announcer: from our studios in new york city, this is "charlie rose." charlie: we begin this evening with our continuing coverage of the u.s. presidential election. clintonrump and hillary faced off in the first debate of 2016. the candidates sparred over the economy and other public criticisms. the general consensus was that clinton won. president obama and secretary clinton created a vacuum the way they got out of iraq. they got out wrong.

the way they got out was a disaster. isis was formed. if yous the fact that are a young african-american man and you do the same thing as a young white man you are more likely to be arrested or charged or convicted. we have got to address systemic racism in our justice system. we cannot just saying law and order. >> i don't believe that hillary clinton has the stamina. as soon as he travels to 112 countries and negotiates a peace deal, a cease-fire, a release of dissidents and an opening of new opportunities in nations around the world or even spent 11 hours testifying in front of a congressional committee he can talk to me about stamina. charlie: joining me now is bob

costas. i am pleased to have both of them with me. we begin with you. ?ow did you see it unfold what do you read from these results? assertive sort of hate the win and lose in a debate. were two there debates. trump was doing well at the beginning. here is the problem in america. you can debate the ferocity of those claims but it is a claim that he hit very well. hillary clinton has done this for 30 years and said how

come you haven't insulted? he prevailed the first 30 minutes but then in the last 60 minutes he got away from him. the rest of that conversation was not on his terms. was it was almost as if she seduced -- she seduced him into getting off message. hillary clinton is a very tenacious person. she prepared heavily. you got the feeling that there were a set of marks that she wanted to hit. she didn't miss any of them, she had everyone. -- hit everyone. he never talked about immigration or building the wall. he wants to say. that i think was a sign of how

it got away from him. >> the morning of the debate i watched him get out. there was a lot of family members, it was low-key. there is no mock debate going on. they said trump is just being trump. .hat is what we saw he did not make an ideological argument for conservatism. start partly on trade. he doesn't do the normal preparation. so today what is he saying? >> there is a lot of defensiveness right now. much just making

excuses. shouldid the moderator have asked more questions about the clinton foundation and benghazi. there was some disappointment privately. there are a lot of claims that he did fine. privately there is disappointment that he did not ask and his appeal. .his was a moment he kept his base but did not -- made an overture. charlie: why didn't he? >> he did not have a strategy, he did not have preparation. thought he could just be a natural performer coming out of television. charlie: you think he underestimated her? thought that would be a not

and to make a thematic argument. we saw that points still matter. you saw the two of them on stage. charlie: in the beginning you thought he was making these rational arguments. you can see parts of that. he's been asked to articulate. he looked presidential, he is on the stage with a woman who has been a senator for two terms and first lady. what he has to do. he has to be on the same stage

as her. that was a challenge for him. he didn't have to beat hillary clinton, he have to pass a plausibility test. i think you missed an opportunity and this is what bob referred to. those people are with him. they thought he did just fine. do something to reach out to suburban white women? appeal?pand his i think in the end when you "first up step back from it. -- i think hillary with the wayell she went after the birther issue.

that is a problem. one of the key moments was his exchange about the tax returns. he has been able to posturing in this campaign as a working man's billionaire, as a brash political outsider. when he seemed to almost encourage the idea that he pay , it playedome tax into clinton's argument that is not an outsider it comes out of the republican mainstream tax protect the wealthy. charlie: where does he go from here? >> when i was in the spin room

last night, i huddled for a bit with rudy giuliani. what is the plan for st. louis? they said he wants to take the gloves off even more. fight.ural job is to to bill clinton, his problems, she wants to make this more deeply personal in the second showdown. it is dangerous, i think. if our analysis is that all right. he has often told people that he needs to be true to himself. he believes that is the donald trump that works best.

