tv With All Due Respect Bloomberg January 16, 2017 9:00pm-10:01pm EST
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♪ >> welcome to our special coverage of donald trump's inauguration. i am here with the dancing man, john. donald trump will be sworn in on friday. we are using the next few days to take a deep dive into policy, into what a trump presidency around themerica and globe. a reminder of some of the things the president-elect has been americanlans for the economy. >> we are going to undertake one of the great tax reforms and simplifications in american history. this includes lowering the tax rate on business from 35% all the way down to 15%.
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and massive tax cuts, by the way, for middle-class workers. massive. the biggest. the biggest thing some -- since reagan. we go from the highest tax nation in the world to one of the lowest, not the lowest yet but don't get greedy. one of the lowest. on regulations, which is perhaps even more important, because our companies are dying and being strangled or regulation, we are going to eliminate all wasteful job-killing regulations. on energy, we will cancel the job killing restrictions on the production of american energy, and that means lower energy prices for farmers, households, and small businesses. my administration will follow two simple rules. by american and higher american
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-- buy american and hire american. from now, it will be america first. we will crack down foreign trade abuses that undermine your ability and your companies' ability to compete. those days are over. our country has lost one third of its manufacturing jobs since nafta. we have lost 70,000 factories since china opened and joined the world trade organization. factories, we have lost. can you believe it? it is hard to believe. i thought it was a typo. it is the greatest jobs theft in the history of the world, but we are going to get them back. the nation of china is responsible for almost half of america's trade deficit. .hina is not a market economy
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they get a lot of help. and that is why we designate them as being a nonmarket economy. a big thing. to have -- they haven't played by the rules and they know it is time that they are going to start. they are going to start. they've got to. we are in this thing together. we have to play by the rules, folks. mark: lots of talk on the big issue, the economy. we begin with tax reform, one of the major shakeups trump is expected to tackle. the next president says he will lower the corporate tax rate to 15%. he pledged to consolidate the nation's current seven tax brackets down to three, and repeal the death tax and rewrite the tax code to allow for and elderlychild care services. congressional democrats are calling this plan a boon for the rich that betrays trump's
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campaign process to help working americans. he nominated steven mnuchin for trade secretary -- treasury secretary, which may make him a central figure in a clash on capitol hill. tax reform.over when it comes to trump's tax plan, is a good policy, as he is proposing it, and is it good politics? john: it is nice to be back with you. happy new year. since we were last year, you and your beloved karen had a child. congratulations. we are going up in the tax code. virtuallycomplished nothing other than drinking a metric ton of tequila. you did better in our time away. this wouldn't just be a reader is to be ocean of the tax plan -- a redistribution of the tax form,if enacted in this
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it will be redistributionist. we know there is broad support for corporate tax reform, trump islong the lines pursuing. there will be a big fight over what is clearly going to be a big boon to upper income individuals, at a time when there has been massive income inequality. donald trump, a large part of his appeal was not just to rich people. he appealed to working-class americans who are, if democrats message this properly, can make this seem for an administration, we haven't gotten this yet, but raising the minimum wage, it will be a fight that might not be good policy or good politics on those grounds. mark: a push for tax reform teases out every big question we have about how this will go. does he want democrat votes are not? paul ryan's plan, the house plan, is more to the right than trump's plan. if trump was going to do what
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obama did, he would move in that direction and get the democratic votes. i can see a plan in my mind, , where athe trump plan lot of democrats will like the corporate reform and the repatriation. move the burden more to the wealthy, less on the middle class. i could see democrats on the merits, voting for that. it is good politics if trump can find a way to make this plan get bipartisan support. is it good policy? only if it leads to lowering the and creatingterm jobs in the short-term. will this plan create jobs? supply-siders will say yes. it depends on what trump does. john: also, move incomes forward, wage stagnation, not just income inequality but wage stagnation is a huge problem, one of the things that fueled trump's rise. there is no way this tax plan will help the deficit. economic growth,
