announcer: from our studios in new york city, this is "charlie rose." charlie: glenn back is here, one of the country's most outspoken conservative media people. his show on fox news ran until 2011, when he founded blaze tv, a subscription-based online streaming network. his syndicated radio show can be heard on over 400 stations nationwide. he left the republican party in 2015 after accusing it of being insufficiently conservative. he is been an outspoken critic of donald trump. we will talk about that and more. i'm pleased to have glenn back at this table for the first

time. we have been inviting him for a number of years. glenn: how are you, sir? charlie: i'm good. it's good to have you here. as yogi berra said, it is not over till it's over. what is it over? charlie: -- glenn: depends on what it is. charlie: it is an election that hillary clinton wins big against donald trump. glenn: i have been wrong about donald trump and his performance almost every step of the way, so i am not willing to count him out at this point. but people are really in a different place than even i thought they would be. frustrated,they are they feel like nobody is listening to them. they have been feeling this way i think since george w. bush. the left felt this way under

bush, and some of the republicans and the right felt this way under obama. the right really felt like nobody was listening, nobody cared, nobody understood. themg, prodding, accusing of being violent or racist when they just wanted to be heard. what has happened is donald trump has tapped into this, and he has taken the small number of people on the alt-right that are energizedd they have this movement. i think because people are in a position now where they unfortunately -- some want to bring the whole thing down. i don't know how it is going to -- charlie: you are the best person to ask this because you know the conservative world. what is the alt-right? glenn: i don't know if you can

really describe it yet. it is a growing movement. russia.eal roots in is somebody that really people should be paying attention to. you will see that 48% of trump supporters believe that putin is a good guy. is clearly not a good guy. thishis comes from neo-eurasian movement that is happening over in russia and starting to spread into europe. i have been watching it for a while. when i was on fox, i warned that you would see the neo-nazis start to rise in europe and it would jump to us and it would infect the right. and it has. charlie: it sometimes comes under the notion of being a populist movement. glenn: what has happened is you have combined here in america the neo-nazis and the klan for

the first time ever. i'm sure you saw this four weeks ago, the neo-nazis, the clan -- klan and white supremacists all signed a pact together to stand together. they feel this is their opportunity. ,nd so you have united them plus this populist movement and nationalism. and it is a toxic, toxic group that -- you know -- charlie: and the anti-globalism, which is a populist movement. glenn: that is part of the neo-eurasian movement. charlie: which we saw in the brexit vote as well, fueled by immigration, the loss of jobs. and if you like nobody is listening. glenn: there is an underlying thing -- there is two pieces that are important. first, the underlying feeling i

think with all americans is, i don't feel like i really belongs anything anymore. i don't know what the country means. i don't know where we are headed. i don't necessarily feel comfortable in my church, my party. what i'm saying is, people generally don't feel comfortable and no there is something -- and know there is something they can count on. you don't feel like they belong to anything. they don't feel like they are being listened to by anyone. the third part is, they don't feel like they have control over their life, their business. charlie: and things are going to get worse. glenn: they could. charlie: they fear that. they fear their children will not have as good a life as they had, and they look at declining income standards and worry about that. and their jobs are not secure. and therefore, they blame trade deals and other kinds of factors.

glenn: here is where we can show stability, and this is where america, if we are going to ,urvive this as a great nation if we are going to reverse the trend -- the inevitable trend that happens at the end of empires -- if we are going to reverse it -- and i think we can -- we have to know the difference between authenticity and transparency, know the justicece between the that we have going on now and real, true, equal justice. we have been a stable country. the reason people invest in us and the reason we are the leader in the world is because we are stable. we don't have revolutions. charlie: and because we value rule of law. glenn: i don't think we do anymore.

