announcer: from our studios in new york city, this is "charlie rose." treause: david pe is here. he commanded u.s. troops in iraq ge, and alsour led coalition forces in afghanistan with the collapse of the cease-fire in syria, he has coalition forces ready to take most old from isis, i am pleased to have a table. gen. petraeus thank you, charlie. charlie: let it begin with

iraq. is on the highest agenda, the highest place on the agenda. the retaking of mosu. l. you were there during the iraq war. it will say something about the plight of isis. it has a lot of meaning. give me a sense of how you see it. gen. petraeus: it does. it has symbolic meaning, and very tangible meaning. there is no question we're going to defeat the islamic state in mosul and throughout iraq. the real issue actually is post islamic state governance, the capital of which is mosul, an area i was privileged to serve during the 101st airport division in baghdad. this is the most complex human terrain in all of iraq. manyni arab majority, kurds.

many of them have grievances against of them, and even rivalries within the sectarian groups. it is very, very complex. frankly, it is what be far more challenging this moment than defeating the islamic state. it will be a tough fight. there will be a city battle. isis has dug in, improvised explosive device is, but no question it will be defeated. the same is through a record they will still be insurgents, guerrilla elements. but the level of violence should decline. the issue for iraq writ large, we are seeing very concerning development in recent weeks. months ago a vote of no confidence that resulted in the minister of interior being pardoned. in the last few weeks, the minister of defense has been given a pardon.

and highly respected kurdish leader was given a vote of no-confidence, the minister of finance grievously serving as minister of foreign affairs pretty impressively. this is an effort undoubtedly to take down the prime minister of iraq. it appears led by the former chi, isinister, malah highly sectarian efforts really undid so much of what we did together. who alienated the sunni arab population and grated fertile fields for the planting of the seeds of extremism, which the islamic state then used and exploited as it was in the get off of his stomach after our enablers left, and of course went into syria through all kinds of additional combat experience, money, weapons, vehicles, sweat back into iraq. charlie: if malachi was to come

back, when we assume he was doing the bidding for iran? gen. petraeus: considerable iranian influence, he is not one who when i was privileged to work with him during the multinational surge, who had a particular love for iran, but he had a need for what iran could provide at various times. and he is using that now. the truth is, he did not stay in iran very long when he was in his period of being outside iraq, as many of the leaders were. he ended up in syria for the bulk of the time. clearlyiranians providing support, assistance, direction, weapons, and so forth to the shia militia, which to be sure to protect baghdad in a moment of peril and the islamic state seemed to threaten the islamic capital, but who now are very, very powerful and a really beyond the control in some respects of the prime minister. and have caused real problems when they have gone into sunni arab areas, and in many cases abused the population.

kindis an example of the of challenge you have post islamic state. again, all about the struggle for power and resources, a struggle writ large for iraq and baghdad. keeping in mind by the way it is baghdad that determines the distribution of the oil revenue. that is the biggest centrifugal force that keeps iraq together. and it will be about post islamic state governance in mosul, where we were able to achieve quite good governance that was representative of all the different elements and responsive to all of them with minority rights guaranteed as well in the early days. but where that proved much more problematic overtime. charlie: and there is an axiom i assume of military strategy, it says is one thing to push the enemy back. another thing to hold the territory. gen. petraeus: that is exactly right. a number of us has said do not clear until you know how you will hold. that is very much operative here, but i would add do not

clear until you know how to hold and govern. that is the real issue. and there are a lot of conflicting objectives, desires, grievances are going to make that very, very difficult. i know the president's special envoy is very pleased with this, as is the new ambassador to iraq from the united states. they are working at hard, meetings up in iraqi curtis , and where they are huddling to determine what follows islamic state control in the province. but again, there is a lot of conflicting objectives here. charlie: one historical point. donald trump often makes the point on the campaign trail that somehow the obama administration is somehow responsible for the rise of isis. and he cites the fact that we left iraq, and because we left iraq what used to be al qaeda in iraq morphed into isis. and there have been more

