♪ announcer: from our studios in new york city, this is "charlie rose." ♪ charlie: welcome to the program. we are live from new york, las vegas, washington, dc and santa barbara, california. tonight, donald trump and hillary clinton faced off in the final debate of 2016. took place at the university of las vegas, and moderated by chris wallace. with three weeks left, polls show donald trump losing work trending badly in every state he

must win. here is a look at key moments from the debate. clinton: i have met with women at the end of their pregnancy, get the worst news one could get, their health is in jeopardy if they continue to carry to term, or that something terrible has happened or just been destroyed discovered -- been discovered about the pregnancy. i don't think the government should step in and make those most personal of decisions. donald trump: if you go with what she is saying, in the ninth month, you can take the baby and rick the baby out of -- rip the baby out of the womb prior to the birth. you can say that is ok, and hillary can say that is ok, but it is not ok with me. i am alsointon: what arguing is bringing undocumented immigrants out on the shadows, putting them into the formal economy, will be good, because employers can exploit them and undercut american wages. donald knows a lot about this,

he used undocumented labor to build the trunk tower. he underpaid, and when he claimed -- with a complaint, he did what a lot of employers do. you complain, i will get you deported. donald trump: everything i see has no respect for this person. hillary clinton: that is because he would rather have a private desktop it as president -- puppet as president. the russians have engaged in cyber attacks against the united , have of america encouraged espionage against our people. charlie: there are many more important comments made. joining me from washington dc, al hunt of bloomberg did review. pbswe have politico and weekend. joining us from loss vegas, john heilemann -- mark halperin and john heilemann.

and also the cbs news political director and katie k. and joining me later is the strategist. i am pleased to have all of them here. i will begin with al hunt in washington and go around the clock and get response and reaction from this hour and a half debate. changedubt this debate . single vote, solidified bases the only thing memorable was donald trump refusing whether to say he would abide by the election making richard nixon, who actually may have had agreements, look like charlie rose. it was extraordinary moment, but the rest of the night didn't change a thing. i think the outcome is really vague now. i can't see any way trump can make up what i think is a seven or eight point gap. and this contest, if peter said that the trunk race is like the daytona 400 driver without breaks and if faulty steering

wheel, it may careen from place to place and occasionally you close, but you know it is never going to win. tonight solidified that. charlie: kathleen. kathleen: i don't disagree with anything else. it was very much a non-game changer. i was excited when donald trump created the new word bigly. twice. him say that there was a low moment when he would not necessarily can you concede the -- election to hillary clinton should she win. that led to what became hillary clinton's best moments. she gave a very passionate defense of electoral history and how important it is that we have to go on from one to the next with respect. most people that pay attention to politics and are familiar with the positions reiterated tonight, i think hillary came

across as very steady and serious. to trump, in his favor, i suppose he didn't explode, and as thin-skinned as he has been in the past, although he did occasionally refer to hillary clinton in a way that wasn't quite gentlemanly. at one point, she said, he is a nasty -- he said, she is a nasty lady. charlie: and now to las vegas. john dickerson. john: i think the story of the night, if they came down to one moment, was when donald trump said he wasn't sure if he would accept the outcome of the election. i think the reason, and there were plenty of other moments, the question of the trump campaign, will it be a change campaign, and a lot of the energy behind his campaign's people want to change washington and see him as their champion.

but there is also the question of chaos. jeb bush told him the chaos candidate. when you start to question one of the fundamental principles of the peaceful transfer of power, because it helps you politically , then that moves over from just reading a change candidate to more of a chaos candidate. a specifics response, and whether it will be legitimate, but also just his habit of behavior that, in a pinch, this goes to temperament is what republicans are emailing with, talking about. thing to sayotic in response to that question. charlie: down and santa barbara. if you talk about the debate other than that moment, apart from that, mrs. lincoln, how was the play? i would point out al gore in 2000, and you will year this from the trump campaign, this

comes down to 537 votes in the state, there may well be a contest. he keeps talking about a rate system. -- rick system. for the first 30 minutes, i thought he came to debate like a regular candidate. he had a low pitched voice, actually cited this affects like the heller decision, had a good line when hillary clinton was talking about the russian acts. he had a very nice. off the open borders. and then it was like watching something on the stove begin to simmer and ultimately boil up and spillover. he began to interrupt. once again, provoking donald trump inevitably gets the same response, which is he defends himself to the point where he did not even remember to attack hillary clinton for helping to -- even when women chris wallace gave him the opening. have got here is a