it started with the financial bailouts. i'm not too big to save. you are not too big to save. charlie: the financial institutions are. to fail. to big to fail. glenn: too big to fail, yes. on top of it, instead of saying, ok, we're going to help you, but now you have to make yourself smaller. we may be bigger. charlie: here is what i don't understand. there is the nativist and fascist and fringe elements, we would call it. you think they are becoming -- how are they connected to donald trump? and did prompt seek them out -- trump seek them out? otherhe birther stuff and things, was he looking for a base he thought could give him traction? kant, to quote immanuel

there are many things i believe say, but il never shall never say the things i do not believe. i am weighing how much more damage will be done by telling you what i believe. charlie: tell me what you really believe. glenn: i'm not sure donald trump , as wellrt as that read as that. i'm not sure that he is a deep thinker. , andnk he goes off his gut his gut has served him well for what he does. i do think there are those around him who are deep thinkers. stephen bannon is one of them from breitbart. he knows exactly what is going on. he has said breitbart has become a platform for the alt-right. when they explained it, they explained it and said, the greatest -- the voice for the alt-right -- i can't remember his name now, but he is a very spooky guy, and his wife is the english translator for dugin --

alexander dugin in russia. they know exactly what is going on. i think there is enough -- and i have always hated this, i have never believed in this, but i do believe it is true here -- he speaks in dog whistles. whether he knows it or not, he does, and the people around him definitely do. charlie: he being donald trump. glenn: and bannon knows exactly who he is appealing to. is putting together a coalition, whether there is an eventual night where the collision goes away, butalition goes he knows who he is bringing into the tent. the average american does not. this has been really concerning to me. i warned about this three years ago, the influence of dugin. he was pouring money into church organizations in america about gay marriage. said, youthis out and don't know what you are getting

into bed with. you have to be very careful who we were standing next to. you may agree on one thing or another, but you better look into who they really are, because yeah, sure, i may believe in taking care of our borders, but if it is a neo-nazi , i'm not going to bond with you. whatie: so what has -- does the seeming trend in this election suggest you that america has said no, no, no, we are not going there? or hasn't found a messenger simply, in their judgment, because of the range of factors, unacceptable? glenn: i think the right has been -- and rightly so in many ways -- has been trained that hillary clinton is the worst thing that could happen to us. charlie: trained by? glenn: by the media, by the

parties, by people who look for ratings or votes or -- charlie: and you are on the record of saying that is not true, that she could be the worst thing. glenn: i think the worst thing that could happen to us is that we would lose ourselves, who we are and our principles. charlie: can you imagine voting for hillary clinton? glenn: i can't. charlie: what would you do? ?ight in -- write in glenn: there is two candidates i am ok with, but neither of them -- i am not now nor have i ever been a supporter of hillary clinton or donald trump. charlie: back to the point of trump in this connection, are you suggesting using the word dog whistle that somehow he is not aware of how he has been brought into this? he does not get it, and he is intoxicated by all that has happened and intoxicated by the crowd, the rallies -- because he

talks about himself as a movement, the leader of the movement. there is speculation that that's what he wants to do if in fact this does not work, and that he and stephen bannon and others -- there are reports that he is having meetings with investment bankers. do you buy that? glenn: i think that may have been the goal from the beginning. never thehis was anticipation of winning, it was about branding and creating an empire that would have a contained in sustainable and in -- sustainable influence on american politics? glenn: i think that was bannon. he said this was a uniting movement. i thought trump thought this will be fun, i will give it a whirl. i will make the last six months. i don't think he saw himself winning, and i think he has put himself in a position now where, if you look at the financials of

-- empire, his hotel empire when they start changing the name of trump hotels to -- what ,re they calling it now, sky-on scion, there is trouble for him. charlie: to have called him possibly a sociopath. what is the indication he is a sociopath? glenn: have you seen him during the last year and a half truly someone who could not help him? truly connect on a human level and say, this has made me stop, think. i'm deeply sorry for what i have said. is know, a sociopath

somebody who does not really see the human experience in anyone else. and i have not seen that in him. i have not seen him deeply affected by the human condition. charlie: no sense of vulnerability. glenn: none. charlie: frightening. what do you make of the fact that he refuses to say that he -- like everybody else -- will abide by the results of the election? is that go back to whatever you are talking about in terms of sun's of authoritarianism, which you have raised -- some sense of authoritarianism? was thended people, it most important thing coming out of the third debate. glenn: it is much more important than who wins -- is are we going to be able to come back together? and i think this is a logical startedm -- that we

