♪ announcer: from our studios in new york city, this is "charlie rose". charlie: hugh hewitt is here. president donald trump 13 times during the 2016 campaign and participated as a panelist in four primary debates. book outlines how this president and a unified gop could work together to transform the country. , thells it the fourth way conservative playbook for a lasting gop majority. i am pleased to have you at the table.

welcome. let me trace the evolution of huge hewitt. where are you politically a center-right paul ryan conservative, and what has been your evolution in the 2016 campaign. hugh: during the debates because i had signed on for the four did 170occurred, i interviews with republican candidates, including about a dozen before donald trump. after he was nominated, i supported him. withthe incident happened the judge, i announced he was flying the party into the mountain. he stopped, so i got back on the trump train, campaign for him throughout the summer, barnstormed with mike gallagher and some folks from salem, sheriff david clarke, and after

access hollywood tweeted, i wish you would get out of the race and i thought moore was coming. he did not get out of the race. he can transform with paul ryan, mitch mcconnell, and mike pence and create a semi-lasting republican majority. charlie: what are the necessary essential ingredients of that and what could prevent it from happening? hugh: scandal could prevent it from happening. a reality with this president, the possibility of impeachment. a year,ooks said within but i don't believe that. if the republicans lose the house in 2018, they would immediately bring impeachment proceedings. but, on the other hand, he had a good start.

i like the pipeline executive orders. if he nominates anyone of his 21 judges to be the supreme court justice, i will be very happy. three months ago, i thought original is him was dead. -- originalism was dead. the chief justice was an originalist and an old friend. he does stick with the rule. read that citizens united concurs often. by the way, he is vindicated by his decision. i make that argument, that had he overturned obamacare, we would not be looking at a unified gop. charlie: weight. because he made that decision -- hugh: i read it and was persuaded.

if you come up hold a federal statute, you ought to uphold a federal statute. he did find a way. somewhat tortured, but nevertheless away. it turned out to be a brilliant decision. 12 senatere down sheets, 14 governorships, 54 seats in the house of representatives. charlie: why is that? hugh: obamacare. i don't believe it is racism , and i the president fought his policy, but by and toll on thecare's average american has been horrific. deductibles and a premium that in phoenix for example went up 117%. it just wiped out kitchen table conversation. he won that's why

pennsylvania, michigan, and wisconsin, the combination of industrialization and touching that cord. steelworkers, car building, blue collar counties went for trump, so he touched something and made it a revolution. he can continue that. this book is about republicans, give him what he campaign for, a fence, infrastructure spending. charlie: i read today that infrastructure spending is being recommended by some to reach out to another constituency. hugh: it is, the inner cities, latinos, african-americans, and white communities that have been de-industrialized. needs to happen in the right places, targeted industrial policy.

paul ryan does not believe in this. kevin brady, kevin mccarthy, mitch mcconnell don't believe in this, but he won the presidency and they ought to give it to him. they have to give him the fence, nixon-to-china moment is when donald trump transforms immigration policy. charlie: to transform immigration policy? who: to allow the people are here without legal permission to stay, not legal citizens, but no one could criticize him as soft on immigration, just like nixon is the only one who can go sit with mao. he is in vulnerable. charlie: do you think he is considering it? hugh: i do. i think sean spicer telegraphed that when he said our priorities are not to go after the daca kids. our party is to go after people who have broken the law. that is channeling the blueprint

for reform by reince , it is exactly what the republicans called for, and i believe donald trump will in brace that because it makes sense and he knows that people who work in the trades. latino inargely places like california. so he understands getting reelected and understands building. i am an optimist on that. charlie: with respect to trade, you are at one with him? hugh: no, this is where we separate. i don't even understand the border adjusted tax. paul ryan wants to do a border adjusted thing. richard nixon's definition of real progress, the ongoing incremental expansion in or allied to the west. that is based on free trade, shipping -- charlie: democratic regimes are

stable regimes. hugh: egypt under mubarak was stable -- charlie: there are some threats to that. i talked to a lot of egyptians. there are some real challenges. hugh: the interesting thing will be is that there is a suggestion that president trump will sign an order adding the muslim brotherhood to the list of terrorist organizations. if he does, it will be quite controversial. gives mewright argues, the reason why i think it would be justified, but i don't expect a democracy in the middle east to come out of egypt, but i think they will get along and we will be better off in four years than we were under president obama. charlie: as a friend of israel, do you worry about all the settlements and the fact it