american troops remaining in iraq when the left, even of the government did not want them, we would have seen a different situation. nonpartisan. i am not i will not comment on a particular candidate statement. i will come in on the fact. of the real rise of isis is the alienation of the sunni arab community in iraq, which again created this opportunity for the islamic state to get support within the sunni arab -- this is by malaki. i would have liked that debate -- charlie: store the old al qaeda in iraq -- gen. petraeus: to some degree. there is another element though, which is in the prime minister also prevented us from continuing to enable his special operation command and counterterrorism forces to continue to keep the islamic state down to keep it defeated,,

on its stomach if you will. and that is also prevented. he made an agreement to that effect in one point in time, and it was never operationalized. now, i would like to have seen 10,000 troops stay. without question. i do doubt it would have given us the influence of the prime minister, to keep them from carrying out these ruinous sectarian actions. but what it would have done, if we would've had bases, infrastructure, communication, satellite, all the rest of that, so that we very rapidly could have resorted forces into iraq was clear we needed to support the iraqi security forces to prevent them from taking iraq, urbil. that is something that is indisputable. it took us two long, friendly a very long time, as we discussed before at this table, time matters when you are fighting an enemy like in the islamic state. which is enjoying success in cyberspace, in large part because it is seen as a success

and the sooner. that you can show the islamic state is a loser, it is no longer effective in recruiting, inspiringbe jihadists others across the world to carry on extreme act. charlie: the taking of mosul, everybody knows the battle. the united states announced today that in some near time in the future that some 500-600 american troops would go to iraq, i assume to dissipate in some way in this effort. what are they going to do? and who else is going to be on the ground involved in the retaking of mosul? gen. petraeus: gradually, the president and the secretary of defense have granted authority to the commanders to embed u.s. forces closer to the front. that authority exists for the commander on the ground. lieutenant general steve

townsend, who knows it well, having fought there as a commander. a really talented commander. if that authority is there, he chooses to use it. beyond that, there is a base being reestablished, at the west airfield, a huge sort of strategic level airfield that in fact housed one of our brigade combat teams and 80-100 helicopters. was101st airborne division deployed. that was a very important base to protect a lot of different power, perhaps even running unmanned aerial vehicles, attack helicopters, perhaps some long shooters on the ground, and so forth. it is a very important element. it is the huge base though. an northquires protection if you put a lot of vulnerable coalition assets on the ground there it is

interesting now that we are approaching 6000, the cap i have seen as the estimate what we may find on the ground and i very much support that. the parent does is of course that we have them there -- the paradox is of course that we have been there, preventing them from keeping 10 thousand troops on the ground when we pull them out before. charlie: what are the rules of engagement? gen. petraeus: i cannot speak to those again. charlie: they go on certain destroy missions? gen. petraeus: it is publicly known that special operation forces are authorized to carry out certain raids on the target. those are offensive in nature. that has been used relatively infrequently, but it has resulted in something very important. charlie: how long is it going to take, do you think? gen. petraeus: i don't think the fight to retake mosul is good to be anywhere near as different as we would have estimated 6-12

months ago. i think the islamic state has been beaten up very badly. and have to know it is going to lose. and soldiers who are in a lost cause obviously start to lose heart. and you have seen reports of islamic state leaders in fact executing soldiers with sought to desert, or not done the duty. that is assigned to our cracks appearing in the firmament here of the islamic state of defense. having said that, taking any urban area as large as mosul, which is had 2 million people in it at its peak, is a very significant undertaking. the enemy will undoubtedly hug civilian population. bac charlie: we know where he is? gen. petraeus: nobody is going to run an army and a caliphate as actively as he has to without is getting some sense of where he is. i am told that we knew about him, and it was when he left his

sheltered area to go up and rally the troops -- charlie: that a drone tritook him out. gen. petraeus: that is my understanding. ♪

♪ adversary, isold he playing a role? gen. petraeus: i am sure he will put in an appearance. i would imagine -- charlie: the taking of mosul.