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but i think there is a trickle-down magic. my point is, i think you are right. bid thats an opening is more to the center than ryan's plan, and he is willing to move more to the center, there is a note -- there is a way they could get democratic votes, which would be the same as being good for working americans. mark: tax reform happens less than once in a generation. wait for the special interest to come out. a titanic battle that will define his presidency. john: if it looks like it is just for the rich, it will never be good politics for trump. now, trade. this topic, they'll be the very trade.f trade, foreign the next president regularly cites the u.s. manufacturing trade deficit of $800 billion. that number represents how much the nation spends on imports compared to how much we learn
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from exporting goods made at home. it does not include the nation's trade surplus when it comes to service industries. trump says he and his team will close the trade gap by renegotiating the north american free trade agreement, nafta, and withdrawing from the tpp. he has threatened a 35% border tax on u.s. companies that move jobs out of this country. to donald it comes trump's positions on trade, same question, good policy or politics? this is probably one of the signature things of trump's campaign and one of the places where he is most out of step with republicans. believed china and other countries overseas are killing us. for his base and a larger group, it is good politics. it will only be it good policy if he is not protectionist. everybody who is serious about economics understands that. he will have easy wins on that,
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he will go to countries and say, we will redo trade. i will give you something on the side, do this for me. i think he will change the way these deals work. in the end, i don't think there will be trade wars. i don't think there will be super high tariffs. he will use the threat to extract rings from other people because in the end, paul ryan will not preside over protectionist deals. specials, we do these we get to two of the challenges. one of the questions, how much are these things opening bids? tactical versus -- mark: opening bids. john: the other thing is, seeing the things as isolationist, my point about this is the question of how many fights is trump going to pick with republicans? few republicans in the house or senate are in favor of these kinds of measures. with a vote for them? -- when they vote for them?
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truthfully, there are more democrats in favor of this kind of trade policy in principle. what does that add up to? the short-term come i don't think he needs to pick fights on this. he gets some individual one offs of things he can point to and say, i am tough on trade. he doesn't need to succeed in repealing current deals. john: it only works to the point where, if he slaps a 35% tariff on somebody, he's going to be on trouble -- in trouble. mark: trump has promised to roll back regulations on the environment, wall street financials, and he named carl icahn as an advisor on regulatory reform. we will talk about dodd-frank, and fossil fuels. when it comes to trump's approach to regulation, good policy, good politics? john: it depends. this is one of those things
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widespread deregulation, radical deregulation, which is when a large number of people trump appointed are in favor of, people who want to dismantle federal agencies like the epa and the labor department, those things are not big popular things. there is a widespread perception that obama has overregulated the economy. if by deregulating it a smart way, you unleash growth, it will be popular. the country is in favor of safety regulations and keeping our rivers and streams safe. there are people who trump has appointed who would like to kill all those regulations. the question is, what does the regulation at up to? mark: in the short-term, it is good politics. business owners think they are overregulated. it will be in the implementation whether it is good policy. there is no doubt, part of why the markets reacted promise --
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promisingly is that there will regulation. it has to be done positively. as you said, if you deregulate somebody and some kid dies from playing with a toy -- john: not just political disasters, human disasters. mark: in the short-term, it is one of the best things he's got from a political point of view to talk about. john: next, we take a look at the fight over america's entitlement programs. we will be right back. ♪
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united states entitlement programs, the big ones. if nothing changes, the federal social security trust fund is expected to be depleted by 2034, and medicare part a will be unable to cover obligations by trumpfour years after leaves office if he wins a second term. of republicans don't find a way to make up for the extra revenue after repealing obama care, paul ofn supported an overhaul medicare, which is expected to be part of the agenda. donald trump said he would protect social security benefits and medicare and preserve medicaid by giving states block grant funding. we haven't heard much on these topics since election day, so mark, how do you see this issue of entitlement reform playing out under the new trump administration? mark: donald is not the first politician who said this.