makes a two state solution seem further and further away? hugh: i do. a very smart his touring represents the center right in israel, which would be the center left in america, and benjamin netanyahu is political and does not want to do away with the two state solution either. charlie: he said he is that core netanyahu, not willing to take a risk for peace. hugh: i don't blame anyone in israel for any of this. i think hamas was the problem. i think secretary kerry's speech was ill advised and the united nations move was wrong. have tried a few times, invited the president to come -- both of them have tried, and israel is not the problem. time,e: but at the same

john kerry, who tried desperately to bring them together -- hugh: i despair of that changing much in the next 20 years. what i would like to see is isis eradicated. that is the single line that will and do her. radical islamate in terror from the face of the earth. that is impossible to achieve in four years. , he sangit's not isil radical islamic terror. hugh: he went much further and farther. charlie: do you think that is michael flynn's influence? hugh: it is very much general flynn. charlie: are you at one with michael flynn in terms of how he sees islam? separation for radical islamic fundamentalism? hugh: i reread field the fight to bring weeks ago before this. he is very nuanced on it.

general mcchrystal is high on him. charlie: he is very high on him as an intelligence officer. he was his right-hand man. hugh: right. for have a lot of hope general flynn, and the cartoon image is what attaches to most warriors when they tried to become politicians. they are not very good at it. charlie: i would like to have him here at the table. general mcchrystal knew he was admired for his work in he ranstan, and then into trouble within the pentagon. the cia is way to politicize, as you know. went overael pompeo there with the express mission to act as a military officer, not a congressman, and bring order out of chaos. i think the agency was demoralized. charlie: demoralized by?

hugh: the refusal to deal with facts on the ground, the use of centcom intelligence that was perverted, the refusal to call isis the threat it is and called them the jvs. they are brave men and women and clear eyed, and i would prefer back to the book, they were not listened to. they have never been listened to about how to combat the rapid spread. charlie: as you know, there has always been division within the cia. you would expect it to be. they do not come to analysis all seeing the same facts, some cds, some see these, not choosing the fax you want. cia.is the nature of the it is to look at a lot of evidence and saying to the president this is what we found and then recommend a course of action.

you, i put this to charlie, because i think the crisis of credibility in the intelligence community is larger than it has been in a while. i don't believe they were willing to push the president to reality on the jvs, and the president has tried to distance himself from that, but how wrong could we have been in that decision to withdraw from iraq and the consequences of it. how wrong could we have been? factie: you believe, if in there had been an agreement, the government was not anxious to make an agreement, but you believe the united states if it had insisted on an agreement and stay there, issa would never have grown? hugh: i do. we have as many as 10,000 special forces on the ground now without an agreement. that's the number the generals asked for in 2007.

obama wanted out. he made a promise and fulfilled it and is willing to live with the consequences of it. at length and in detail. i just think he was wrong. the consequence of that is that i don't have a lot of faith in the old guard at the cia, and i am glad mr. brennan is retired, and i have huge faith in mr. pompeo. i am very high on general mattis, who i have only met once in a close session at hoover. i knew his former chief of staff general mcchrystal. i am very sorry he is not in the administration. if there is one guy i would recruit, it is stamina mcchrystal. charlie: how about david the trays? hugh: the one thing, two threats, the people's republic of china and their surgeon to

the south china sea with artificial islands, huge problem, then this bread of radical islamic terrorism. putin does not scare me. he doesn't worry me the way those two threats worry me, and they weren't much discussed. charlie: economically and otherwise. hugh: dr. kissinger, the last chapter is so chilling, there are to bring parties, the tigers and the capitalists, and if the tigers get in control, we are in a rocky 4-8 years. charlie: they seem to argue primarily it is the military. hugh: yes, that is what dr. kissinger argued. at the same time, xi jinping has amassed a huge amount of power. hugh: he is little exposed to meet in the way previous leaders were not. do you think he is a man of growth and peace? charlie: i think china looks at