gen. petraeus: he will not go into the frontline area, but there will be the admiring shia militia, supported by iran -- charlie: putting shia militia who are from iraq? gen. petraeus: yes. charlie: and he will have some connection to engagement? gen. petraeus: there is an individual that was the minister of transportation was recently, who has emerged as sort of the overarching leader for a variety of the shia militia. what is ironic is that he's to be my conduit when i wanted to get a message to the force in iran. charlie: how would you do that? gen. petraeus: i will call them up, tell him to do whatever it was, more substantive than that. charlie: a military term? gen. petraeus: that was a response that he sent me, which was essentially the intent of which was to convey i should deal with him rather than, iraqi

and diplomats or others. power willerican air be in play? gen. petraeus: absolutely. let us remember, what america uniquely brings to this fight, in quantities that are many times the aggregate of all that our allies, partners, host nations can provide, what we bring our intelligence, reconnaissance assets that are manned and unmanned aerial vehicles, precision strike assets that exploit what we are getting through imagery intelligence, but also signals of human intelligence, and the ability to fuse all of this in an industrial-strength way. to bring together all the different forms of intelligence, digitized and to make sense of them, and to understand what it is we're seeing on the battlefield to help our iraqi partners with that kind of may information. andindeed to act on it,

with the coalition partners and with the iraqi partners. charlie: back to syria and rock qqa. that is a longer-term project. six months, a year? gen. petraeus: it is. they will collapse in iraq. is fairly, fairly isolated at this point in time. in fact, we are actually doing over there now is cleaning up some pockets to the south. you have mosul here, a town down here, going including that of. so they have clean lines of communication, from the south and from baghdad. they may do a city over here, that is a bit of a cesspool. literally, won the last cities we liberated during the surge, before turning to the shia arab militia. and concentrate everything on

mousl. the lines of two have been cut quite effectively. it is a very long trip across the desert if you want to get in there. you really have to be a terrorist if you're coming across the terrorist desert. charlie: you and i were at a recent conference when there was a pronounced, iphone majority opinion, that said in syria, we ought to be focused on the civil war first the kind of emergency. there because of what is happening in aleppo. ,and we need to move some way against the tragedy that is taking place. gen. petraeus: this is where rhythmic. this is the humanitarian disaster of recent decades, really. perhaps going back to -- charlie: the images. gen. petraeus: it is barbaric what is going on. what the russians, iranians assad,ting bush are ou

last seen in scale in chechnya, where if you cannot seem to defeat them precisely you just destroy it all. barrel ones in particularly, obviously very precise and indiscriminate. civilians are bearing the brunt. a couple of thousands of people in the enclaves of the eastern part of aleppo that are being circled and just being pummeled. and again, this is an absolute humanitarian disaster of the highest order. charlie: they try to have a cease-fire negotiation with the russians, lasting a week. gen. petraeus: i mean, it is very clear. the russian objectives are very different from ours. whether you want to say we are being played or what the issue is cut their repositioned during this time, replenished and so just went at it. but the idea we were going to work together and focus only on the islamic state, and the al qaeda affiliate, that has

obviously not transpired. charlienor did the provision of humanitarian assistance on those areas that are not under control of the regime. so, this is very, very desperate. they will see the creation of massive casualties that are ongoing, the number is very significant. and there is nothing precise whatsoever about this. charlie: just one quick point about the civil war in syria. hold, theywhich they are being bombed and the families are being bombed. asad'straeus: this is regime forces on the ground, supported by has the iranian guard. and russian air assets, though they have been on the ground as well. charlie: so the question is, do we need to say yes we want to go

after isis, yes you will go after mosul, and yes we are going to go after iraq, wherever else we think it is necessary to carry the battle to them in syria, but right now we had a global catastrophe of unseen order. horror. gen. petraeus: it is tragic. charlie: so, what we do gen. petraeus: is it too late? no, not too late to declare a safe zone were no-fly zone. and indeed, if the regime air force for example bonds folks we are supporting or concerned about, we tell them middle ground your air force. charlie: we can do that? very quickly? sure,petraeus: an and you don't have to enter airspace. that is a question for the administration.