even during the first clinton. the right started playing the game then. al gore, his supporters questioned that he was selected, not elected. then the right again with barack obama in the birth certificate, and now this. charlie: the al gore thing came after the election, not before. glenn: no, i just saying we are upping the ante every time, and we are losing faith in the system itself. we cannot do that. charlie: the drumbeat is the system is corrupt. that is the drumbeat everywhere. that is the drumbeat everywhere. police acted stupidly, before seeing what the facts are. let's look at who shot who, when, why.

let's have trust that there is a -- charlie: a rush to judgment, you're saying. glenn: more importantly, charlie, i'm taking a lot of heat for it, but it has to be done. i have to stop looking at the other side and saying -- if anybody wants to know how i feel about hillary clinton, nobody was asking me 10 years ago when i'm clearly on the record how i feel about her -- they want to know now because it furthers an agenda. what we have to do is -- charlie: they also want to know because a lot of people who could not imagine themselves voting for her are prepared to vote for her because they look at the choice here. they are republicans, independents, she and donald trump are both unpopular candidates. and they could imagine voting for her. the election had drove them to that point. i think there are a lot of republicans that were not on board with trump at the

beginning that are now looking at her and they are voting for something they would never dream of doing. charlie: trump. glenn: right. so we are in this place where we are making it about the other person, instead of about our principles. what we have to do, charlie, is we have to take the beam out of our own eye. if we are going to restore our nation and get back to the place where the rest of the world will trust us again, the only way to do it is not for media to make fun or to point out the wrongs of the right, but for the leaders in the right, in the conservatives, to stand up and clean out their own house first -- clean out their own life first. same with the left. charlie: clean out their life means what? what to the conservatives need to do about their own life? glenn: i think the damage that is being done in the church is

right now is far greater than jim and tammy faye ever did. that was 20 years ago, and look how long it took to get past that. but also, you have a very popular pope. don't you think he is popular? you're saying the catholic church, they are in the midst of a very popular pope. because he seems authentic, because he seems transparent. glenn: he also seems to say, i will call up the sins of my own people first. that is what has to happen. i'm getting a lot of heat for not talking about hillary clinton. but anybody who listens to me, they know how i feel about hillary clinton. what is important now is how we feel about us in the decisions we are making.

what were they can help -- and i understand it now from the press, i really do -- i think the press is so freaked out by donald trump that -- let's just not really look at the wikileaks things, let's just not look at these scandals and the fbi, let's not look at it right now, because they are freaked out by donald trump. when that passes, if the press wants their credibility back, they must go back and look at that and say, ok, we must stand for equal justice. if it is wrong -- even if it furthers my side -- charlie: when you look at wikileaks, what does it say? what every learning about the way power works in washington? that is part of what you seem to be saying. system, and we understand how the levers of power work in that system. we understand how there is a kind of affinity among people

who are part of the system. excusing --.an is an excusinge of the players on both sides -- if it is my side. and we have to stand for the rule of law. washington said that we are a nation of laws and not men. of men, ofa nation people, and not laws. washington clearly said that, and that is why he did not want to be king. i think we have royalty on both sides. charlie: you mean bushes and clintons? glenn: know, the whole thing. is happeningat with donald trump right now, all of the accusations -- the people who are defending him and those

accusations are all the people that did not accept those same 1990's.back in the back in the 1990's when it happened to bill clinton -- they were all saying the exact opposite. but because they are a nation now of men and not universal laws, they will say it doesn't matter. if you are a nation of laws, and it mattered then, then it matters now. but if it advances our argument, we dismiss it. that has to stop on both sides. ♪

charlie: there was a media frenzy about bill clinton. number two, there was a vote of impeachment in the house. glenn: to look at the pattern of -- charlie: so there was rule of law taking place. glenn: yeah, yeah. i'm talking about the general argument at the time was -- it did not happen, it did not happen, and then, ok, it did happen, but it does not matter. and the right was saying, it did happen, because look at how many accusations there are. charlie: you mean the women who came forward to accuse them of things that were not -- and the same as donald trump. glenn: so you flip it, and his argument is -- what?

