of is what can you do for me in this economy? lesley: but that's planned. that's -- that's not do i like her. you are thinking that's not that important? anthony: at this point, how much change can you effect in a candidate in six weeks? so for me it comes back to what's the central thing that voters are looking for this year and that's been a constant throughout. even on who they were picking in the polling that's been a constant desire. lesley: what's that guy going

to do for me? anthony: and how can they help me the voter navigate this landscape that i now think is unfair? last week we had the economic measures come out and everybody ked, if it's doing better, how come it's not for sne the answer is let's doing better for somebody else who has advantages and not doing better for me. lesley: what does trump have to do? anthony besides talking to those reluctant republicans who haven't come along, mainly women, he has lagged on the commander in chief task the what we say about that is, that's a cost of entry to the job. right? you have to be commander in chief to be president. all the other policies, maybe congress passes them, maybe they dorningtse but you have to

meet that. how is it that you convey that you are ready and prepared to be commander in chief? that's been his glaring deficit in the polling. lesley: that's his aim, to look presidential in the debate. thank you, anthony. you were great. ♪ p

>> the election is now 46 days away, and the first presidential

debate between donald trump and hillary clinton is scheduled for monday night. with me to talk about the state of the race and what we might see monday are james fallows, a former speechwriter for dana perino,ter, who served as george w. bush's press secretary and has just weeklyd a new political show on fox news, and frank bruni, a columnist for the new york times. welcome, everybody. i thought we would do two rounds. we will start with frank. what is the most important thing that hillary has to do in the debate? frank: i think she needs to seem genuine. voters have said time and again they are worried about her honesty and trustworthiness. based her a someone who has been in political life for so long, they see her as a vessel of ambition, fulfilling a destiny she charted for herself long

ago. i think she needs to convince american voters she has a genuine desire to make their lives better and that she is doing this for them, not for her. >> i am coming back to that because i think she has striven to be genuine. how do you go out there and try to be genuine? but, what do you think? >> i with think she would want to keep the benghazi hearings in mind. she very confidently and firmly, onenot meanly, batted back after another and showed she knows the subject. you name a topic, she will have given six speeches on it over the last year or two coup. temperamentally, she is common in command. calmnk the idea of being in her mastery and not distracted by the spectacle of donald trump is her goal. >> to look presidential.

dana: and in the benghazi hearing, one of the things hillary clinton was able to do was enjoy herself a little bit. when she was sparring with committee members, she said bring it on. i can take any of these questions. can she do all of the things you mentioned and appear relatable, likable? i often feel sorry for her that this is the perception, because i know people who work for hers a she is great, behind the scenes, you wouldn't believe it. what it is like to work for somebody who on camera is not the same thing. if you were to watch the debate for monday night for five minutes, put it on mute, watch what do youning, see? can you relate? does she appear likable? the material is not the problem. it's the perception. ok, let's talk about what

trump has to do. we will go one more round. >> he needs to seem presidential. he needs to seem like someone who can control himself when he tries to, have some restraint. i think of him as a toddler in a high chair. he has to get through the meal without throwing his spaghetti on the wall. it is very hard for donald trump to get through. it's important to remember that this meal is a long one. he did in 11 primary season debates. in only three of them did he have to speak for longer than 20 minutes. in only one did he have to speak for 30 minutes. if things go evenly, he will have to speak for close to 45 minutes on monday night, and he has never done that. >> well, he has done interviews that are long, and he filibusters. what do you think? james: he filibusters, but this is a very different setting.