he is most comfortable with it. it is hard to tell but i do think that one of the dangers is that they overreact to this debate and go too far in a different direction. maybe that is playing into her hands. hillary clinton was trying to debate him. there is potential game there but also potential danger. voterse to wonder which is that going to appeal to. charlie: when will the first poll come out? >> i think thursday, friday. there are quick debate polls. i conclude that you need to let three or four days past before the dust settles. has it really change anyone's mind? has it changed the way they view

someone? i don't think that is findable in the first 24 hours. charlie: do you believe the search that took place is very close? was it because of positive things donald trump was doing for some rough water for hillary clinton from bit age of deplorables to the collapse of 9/11. bob: it was a mixed of the handling of the health episodes. he has found his groove on the stump in these crucial swing states. even immigration but it was trade and the economy. he said i will be your voice. he did not have a clear answer. charlie: how did he handle foreign policy? he has a view on foreign

policy that shakes up republican policy thinkers. when he says the japanese should pay more, a lot of people are saying yes that's right. a lot of people believe that. i think the idea that alliances matter which was hillary clinton's come back to that. i think the harder question for her is going to be the one she tried to do on him. donald trump has an answer, he says he is a tough guy. it is an attitude not a policy. reasons is no one has an idea of how to take care prices.

-- of isis. there is a message that he delivers that is radically different for a republican. he has changed the republican party's position on two key issues. they still have some residents around the country and in swing states. i'll think we should diminish the fact that that has worked for him. >> whether muddled answer for trump on pollard -- public policy. he is so different on trade and immigration but on foreign policy. he has non-interventionist instincts that could -- has been winning him some voters. is assuming and sinking around on the iraqi question and that was such a missed opportunity for a swap of voters

that is looking for an non-interventionist republican. how many people are reading into how well clinton wasand how was -- there over the course of an hour and a half he seemed to get worse not better. is there a sense he was not damaged by this and that his constituents were certainly not affected by this and undecideds are still undecided? the only person who is not nervous right now is trump. they found it a little strange that he was very relaxed. the reason for that is because he thinks the winds of change are behind him. he doesn't need to be perfect at all times. he would rather just be donald

be a changepe to agent and sweep into the white house. charlie: as he made an effective argument? >> change is his best argument this year. it is unnecessary argument. it may not be a sufficient one but it is powerful. anyone running already and power has been in politics so long. populist and change environment. whether he created or stumbled into it, that is where he has prospered. the clinton people know this. both sides believe this. can't be changed, we have to browse every

constituent. she came with what they wanted to hear. change is a better argument in august and september than in october or november. now it's for real. i like change but i'm a little scared about change. that is what hangs in the balance right now. and our latest poll, the share of people who wanted someone different then someone who had , it has shifted a little bit. the experience argument got a little better. closer closer, maybe that changes. charlie: where does he go from now? is he going to campaign in the rustbelt? floridawas in

immediately after the debate and went to miami. he is scheduled to have a rally there. we talked to the campaign and they say florida looks pretty not for them that they are confident about two states, ohio and iowa. they are much more nervous so these are mid-atlantic states. they are leaning towards moderate. clinton did everything to rub them with her rhetoric. how about pennsylvania? phillype pittsburgh in -- you have pittsburgh and philadelphia on each side. mike pence will be in pennsylvania to try and get those steel towns out for him.

the problem is is that philadelphia has 1.5 million she will comend out of there was such an enormous advantage that it makes him very difficult. when is your next interview, bob? bob: hopefully soon. and ie to his advisers think the more access the better. i hope to get some more time. we'll be right back. stay with us. ♪

charlie: we continue our our coverage with the debate. i am pleased to have them we begin with ed lewis. it was the tale of contrasting preparations. he said here not spend -- he said he did not spend much time preparing. he set the bar low but was not able to clear it. it did not seem if he even tried. what are the consequences for donald trump? ed: that is the million-dollar

question. colleagues have seen one debate performance many times in the past and drawn one is boorish, he is fact free. large segments of the electorate have seen a completely different debate so the poll numbers have not gone the way we would expect. i would be astonished if you got a bounce out of last night's debate. i would be more astonished than on previous occasions. he failed to clear the bar i said. he has no answers to questions upmust have known would come like the further controversy -- birther controversy. he had no prepared answers on that. up like theso to my eyes, his perfe

