♪ >> from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. author and is an correspondent for "the atlantic" where he writes about politics and social issues. his latest article is about president barack obama. it is called "my president was black: a history of the first african-american white house and what came next." it is great to have you back in america. congratulations on the national book award.

how was paris? >> i can't lie, i loved it. it the uniqueness of paris or something even more? >> things that may sound superficial that are very important to me like food. the food was great. alienist -- alieness of it. i like how when i want to down the street and people talked, i had to struggle with what was going on. . like that you may want to understand one person at one point and then

someone at another moment. of the language and the culture, i felt like i was learning every day. did you see from a distance america any differently. i did. i am hesitant to talk about it because i don't know how much is personal and how much is true based on a real knowledge on the culture. hadlie: people who have not your experience will talk about your experience and give you insight into it. >> the one thing i am sure about is the relative absence of handguns shape of the culture. i am pretty core -- i'm pretty clear on that.

when my son would get on the subway every day to go to school, the idea that he would get shot, it just wasn't part of anything. , and to be clear, there is a minority population, but there is no notion, or considerably lesser notion that the people they interact with are going to have handguns. we talk about violence between the police and black communities and violence in general, you have no idea whether this person is armed or not. they did not exist in the same way. charlie: when did you come back? june and i went away again. i live here in new york and i wanted to ease my way back into new york. charlie: how did this come

about? -- ? atlantic;" >> i had written about the president from afar and then i was invited to briefings of conversation. that,ays had in our mind if the journal that started out as a journal of abolition, that we could take some consideration of our president. charlie: you think he is been a been aresident -- he has great president? >> i do. that is not mean i am without criticism or everything he did was a great. past eight years, i have been radicalized.

i had to when i wrote this piece. this is hard for me to even say. i had to judge him against other president. i cannot -- i had to judge him against other presidents. i had to take consideration of what presidents have done throughout history. charlie: were you surprised when you did that? >> lincoln is considered one of our greatest presidents. when i think about lincoln i go -- i think about going from a log cabin and having to become an intellectual embracing the abolitionist point. as late as 1863 or so, lincoln is still embracing this idea that black people can be shipped

out and immigrate to somewhere else. he is a great president. you can go through this with anybody that you think is great. it is the same for obama. charlie: we will talk about how you think he is unique as well because he sees white people differently than you do? >> i do. i think he does. white peoplees different than most black people. charlie: that is your point? wounds ofds of -- the racism for the president are individual. he has instances that he can talk about, but when you are born in an african community -- african-american community on the mainland and you are part of a deeply segregated group, the

-- the wound is not just individual, it is collective. you carry those rings with you and barack obama didn't really have that. carry -- you carry those things with you. brought obama didn't really have that. and he waswas white living in hawaii. you can be biracial living in chicago or baltimore and she can still carry the wounds. he lived so far away that it was a distant experience for him and he did not have that trauma at

an early age. child, ever by a white person called the n-word. the first time it happened to me was when i was in paris. some crazy person addressed me in that way. it did not wound me at all. it was an individual thing. of wayot feel any sort about it. if i had been a blind person who grew up in paris -- if i'd been a black person who grew up in paris, i would have been offended. but it didn't really shaken me. eight years of president obama coming to an end, how do you assess that and

he talked most about the dignity of the man and his family. no scandal. you can have policy differences but he said what rose above that was his sense of a man of dignity. >> there is part of me that would like about to not be important. i think even getting into that discussion, there was a double standard there. himlie: they said it about because they might have expected him not to be? >> not the speaker. i think of the obama's were aware there would be a double standard. they were rising to a certain level. part of it is who they are but they also understood, as the first black family to be in the

white house, he had to adhere. same with the jackie robinson, he couldn't just the a great baseball player. charlie: and you think that president obama and michelle obama understood that themselves? >> yes. and i'm holding on for a day that will not be true. expressed thee idea of how he came from a different place and therefore had a different attitude. assess his legacy beyond that? >> i think it is significant. there is a place in the piece -- and againabout this is the tension between assessing him as a president. will useut saying we the power of the federal government to roll back on the war on drugs.