been able to tune out policy. it's much harder when a questioner is going to ask you to fill two minutes. theink his challenges, on one hand, he said we cannot learn enough substance in the next five days to get through that time, so finding some way to seem in command without actually knowing the material, but also -- i have a little different vision than frank. i think he would come out best in this if he can make hillary clinton descend to his level, get into an insult contest. he would wind that. i think he wants to lower her slugfest,marco type which i think she will resist. will turn to her and say crooked hillary. dana: i think she is hoping for that, but is not going to get

it. i think his team will say for 90 will not insult. you need to appear presidential. host: is that what you would do coming yourself? dana: here's the thing about donald trump. this year, he has tried to re-win the primary over and over again. the 40 million people who will vote for him will vote for him no matter what. neither candidate has shown an ability to expand their base. step over the low bar that is set for him, he will probably do well. frankel and if he can restrain himself, he will do well on -- frank: if he can restrain himself, he will do well on that stage. most americans feel hillary clinton is qualified for the presidency. wasr 35% felt trump

qualified, which means he has people voting for him who do not feel he is qualified. people cannot picture him as commander in chief. if he can stand there without incident, without fumble, without throwing spaghetti on sameall for 90 minutes, lectern, same stage, it normalizes him in a way he is not yet normalized. him. it elevates dana: she will have things she can poke him with, but he is very good at figuring out what is the insult i will deliver to you that will get under your skin and make you have a moment where you look like you are irritated. it's not a question of strength. it's just the way it is and we have to accept it. if a man is seen as aggressive, it's a positive. if a woman is seen as overly aggressive, it's a negative. i don't inc. the clinton

campaign had the right tactic after the commander in chief forum with matt lauer when the first thing they said was that matt was being sexist. i don't think he was and i don't think that plays well with women who might be thinking about voting for her. host: you raise a good point about matt, and that's interrupting. can he interrupt her and not look like he is bullying? can she enter up to him and not look like she is pastoring? -- interrupt him and not look like she is pestering? and can pour lester holt's -- do his job holtz without having everybody come after him the next day? james: as george w. bush was doing to al gore 16 years ago, is to holt's obligation

interrupt and say what do you mean. of moderatorstory who represent the republic and the truth. do you mean to say, mr. secretary, do you mean to say, mr. trump? host: i remember him saying there you go again, marco rubio. i thought it was very effective. a little humor and interrupting. i remember the moderator after to governor reagan jimmy carter had been fairly intense. both of them lose by interrupting. donald trump does not stand up well to the physical presence of a strong woman. you recall the minister in

flint, carly fiorina, dressing down. an ideal dynamic for him. frank: one of his worst debate moments was when carly fiorina said i think every woman in america just heard what you said. he was sputtering and looked like he was at a loss. the word don't use histrionics, but you talk about trump being operatic and theatrical. you think it is a plot. james: everything about donald trump that made him a world wrestling performer and a reality show performer has held up. i was speaking to a body language specialist who said that while his range of emotions seems wide, it is actually smaller than most peoples. he is always doing something

broad, so it is easier for him things heingly say knows are untrue and the rest of us know are untrue because there are no tells that the rest of us would have. host: what about his business acumen and how much he is worth? think that is where he is vulnerable. she can read back to him outrageous things he has said himself, or quote michael bloomberg. i think that was a moment at the convention, when michael bloomberg said i am a new yorker and new yorkers know a con when we see one. frank: i don't know if it was your piece or another piece i read recently that said when there was a roast of him five years ago, he did not nick's questions about his hair or all of these other things, but his

net worth, whether he was rich, about that. jokes i am sure the clinton campaign has noticed that and there has been a lot of talk about how to go down that road. host: what if she pulled a trump and said something like so many people, everybody at the highest levels, says you didn't pay any taxes last year and you are not ?ven worth a billion dollars what if she did that? dana: for her, you are at risk of not seeming genuine. if she delivers a line as if she has been practicing -- it something he's really good at. one of the things donald trump can talk about is the clinton foundation and the global initiative. everybody has something to play here. host: but she can go right back. frank: if she says where are your tax returns, he will say

where are your transcripts of speeches.n sachs i don't think those are equivalent, but that is what he will say. and once they are in the mud, they are in the mud. you are all saying she should not go on the stage with the goal of getting under his skin. dana: i think she should in a way that's clever, but that does not seem like an act, and that she is really hoping he responds. i think he will be disciplined and not respond. the "wall street journal" had a poll that came out today ofch i found amazing because the things that are not registering. deplorable, not registering at all. with him. with her, it's the e-mail.