a vast left-wing conspiracy? it is the same argument. it doesn't matter. we are not electing a pope. it is a vast left-wing conspiracy. it is the same thing. that is where i think people are tired -- they are tired. charlie, you know anything that we as a people have spent more time on in the last 10 years been arguing about the president, one way or another? this -- this one, bush, obama, the one. seems like all we're doing is arguing about the president. what could we have done with our time? charlie: you could also argue -- what could we have achieved if we do not have gridlock in washington? glenn: yeah, what i'm talking

about, however -- charlie: because of the power, the resources of the country. because of all the possibilities. and with an urgent need to look at everything from infrastructure -- glenn: i think we are talking to different things. -- two different things. you are looking at the political picture. i'm looking at the civilian or societal picture. you are right. look at the things he could've accomplished. but i what -- but what i want to focus on, and this is why it is more important to talk about what happens after the election -- is that people feel as though they meant it. they meant it. not everybody, apparently,

because we learned this with the trump's movement. they meant it. i really am against these things, and i'm for these things. so i stood up, i risked in called names. i did things that make me very uncomfortable by going to rallies. i'm not that guy. a lot of people felt that way. charlie: for the record, you supported ted cruz. glenn: yes. so we did things as families only to have the republicans betray us over and over and over again. like -- well,lt they don't really believe in anything. they believe in their system and their jobs and what they want to do, and they are using us. the sentiment of people across the country, who are disenchanted with everything, and believe -- glenn: correct. what we have to do is find

leaders in and out of washington, leaders in ourselves, that say, no, i do stand for these principles, and their unwavering. glenn: those leaders should come from churches, from --? --? glenn: everything. everywhere. when you think about the kinds of things that brought you some much attention on television. charlie: when you think about the things that brought you some much attention on television, on fox, on the radio, has there been evolution? i know you are growing and evolving being with responsibilities to your family, your country, yourself. you have got an empire in texas. any ofd for you, but has this, in a sense, changed because of what you see in the politics affected you personally , so that it changes your own attitude about what you do with yourself and your time?

glenn: charlie, it was -- "rolling stone" just an article. -- did an article. that iid in 2006 or 2007 was the fourth most admired man, between the pope and nelson mandela. charlie: i did see that. glenn: then a year later, i am glenn beck, the firebreathing radical. i don't think any man can go through that swing without changing anything. and to also be the guy who is hated by half the country without deep, profound reflection. -- amany of those things? i any of those things? charlie: are there things that you did that you now regret? like what? what is the best example?

you say, i wish i had not been there, had not done that, had not fanned that flame? glenn: easy. reading the president's book where he talks about the white culture, hearing him say police act stupidly, getting on fox news and saying -- i think this guy has a deep-seated problem with white people. charlie: you said more than that. glenn: i think i said he is a racist. don't remember. i said bad things. i own them all. wrong. wrong. right to be able to think, to search -- i was searching for -- who is this man? where is he coming from? you read his book, he talks about the way the white culture will do you. where does that come from? charlie: i assume from his experiences. glenn: correct.

but how much of a role does it play? to be able to question is important. to say those things as onppantly as i said, to pile -- not good. charlie: you were never part of the birther thing? glenn: never. charlie: fast forward to this campaign season for glenn beck. you have praised loudly michelle obama enters beaches. glenn: a speech, yeah. charlie: the convention speech and the speech about women. glenn: yes, i thought they were very good. charlie: you praised her because you thought that she was --? glenn: the last speech she gave -- charlie: she gave in and basically said "it hurts me to my core --" glenn: the speech she gave about donald trump and being

uncomfortable as a woman to her core i thought was really well , andered, spot on important. is, she alsohere praised beyonce. is thathat speech, but -- is beyonce a good role model? and this despicable. i think there is some place in between here that we need to find. but i thought her speech spoke to women. charlie: you admired her here, but not here, as i have some differences. glenn: correct. charlie: hillary clinton, let's assume she does when. even in texas, you suggested to me when you set down that she was doing well in texas, could win texas. glenn: i know.