debate where if we had six more, it is possible he could actually cave like a real candidate for 90 whole minutes, but you know, sharks got a swim and that's have got to fly, and that is -- batds have got to fly. >> i think he did better on style than he has ever done before. i thought it was his best debate. despite doing better on style, i agree with jeff and kathleen and john. the comment about, it wasn't just that he said, i am not sure i will concede the election, he'll most made light of it all. i will keep people in suspense, like it is a game. if i were advising him, i am not, he should reassure people and say i have the temperament to do the job. i may have said crazy things, but reassure them tonight. and i think that statement alone, not just not willing to

concede, but making joke of the chaos -- charlie: setting his own rules. afteris a reminder that november -- many of us had hoped that if trump were to lose, the chaos with sort of fade. i don't think that is the case especially after tonight. it is another reminder the months after this election will make this sort of obama years and the tension between president obama and the republican congress seem sort of weight and functional. -- quaint and functional. charlie: maybe it would be two separate splits in washington, democrats and republicans. >> you can already see is starting to emerge on the republican side. donald trump is setting up something after the election that doesn't involve being president and does involve continuing to support the agreed people. eived people.

maybe it is a new channel or something. based on what he is doing in the rallies, saying publicly, but he did tonight, said he would or would not accept the results of the election, because he wants to continue to lead this agrieved movement. progressives have come to mind, and brought bernie sanders. i think of hillary clinton tries to get things done in washington, which could involve republicans, it will be difficult, because progressives will say, we are not here to compromise or cut deals. and we expect to get ours. that will be difficult. win,ect she is going to and she will have in all likelihood, once trump continues to melt down, one house of congress she will still have to deal with. charlie: republicans are still in control in the house, and paul ryan is still speaker.

is he prepared to deal with the caucus john boehner had to deal with? >> it will be a much different caucus because the size of it will shrink. the freedom conference, freedom caucus and the trump troops within congress will actually grow. he will have a much different congress to difficult. charlie: is it difficult? >> absolutely. got ruledht years, we by the obama administration. we are not to get rolled by the clinton administration, especially against the backdrop boehner never had to deal with. the republican leadership that continues on his constituents of republican members -- on is constituents of republican members of congress being fed this narrative that the election was rigged, stolen. how is republican leadership

going to negotiate with a president clinton when the members of congress, republican members of congress, are being told every day hillary clinton's election was illegitimate? it is a very dangerous dynamic. ♪

♪ charlie: we have been joined now

by mark halperin and john heilemann. reflect where you are in las vegas and what happened in the room and how it seemed. mark, i begin with you. mark: i think it donald trump had not suggested he would not accept the results of the election, his team could have come out of your heart and. he had his best debate, which would not have done to change the debate, because she was flawless. she evaded some questions, but she was very positive. she had genuine passion that played quite well for a lot of americans. the problem donald trump has, as effective as he was with his message of change and hillary clinton being a part of the status quo, by saying he would of theept the results election, which advisers are trying to walk back, he has left a giant headline that he will be at-bat. it will block out any of the progress he might have made on some issues. charlie: why do you think he did

it? mark: i am certain it is not the answer reversed. -- rehearsed. he is constantly gaming things out. pence rightmike before the debate, mike pence did a round of interviews including bloomberg and others in which he said, of course. ivanka trump speaking with nancy gibbs of time magazine said, of course. i don't know why he did it, but it will go down as a long string of in it to google things he has done. -- long string of inexplicable things he has done. john: i would like to at least hazard an opinion or a guess about why he said it, which is he believes it. you says it from his heart. i am of the school of oakham's razor, the guy who spent the last week talking about the

election being rigged, it would be stolen from him, saying things that were manifestly at odds with voter fraud in america , making these arguments over and over throughout the week. his advisers and surrogates have tried to walk that back and say the media is biased against him. every time he says that, he sends out a tweet and stands up and repudiate that and says, he's talking about voter fraud. now he gets asked a question directly, and i am sure kellyanne conway and people around him prepare him. would not necessarily results, which is a massive transgression against democratic norms. none of us in our lifetimes have ever seen this. is horrible, fact because it is the only thing anyone is talking about to hear