was disastrous. i mistrust my judgment. charlie: what is your judgment john? john: it was rather like a guy in a sports bar debating a woman in a brookings seminar. they were not in the same world. [laughter] a lot of america goes to sports bars. it seems to me that as the days tick by and we are down to 43 days, this is becoming more and more a referendum on secretary clinton more so than a referendum on donald trump. work ata good bit of the debate. it is not always seem that way this year. she has closed the deal but i think a strong

performance. i suspect she wins and gets .elow 50% no one should be surprised that he decided to work from his gut because that is what got him this far. charlie: there was a beginning and then there was another debate that morphed into something with donald trump message and interrupting and being almost irritated in terms of what he wanted to do and they. -- say. this is been his performance style. it was more like a rally performance been a trip

additional -- then a traditional debate format. his basic view is that if the experts are so smart, why might the nominee of the republican party? this going to stick with throughout. for a picnic late of any kind. pivot of any kind. we have the most prepared versus the least prepared candidate in history. charlie: he was certainly not reagan. ronald reagan came into a debate with jimmy carter with a reputation even though he had been governor to terms in america notut to well known and some americans have been scary.

in one debate he seemed to have cleared that up. ronald reagan had one goal and that was to make himself likable and believable in the role of president and he achieved that. -- donald one goal trump had one goal which was to clear a very low bar of being temperamental and trustworthy individual. for hillaryry hard clinton to knock him off course. him ont needed to needle his net worth and as a business deal maker. if that's all it takes, it shouldn't be that hard for her to keep doing this. charlie: he's clearly unnerved about his inheritance. number comesillion

from the debt owed in a filing to his father. as opposed to the one million that he says was a small loan that was given. that clearly riled him up. those who have estimated how much he really inherited showed it would now be greater than his alleged network. thatis the kind of thing comes to the court of his self globally envied dealmaker. hillary used a small fraction of that kind of material last night. the other thing --charlie: the

other thing is that her campaign has lacked enthusiasm. and certainor her box she is depended on. the way she took on the birther issue and the way she talked about donald trump. to that inspire her base as well as the sanders base? i think no. i think she made some progress there but my reaction is that she was perhaps overly passive in that moment. i totally understand. she got in stage with an angry bear. you need to figure out what the parameters are before you can go in and go for the kill santa's week.

-- so to speak. there was a higher level of confidence so i think she will begin to close that and inspire some of those undecideds. it says something and goes back to my referendum point that she is the establishment. there is no more establishment figure than a clinton in 2016. -- new ideas she got fries was from her challenger. you still have a significant number of people who are not ready to decide. he will try to make the argument. you have been in this for 30 years and you haven't come up

with any solutions. >> classic populist argument. concert has experienced going into this we assume it will be left velocity? with the giant housewarming attached to that. there are polarized to 45% for of 40 each and they are not going to be shifted. we need to see if the turnout will be lifted in both sides. hillary clinton is probably highero get afro-american -- african-american turnout. donald trump is going to have done nothing to get the college

educated republican women in the suburbs who are important in states like pennsylvania and philadelphia. it is also a turnout game. i think hillary will have to have one point last night. it will be mostly about turnout and enthusiasm. people who support him will not be impacted by what happened last night. they will still support him. what you have to see here is whether they can build and bring out their voters with great in -- enthusiasm. ed: many have been writing that he is lacking a big theme.