i'm not sure she will. charlie: i'm not sure either, and we don't know -- glenn: but for it to be in play speaks volumes, not about her, but about donald trump. and anyone who says it is the people -- because this is the charge right now -- it is people like you, glenn beck, who are standing up and not getting into the boat -- it is about donald trump. it has to stop being about the r the d, it hasor to be about principles. if these -- if donald trump was running for the democratic party the people who were standing him up now and heralding him would be slicing him to ribbons. he is a more than imperfect and flawed messenger, because his message is the wrong message. charlie: therefore, back to the point you made at the beginning

when we were talking about who it is -- people who feel left out in america. , howeeing where they are they feel about their circumstances, and that the system has not worked for them, and they don't feel like anybody is listening to them. would you recommend they vote clinton? if she is not created on january 20, as a first order of business, she should speak to those people and say, i'm listening? you did not vote for me necessarily, but i'm here. glenn: if i could quote george washington again -- deeds, not words. charlie: what would be those deeds? glenn: i don't know. but it starts with cleaning out your own house, making sure -- doing things like -- the irs has been weaponized, and it would be

weaponized for the right as easily for the left. charlie: meaning being used for political purposes? weaponizet's de- something. do something that hurts your party cause. not your principles, but your party cause. put it on the table and say, in the spirit of coming together, it is important that we restore this principle. and i don't know if anybody is willing to do that, but i think that is what has to happen. words won't cut it anymore. somebody has to be bigger. somebody has to self-sacrifice. charlie: that to you. justin -- there was trump might beat changing his business and going out of the sand into this, or something. after the election, are you

going to be any different in terms of how you are today in terms of how you communicate in radio and television and all that? is any of that going away? glenn: no, none of that is going away. i am read tooling for the future , as every business should be, knowing that if you don't re tool every few years, you are going to be out of business. as far as message, i hope i'm different. charlie: what is the patter within the conservative community that is likely to be played out after the selection, if things happen the way polls indicate? most: i think the important question is the question that cavemen asked of the fire. who am i?

who are we? to ask thatwe need as individuals, as families, as communities, as parties, as a country. who am i? what do i really believe? what is worth dying for? what is worth living for? what have we learned over the this200 years that we see is the essence of who we are, this is what made us great, this is what made us stable, this is what brought us out of darkness and the cold into warmth, into this. charlie: people have different views than you are saying the same thing. they should come together and talk, as you say -- first, speak to the issue, and then do something. which is the deeds. thank you for coming. glenn: charlie, thank you. charlie: back in a moment. stay with us.

♪

charlie: sarah jessica parker is here. she stars in the new comedy series "divorce." it comes from creator sharon horgan. church playas haden a couple who decided to end their marriage after almost two decades. she returns to hbo 12 years after the series finale of open most sex and the city or go --

"sex and the city." here is a look. >> how many times did you have intercourse with his french penis? -- m, around 30, 32? >> what the --? 32? you had sex 32 times? charlie: i am pleased to welcome sarah jessica parker. that is what brought you back to television? being able to reflect on how many times you had seen or -- whatever. jessica: sort of. the landscape, the territory -- it was an idea i had about four years ago. generally speaking, i was curious about exploring marriage

and long-term, committed relationships. i think i was looking at friends in my life in the various stages they found themselves, whether the conventional institution of marriage or just having long commitments that were substantive and meaningful. it was interesting and curious to see people at various points of reckoning, contemplating big decisions -- divorce, affairs. such a rich it is landscape of material. charlie: did you then look for that idea? look for the right kind of piece of work that you could sell hbo on? jessica: yes, exactly. a sense,this was in something that came from you wanting to find the right thing to return to television, the right vehicle? jessica: no, it was among