now and tomorrow. he may go on saying this because he genuinely thinks it is rigged. mark: secretary clinton was effective when she pointed out, whenever he loses at anything, he says it is rigged. iowa caucus, wisconsin primary -- john: emmy awards. mark: he even claimed the emmy awards were rigged. charlie: catty k now joins us. everybody is talking about can't accept the results of the election until he will see. katy: i hate to see -- bee miss goody two shoes about this, but we are doing homework, and hillary clinton did homework going into this and donald trump didn't. on a whole range of issues, she had compelling responses as we heard on how she could come back and say, he said everything was rigged, how she came back with answers about what she spent in her 30 years in public office.

she had a strong answer to women about women's health issues and have donald trump denigrates women. throughout this debate, she was trapped, she was ready, i thought she was -- she was prepared, she was ready. i thought it was one of her stronger performances. all anyone will talk about is that donald trump suggested he won't accept the result of a democratic election. i have just and on the bbc, that is what they are talking about around the world. the idea for other countries that you have a major candidate in the american election not accept the results as when you are held up as the beacon of have -- of how democracy passes from one to another, an extraordinary day in january, donald trump suggests he won't accept that, that is troubling to a lot of american allies and other powers as well watching this. charlie: let me go to jeff and

talk about one of the issues. all of you jump in, the relationship with putin. how do you see that coming out? jeff: it was absolutely remarkable because once a month -- once again, hillary clinton took what could have been a reliable -- could have been a liability for her, leaked statements on open borders and various other things that caused embarrassment, flipped it immediately to the fact that russia was trying to influence elections, and trump once again -- i don't know putin, he is not a friend of mine. what is wrong with getting along m? it meant in effect, you think ironically the last several years of politics, the democratic candidate is accusing republican of being soft on russia. that is a flip from several decades back in the old days. it was to meet another example of, where, by that time in the debate, from was beginning to

feel agrieved. when you pick on him, substance goes out the window. he has to defend himself. it causes a situation where hillary clinton, who could have been vulnerable about what was in many of those leaked documents, managed to make it a case of an autocratic regime is trying to underscore the election. mark: it almost seemed likemark: hillary clinton was all most at the point where she knew what he was going to hit her with. we watched this together, and we 33e remarking it took her minutes to get donald trump to start to lose it. that is about as long as it took in the first debate. he had a good 30 minutes, then he got more anger and reactive and behaving badly. in this debate, it was that moment 33 he started to lose it. she was like a prize fighter who just kept hitting and hitting. charlie: when i was working with -- >> there were a lot of debates

during primaries. , it wasof saw over time like pushing certain buttons. six or seven buttons you could put that were an attack on him that he was sensitive about. regardless of opportunities he had to move away from the attack and go on the offense himself, he always engaged in. he always took the bait. and secretary clinton has figured this out. you see this in every debate. it took a half hour or so, but she did push the buttons successfully, and he went down. charlie: also the question of, what are you doing for 30 years, she said this. you on the other hand were discriminating against others. >> i was hunting down bin laden, you were hosting celebrity apprentice. >> on the issue of abortion, any surprises there? in terms of the language trump used? >> the language was pretty

harsh. late-term abortions are an emotional, divisive issue, but hillary clinton made a good point when she said, look, they women toies to have -- have babies in romania. in china. the government has no place in that decision. it is hard to disagree with, even if you are pro-life. that is a legitimate point. i did bring his point of ripping the child out of the womb and all of that, it is intended to cause emotional response, which it would among the people who share that position. but we know that donald trump has not always held that position. was appointedhe supreme court justices to overthrow roe v wade, this is what they have always wanted. i don't think a lot of people in this country do want that. you send it back to the states, see how difficult women have trying to get the health care

they need. i am a pro-life person myself by the way, but i am not in favor of government intervention. education is a much that her approach to changing the way people think about -- is a much better approach. charlie: what about that debate? al: i hate to be a broken record. i don't think that changed anything. there is a whole body of political science that says elections and general elections don't matter. i never agree with that. i think going from gerald ford 1976 to barack obama 2008, the campaigns really do matter. i think this is the exception. if you look at the bloomberg poll, donald trump's negatives are 62%. that is incredibly high, 12 points higher than hillary clinton from a year ago.