the world with a growing sense that they have to play an important part. you have to be a stakeholder, and now the military -- hugh: and the islands and the nuclear class submarines -- that is the danger. of all the promises donald trump made, the one i detail most is 350 ships for our navy. we need submarines, replacement for the ohio class. , teddy roosevelt greatness, and i think donald trump will deliver. ♪

you think donald trump has teddy roosevelt greatness in him? hugh: yes. charlie: why? hugh: because he comes from this is city, and this city develops an expansive view of the possible. it is more around new york and you think anything can be done. look at what happens here, this building which we are in, i wish all the people in america could see the bloomberg building and how extraordinary a it is. i think what donald trump imagines for the midwest, you know, charlie, and my law school hometown in ann arbor, the downtown in the 1980's, it is

alive now because of google putting their second major cap is there and the united states. everything is alive with feeder systems, intellectual growth. apple, tim cook, what it should build in wisconsin question markets going to work. charlie: what worries you about trump? hugh: he can wear us out. most retreat from the headlines for a given period. flooded theama zone, but with a tone that was .alm, condescending at times if we are put on a roller coaster, a daily diet of controversy, politics is not supposed to be that important. religion, community -- charlie: and at some point do you run out your welcome? yes.

2018 is close at hand. he has to deliver on his promises and make people feel less threatened. there are centerleft people, center-right people, consultants , not ideological, successful parents and business people, and donald trump has been in a not. our grandchildren will be talking about it like they talked about the 1963 march for mobilization against the war. charlie: women on the move? hugh: women on the move. the tea party of the left forming and what does president do? i hope respond with generosity and direct infrastructure into communities,ileged competed i

to do things for people left behind. charlie: do you think they have to replace model? hugh: yes, tom price does. there are many models. he is a great believer in the one national market and in taking down artificial barriers and reducing mandatory procedures, covered benefits, driving it down. my last job in government was to administer the federal employees health benefits at opm, and we had one packet for every employee in the d.c. area with 600 options. that is what we needs. that is what tom price believes. charlie: talk to me about trump's ideas. did he want to be president, set out to be president, influenced by people who said to him you need to figure out a way to appeal to the right and the old-right in american politics, and one way to do that is the birther issue because it will get you a lot of attention, and

then build on that by talk about building a wall? did he do that as part of political strategy, or was donald trump who really had a sense of what was at the heart of the american angst? hugh: i think it is the latter. all of my experience with trump is on the record, 15 extended interviews, to off the record conversations. the record conversations. i found him to be noble, curious, open to ideas. i had five suggestions and he took them. he was listening. another one of those conversations -- he does not like to be embarrassed. it was an embarrassing moment, and we had to get past that. and i along just fine have my trump tattoos to prove it, but this is the business we have chosen.

intellectually, i don't think he is a reader. i think he is a listener. i think he brings people in. my counterfactual on that is that the best thing i know about donald trump, stymied in his attempt to recruit mitt romney, which were political not man,nal, he turned to a robert gates, and said would you think? he said you ought to talk to rex tillerson. he not only followed up, but he chose him. that is very hopeful. tea might have done that with general mattis talking about torture. hugh: that's true. charlie: how do you lay that hisnst two things, one, sensitivity to any question of legitimacy. the sense he cannot let go of that feeling he thinks the

media was unfair. i think he genuinely believes that, but he can't let go of it. hugh: i worked for richard nixon a long time, who also had that feeling. charlie: and lots of others do. hugh: nixon was justified. they were out to get him to nevertheless come you have to get over it. nixon stopped watching tv. answer. the don't watch tv. president trump loves tv, and that is a good source of information. charlie: the washington post has a thing about how, but it is not .omputers he tweets, but not because he sits there with his own device, according to the washington post. he watches television in the morning. hugh: he watches you in the morning. charlie: during the campaign, he said he learned a lot by about the iran nuclear debates. hugh: did you ever hear his