they mentioned there were thousands of people in our prison system that were supposed to be granted clemency. by that time they got to maybe 1000. that was only 10% of the people they said they should be able to get out. when u.s. assets it seems like a failure, right? but then when u.s. assets compared to every president this era before in the modern --he commuted the sentences of more people than the last 11 presidents combined. you wish you done more, but when you compare it to what the actual reality of presidential power, i think it looks pretty good. charlie: you open the article with a quote from scott

fitzgerald "the great gatsby." " you are worth the whole dam bunch put together." >> i love "the great gatsby." it alludes to this notion of good, which is this notion obama has put out for young african-american. history will agree with that fitzgerald quote. i think people will really begin to see -- it doesn't mean the flaw will go away, but i think we had a good man. charlie: will it make it easier for another black man or black women to become president --

black woman to become president? >> yes. like you said, if this had been a scandal plagued administration, it would have made it significantly harder. i will be straight about this. i think if barack obama had composed himself like the current president-elect had composed himself, first of all, i don't think he would've been president at all, if you been in office, it would have made it significantly hard. charlie: let's talk about the title of the essay. >> i like that you are asking me about the title. original idea was to pull from music all the way through but i couldn't come up with enough. that should be, and they -- and i wanted there to be a mournful

quality to the piece. i was looking for things that alluded to that. al green is saying rightove will make you do . wrong.e will make you do i wanted to conjure certain emotion. not just make factual statements all the way through, i wanted people to feel something and music is a big part of that. on -- hehe worked walked on ice and never fell. dmc.hat's from run insanely difficult

to be an african-american and to be the titular head of america itself. in all its mixed up policy and hastage and the way he tried to remain to that sense of yourself and be loyal to the american people and be a representative of the entirety of the american people. it is a deeply understated how difficult that must be. that is the walking on ice piece of it. charlie: i decided to become part of the world. >> that is pulled from the president on -- own autobiography. there is a point where he goes to see the university of huayi' team.aii's basketball

he goes to the university of hawaii and it is starting five african-american players. he is not just watching basketball. he talks about the little things that they do, so when he starts playing basketball in the local area with the african-american population that is they are, he is learning culture as much as he is learning basketball. one of my deep questions was why the president, who at that point waslived around the world, biracial, had a white mother, why he moved towards black identity. in some respects, you don't get to choose about race. in other respects, if there was anyone who had a way out -- charlie: he had a choice?

>> when i asked him about that, he didn't think he had a choice. with the quote he actually used was, i never wanted to look in the mirror and not like to i was. i have, throughout history, known people who have tried to get away. and that ise passed part of the african-american experience. people trying to get away. he did not do that. culturalmerican identity is really strong. in a positive way. of pull on youd that most folks feel. charlie: you still have to go back to the hood. >> i went down to north carolina

with the president and he said with a group of young african-american and latino boys. that is part of the mentoring he does. each one went through their own story of how they had grown up in the hood and they had done something bad and come back out of it. at the is the president said, is there anything i should take back to washington? spoke up and said, we go through this and we can do all this, but we still have to go and we have tod deal with all the problems are there -- that are there. it was interesting to talk about how you can change the dynamic of what folks are going back to. charlie: and how t -- and how he changed it?

into how he had helped with reparations and rings like that. things likeand that. charlie: he rode the tiger. >> i spoke to david axelrod and he thought the campaign that donald trump is running will ultimately come back to bite him. he said they have wrote the tiger and it will come back to him. it didn't quite work out like that. ♪

♪ how disappointed, the ,rgument was made at the time my guess is he believed he could have one. won. he couldn't believe this campaign was taking place? >> i think he definitely leaved he could have -- he definitely coulded -- believed he have won.

when i talked to him after, i got optimism. barack obama trademark optimism. he said we are going to be ok. charlie: he said some of that publicly. >> it was hard to square with some of the campaign rhetoric he had offered up in the months before. that's held that this was not just another republican candidate, this is a unique threat to this very institutions. write i have music of that i played. while i was writing, i played a ton of marvin gaye. i want to write and make people feel things in a way that make people feel this way.