they were 61%. hang seng and the nbc wall street journal poll. nothing has changed because trump can change -- can't change. andything said by jeff others, they are right. even if he had not made that just ridiculous assertion about not accepting the outcome, i think it would not have been a good night for him. we would have been right where we were before. she is ahead. i don't see how he comes back. when you asked earlier about why he would not concede, i man, henestly, this couldn't actually entertain the idea that she would be the water -- winner. and saying this, he would have to somehow look at her or have an question on his face that was somewhat humble and somewhat offering no resistance. he could not possibly do that. not only because she is his

political foe but she is a woman specifically. charlie: mark halperin, where does this election go now, this being the last big event? mark: i think donald trump is going to spend at least a day trying to clean this issue up. various advisors of the campaign have come into the sitting room and said, we will accept it if there is no brawl. we have to be careful about not prejudging it. he will have to deal with that for a couple of days. the data for most republican private shows stakeholder catching up. they show trump with a loader -- lower ceiling than people thought he could have, hillary clinton expanding in red states, the trump campaign going from narrow to today,. perhaps follow it with

advertising, perhaps he will write a check to increase advertising, but it will be hard without the arms of a national event. it will be hard to cut five points off her lead. as mark and al hunt both said, he came into this debate, donald trump was very far behind. not a little bit. he has been a little bit throughout the entire race. he was a lot as this big debate. his only try was to give the biggest performance of his life and change dynamics working against him for the last several weeks. whatever you think about this, he clearly did not do that. for the reasons we discussed earlier, created more problems going forward. so i think that, it is hard to imagine apart from some gigantic earthshaking tectonic plate movement, i can't imagine what would alter the trajectory we

are currently on. we have 2.5 weeks now of ugliness. charlie: catty and then john dickerson. katty: remember what happened after the first debate. in many ways, this reminded me of that first debate. there was more substance in the first half hour and then there was in the first debate. it was after that first debate that we really saw the drop off in donald trump's poll numbers, even more so than the release of the access hollywood tapes. it is not implausible that to extrapolate we can see the same thing again and donald trump's poll numbers declined even further as a result. he needs to turn it around and give himself a boost. i am not sure if he did himself more harm. charlie: john dickerson, where does it go from here, and what happens to trump if he becomes more desperate john: we have seen a trajectory, the more desperate, the more

destabilized. the facts on her side, she talked about previous instances. the rate talk is not only about talk is not only about inciting supporters but looking at polls in the community. he tries to put pressure and create an atmosphere around the election. but the next immediate thing we will see is a number of republican leaders deciding what their response is to this. what is paul ryan going to say, mitch mcconnell? we have to figure out what they are going to say, and then when they respond, will donald trump respond? he spent time attacking paul ryan. him off only takes message, but another stitch out of the republican cause in the election. there are other races going on that also have to deal with this

. and the final thing, this is cumulative. if he were to become president, it will be moment after moment like this. you can't have these constant directions, the sense of predictability throughout his campaign. this upset fear about that predict ability. -- predictability. >> i was in suburban philadelphia where the latest polls, trump is 28 poles behind hillary clinton in the white collar counties. look at pat toomey, duplicated in state after state in this uncomfortable with saw, he has neither endorsed or norton announced trump. if you dople like -- not vote for trump, we will not vote for you. suburban philadelphia voters say, you have got to distance

yourself, or we deal -- we do not want to support you. so the feeling grows that this race for president is really over, you have got control of the senate that will hinge on how republican candidates manage to walk that tightrope. it will be, one of the more fascinating dynamics. charlie: one thing i know -- >> one thing i know of real concern to republican party members, if trump continues with ,his election is rigged riff win poll workers and people that make elections work are determining the outcome of elections at the precincts and county level, they are not just doing it for the presidential line. they are doing it all down the ballot. it is true that donald trump probably lose this, and republicans will retain majority in the house. cm saying -- so him saying this is rate, -- rigged, does that