charlie: but what is the rationale, the argument? why we're not doing that now? gen. petraeus: the concern is always, then what? and that is a reasonable understandable question. ok, to even get it with the russians? that is the kind of questions that is caused again understandable reservations. but the fact is where we are right now is absolutely tragic. you know, if you back all the way up, rule number one in dealing with a potential refugee situation is to try and always keep them in the country. we get a no-fly zone to support the iraqi kurds, for the better part of a decade or so following the gulf war until we ultimately went into iraq to take down saddam hussein. this is very doable again. have gotten risks more compensated as each

additional element have assad,ed to shore up have moments where he appeared to be crumbling. and the russian introduction is particularly concerning. so, this is not to be provocative, or it some more ifh the russians, but again, you do not show that you are going to prevent them from carrying out what is an absolute -- this is a war crime actually. i think that everyone now agrees, if you look at the definition, this is the definition of war crimes. charlie: how hard is it to build a coalition? gen. petraeus: we have a coalition against the islamic state. charlie: that is my point. not against the islamic state, but a coalition to do something about the catastrophe in aleppo. assad and his russian helpers. gen. petraeus: numerous other countries that are part of the coalition against the islamic state were part of an earlier coalition that was actually seeking to shore up the moderate

sunni opposition to assad. charlie: unanimously opposed to assad, and still are. they view him as the magnetic attraction that will keep this war going, because of the way the sunni arabs and elsewhere in the world acting and responsible for the death of maybe 500,000 syrian civilians. and the displacement of over half the population, either internally or externally. and you know, before you say let them fight that out that is a middle east problem that they have never gotten along let us for member that this is a region that does not play by las vegas rules. what happens in the middle east does not stay in the middle east. it spews out. sunami this case, the sunot mostee has caused the

trouble for the partners that they have its very thin decades. and that is going to play out over the next months and indeed years. consequencethis a of incrementalism? gen. petraeus: well, the consequence of decisions not taken. but there has never been a guarantee. and the challenge with this is, look, to be there, i was in the situation room table in the beginning without going into what it is i might have recommended. certainly, others have talked about it. memoirs and so forth you can talk about. there were clearly opportunities in the beginning, the challenge was that no one could ever say at the situation room table this will guarantee this particular outcome. the challenges by not having done that -- charlie: how often do you see someone who says i guarantee you if we do this --0 gen. petraeus: not that often. there was considerable risk. but there was considerable risk

of not taking action. it is hard to imagine it being worse than it is right now. this is again a catastrophic situation. charlie: and history is going to judge very harshly. gen. petraeus: i think it will. certainly -- charlie: it did in sarajevo. gen. petraeus: in africa, rwanda. annan and bill clinton have both apologized. what would you do? gen. petraeus: a safe zone as well as a no-fly zone. charlie: not a part of the refugees can go to? gen. petraeus: where you can get humanitarian assistance to them, where you can again keep them closer. charlie: were the armies protect them. indeed.raeus: and we have now built forces that can do that on the ground or look, i agree where using host nations possible to be doing the fighting on the front lines.

remember, the lessons i laid out i think the last time i was here included one that this was going to be a generational struggle.and therefore, our strategy has to be sustainable. that involves the costs, and the greatest of all obviously is the loss of our young men and women in uniform.and we have to take every measure to mitigate the possibility of that, recognizing that inevitably there will be, and there have been, losses. sol be at, modest numbers far. we could do that. airould ground asad's force. it is not undoable at all. charlie: this is a piece by bret stephens and the wall street journal. obama will leave office and the new administration will need its own serial policy, renouncing the fundamental principle laid down by secretary of state john kerry and larav that syria should be a unified country.