several things i was producing and developing, my company at hbo. it was just an idea among many that i was interested, but i found compelling. it was not until much later in the process that it was revealed --me that hbo was assuming or very generously hoping -- that i would play the wife. and that was a big decision to make, because i knew what that meant. charlie: what did it mean? jessica: it meant, as you know, an enormous commitment. yearst a lot of wonderful , and those years included 80 to 100 hour weeks in front of the camera and behind it, and i loved the process of producing television, but it deserves all of you. and when you are given 30 minutes on hbo, you better be

freaking deserving of those 30 minutes. that means you cross the finish line bloody. developedre that we this story and the idea, the more it became impossible for me to say no. and frankly, i was not generous enough in spirit to offer it to something else. it was the first woman -- it was the first woman since playing carrie bradshaw who was as complicated, as human, as willing to illustrate shortcomings and triumphs and be disappointing and reliable, and a deeply committed person and somebody who is -- has surprisingly bad judgment. all of that makes for a very exciting -- charlie: what does it say about marriage?

it is difficult, comp located, there are affairs? jessica: i think it says all of that. i think it is also a portrait of marriage now, a marriage that is struggling financially because of our economy, because of choices that the partners made. it is a marriage that is, located by infidelity -- that is licatedted by in -- comp by infidelity and revelations of financial fraud and children. and yet amusing and ridiculous. and it is also an examination of an attempt at divorce and what that means for most families of working americans, who are not super wealthy, who are middle class and trying to do it right and be decent and honorable in the process.

who feeds onvorce, divorce, what does it do to your friendships? i think there is a lot to say. charlie: we see all of this year. -- all of this here. do we see her coming to the revelation that divorce is the only way? jessica:. yes and the pilot episode, she is at a dinner party, a seemingly benign event, and there is a monumental moment between molly shannon's character and another character, and a gun is called and the shot is fired. it is sort of the undoing for frances. she finally reveals that she has felt this inertia in her marriage, which has felt like somebody stepping on her chest. as she says to her husband emma as the body is being removed toind her, that she wants save her life while she still cares about it. -- and heme is like

is devastated. they have been through counseling, married 17 years, they have recommitted, all the things that people do when they take vows and are serious, mature people. she feels she can no longer do that. and then it is revealed that she is also having an affair, which is awful and even more brutal. the tables sort of turn, and he goes from being a terribly sympathetic husband who wants to convince her that she is in shock and they still have a devastated andg assertive combative. charlie: this is where frances learns that robert once had an emotional affair with an old friend. >> hang on. you are talking about your old college buddy, kathy to santos, argue -- aren't you? >> i don't see how naming names

-- >> infuriating. >> i did not say -- were onwas a woman you the phone all the time with and e-mailed, and she even went on a fishing trip with him. >> there was a group trip -- >> when i got suspicious and jealous and everything, because it just seems weird, he convinced me that i had trust issues. >> because you did have trust issues. >> the point is that i started seeing a therapist to find out what was so wrong with me that i was freaked out about my husband and his old platonic college buddy. >> we were study buddies junior-senior year. >> and i was right to be suspicious because he was having an emotional affair with her the whole time. >> it was not an affair. we didn't -- >> so what? i want every single detail. if i'm going to be able to move forward, i'm going to want every single detail of the emotional

affair you had with kathy. just like you wanted from me. >> ok. first of all, you are right. it was kathy. >> i know. charlie: all right. you cast him. you are the executive producer, you wanted thomas haden church. jessica: we were on a phone call, sharon horgan and are producing partner, and he was the name i offered as a long shot. he had not worked in television in about 20 years. we did a movie together -- six or seven years ago. we did not play opposite one another. it is called "smart people." i loved working with him in the brief moments we had, and i'm a longtime admirer. we went back-and-forth, he is going to say no, and then i said, maybe we should -- let's