aen i started this, there was ourningor maybe private m happening in the african-american community with the idea that this moment is coming to an end. charlie: what happens to barack obama now? >> hopefully get some peace, man. hopefully he will do some of that. charlie: he is a writer at heart? memoirs.l write his i expect that to be a fascinating book. imagine that he will be made politically active. charlie: i think the defeat of hillary clinton make that -- makes that even more imperative.

whatdon't think he will do president bush did. to texasi will go back and live a different life and paint. >> i respect that, but don't think he will do that. charlie: essentially that is what he has always wanted to do. now?y stop charlie: can you explain one of the central issues having to do with his presidency, which is the idea that many people that there isof disbelief that somehow, if he outgoing, somehow more, i don't want they, if yes

spent more time -- if he had spent more time trying to seduce the republicans, he would've gotten more done. is it something in his character or because, as he said to me, he didn't think it paid off? >> early on he thought there would be some kind of compromise and the lesson he drew early on was that there wouldn't be. i think health care was a deeply instructive. i think going for a while with the debt ceiling was deeply instructive. he makes the statement that the fever has broken. then it clearly doesn't.

he drew the conclusion that he didn't have a working partner. the republican party being held hostage by a small group was a big problem. think -- there are people who say president clinton , they really like interacting with. -- interacting with people. i don't think president obama is like that. charlie: after watching him speaking and he knew how to do it well, but he was almost floating above it. it -- like he was seeing

he was caught up in the moment to the extent that he knew how to do it. >> it was a skill. charlie: it was a skill, but not a skill that sucked him in. heemployed the skill, but was not of that. there was something else i was told repeatedly and it wasn't that he was trying to be president for his daughter's. s. for his daughter charlie: what's next for you? >> i don't know. i honestly don't know. -- i don't want

another eight years like this. this is a huge journey for me. i was raised in this is deeply politically conscious home. i have been asking questions about african-american identity and interaction with the broader country all my life. then suddenly there is an african-american president and i just so happened to be at the "atlantic." i brought all those questions to bear in this political -- in this particular moment. i'm so grateful to have been here. quite aike i figured bit out over the past eight years. charlie: about what? slavery? legacy of >> that was a huge question.

it was also basic stuff, like why does my neighborhood looked like my neighborhood? why do i feel safe here, but when i go over here i am constantly looking over my shoulder. yrk is the world the way it is for african-americans in this country? and be largely because of obama i was able to write a series of stories, mine the reporting, the academy and bring to bear all that to answer my own questions about the world mple it was a tremendous, tremendous privilege. charlie: is that what it's all about, answering your own questions? >> it should be but i think as the prophecy, standing up on high and differing -- delivering it for other people 78 charlie: "my president was black," on the making and

unmaking of the white house. >> pleasure to be here. thank you. charlie: backing in a moment. stay with us. ♪

charlie: jim and tom steyer are here. jim is the founder of common sense media, the nation's largest nonprofit dedicated to children's issues. rother tom is retired from a

billion-dollar hedge fund he started in 1986, to focus on climate issues. for their dedication to democratic causes they have been dibbed the liberal answer to the koch brothers. i'm pleased to have jim and tom at this taken. we were wondering where you were because your brother was leer. and i said where are you? >> standy -- standing by the phone waiteding for an invitation, charlie! [laughter] secretary clinton: what do you think of 2016? >> i think there were two overwhelming issues in the campaign that are obvious in retrospect. one is that the majority of americans just feel as if their economic opportunity hasn't improved for as long as they can remember and they're worried about it and they don't think their kids are going to do better and they think that's not the american way, we've got

to shake that up. that's the number one thing. number two thing, they think that the political insiders don't care about them, that there's a reason why they haven't done better for as long as they can remember and the reason is that the game is rigged against them. the rules are set up for the insiders. charlie: this is the american public you believe believes that? african-americans? latino americans? all americans believe what you just articulated? >> i think that it's different in different parts of the population. t that overall, the economic insecurity part is something that i think people feel really strongly and i think if you look across society there is a sense that the insiders are not paying attention to everybody. that, you know, if you think of government for the people, that that's not what we're having. we do not have nearly a just