mean republican people back in congress? so if rubio read -- wins his reelection, does that mean his reelection is being delegitimized? there is a lot of incentive to really shut down this, you know, message. distance himself from it. rob portman in his senate debate spoke out, marco rubio including his debate. the seeker ryan. .- speaker ryan many republicans have danced around trump quite a bit, elected officials. this one makes them really nervous, and they want to shut it down. charlie: what should hillary be doing? was doing ite tonight. we spent a lot of time talking about what donald trump did

well. he prepared more but he will spend time cleaning this up. hillary clinton had an outstanding debate. she needed to do two things, run out the clock and not make negative news on her side, and she did that. number two, give people a sense of what it might be like if she is president. is it possible for her to lift her vision above the attacks and partisanship? she goaded trump quite a bit, but she also talked about coming together as a country and doing things. she started to term the question. i think that was a big moment. it wasn't a dog fight or a catfight in this as much for her. she would go to trump, but she stayed on message. she was very prepared and reassured. charlie: i want to come to the issue of pressing the vote. john dickerson, clearly there was effort to talk about

depressing the vote. has that field? -- failed? will that have any impact? john: a couple of things. democrats think when trump talks about the election being rigged and encouraging voters to keep an eye out, what is trying to do is get them to up the temperature for any democrat voting, to say, if a democrat doesn't want to go to the voting booth because there will be attention and people watching, it will be chaos, that is the way some reading it. there is, you know, some political side will say, when they feel their vote is being threatened, they will work harder to go vote, even harder simply than to vote for whoever the candidate was. that will work both ways. i guess we see how this plays out now. thing, this debate is

being watched in states where voting,le are already 10 votes in north carolina. you have a six week long election process in iowa and ohio. on nevada it starts on the 22nd. different stuff from debates in the past. people can take impressions and move on them right away. the clinton allies in north carolina are working very hard to bank the women's voters, the women's vote in north carolina as fast as possible to take advantage of the effect donald trump is having. you saw her speak in the abortion section and talking about his comments on that videotape to women. it was mainlining to her strongest constituency, talking about what it feels like to be along the and have these things said about defending abortion rights in the supreme court decision. you felt there he was really narrowcasting to that constituency.

was anyone surprised -- go ahead. katty: she looked straight into to womenpoke directly voters. the message she had was donald trump not be trusted with health, he degraded women. he believed the -- the little women. -- belittled women. that was a powerful moment. that was the strongest moment she had in this debate, the strongest possibly in any of the debates, given everything we have gone over in the last 10 days going into this with allegations of abuse and sorted s this hasrdidnes sunk into, she did a good job talking to women saying, you cannot trust donald trump with the things you hold most dear, reputation, dignity and health. , johnthink that was

talking about them trying to rally women voters, they will be doing that tomorrow with that clip. ♪

♪ , weree: john heilemann you surprised hillary clinton would like to see the nomination of judge garland go forward? ,ohn: i was not surprised charlie. one of the things hillary clinton knows is the most

pragmatic political sense. barack obama nominated hillary clinton -- merrick garland to supreme court. she does not want to annoy him at this point. and the last thing she wants in the early going of her presidency, given everything going on and what is shaping up firsta better -- bitter term in office, given the rawness of this election, she does not need a big polarizing fight in her first 12 months. so because she went to stay on good terms with polluted -- president obama and try to avoid what could consume her first 100 days in office if you had to nominate someone herself, she means it. she will have other chances to nominate, and she would be happy for him to fill this one seat. very quickly, i think this is why you will see money being poured into senate races by

pro-clinton packs. if republicans hold the senate, they could be answering staff asking her recount. john mccain said we would be united for whoever holds the senate. couple of in the next weeks, to desperately try to get the senate democratic, may be as important as what she does to elect herself in the next couple of weeks. charlie: i think president of united states, barack obama, was quoted saying it is not over until it is over. that is true in politics. looking at what looks like a clinton victory, how big could this victory be? what are your thoughts and concerns of where his feelings might be at this time, if nothing changes? >> trump's feeling? >> i think she is on a path right now to do probably at

least as well as obama did in 2012. hillary clinton is. and she has the potential to do much better. what obama did to where johnson did? >> if you had a couple of states and add more states, you have the possibility of arizona, georgia, north carolina, if you just add north carolina and arizona, and you keep georgia -- georgia starts getting competitive, it could be a real blowout. : i think she will win by a lot more than barack obama wo by four pointsn in 2012. i think the danger for republicans is if he gets close to double digits, there is no way they'll keep control of the senate. the house could be in jeopardy. i doubt that, but besides