big and says some why you should be voting for her. i don't think in six weeks she is going to come up with it. it has been missing for a year or two. the way she is going to win is through donald trump self emulating and people fearing a trump president more than they despise hillary one. become more she likable? some progresske on that? she did. she is the grown-up in the room run out aas to turnout campaign. and she ist change

not a plausible change agent. entered history as agents of change. she now has to make the case but she is an agent of stability. charlie: change is not a pathway to the white house. that is application has to make. when she says he doesn't have the temperament, she is thing i can be trusted with the codes and can get off the helicopter and handle a crisis. i am stability and he is not worth the risk. charlie: what did you think about the gambit that he will make his tax returns available when she gives up her e-mails? ed: i think that was a clever

way of getting her to feel comfortable on e-mails. on whether or not she came , i didas more likable watch her body language. i never comment on her fashion or body language but she did didn'tuite a lot and she screech or shout. a couple of critics of the red pantsuit that she came across as warm and humid because trump helped her to do so. he was very reason. he kept saying wrong in a low voice. i think she did make progress. there is reagan in doing that.

hillary clinton used that kind of thing. i thought there was a sense of anding at him on design with the amusement. continuedlieve your -- continuing to do this. i wasn't here in the states in 1980. it was at the end of a pretty bad decade. on this potentially miss reading , there is a split screen there that is symbolic of perceptions in this country. that,ms of defeating there are a lot of people who hate hillary and are extremely

frustrated who hear about america doing relatively well against europe and others but agree with trump. his dystopian vision of america is not just half of america. the rest of the world is incredulous. hillary did not really challenge him on that. hispanics and blacks live in hell? it was quite an extraordinary vision but a lot of americans feel this. i don't know whether his anger was entirely misplaced? it is just a question all caps what proportion do they make up and is hatred of hillary really there over writing political moment in life? charlie: it is certainly against

the establishment. the future does not look as bright in their generation. after the debate he said the first thing she has to do is go to working-class areas of america and say i know how you understand the issues you are facing in your personal life and i want to tell you that even if you don't vote for me, i'm going to come back here and listen to you. you have my word that even if you don't vote for me, i will come back here to you might be that is on a pathway for her not to gain votes but to gain a sense of who she is. that is an interesting the but i was struck by

description of her father's work. she doesn't talk about her father very much because her mother was principal factor in her life. striking in that she was trying to present herself as what she is. is under thes that severest of strains and most people don't believe it can be perpetuated. there are two numbers i always think about. one is 19%. the -- trustans do the government to do the right thing. fewer than one in five americans believe the federal government will do the right thing. the second number is 135,000. that is the number that to

income -- joe biden's facilitate a middle-class life. anyou're looking for explanation, it is the fall from 77 to 19. that is missing almost $80,000 of income that people have come -- think of that they could enjoy that kind of life. that is why donald trump happened. charlie: thank you. we'll be right back. stay with us.

>> edward l died later this month. the new york times called him the foremost american playwright astute.ychologically desperation and facade of daily life. three of his works one the pulitzer prize.

i think he is one of the forefront playwrights. he will be at some of the most access to essential questions. no other way to do it. i think that any play that questions. a lot of there are no questions asked. if you're going to spend $100 or more, something should happen to you. someone should ask you some questions about your values and the way you think about things. maybe you should come out of the theater with something having happen to you. you should be changing of thinking about changing.

charlie: you just answer the question i was about to ask you. what should you get out of the theater? something that confronts you with the life you were living. edward: exactly. it should hold a mirror up to people. this is the way you behave. this is what you accept. you don't like what you see here on stage, it should change. charlie: the ability to understand and then put it in guidance. many have much more questions than answers. the job is to ask interesting

questions. i don't have any answers. charlie: you are where i am. a lot of questions with no answers. that is my purpose. [laughter] edward: we are functioning together. charlie: you are an artist. when he set out to write a play, how do you go about it? i discovered that i have been thinking about a play. charlie: a play or an idea? as a run started out poet. rotten poet. i eventuallyr so try place. that work to someone better and they quit my job delivering telegrams and i got thrown out of my family's home.

i had a wonderful time. why do they throw you out of the home? i was in what they wanted. they wanted someone to be a corporate drone of some kind. perhaps a doctor or lawyer or something respectable. they did not want a writer. lives --winsthat close surprises. edward: that happened after they threw me out. [laughter] that it isd formulating in my head. things are happening to them. i listened for a long time. characters doe

scenes with me. i remember i am writing the play of it. being conscious i will test my characters out and put my characters in a situation that can't be in the play. if they can handle themselves in an if have i seen. they can handle themselves in a way that rings authentic. so what they do or say is natural to them. therefore you demand what of the artist? edward: i want people to come in and see the first play they have ever seen. they don't come in with any preconditions of what a pleasure to be -- play should be.