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obviously, the lack of specificity, the conflict between his stated goals, there is no way to bridge the gap whatsoever. i think republicans will not take this on. don't your paul ryan talking about the deficit. the can will be kicked down the road in part because it would be political suicide and they have other fish to fry, but also they believe what i believe, the way you reduce the deficit is economic growth. you can't cut your way out of the deficit. you have to grow your way out of it. that is what bill clinton did. i think they are betting on growth. john: donald trump does not care about deficit reduction. donald trump is not a conservative in that sense. no place is it clearer, donald trump's roots as a democrat, he doesn't want to change popular programs because they are popular and he doesn't really care. one of, there is so much uncertainty, the one thing i
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would bet every dollar i have currently will have in the future and had in the past, is that the government will be bigger on the day trump leaves office, whether that is four or eight years from now. the government will be bigger, the debt will be bigger. short-term, that is true. up next, plans to help one voting block. rust belt manufacturing revival efforts, right after this. ♪
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part to blue-collar voters in the rust belt who suffered decades of manufacturing declines. tohas repeated his promises reopen factories and renegotiate trade deals to prevent jobs from heading overseas. here to talk about his approach are two reporters who have written extensively, labor aporter josh and pollock, theul. what is the state of economy, particularly as it relates to manufacturing, that obama is handing off to donald trump? asked the manufacturing sector in the united states is in decline. it has been for a couple decades. it is really in the climb now, , automation.ly it is not because of the free drain -- the free trade deals with mexico. it is because technology is
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taking over, and that is going to accelerate and move into white-collar jobs. mark: let me ask you one that, why is that hurting america? why isn't automation in other countries having the same impact? why isn't it across the board? it reduces jobs. if people aren't working, they are not buying things. if they aren't buying things, there isn't a demand that results in other employers adding to their workforces. we have slower growth. when you lose jobs in the manufacturing sector and those people don't get new jobs, you have to figure up what to do with them. that is what the debate is about, what trump is doing is saying, it is because of the bad trade deals, because some buddies are moving jobs overseas and i'm going to put the stop to that. mark: josh, focus on the positive. what is barack obama handing off to donald trump in manufacturing and jobs that he can build on where there is some sense of
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either progress, or foundation? josh: obama and company will point out that under their watch, we have had the longest stretch of continual month over month job growth in a long time. of course, that is compared to losing a lot of jobs before that. they will point to changes in the benefits and compensation changesple get, despite that have been made at the federal and state level. that doesn't mitigate that much, the fact that there has not been a great deal of wage growth in the past several years, were in the past few decades, compared to overall growth of the economy. john: josh, let me ask you, you cover labor and i am curious, how the notion of a corporate ceo taking over the labor department, a department that is supposed to be representative of that iss workers,
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usually where you put a liberal. we now have a corporate ceo, mr. puzder. what does that mean for the future of the labor department and the debates in washington? josh: one of the things i haven't seen commented on, you have elaine chao, the labor secretary under george w. bush, who was seen as the greatest antagonist in that administration of unions, and organized labor has largely given her a pass in her designation by donald trump as transportation secretary. transportation is not as central a concern, but also, it shows the desperate situation that unions see themselves in. when you thought angst couldn't get worse, they could. there is broad resistance to ander symbolically substantively. in public life, outside of running his company, what he has been doing his writing off beds and going on tv -- writing tv, treatinging on
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the mcdonald's company as the joint employer of franchise workers, or expanding eligibility for overtime. as a threat and a political opportunity, in that having a ceo who makes a time of money and his workers don't -- a ton of money in his workers don't, would be in charge of enforcing laws on wage theft, is an opportunity to make the case that trump was never a blue-collar guy, never a populist, and actually, is on the other side. john: one of the big stories of been donaldon has trump on twitter and elsewhere, doing something we have perceived before, which is singling out american companies, mainly many factoring sector companies, offering them inducements, engaging in the kind of industrial policy report -- republicans generally think
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of as abhorrent. what does the manufacturing sector think? he may exercise a bully pulpit in the weight -- in the way republicans generally have not. paula: for the most part, companies are caving to him. you can see why. he is threatening to impose tryffs on any product you to bring back into the united states, and a president's power to do that is huge. they know they will lose on that fight. they don't want to get on the wrong side of the new president, so they are doing the public relations campaigns that are really, just as bad as donald trump's public relations campaigns, going tit for tat on pr. perry allows trump to announce a deal well -- where they are not going to move jobs to mexico, but they are moving many more jobs to mexico just as they are not spending a certain number of