putin, not registering. does she gain anything from it? james: i think she should press this every single day. been the norm since nixon, everybody has done it, even though it was romney ur yearsand screaming fo ago. if trump gets away with it, it's bad. host: we know he doesn't know global capitals. know aleppo,sn't does that matter? people know he is not informed. was: i don't know if that in the poll or not, but again, the 40 million people who are going to vote for him do not

care about those things. they want change. he is different. he would bring something new, antiestablishment, not going to reward people in washington anymore. if you have 100 million people watching, that's not your twitter feed. that's much broader. so, if he doesn't know something, sure, i think it matters, but it won't necessarily matter to his core group. james: we saw in the debate that chris matthews conducted the way not knowing can matter. taking him down a chain of questions. if you are pro-life, what does that mean? who are you going to put in jail question mark trump has not lived his life in the policy world, so -- in jail? inmp has not lived his life the policy world, so he doesn't know that step one leads to step nine. he is used to pop quizzes.

frank: i think you can get away without knowing a lot of proper nouns. the question is, if he is in one of those areas where he is fumbling and he feels at a loss -- he is very confident, which is a weird thing to be confident in his ignorance, but a lot of successful politicians are confident in their ignorance. -- if he loses his poise, i think that matters. host: he was a curly cue away from moving on from what was asked and moving onto a different plane. he is gifted at it. james: i watched all of the in preparation for this. it is amazing how much time you

can fill with such a limited repertoire of thoughts. build the wall. i think it's going to be harder to recycle those in this setting. will the other thing that likely happen before monday night is there will be some sort of breaking news development. having to think on their feet and think about something they have not talked about -- although it will probably be relatable to something they have talked about -- i always like to see how candidates relate to breaking news. frank: if the debate were , they might not have specifically been prepared to talk about charlotte or tulsa. host: let's talk about body language as being may be more important than the words they say. it's not what they say, the wall and all that, but what son their face -- what's their face and how they sound? james: setting aside how they

that isrst, something striking and that we reject in the political affairs world, but every moment you can remember from a debate is not the content of what somebody said, but how he or she responded, how dan quayle looked when lloyd bentsen -- benson dressed him down. with the a debate sound turned down to see who looked comfortable, confident, not looking ashen, as rick perry rememberhe couldn't his third cabinet department. it.asn't that he forgot obviouslyt he was so uncomfortable. that works up until trump. -- frank: that works until trump. i watched his debates with the ,ound off and he was pouting

sulking. he looked petulant and nasty. was behaving the way a successful wrestling promoter would. video of himmous shaving the head of vince mcmahon. frank: is that the new metric for the debates? republican primary debate, where you had a very large field, one person was trained as a reality show performer. 20%-20 5% of the people to find you the most , in wrestling terms -- frank: but in a general election debate were you need more than a plurality, i am not sure it will serve trump well. host: it didn't hurt him in the primaries. dana: there are people who like listening to him on television. there's a lot of can you believe .e just said that

he's pretty funny. she can be funny as well. for her, it's like walking on a wire without a net. host: is it harder for women to be funny? dana: i have heard that. i mean, i'm hilarious. it's still neo-. this is a big deal. it's an historical moment. there's a lot of pressure on her. the women's vote is one thing that, in 2000, you had the soccer moms. 2004, the security moms. year, it's married men with thedren who are kind of target demographic that both of these campaigns need to talk to. host: republican women?

dana: the republicans have pretty much come home for him. a lot of republican women have strong feelings against hillary clinton. they have for years. they are baked in. that if you lookthat if you looe like north carolina, college-educated white, men and women, tend to fall into her camp. that will be a big battleground state for her. that will be a big battleground state for her. frankel and the thing that has concerned me most watching her campaign and what -- frank: the thing that has concerned me most watching her s toaign, donald trump seem understand intuitively how gloomy americans feel, how uneasy they are. i think in trying not to be donald trump, trying not to be a scare monger, she goes to much and the other direction, and americans do not hear from her, i get how you feel uneasy about this country's future and place in the world.