that a complex business will involve foreign states, russia, iran, turkey, and the united states. we have not mentioned turkey. and at least five major nonstate militias along with the, assad regime itself. it is a zero-sum struggle for power. and the government cannot accept a copper mines of sovereignty if syria is to remain a unified country in principle, the warring factions will fight as long as they are able to make it. gen. petraeus: look, i tend to agree with that. i have said for some time that i doubt very seriously that humpty dumpty can be put back together again. that is tragic. but it is reality. and the military constantly asks policymakers what is your desired, end? what are you seeking to accomplish? we are very clear that we want to defeat the islamic state and the al qaeda affiliate in syria.beyond that though , it is very difficult to

imagine the concept being held out as realistic anymore, the idea of syria as a unitary state, perhaps on some kind of federal nature is starting i think to define reality. charlie: what are you left with? gen. petraeus: i think we -- that is what the new administration will have to come to grips with, to determine what are the possibilities, what are the -- what is in the realm of realism, as you examine this? i think certainly among this is going to be the sliced up syria at the end of the day. and that is good to be very, very difficult. it is going to be fought over. by the way, when we reflect back on iraq and those who said that and the question that a lot of us used to raise was, ok, tell me how you are going to do that? who is going to draw the boundaries? who is going to displace

hundreds of thousands of people in the wrong area, if you will? by the way, who is going to provide the resources in the case of iraq for the sunni arab region, which now has no energy production at all now that they are under the iraqi kurds. these are very significant issue. and we are that play out in syria. and that could indeed be a vision, the kind of horrific vision, if you cannot get it which is why, comes back again to politics. come back to a struggle, as bret said, a struggle for power and resources. yes, there is religion, ethnic issues, but really all about power and resources. charlie: i'm paraphrasing here, but who was it that said all it is necessary for evil to drive o triumph is for good men to do nothing? gen. petraeus: in some respects, there's a lot more we could have shouldd are currently have done it now, i think it is

imperative to do so. charlie: thank you for coming. gen. petraeus: great to be with you. perlie: general david traeus.

charlie: shimon peres died last night. he was 93 years old. one of israel's last surviving founder foather, devoted his life to building the jewish state. twice primed as

minister and was also foreign minister and defense minister. and 1994, he was awarded the nobel peace prize for his efforts to secure a lasting peace the palestinians. in two thousand 12 and he received the presidential medal of freedom. he was revered globally for his leadership, intellect and his unique understanding of the world. in a statement, president obama out, "a light has gone but the hope he gave us will burn for ever." and for the believe that we can be true to our best selves. he appeared on this program many, many times over the years. and here is a look at some of those conversations. the borders can be solved. shimon: yes, i think so. charlie: further away today? yes.omon: charlie: because?

shimon: because they can see. charlie: they could get a vote at the united nations, recognizing a palestinian state. shimon: the vote without answering the question, you can empty declaration. some of them understand it. and i think -- charlie: others think they have no choice. shimon: but this is not a choice. the other choice is completing negotiations. decision,nts, making being courageous and doing it. this is the best bet today. charlie: why would be destructive to declare the palestinian state? shwhat is the negative of it? shimon: this date will not be able to prevent the west bank from becoming gaza. they will be taken over by hammas.

firing missiles against us. it may be a continuation, of what they expect us to do. you have really to relate to the problems, as they are. and as difficult as it is -- charlie: to look at your career, why would i not think it is possible that you would be in favor of talking to hamas? shimon: i will tell you a story. i was in the international organization, 15 vice presidents. 14, i was 15. members, i was a minority of one. and in that trouble me. theyhe organization, transform germany. they took me to the corner, the minorityan,

wondered you have to listen to the adult. why do you object? i said, i do not object. if you would tell me that there is a democrat and a socialist, i shall vote for him. but as a terrorist, how can you be for him? and to that fact. and we have to stop. you have toredit, start the negotiations. the same should be done with hamas. is, ae hamas as it terroristic organization, shooting a group of people, how can theylatry, do it? charlie: bring me to today's news? you must know something is going on there? shimon: there was another missile. charlie: right. anyone?