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number sending a certain of jobs there from one factory. it is a head fake. he is doing the same thing with ford. ford answers in much the same way, they say they will no longer build a new plant in mexico, but they still make a lot of cars and get a lot of parts from mexico. the reason is that it is more profitable. a lot of what goes into a car is parts that cross the border many times. donald trump is not going to stop this. this has been going on for many decades. he needs to focus on, what can he do for workers who are left behind? there are so many things he could do that would really help them, that go beyond this kind of public shaming of manufacturers. either by, legislation or executive action, what are the things unions believe they will fight with trump on regulatory workplace changes? josh: one of the greatest things
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trump could do to wound unions is, if he appoints a conservative supreme court justice, that person likely would be the fifth vote to end the reprieve that unions got ther scalia died on specific issue of whether public-sector employees can be required to pay union fees. it would be a massive loss for organized labor, about half of whose members are in the public sector now, if the decision comes down. thank you and paula, both. up next, countdown to obamacare repeal. ♪
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the slowest rate in 50 years. and i have said, and i mean it, if anyone can put together a plan that is demonstrably better than the improvements we have made to the health care system, that covers as many people at less cost, i will publicly support it. that was president barack obama defending his signature health care law during his farewell address in chicago, repealing obamacare has been at the top of republicans' 2017 to do list. joining us now to talk about the affordable care act are billy and read. billy, the terrain has shifted dramatically on the to happenat is going to the affordable care act. explain what is going on on capitol hill, and what is happening in broad strokes. >> house republicans will take a
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budget bill and write what is ,alled reconciliation language that will delve into obamacare, and making changes there. that process allow them to avoid a democratic filibuster, but the issue is, what will they write and how else will they change it , and what mechanisms will they use? even republicans on the hill are skeptical and doubtful that there is a plan. there are six obamacare replacement plans, but how they dovetail and whether they will work, nobody knows. john: why have the politics of this shifted so quickly from everybody assuming we would have and replaced down the line, to suddenly, we have to and replacepeal it it simultaneously? that is new and dramatic, a big shift. idea what isno
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going to happen. that would create a lot of chaos. i think that, along with president-elect donald trump saying, i want this repealed and replaced, essentially simultaneously, and i want it done quickly, the realization that as democrats say, republicans or the dog that caught the bus. whatever happens, it is on them. they have the white house and congress. mark: one of the big questions on health care is, how much synchronicity is there between the trump white house and paul ryan and mitch mcconnell? there has been some back and forth in general. they seem in sync on tactics and strategy and goals for how to get, how to repeal and replace? billy: even on the terminology, they claim to be in sync. speaker ryan says, we are in think. he is meeting with reince priebus and other transition
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team members. even on definitions of words like "simultaneous," you get a clinton--esque definition from ryan. the president-elect says, within two weeks. they are wrestling with what terminology to use and what it means, and that is a camel's nose in the tent that there are broader problems over there, with dovetailing and what they are doing. mark: another big questionable, republicanss by the , are they interested in getting democratic votes for what they do, or do they say, this is going to be a republican only process? as far as repealing goes, they don't need a democratic vote. by doing at the reconciliation, they have announced votes to get a repealed. the question is, if they go through a repeal and replace and they need to get democrats onboard, they say, we would like to talk about it, but democrats
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are saying, we need to see what you have. we will not help you if you blow up the health-care law and come to us for help. it is a question of, what are republicans going to do? when are they going to replace it, and if that will determine whether democrats are willing to get on board. , there is ar false piece of analysis that basically says, if repeal and replace has to happen roughly at the same time, the only thing there can be is something that is basically a rebranded version of obamacare. it is true or false? billy: absolutely true. maybel be several tweaks, a name change, but the substance of a massive health care law cannot be done overnight. numbers are realizing that. there are problems with the trump language, that he wants it done simultaneously. that is why speaker ryan is trying to redefine the word
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complex law known as dodd-frank. dodd frank wall street reform, a consumer protection act, the sweeping financial industry reform that president obama signed in the wake of the 2008 crisis. dexheimerlizabeth about what it would take to repeal dodd-frank on capitol hill this year. elizabeth: for wall street and financial regulation, donald trump continues to be the ultimate wild card. donald trump has called for cutting regulations across the board. his includes dodd-frank. broadly, that is something the industry would like to see. on the campaign trail, as part of the populist message, he called for reinstating the glass-steagall act, which would essentially force the biggest banks to break up. that is something that is not consistent with what republicans in congress would like to see, and what the biggest banks and