enough society and i think people are angry as hell. charlie: that explains some voters. how was this influence -- election flunsdz by the two candidates? simply that those people you just described defined donald trump or all the controversy about him as a change agent? >> i think there is in quite that the people were aware -- i think the american people are spart and that they're aware of all the issues about donald trump, about his history, his attitudes, the things he says, his lack of policy and they decide, at least enough people decide he's going to shake things up to give him a majority in the electoral college. i mean we have to remember that hillary clinton got over two and a half million more votes than donald trump, so the majority of americans did not buy that but in the electoral college, he was able to get by as just, however untrustworthy,

however much you don't agree with him, he is going to come in and be something different and we need something different now because we're not being listened to. charlie: so if it was joe biden it wouldn't have made any difference? he's been part of the system, in congress since he was 29 years old? >> you can never tell. it's impossible but the two things i said, that americans haven't had a raise, the bulk of americans haven't had a raise for 35 years is true. deborah: -- charlie: but you're a liberal democrat. why didn't you recognize that and use that influence with the candidate? >> well, what we were doing in 2016 was going directly to voters to try and talk about vishes, to register voters, we registered over a million and to try and get as many involved in the process as possible. when you do that, you don't talk to the candidate. you act independently. we did our own thing. went directly to voters to try

and inspire citizen to citizen conversation. charlie: but a person who has influence in the democratic party has influence. whether a pac does anything, you have influence because of how you have defined your life as a leberal democrat. >> well, let me say this. you know us as being climate activists but actually the mission of our organization is to prevent climate disaster and to promote prosperity for every american. so we've known from the very first day that the only way that we will have a more just society, including dealing with environmental issues, is if every american's economic interest is considered in every decision. charlie: do you agree with what he said? >> i think my brother is pretty smart! charlie: you are an activist in your own way? >> i am. and we've done many things together. for children and the stuff that

next gen does. i think what happened is you had two very unpopular candidates and for reasons that are fair or not fair and tom is right, ultimately there was a certain number in the electoral college that wanted to throw a hand grenade into the system -- espite all the eag negatives. i think hillary clinton, fairly or unfairly, was not a popular candidate and lost because of that. i think the voters who really made the electoral college thing happen didn't like hillary clinton and at the end of the day said we're voting for change. charlie: did jim comey have anything to do with that? >> definitely. i'm a former prosecutor. a couple of our good friends are prosecutors in the southern district with comey. think what happened, hillary

had strong momentum at that point after the three debates, which by most if not all the debates she won, then the email issue, which was this inside he beltway stuff, got raised 10 days before the election and when you look at how tiny the margin was in many states, i think it was a factor. remember, we live in california where hillary clinton won two to one. we live in a different parted of the country where people are just should be aing their heads, saying how could this possibly happen? i think comey changed the momentum at a critical time and reinforced all the negatives for the people that didn't like hillary clinton in the first place the charlie: do you think bar ab -- barack obama will have to play a more dominant role in the democratic party?

>> i think he's going to have a prominent role. he would have a very different role if she were president, for darn sure. i think there is going to be a different question, to be honest, charlie. charlie: which is? >> which is, where is the passion going to come from in the democratic party? because i think when you look at this election, there are a lot of reasons why this election turned out -- out the way it did and you guys have turned on -- touched on a few of them. what's also important ask the conclusions about why this election happened. that's almost as important as why the election happened. there is going to be a fight for the soul of the american people, for the soul of working people in the united states of america and some of that is going to take place in the context of the democratic party and so i think that that's going to be something that's going to be played out over the next two years as people talk about what are our deepest values? you know, what are the things that we absolutely stand for

that we need to stand up for and are being attacked? charlie: i thought one thing michelle obama did so well, better than anybody i've ever seen was to make the case for children and what an election means for children. >> i thought she did it beautifully. phenomenal, and became this moving figure to so many people across party lines. i've own hillary clinton for 27 years. she's a phenomenal child advocate. the hillary clinton we know is deeply passionate and knowledgeable about kids. she's given her life to that. by the way, that is what i think will happen with hillary clinton right now, she will go back and be the extraordinary child advocate. but that didn't happen -- -- with michelle, it was real and i've done events with hillary clinton for 25 years and that