, whereny about the u.n. the united states ought to pay for the remodeling of the u.n.? i think he is a builder, and senator corker agrees with me, another developer. what is on my critical path today? who can help me get to that end result? act onbring the men and their advice. that is president trump. that is not obama, a law professor, but a builder of buildings that are tall and strong and very complex. charlie: you would say that goes with the territory, if you don't have it, you will never be president? hugh: i started to mention john meacham and andrew jackson. , andrikes me as jackson jackson change the politics of the country like trump is changing the politics of the country by sheer force of will. yourie: donald trump in

judgment has the opportunity to probably the country as much as anybody since ronald reagan? hugh: president obama had the biggest economic opportunity. if he had moved slightly to the it.le, he could have done he moved to the left instead. if donald trump can drag the republicans to the center on infrastructure, immigration reform -- charlie: you mentioned bob gates. bob gates has been here a lot at this table, 30 conversations. he says the most important quality for a president is temperament. fdr, someone set of first-class temperament, second-class intellect, so temperament, fdr was joyce in the job. donald trump has been on the show and has been joyful. dating wasing the

off, but you're right. -- i hope hethe likes being president. i wonder about the first disaster that will calm, newtown, orlando, how he will leave the country. charlie: many first reactions where it is grim, it is dark, it, yound after reading said you came to like it more. hugh: it is growing on me. the academy awards came out today. the best is "moonlight." it takes me to a place i have never been. he was talking about places in america which are hellish to is difficulte it no matter race or orientation, and he was speaking truth things about difficult places in the country.

now he has to go do something about it. me, asech is growing on is his commitment to islam and terrorism. way,ie: in an interesting he seems to have also come to is,idea that he, and he very interestingly says, there is a movement. i did not create the movement. i simply saw the movement and and now a voice of that movement. brexit.that came out of he was very impressed by what happened with brexit. it gave him a sense he could win this thing. hugh: and your muscle memory. alle were like the nfl, media would be in concussion protocol because we are shocked about what happened on november 8. charlie: what do you think he saw? hugh: the crowds, and i dismissed them. charlie: i saw michael dukakis

-- hugh: red rock, mitt romney had a lot of people at red rock. of people thousands there that never come out for republicans, crowds and democratic heartland turned out to see donald trump. that is what i dismissed. charlie: who is the most pragmatic, ronald reagan, richard nixon, donald trump? ronald reagan. he told me that. i am an endangered species lawyer. he did not care. john whitaker said -- he was playing a great game, and he did not care about domestic policy. hugh: hugh hewitt, the conservative playbook for a lasting gop majority. he calls it the fourth way. charlie: thank you. stay with us.

right back in a moment. ♪

philosophernch dashes here, his book is the genius of judaism, the resurgence of anti-semitism and reflects on the jewish state of israel and explores what it means to be a chosen people and the foundations of jewish thought.

in the new york times editorial, he cautioned americans to be wary, jewish-americans to be wary, of president trump. i am pleased to have him back at this table we have known each other for a long time and have been doing conversations at this table and at tables in paris for more than 20 years, so welcome back. >> thank you. charlie: president trump. been as someone who has engaged in politics of your own home state in france, you have seen the rise of populism in europe. populist -- was a your response to what you have heard so far in the presidency of donald trump? a response. it is a stupor. i was astonished. a presidential address where he insulted the whole

establishment. way, the american people, and even the world. , his backs in langley the names ofo those officers of the cia who died for the fatherland, he spoke only of himself. of the size of the crowd on washington, d.c. in such a childish way. to be in front of the cia with the wall of the dead and to speak of the sides of his crowd for his own, this was so strange. on to say heid go did not trust the cia and

criticize them for decisions they make, but there in front of that wall, and secondly, he did he would be their strongest defender and all that, but it got lost in all these remarks about crowd size and everything else. chief,he commander in but also the -- of the american democracy. the freedom of the press, the respect of the opinion of others, is a pillar of democracy , and the best democracy in the world, which is american democracy. i am surprised to see a president saying it, i am at war with the press. it is very strange. i am surprised to see that when people demonstrate in the streets, his first reaction was to say -- no, to demonstrate is

a right, especially when the popular vote was in favor of hillary clinton. is frankly so bizarre, so strange, and when you see the ,omparison with barack obama barack obama obama was so different, so wise. he showed such a coolness in the way of transmitting the flame of the state. would like to have seen barack obama and the u.s. government do more in areas, human rights? you would like to have seen american leadership exercise more. bernard-henri: i would like to see it exercising itself in syria, preventing the carnage in

aleppo. charlie: that was the same barack obama who you had been praising -- bernard-henri: yes. charlie: i pointed that out because of what you have written about the horror of aleppo. bernard-henri: i praise him for his decency. politics is not perfect. i would not praise him for the about the in the u.n. palestinian state. this was not a good resolution. it was bad timing to do that. story betweena democrats and republicans. it is not an affair of being right or left. it is an affair of being fit for office or not.