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wall street would like to see. in the house, on the financial services committee, the chairman is a key player and has proposed legislation that would overhaul dodd-frank. that is seen as a blueprint for what the house will propose, and the big wildcard is getting support from democrats in the senate. to avoid filibuster rules, they will need at least eight democratic senators to agree to pass legislation, unless republicans decide to take a more aggressive stand and do it through a budget bill or a spending-- a mandatory bill. we will likely see a bill introduced in the house. we are waiting to see what republicans in the senate craft. this is something that will play out over months. elizabeth joins us to talk about dodd-frank. also with us is rob tricchinelli . rob, are there divisions within the republican party on capitol hill about what should be done with dodd-frank? rob: there aren't that many
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divisions. the key thing to watch in the coming months is what the senate does. we alluded to that in the clip just now, elizabeth did, but a republican, a previous republican rep -- legislative effort has not gone as far on dodd-frank as the jeb hensarling approach, now you have a new toking chairman and he likes do things in a bipartisan way whenever possible. there may be tension there, but the senate is pretty much a wildcard on what republicans want to do with dodd-frank. mark: elizabeth, there is a lot ofcontradicting -- a lot contradiction in what donald trump talks about. you would think that allowing wall street to have more power would be against a populist image. do members of congress, republicans in congress, fear the backlash in repealing or fundamentally scaling back
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dodd-frank? elizabeth: it is definitely a long-term political risk. as you said, trump ran on a populist economic message that included bashing big banks and criticizing hillary clinton's ties to goldman sachs. this is something that, the optics of this debate, and whether or not republicans are being seen as helping and giving a hand to wall street, is something that in the long term, could backfire. who is going to be the voice for this argument? it is a tricky argument. trump wants to deregulate businesses. people don't like red tape. wall street is, as you just said, not popular. who in the administration, is it steven mnuchin or gary cohn? who is the public voice or this is the argument unfolds on the trump side? elizabeth: it's a great question. you mentioned gary cohn and steve minogue can -- steven
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mnuchin, trump is still filling positions here he is looking at the fed will help dictate who is taking the lead on this. most likely, the administration is going to look for -- look to congress for an example on how to move forward. right now, jeff can sterling in close to mike pence, and was an early supporter of trump. he has the legislation already ready to go, it passed in the previous congress and he is expected to roll out a new version of that in the coming weeks. remains to be it seen. those are a lot of questions. hard bill tos a get past. it was complicated even in the context of the financial crisis, at a time when wall street was at its least popular back in 2009. what are the things that could cause this to come undone, the biggest hurdles that donald trump and administration
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republicans will have to overcome in order to enact a fundamental unwinding of dodd-frank? that comes to one mind is threshold in the senate. under the ordinary legislative process, you would need 60 votes to overcome the filibuster. while there is a positive -- a possibility that dodd-frank could get undone through this reconciliation process, that only works with things that affect spending, and dodd-frank is huge. different so many areas of financial legislation that only some of it can be done with the 51 majority that reconciliation needs. you will need 60 votes in the senate unless there is a huge change and the majority runs things -- in how the majority runs things over there. look for red state democrats up for reelection in 2018 and the senate, maybe they will go along with some of the dodd-frank changes. you have heard chuck schumer, the incoming leader of senate democrats, say that able fight
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tooth and nail to stop dodd-frank changes and he had the votes to stop it. mark: big, complicated, sprawling. let's say im a consumer. what are some of the things that changing could affect consumers directly? elizabeth: the first question is the financial protection bureau. the leadership and structure and really, it's future. it is a complicated debate, but that could certainly have implications for rules that the bureau is currently considering, such as those around a payday lender -- around payday lenders and mortgage rules, for example. those remain in limbo. also, the enforcement actions the bureau could take. i would really say, the actions of leadership around the sea at pb -- the cf pb is foremost.
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this is a multi-month debate. nothing will change overnight. mark: this is a tough thing, but ab, if this is done, is this 2017 signed into law proposition or it -- or a 2018 proposition? rob: the big indicator is, just this week, jeff henschel and said the changes will get done this year. that is his prediction. he has gone out there, the most out of anybody that put a timeline on it. mark: is it doable in this calendar year, elizabeth? elizabeth: i think there are ambitious republicans, but i would say this stretches out for quite a long time. they will be competing, anyone who is advocating changes will be competing with an aggressive legislative agenda. there i a lot of other items that congress will have to tackle first. including tax reform.