shimon: i don't know the results, just the moment. and there were some events. none of them are really shocking, coming in the knifement, killing with a , the mother, father, three children and a baby. charlie: do you sense that time is running out? noton: time is remaining, running up. charlie:w what? shimon: because of the developments, not to disturb them, but to awaken them. i don't speak in that account. charlie: but you are also aware of the demographics? maden was, that is why he the initiative as he did, the same kind of initiatives. shimon: the palestinians begin

to understand it. and they are not assisting anymore the way they used to. if you understand that it mean suicide, and they soften their language. that is the solution of the palestinian refugees, and adjusting a great way, but when i talk with them, they understand. i talk with them openly. difficult, but it is a change of mind on both sides. it is very hard to overcome. actsntervention of bombs, of violence, what can you do? the incidents like the killings, it is terrible. you have to overcome many horrible difficulties. charlie: to the people? shimon: i saying it to the

israeli people. solution for security of israel should include peace. but peace and add to our security. nothing else can. charlie: when you look at yourself in the american morning, giving the strength, courage and opportunity to help be a part of finally making this paeace. the kind of crowning achievement of your service to israel? to continueou have your life. there is no one crowning achievement. i will tell you something. 5-20, i was a deputy in the defense. and i think it is the most unusual man that one can think of. mood, i i am in a good think of it as a mistake, what

it would never think of as possible. i think it is too small. at the time, they think it was a miracle. reality -- back, the in order to correct the mistake, i have to not be afraid. [laughter] to sewt look at the area problems. in anl told, israel is exceptional moment. ringing through seven wars, we made a country that is successful economically, which is unique in its composition, that came back to the land, the language, and still, fighting and keeping its destiny.

look, i'm today that i feel old. charlie: how old? shimon: 88. i started when i was 24. iran over the whole process. -- i remember the whole process. gun, ahave a single single plan. we supposedly lost everything. we did it to ourselves. so, what they want from me? i'm going to lose my heart because we don't have everything? i remember when we had nothing. charlie: dream big, and counter blessings. shimon: dream big and bigger. i think when i look today at the debate about the economy in the united states, the united states actually was all the time the greatest in the world, in the world. for a short while, you had more money than ideas.

haveat the future, not balance of the day. you have to to be more up-to-date in the economy. the coming recession is sensational. totally a different world, so do not be so pessimistic, and short tempered. and america still has the best institutions for wars, for innovations, for entering the secrets of the nature. go ahead. there are some difficulties. i believe i am an expert, of shortages. charlie: but you are also an expert on optimism. shimon: why should i regret? i don't think that matter. what is called optimism -- charlie: you don't look at a campaign you lost and say -- shimon: i never lost a cause. charlie: you never lost a cause,

but you lost the campaign. the israeli people have a chance to make a choice and the rejected me. shimon: i think a leader is mistaken if he wants to be on the top, he has to be ahead. if you are ahead of the people, you are in the minority. so, i think wars, as they should have been, on some occasion we were not ready. but i continued to work. and most of the things i was fighting for became reality. so, i have my own satisfaction in my heart. and i think that is the story of the future, too. don't give up. quitters are not winners. i don't see why you should not quit, and i remain optimistic. with evidence. in my heart. and i tell young people, do not give up.

difficulties are part of life, if you want to arrive in the promised land, you have to negotiate four charlie: deals in the desert. when you speak of these clearly one was part of the founding of the israeli state at a young age, gurion, as you said, can you identify with the young aspirations of palestinians? shimon: yes. i think they have to get a different psat. ast. we started from a different point, they started from a different point. but i will tell you something, which maybe i will exaggerate, but the palestinians, young palestinians today, too, and i can speak with them, and they know my position. i did not become a palestinian. and the young israelis, you know , i was six years as president.

i was the most controversial politician. charlie: why was that? shimon: now, i most popular one. [laughter] why was a controversial? basically, because of the little too fast, too much. and i think fighting is better than satisfaction. charlie: it used to be said, even though that you were a defense minister, and shimon was not a general, not a man of the military, even though he and then defense minister, do you believe therefore he might be softened? : the journals are writing every day these sorts of things. but someone said you are a builder of force, not a user of force. and the two of them, i think since we did not have anything

building the force, it was my first priority. and that was my responsibility, more or less. gurion wanted me to do. we do not have a fourth. he wanted me to fight. charlie: that was your legacy, building of the force? shimon: that was indeed the legacy. i don't work for history, i work for people. and you have to do, at a given time, the right thing, the most demanding one. received criticism. now, they praise everything i do. so what? you know, when i'm asked what is the greatest contribution to the jewish people in the world, they say the satisfaction. a good jew cannot be satisfied.