hope,, the whole world trump,ing and hoping for revising his attitude. charlie: you have populism in france with marine le pen. bernard-henri: yes. charlie: could she be president of france? bernard-henri: i could not imagine trumping president of america, so i will not make a prediction. in america,elected everything is possible everywhere. we are during a time for various reasons, in particular because of -- charlie: because of the loss of jobs, the fear -- bernard-henri: not the loss of jobs. the barack obama era did not do so badly in terms of jobs.

charlie: no, no, the unemployment rate went from to four.nine it has upset their own economic security. bernard-henri: obamacare was not carnage. charlie: that language you thought was terribly inappropriate? bernard-henri: yes, it was and for me one of the reasons of this rise of truth,m is the lack of the idea that the truth is not exist any longer. this false truth -- charlie: or alternative facts. bernard-henri: yes, alternative facts. even this affair of the size of the crowd, it had no sense to see this discussion with photos and so on. charlie: one last question about

trump. you wrote in the new york times, we cannot rule out the signalsity that trump to israel may have sinister effects in the long term or short term based on those who would be only too happy to see the united states making unilateral, a negotiated decisions, therefore opening the way to other uses of force. this is one of the reasons why i was opposed to the resolution of the u.n.. i believe these issues have to be discussed in a different way. i think that the two parties should know, and there cannot be , it has to be discussed in a different way. it is true on one side, it is true on the other side. mr. trump, apparently, the new aministration has discovered

, maybelove for israel for some personal reasons. he has been on the phone with benjamin netanyahu in the last 24 hours. bernard-henri: i know. i hope he will not use the case of israel to show -- these matters regarding israel are so burning issues. they are questions of death and life. they cannot be discussed and decided like this. charlie: do you believe the two state solution is slipping away? bernard-henri: i think it is still alive. the two state solution is still alive, and i think it is the only solution. hell,ate solution or for the palestinians, but also the security of israel.

if israel has to remain israel, it has to be with the two state solution. if not we will have a national state with jews being a minority. charlie: but having all the power? ok, but israel was not based on power. israel was based on the dream to build a special state, not to build a strong state only. this is not the core of the dream of israel. anti-semitism in your judgment on the rise? bernard-henri: it is on the rise, yes. charlie: why is that? bernard-henri: it took a new shape and a new narrative. the new narrative of anti-semitism is anti-zionism.

efficiently to be anti-semitic is to be anti-zionist. ews under the hate of israel. this feeling is growing all over the world, including america. charlie: they call it hate against the state, and in fact it is hate against the jews. bernard-henri: if it was hate of the state or compassion to the palestinian victims, you would see the same compassionate people expressing their compassion for the victims in syria, the victims of genocide , so many places in the world, so there is this dedication of hate which has no other explanation than the redressing of the old hate

against the jews. this is a new form of anti-semitism, and the world has not yet found a reply against this new hate. this is one of the reasons why i wrote this book. it gives ammunition, to give weapons and ammunition, moral ammunition to those who want to wave, the new black new anti-semitism. charlie: this is you handing them verbal, passionate, moral arguments against anti-semitism? and whatenri: yes, anti-sign is and does. it did legitimizes -- d legitimizes israel. that as liberals, we should not condemn, but praise israel on the very ground of the

ineral values israel has many aspects, lessons to give to a lot of people in the world in terms of democracy, in terms of the weight of dealing with minorities, in terms of how to fight terrorism, how to behave in a state of war. along these topics, israel behaves well. charlie: here is my point. that is about the state of called but this book is the genius of judaism, not the genius of israel. it is about your faith. bernard-henri: absolutely. that is the first part of the book. the second part of the book is devoted to my faith, my creed, the faith of a nonbeliever. one of the things i tried to explain is that you can be a jew without believing. charlie: without believing in?