victory in that sense, it doesn't matter. there isn't as much ticket splitting. to go to jeff greenfield's point, i think what republicans negative campaign trump's running might end up hurting their vote more than it hurts the democratic vote, because you have suburban women in philadelphia who say, i am sorry, i will not vote for him. those who might not have -- those who might have voted for cap to me are not voting. and those who are mad at him for notfully -- mad at him for only supporting donald trump will not vote for him. as a republican, i am worried about the senate. even i, who am pretty panicked or as others call me, a bedwetter, i am not worried about the house. republicans can lose a lot of

seats in the house, but had democrats known they would be in such a strong position on year ago, they could have really raised a war chest and recruited great candidates to run in districts to come into play because the top of the typical -- ticket would do so badly. no one anticipated this. candidates weren't recruited. there just aren't real democratic candidate. al: i agree. i do think it is even a topic of discussion today, shows what does raise has become. charlie: i will be right there. i understand there may be 20 changes, there could be 30. >> let me get one point. what happens at the end of these things, if somebody starts to look like they are missing -- losing, there is a snowball effect. if al is seven or eight points behind, the house doesn't switch. if it continues to eight or nine or 10 or 12 points, it is a

different race in two weeks. it probably won't happen in the house, but it could happen. if it does, they are in play. katty: one thing i was going to of theink of the irony scenario you are all painting of what looks like a wave election for hillary clinton where she wins bigger than barack obama, and yet, she is one of the most unpopular presidential candidates we have had in history. isn't that extraordinary? hillary clinton, loads by much of the country -- loathed by much of the country, is on the doorstep of this massive electoral victory. it is extraordinary. god knows what republicans are thinking as they watch this. they must be thinking, if only we had had another candidate. somebody who was absolutely [indiscernible]

[speaking simultaneously] this is unbelievable. i republican candidate, just about any one of them, would be up 10 points. it is absolutely astonishing what a missed opportunity this is. charlie: go ahead, jeff. jeff: i personally know three people, and they are on the left, who swore -- they don't swear on bibles because they are on the left -- but they would never vote for hillary clinton the matter what. one of the things they most dislike about the other party is becausee been forced donald trump is an existential threat to everything. >> to the previous point, will the democratic administration interpret this as a mandate? this is a clear repudiation of trump and everything he

represents. >> they recognize the repudiation of trump. she has got to bring people together as opposed to saying, this country is getting behind in major numbers like they did with the two obama elections behind obama's agenda. >> i will try to take another job at that, charlie. the question is if there is a clinton administration, do they say -- the mandate is one question, but the other is, do they press the case the donald trump was created by the publican party. hillary clinton clinton has been pushing this a little on the stump to help democratic candidates, but if you really grinds it in afterwards and tries to delegitimize republicans by saying here is a grad -- bad candidate, but it grew out of a party that allowed this to fester inside of it, that would be a real hardball. the alternative is she doesn't

do that. she reaches out, allows people like paul ryan and marco rubio, if he is reelected, to put away their embrace of donald trump. that is perhaps a way of the developing relationship with people who will have a hard time working with her because there are voters that will not be happy if their lawmaker is on the republican side to deal with hillary clinton. charlie: and appointing republicans to her administration if she wins too, . >> if you look at what hillary clinton did when she got to the senate, she said i will work across the aisle and get things done. i am going to build relationships, have some trust on the other side so that when we can cut a deal, we can cut a deal. was presidents come in with an approval rating in the 60's and 70's when they get there on day one. it is very unlikely the approval rating will be even at 50. so she will be in a different position in terms of her ability

to claim a mandate and necessity for her to figure out how to move some things forward. republicans will be able to dig in and do what they have done the past four years to barack obama and waste an opportunity to get progress made for the country. i am hoping they won't do that. i hope hillary clinton, as you see tonight, a sense she would like to get something done as opposed to just going into gridlock. problems she has is, anything she can get paul ryan, if he is the speaker, to agree with, bernie sanders and elizabeth warren are not going to agree with. she will be caught in a terrible squeeze. it will be nearly impossible. anything paul ryan agrees to, he will be stuck on the other side. there are effectively two parties on the left and two parties on the right. they will have to figure out how to live together.