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♪ >> what is your view about the trump administration as they come in and formulate trade policy? x i have a good relationship with them. i talked to them from time to time, i talked to them last week when we announced our plan and michigan -- in michigan and he is interested in what we are interested in. taxes, trade, currency manipulation, all the things
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that affect corporations. i am encouraged by what i have seen in terms of his potential. john: that was the chairman of atd speaking to bloomberg the detroit auto show this month, expressing economic optimism about donald trump's presidency. the u.s. stock market responded warmly to the notion of a trump presidency. here to tell us why, and what it means, is brainiac and cohost of joe. ifd you miss?" trump gets elected, the market is going to take. it didn't. joe: everybody was completely wrong about that. it shows that market people know as little as everybody else does. the story that is told, to explain this rally, is that people are excited that unified republican government, that means they will forget about the
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deficit and debt because that is what happens when parties are unified, so they will spend like crazy, lost of -- lots of fiscal stimulus. we will get an infrastructure boom, everybody loves tax cuts, and a regulatory rollback. people are putting together this imaginary, conservative policy, none of which has been articulated yet, expecting that that is going to happen. the problem is, as i see it, and sincet make forecasts but the election, what has trump talked about? hammering companies that don't manufacturing in the u.s., talking about trade, talking about the wall, things that typically, investors don't get excited about. it seems that that is where his head is at. investors' heads are somewhere else. i have to imagine that at some point in 2017, there will be tension between those two visions. , for overall numbers
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instance last week, trump talked about drug prices. are there sectors that are doing better during this timeframe that offer more textured clues about why the reaction has been upward? the clearest example of a sector doing well specifically because of trump are the financial stocks. there are two fold reasons for that. one is, expectations of higher growth and interest rate under this big spending plan. banks do better when interest rates are higher. that is one reason why the banks rallied. also, d regulatory rollback. that is one of the industries that has been most targeted by the new slew of regulations, and they have, trump has the zeal to cut them back, and they would presumably benefit. plus, you have the added surprise that a lot of people point,ently, or at some who were associated with goldman -- goldman sachs, they -- mark: what they call the white
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house, people who eat in the white house? the goldman sachs cafeteria? john: that was a halfhearted laugh. not a great joke. mark: it is not supposed to be funny, it is supposed to be snotty. john: i haven't heard that one before. you have all this stuff, and a lot of reasons people don't like banks. john: regulatory reform is something, if you want to put points on the board, trump can do a lot of that on his own in a unilateral way. legislation is harder, especially big wings like immigration and tax reform. as the market going to be ok if, in the worst-case scenario, trump runs up a bunch of regulatory reform or rollbacks, but hasn't put legislative points on the board? is that ok with the markets, or
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do the markets need to see built -- big bills pass? if there is nothing done on taxes are infrastructure or something around the fiscal picture, eventually they'll be a disappointment. it is so clear that the market fiscalcting expansionary policy. tax cuts are why everybody who is bullish on the markets, they all site that. if that can't get done and there is no agreement, if democrats are able to block it, i think that will inevitably, you can't go too long without progress on that. john: everybody is focused on trump because the reaction was timed to his election. our other things going on that people are bullish on that my because in the rise? -- that may be causing the rise? focus on the market reaction, but a lot of the trends we are seeing started earlier this summer. talking about the interest rate rise that has helped the banks, interest rates bottomed out july 8 than they have been rising
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since then. if you look at the global economic picture, we are in a very rare timeframe over the past few years where every region is doing well. europe is doing well. chinese data has been coming in better than expected. the u.k. data, which everybody thought was going to fall apart due to the brexit vote, is doing well. in addition to the optimistic story that people are telling about trump, it is nice for markets that right now, there are no obvious weak spots in the global economy. john: your life is calling. much.hanks so check out his show at 3:30 every day. we will be right back. ♪
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♪ >> we are in the middle of the asian trading day. welcome to bloomberg markets: asia. global uncertainty ways on asian longests shanghai's losing streak in three years. no half measures. the pound freezes near 32-year lows with theresa may sets to advocate for a hard brexit. samsung succession plans in disarray after police look at
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leader.g the notets across asia, we are getting direction from the u.s.. they are closed on the holiday. everybody is looking ahead at theresa may's speech later this evening. people say we are probably going to get more confirmation of a hard brexit. that, thisf continues to be the case in asia, seeing the dollar rallying again. the japanese yen crowded, and on the back of that, emerging-market currencies losing ground. 0.1%,ilippine peso down gaining ground .1% at the moment . the south korean kospi rallied a percent after samsung, the heaviest weighted stock, gains 2% despite
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