you know, to be satisfied yourself, you change, you engage. and that is a great thing. and idon't see an end, don't think history is a judgment. i think we have to judge history, not history have to judge of us. because history is sort of blindness. and we are blind more today. we want to open our eyes better, to see longer, to see bigger, to see a long-distance. moses was probably the greatest man in history. telescope.not have a at a time the expectancy of life was half. all the kings of europe, when they had a defect, king david did not have antibiotics.

and have a look at it differently, maybe. and each of us has a given time to contribute, the contributions to the rest, and there is the end of your life. do not waste it. charlie: and so, what do you hope the epitaph will say? shimon: i do not care. for me, somebody will say that he saved the life of one child, that is the greatest moment. charlie: save the life of one child. in this long life that you continue to flourish in, what has been -- brought you the greatest sense of satisfaction, and where is the deepest regret? shimon: the greatest thing that may be satisfied is serving the people. really, it is the greatest

pleasure. i do not think the world is a pleasure, i think to serve is the pleasure. yearsu know, i was for 60 in the administration of israel, minister of this, minister of that, i'm asking what took most of my time? the answer is handling frictions among people and institutions. as prime minister, i hardly held the world. yes, i was president. i do not have an administration, restrictions, i have to help heal the world. [laughter] and these people feel that you serve them, they will respond gladly. if you give in order, people will understand. if you asked them to volunteer they will be so polite. ,how many of them will volunteer? so, the greatest satisfaction is to discover the good and trust.

charlie: do you think you are a good politician? shimon: i am not sure. [laughter] i think i was good for my mission. and i don't know, you know, there is a difference between being elected and college and things which are popular -- and polishing things which are popular. it is a dilemma. if you want to be elected, you know, when i was in the administration i was in israel. and as president, i am the most popular man in the country. i don't know when i was more satisfied. [laughter] charlie: why do you think that is, more popular as president and prime minister? even a you had then defense minister israel seemed, to pay to be to four military heros, like rabin. imon: i don't think that

is. i respect very much psychology, but they do not know. i am notn the stories, surprised by. maybe, i took a little bit a step too much ahead, and i paid for it. and i regret it. but also, i will tell you something else. in israel, in order to be elected you depend on the arabs. indirect elections for example, i get 20%. but then, a change of element happened in israel. i lost immediately. it was the terrorists who decided. and the one thing in life, never complain and never explain. it is part of life. charlie: there are people here in this audience who feel strongly that the passion

that the palestinians have to have a state to live in peace, to be occupied -- shimon: that is my wish, too. we are not there because they want to be there, but because we were attacked. did not go to occupy anybody. we did not have the slightest intention to do so. we were attacked, we bought, and that changed the map. charlie: has it changed israel though, that you still are there, and having to -- shimon: i do not know, really. even the same land, we are separate communities. and that unity feels they are better -- that community feels they are better on both sides, but no matter, i cannot say everybody. maturity inserious israel that wants to put an end

to the present situation, and understand it cannot be done by force. it must be done by agreement. with full respect to the other side, the palestinians. and i wish they would be of the same level that we are. and they can do it. they are not superior people. superiority in that case is to be democratic. superiority in that case is science, technology. and they can do it. it is in their hands. unfortunately, they are split by hamas, the religious iranians. they are victims feared not of israel necessarily. i feel like them. i would like to see every palestinian entering freedom and because itd dignity, does not give me any pleasure to see the palestinians suffer. far from it. and believe me, when i read

about the children that are being killed, i feel like a father feels about every child, who wants it? -- peoplek we should say i am optimistic. maybe. but i have a license to be optimistic, too. israel achieved things that nobody thought they should achieve. high-tech, you, know, the fact that we are only country in the middle east that speaks the original language, hebrew, not the english of the forefathers. i never thought there would be more hebrew-speaking people than danish-speaking people, for example. so, this story is a great achievement in my eyes. charlie: what do you want your legacy to be? shimon: it is too early for me to think about it.

[laughter] [applause] i am more concerned about yesterday. charlie: remembering shimon peres who died at age 93. ♪

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