kathleen: paul ryan will regret his decision to take the speakership. those people will not do anything. they don't believe in leadership, they don't believe in governance. they don't believe in opposition. that is the way it will be if hillary clinton does become the president. they will not operate at all. poor paul ryan, who i assume has always had higher aspirations, is going to be stuck. pretty much stuck. and meanwhile, the thing i think is most concerning to everyone out traveling a lot and talking to voters, several across the country, whether they are so concerned about is afterward. donald trump has paved the way for opposition to rise up. he has said we will take the country back one way or another.

all secondwe are amendment pros around here. begins nexts january if not before. charlie: jeff, i think you suggested maybe she should be reaching out to the trump voters early. jeff: one of the things i think that has been missed here, and it may just be the clinton campaign populations -- calculations, it would have made sense for her to spend a couple of days with people she knows aren't going to vote for her, even to the extent to saying to them, we have to acknowledge that we blew it with a significant segment of the american people. we thought trade would be win-win for everyone. there is a couple of million jobs lost they can point to in these trade agreements. some acknowledgment there is

work to be done, in some sense we have failed, and that is why donald trump was able to get as far as he did. i certainly think it is critical after the election, if a republicans do what they did to obama, gather on inauguration night and say, he gets nothing, then at least she will know that is the terrain she is fighting on. point, coming into office with lower approval ratings for any president-elect, i think there has to be a real honest to god gesture. as her campaign said in the wiki leaks, apologizing or acknowledging that kind of failure on the part of her own party, that is not in her dna. charlie: what have we learned about her from wikileaks? disclosures about these emails? john: we have learned what we already knew, she is a very cautious and careful politician.

the system that surrounds her is cautious and careful. to shore upying views on trade, deliver from her views on the keystone pipeline and the email server. muchst tracks -- pretty tracks with whether she was moderate were progressive. easing in hell exchange -- i'm using email's exchange while she says -- there was an amusing email exchange. if it was difficult for the public to understand whether she was moderate were progressive, that was echoed in the emails. they track with basically what has been the sort of public view of hillary clinton, and so i don't think -- we get to see it

way, her realer speeches and her excerpts to wall street. she is more conservative than the person who ran in the democratic party primary. everybody knew that. charlie: bernie sanders. yeah. we see what has been the conception of her, but it hasn't been black and white. charlie: quickly to katty and then john heilemann. what will happen with the election turning out? what happens to donald trump? katty: we have had reports he is thinking of setting up a tv empire. risk to thee is trump brand at this point, he has performed so badly in the course of this election, he has always presented himself as somebody who is a winner who could be a loser.

what does that do to trump victorino's? it doesn't help him. you are hearing reports of people canceling rooms in trump hotels, conference bookers stop this. that will impact his brand and business. ofhas got a long period redeveloping herself -- himself in the only guy and the business empire. his rehabilitation -- reputation is damaged. charlie: john heilemann, if you were writing a book about this, if you are by chance writing a book -- go ahead. john: i never like to disagree kay, but the trump brand has been transformed. i agree 100% to the old trump brand, hotels and stuff he stood for our undermined. if you wanted to be the old

trump, he would try to rebuild the brand. i think the new trump, the old breitbart trump, the trump campaigning for months now, as if all he cares about is his base, not doing anything a normal presidential nominee would do, not reaching out to voters to win the election, that donald trump is positioning himself to be the leader of something. i don't know if that is a television network or online network or something else or just a movement, but he's building a potent base of tens of millions of people who is trying to say, hillary clinton is the leader of a criminal enterprise, international conspiracy. the election is being stolen from me and from you. from this environment, where everyone has noted on your panel, hillary clinton with such high negative ratings, donald trump is setting the ground to be the figurehead for

anti-clinton opposition in the next phase as we go forward. we see him trying to do that afterwards. the one thing i know is donald trump is not going to go quietly into this night. ♪

mark: i'm mark halperin. john: and i'm john heilemann. with all due respect to donald trump, it is never a good idea to argue with someone who buys ink or rocket fuel by a barrel. treat witha humorous the hashtag #senddonaldtospace. company, so be capability is there. ♪