did not come across. the other thing i always mention, he she was my student and teaching research assistant, chelsea. that's how we really got to know the clintons. she's a remarkable young woman. my heart goes out to them at this moment because that's such a brutal loss and painful thing but they're a remarkable family. as my brother said, they've done great things but as visionary and thoughtful as michelle obama was around child issues during the campaign, and i love that, hillary clinton is the real deal on those issues too. >> clinton used to say, "i feel your pain," that was his mantra. people used to joke about it but the fact is he did convince corking -- working people in america that he did care about them, that his heart was with them and he understood -- charlie: i think that came directly from having to run for

governor in arkansas. >> yeah. but my point is in 2016 people don't understand that hillary actually does care. it didn't come across. she was portrayed as very much an insider, a policy wonk, not somebody who has a heart that, you know, you were asking about joe biden who obviously is somebody who emotz and i think that -- charlie: especially with working-class people. >> yes. charlie: were you surprised to see al gore? go to trump tower? what's that about? >> you know, it's, i -- i know that al is incredibly sincere on climate and i think that he will good to the ends of the earth to try and make a difference and id think he went to the ends of the earth to try and make a difference. [laughter] charlie: and do you think it might help? >> look, i think what we're seeing, you know, from the trump administration, the, you

know, the president-elect, is a lot of conversations and i lot of tweets, but there are some facts out there. he is appointing people. he is, you know, relying on people on the e.p.a. transition, there's talk that he is going to, who he's going to appoint now for e.p.a. today so there are some facts out there and if you believe that personnel is policy, we're seeing personnel with history, with specific beliefs about energy and climate and, you know, that is in no way reassuring. so do i, am i happy that after two years of hearing that climate change is bunk that he had a conversation with a leading advocate of clean energy and taking care of climate change? you know, i absolutely think the proof is in the pudding and what we're seeing in the pudding is terrible. >> charlie, just to add on to

that, we each have four children. you cannot blow the climate change issue for the next four years and have the same future. the fact that he met with al gore is fine but the question is who does he appoint and does he roll back that stuff? there are certain things right now that if we get wrong as a country, climate, rebuilding the economic infrastructure for the middle and working class who as my brother said correctly have felt left out and third, investing in kids anged education, we are going to punish this country and pus -- put us in a very bad position. it is our job to speak out. we're sitding in a building with mike bloomberg, a business leader, an extraordinary climate advocate along with my brother. to me, donald trump needs to listen to the business community about climate because they understand the economics of it and the future of the country's leadership on it. it's a very big issue right now. >> we were at this dinner last

night. we just issued a business, a group called risky business, issued a report answering the question, can wea ford to move to clean snerg we issued a port two years ago showing how incredibly expensive it will be to deal with climate. and we studied four different ways to move to clean energy between now and 2050 and in every case what we see is better employment, lower costs for american consumers and greater growth. so the whole idea that we can't afford to do it is completely false. the fact is we have the ability right now with existing technology to reduce our greenhouse gas emissions by 80%. all we have to do is decide to do it and invest in -- charlie: i just returned fro -- from rome. i had a chance to meet the pope

and a lot of what the pope is talking about is the connection between climate and poverty in terms of the encyclical he wrote. >> yes. what the pope says and what we deeply believe is that we have a responsibility to hand on a planet to take care of the planet that god gave us and to take care of each other, including the most vulnerable citizens. and what he, what the pope says which is absolutely true is if we don't deal with this issue we will do neither of those things. what we're saying is those are absolutely responsibilities for our generation and we can do it and be richer for doing it. we can put more people to work at higher wages. charlie: how would you character rirse the resistance? is it simply hanging on the basis of whether crime -- climate change is produced by the actions of men and women? or is it something else?

what's the reason for -- >> oh, i think at this point -- charlie: people who are so resistant. >> i think at this point it's not the american people. the american people, including most republicans know the truth, which is that it's caused by people and that it's a threat to the united states of america and safety and prosperity and everything else. but the fact of the matter is we have a system that is rigged where we're making decisions based on special corporate interests who make a ton of money the way things are and absolutely don't want us to move to a clean energy economy and they are calling the tune. charlie: what would be the primary thing, your legislative goal if you had some influence with the congress? would it be a tax on car gon -- carbon? >> i think the very broad-basedsumption from people on both sides of the aisle who are open-minded is you put some form of carbon pricing out there and you use government