the first play they've ever seen. ,f they're willing to do that then anything is halfway decent. charlie: they will consider that idea. i realize these are not easy standards. there are actors better than other actors. edward: of course you try to get the best actors and directors you can. charlie: have you seen plays that were better because the more insidepreted your head? of course. there are some actors that seem to understand getting inside my characters heads more than others. i tried to work with those actors. how long does it take you to write a good play? damned if i know.

not that it should take as long as it takes. that other question, how long is the play? charlie: for everything else. why haven't you been able to transfer this skill? edward: i'm a playwright. i don't think like a poet or i think like kinopolis. charlie: you have a command of language. edward: i've done a lot of poetry. they were very skillful. they were imitations. thing wasn't until i was doing .omething that i could do well

they said yes you are a playwright and this is what you should do. they felt right for the first time and it felt like i was writing like me. i think i go around behaving like a writer. i never keep notebooks. i think i should probably start writing things down. ifperate on the theory that there is someone who wants to be in a play, it should be there at all. charlie: that idea has to be powerful enough. are a literary person.

that might compel you to write things down. as a playwright, you write your characters in this is stuff. you choose characters that you say what you want them to say. charlie: once you get them going, they go. at some point they have a life of their own. what point is that? edward: before i trust them to be in the play. i will think about who they are and take them on long walks with me and i will improvise. if i know them well enough, i can trust them to be in the

play. the difficulty comes when people don't want to relate to what you've written. maybe you've done it too well. comes.ficulty theree: someone is out producing the delicate balance. that can happen from time to time. i have a few of those. charlie: you have a healthy dose of paranoia? edward: healthy, yes. [laughter] charlie: you have the dose?

how about insecurity? edward: no, i have never been insecure. of anything? i think it is a great waste of time. charlie: you would rage against it? edward: i like to think so. i don't think i would like to start a play. and not finish it. when you teach playwriting at the university. edward: it's a workshop. it is not like a lecture hall. what you hope to impart to those future playwrights? edward: i tell them all don't be

a playwright unless it's something that you would be an incomplete person without doing. it is a fairly ugly racket. if it is something that you need then you have got to be your own man and don't be owned by anybody. read as well as you possibly can. anyone involved in the production of the play is there because of you. tell them that. life is too short to compromise too much and sell out. learn your craft but don't be owned by anyone. charlie: the most important lesson i have learned from you as part of your own philosophy which is to make sure that death follows life and it is inevitable and don't just glide through life. don't waste your life. sees control.

thatd: what could be worse you are filled with regret over what you have not done and are never going to have time to do? charlie: to have said no more often to risk and experimentation. always be able to see the precipice wherever you are walking. charlie: most of your stuff is about life and death. love is not the only thing. because of three pulitzer prizes have kept an exalted place. the interesting thing is that you did not win for virginia woolf. you were awarded by the jury and then someone overruled it for reasons i have never quite understood.

maybe the play was considered to violent. edward: i can't make any judgments. some of the plays have been crucified. charlie: how about this notion? [laughter] there is the thing about tennessee williams and who else? and the notion that they have had great plays and lost it. edward: this happens to some playwrights. charlie: if you have a fear that success, of this early in the 60's. 20 years ago. writer every worthwhile

has an accurate take on how they should be doing and the popularity and critical but don't necessarily have much to do with excellence. you go about your business because you can't be affected by it. you are either right or you are wrong. --rlie: david petraeus edward albee dead at 88. ♪

>> we asked some of the best minds in the world from business, government, the arts, and academia what are the most urgent problems facing humanity and how do we solve them? problems, big"big thinkers." what is the number one problem facing mankind? don't find a more sustainable