dana: she has also been cautious because i don't think she wants to offend president obama, whose help she needs. she is in a tricky position with the party. the democrats have been in power for two terms. do you really want a third term? usually, americans do not. fighting for her or she has to walk a bit of a fine line. bit ofshould give her a a pass. president obama has to realize she needs to put distance between herself and him, just as she has had to put distance between herself and her husband. host: what has surprised each of havehe most about what we experienced in this campaign so far? who wants to go first? it's hard to see how anybody could avoid the answer of the success of trump because there has been nobody remotely like him in our national political history, summary with

no public service experience whatsoever. on any given day he commits a gaffe or offense that in previous campaigns would stop some but a cold. there have been 100 so far. it's the combination -- stop some but he cold. there have been hundreds so far. it's the combination of the entertainment industry, the strategies of other candidates to attack each other, all of it has gotten him this far. i am really hoping this becomes a theoretical exercise two months from now, as opposed to understanding our situation as a nation. that's number one for everybody. second to that? frank: that's the only answer. a sub answer for me is the utter fusion in this campaign and andte of entertainment politics. the media sellen its so hard with such dramatic

value. the drumbeat, the countdown clock's. and i wish -- you see these numbers, more than 100 million people are going to tune into the debate. i would love to think that's a great yardstick for the vitality of our democracy, but i think they are tuning in the way they would to any spectacle in which something ugly could happen. i think the complete erasure of the line between politics and entertainment is going to be one of the stories of this campaign we will be talking about well into the future. dana: i agree. to go granular, donald trump has spent so little money, and she has spent so much money, and it has not moved the needle for her. jeb bush was a great example. a lot of money spent. spend that much money, and he has momentum. i don't know what that means

going forward. host: here's what surprised me, not as much as trump, and this is a little self-serving, but that hillary hasn't talked about being a grandmother more. one of her problems is that, for may be sexist reasons, she is shrill and all that, but i went to a focus group. the besters have all reputations in the world and have all the qualities she needs to get. somebody in a focus group i sat in on asked what comes to mind when you say grandmother. loving, wonderful, trustworthy, all of these things. i am surprised she hasn't played it up a little more. dana: i think they are overthinking in brooklyn. her age and her health. host: age is off the table. frank owen and i don't think health deserves to be on the table. it's --

don't think health deserves to be on the table. it's a little ridiculous. they need to decide what her biggest problem is. warm,s that she's not genuine, lovable, delicious, all of those things. dana: the republican party has had a big fight amongst itself, but the democrats are going to have one. that's coming. say she becomes president. she will never be pure enough be ahe left, and it will very difficult presidency. me is what has surprised the idea that everything in america is terrible, according to trump. president obama has said we have terrible problems, but compared to eight years ago and compared to the rest of the world, there is no other country on earth

whose prospects he would change with the united states right now. at least half of the country has a narrative that the u.s. is in 1933.861 or delegates were convinced the economy is in shambles -- except where they are from. dana: everybody hates congress except for their own congressman. frank: where is the crisis? allapattah has been asking -- gallup has been asking every economy has the biggest in the world. since 2008, americans have been saying china. it's been wrong since 2008, but it speaks volumes about where america sees our place in the world. to interrupt,want

but unfortunately, i have to. this is very sad because i could go on forever about my favorite topic, politics, but we have run out of time. thank you.

don: welcome to "with all due respect." let's get straight to the news dominating today. after days of protests in the streets of charlotte in north carolina, police have not released a video of the shooting of keith scott. received video from scott's family. the video was taken by scott's wife. it shows her telling police her husband has a traumatic brain injury. she pleads with her husband to