money in the research side of clean energy. that basically government investment in research has pushed incredible changes including the internet, which really was founded at the department of defense, but you can go back to world war ii and see all the things that have come out of government research. >> i just -- charlie: i just saw a story today that i think google has said that its data centers, in some year coming up -- >> next year! charlie: 2017. next year. they will be totally fueled by alternative sources, sun and wind. is that right? did i get that right? >> it is. the business in the united states of america, with the exception of fossil fuel businesses and a few utilities, have moved on. they're in favor of clean energy, are pushing clean energy, they know that's the future. when is the last time that the united states policy was to go back to a tech analogy that --

technology that was, you know, dominant in the 1950's? how could that possibly be a growth strategy for the united states? that just seems laughable. charlie: just one more question on that. do you think that what happened in paris is vulnerable to, that this administration will refuse to accept that understanding? >> i don't know what they'll do but i know this. more countries agreed to that paris climate accord than have agreed to anything in the history of the world. so if the united states wants to be the leader of the world, which we have been for 100 years, i would not walk away from every other country and tell them you're on your own, we only think about ourselves, because they will look for leadership. they are looking for leadership and it will be china, maybe germany, but we'll be saying to the rest of much the world, we're just gork for ourselves now and that is a tragic mistake. charlie: you were going to say? >> i'm impressed with my

younger brother leer i think he's pretty brother here. i think he's pretty smart. but when you look at the business side of it, the misunderstandings in the way this election was carried out, the hole focus on coal miners. how many are there in the united states? 55,000? >> 60,000. >> there are 400,000 clean energy jobs in cleafl -- california alone. so the idea that we were running an election around antiquated technologists and structures -- by the way that esn't mean we don't care about the coal miners and so on did you but it's a smart business strategy. i'm glad my brther articulates it pretty well. i am, i'm proud of him. seriously, charlie! >> if you were at aur -- our dinner table you would never

get a word in edgewise! charlie: i can tell! you need me to ask the questions. >> certainly our parents were in there talking and our older brother too! >> where we are in california we had some big victories in 2016. i thought my brother might mention that. it's really investing in birth to 5. every child in america, no matter their socioeconomic background or status or what color they are needs good health, nutrition and early childhood education birth to 5. this is a no-brainer. ost industrialized industries, even many nonindustrialized countries provide it. we do not. so with all the political rhetoric about rolling back the a.c.a. and obama care, what is going to happen to kids? the losers always when you cut important government programs are children. they're always the biggest

losers because they're the poorest americans. i think you have to look at early childhood, quality stuff like e steyer kids had, we gave our children. and then really investing in the education system. we argue -- we didn't do this when we were sharing a bedroom but we argue about what is more important, climate or kids? and education. those are the two issues we spend or lives working on and both are incredibly important but you cannot have a prosperous america any time in the longer term if we do not invest in early childhood, health care, education for kids and then final limb the work force economy that middle and lower econoamericans deserve because kids lose had their parents are really poor and the other stark fact we haven't mentioned is the growing inequality in this country and the fact that kids are the poorest americans. close to one out of four

americans in this country still lives below the official poverty line and many below the extreme poverty line, which is $12,000 a year for a family of four. so these are just fro -- no-brainers and we hope a trump administration will do that with you also state-based we're working in cleafl to do that. >> traditionally the united states of america has been an optimistic society where we have a vision of how we're going to have a just and growing society for everybody. somehow if you look at 2016, at that presidential ray, 82% of americans said i'm dispirited by this. i did not hear that. and what i'm saying here and what jim is talking about and i'm talking about and what people back home in california believe is that is not off the table. that's what we're for. for a just society where it's growing and people are saying it's going to be better and

that's absolutely within our roach -- reach. so to take that off the table and assumele no, we're going to go backwards, it's a zero sum game with people pipted against each other, i don't believe that for a single second. the sfact america has the ability to grorks for people's incomes to grow and for people to do a lot better.

>> welcome to the best of berg markets middle east. i'm tracy. the major headlines from the middle east driving headlines this week, turkey changed the d.p., and culates g. it shows its economy expanding faster than india's, despite terror attacks in major urban areas and more. price waterhouse coopers