not say no for him. him the material, and i wrote him a letter and asked what he consider it, and he read it and said yes immediately. it has just been fantastic. charlie: what do you think he brings? jessica: he is such an exciting actor to work with, because he brings all sorts of treats and gifts and surprise. is very serious about the work. innately asee, he is funny person. he likes to find humor, but he is also a person who feels things rather deeply. and i think he brings a sort of tenderness, a sort of heartrending simplicity, in a way, to complexity. he gets it to its essence, but

he is also deeply committed to the work always. for me, to have somebody who is equally invested, who understands the privilege -- charlie: i assume because you are the star of this that it was essential that you are the one who had the affair. for story development? jessica: know -- i think it was more the story dictated that. only,e: let me interrupt because you knew who the character was, so the story dictated it. jessica: i liked it, and it was not my idea necessarily, although from the beginning, i thought she should be having an affair. i thought it was a story that me real and existed around and that this idea of a woman having an affair -- which in this way, this town, is not

something that had been examined -- look at it more in 70's -- 1970's cinema, you used to see more of that idea. but it was not really a comedic look. i just like that she had made this -- some might argue -- really bad decision, early times, televised -- poorly timed, ill advised, and that she had to quickly sort out what it meant to her in order to salvage her family life. charlie: children are involved? jessica: to children, 10 and 14. that just makes things much more challenging and complicated, and for frances, the stakes feel inordinately high because her husband, as it happens, has -- toened to use them

reveal, to share with them what a bad person she has been. as he says through the door in the last moment of the pilot episode, he is going to make them hate her. which is pretty much the most devastating idea a mother could hear. charlie: to drive a wall between the children and mother. jessica: that she feels complicit, even in the conversation and threat. charlie: i am always interested in what is the moment of inflection. you say, to save my life while i have a life. jessica: while i still care about it. charlie: what does that mean, because it is interesting in terms of how people -- i think people who get divorced think about it for a long time. when they reach a breaking point, when they reach a moment when they have no other choice. jessica: i get is a difference -- i guess it is a decision between the things you know don't matter and the things that

you. frances describes it in a later -- she talks with her parents when she finally tells the news to her parents that she feels enormous disappointment and failure. she talks about being in this marriage and recognizing that something was not right. they talk about having already been to counseling and recommitting, but she talks about this idea of feeling this emptiness -- as i have described, a sort of inertia, like somebody is stepping on one of your limbs, you are not able to breathe completely. ,he kept hoping he would see it and when he did not see it and she would bring it to his attention and dance around it, he simply was unable to hear it in a way that was meaningful to her. i think for her, what it means is she feels like a part of her is dying.

and i think that is what ultimately people do feel in divorce -- it is no longer a place where you are thriving. i think the best marriages and committed relationships -- i think what most people probably tell you is they feel better together. they feel like it is this fruitful journey. their fellow travelers. they have this investment in one another, and she no longer feels she can invest. and she has given up everything, which is also expected and right -- you do. that when there seems to be no return, or when the other party seems to be kind of blind to the contributions and diminishing of them, i think a lot of smart people feel like they have to salvage what is possibly left in front of them. charlie: this must occupy all of your life now. jessica: it takes up a huge, wonderful chunk. but it is also a finite period,

so i know there is this big, demanding, muscular thing that sits in front of me for four to six months. , andoots in new york city a very graciously let me be at a parent-teacher conference. that is the beauty of television. , and really a calendar eventually there is a blueprint that works beautifully. it is time-consuming, but i love -- i love being back at home at hbo. i did not realize until i was there how much i missed television. charlie: what is it about television? jessica: i love -- as strange as this sounds -- i love the limitations, the urgency. i love this idea that potentially you are in this alternate universe where you are

playing some of the elves, sometimes spending more time being another person then you are your own. you keep learning about this person and the people who surround this person. ♪

john: i'm john heilemann. mark: and i'm mark halperin, and with all due respect to colin powell, who endorsed hillary clinton, we call that dog bites man. first, just in time for halloween, and obamacare scare. republicans are on offense after the obama administration announced health insurance premiums under the affordable care act will go up by an average of 25% next year. many are dropping out of state marketplaces.