bernard-henri: in god, or without believing in the sky. aspects, the greatest aster, what is required from jew is less belief than to study. inis less to mix one's self the mystic communion than to go on and on in the knowledge to understand better the world, so for me, the genius, intelligent study and the sense of the other. charlie: is this something that has been part of your core as long as you have been alive? or is this something you came to? i know other friends of mine who came to a greater love and appreciation of their judaism later in life. book, i'mnri: this

working on it since years and even decades. i am writing it in a sort of secrecy since maybe 20 years. charlie: you mean taking notes and filing them away? bernard-henri: studying. for example, there is commentary on the book of jonah, joan is a to the ordered to go worst city in the world. what does it mean for a prop jew, tor an average you, to go to the capital of sin? it took years to understand what it meant and why it is so important to go and preach, to go and speak, to someone who is completely opposite to you.

this is the core of what i call the the genius of judaism. to go to nineveh. today.way, it is mosul a few yearsbe libya ago, it may be a lot of things. when i went to libya, when i went in bangladesh 40 years ago, i had the feeling to follow the trail of those jews who believe that to be a jew did not mean to inside a closed and gated community. judaism is not a gated community. it is an open message. inis a way to be involved the accomplishment, the reparation, of the world. judaism does not address to jews

only. there is one quote which comes on and on in the jewish text, which is the jewish first has to be read as if it had 70 faces, beautiful quote. 70 faces for the first, it means what? 70 is the number of nations on believes every jew that to be a jew is to read the text and first as if it was addressed to all the nations of the world, and not only to a gated community. this is what i mean by the genius of judaism. charlie: when you say jews are the chosen people? bernard-henri: when i say the jews are a chosen people, i what they they say -- demonstrate his number one that

they were not chosen at all. torah, was given first to all the other people of the world, and it is because they refused, they declined, that in despair god is supposed to have given it to these 12 thiss at the foot of this an mountain. to receive this law is not a chance, a privilege, but a huge burden, and what the torah says that if you think because you have received the law that you sanctity,t of natural it is the biggest mistake you can do. this is the story of a great character of the bible, the cousin of moses, who believes to be king of the world.

hole in thea huge earth which swallows him and his 250 followers. so chosen people means none of the common things which are set about that. i try to expand also why the hebrew world to express the chosen people is secular -- it ,eans secret, a secret treasure so what i believe is the juice, , we are a secret treasure which escorts the rest of humanity secretly in the work of their own history. this to me is to properly be a jew and the genius of judaism.

charlie: bernard-henri levy has been a singular voice on the stage. he is making a film about what happened in mosul. a philosopher and activist who confronts his spiritual roots, but what he had never fully reckoned with. , you have never fully reckoned with what? bernard-henri: to provide this book takes time, and it is, it needs another sort of speed, another sort of regime of the since 20-30ce 203 --rs, i was nvidia, bosnia bosnia, but this

foundation is what i would have to reckon. it needed to go deep to a tradition -- charlie: do you feel liberated from a burden you had to carry, to explain the depth of your own love? bernard-henri: not from a burden. charlie: you felt this heavy sense of responsibility? you have been thinking about this for 20 years, you said. bernard-henri: i always felt a asponsibility, that my duty a man, a writer and philosopher, nvolve, when this carnage is going on, when you have some genocide, i always thought that. little better now having written this book why i feel that, with which sort of weapons i can face this

situation with efficiency, and this is what this a jewish text tells me. i don't feel it from a burden. i feel joyful -- charlie: liberation can be joyful, liberation that i had this response but he and i now fulfilled it. responsible to tell a story that was deep inside of me. no burden, no responsibility, just an act of love? bernard-henri: and not fulfilled. how can one be fulfilled when you are a contemporary of the massacre of aleppo? how could one not feel shame, shame, not to have been able to express the indignity of what was happening in aleppo? so not fulfillment. i did not do enough. i would not have enough the rest of my life to do all that -- charlie: i argued that to do

this obviously you felt deeply about it, and now you have put it together, and as you said, given people a weapon to use in the fight against anti-semitism. bernard-henri: in terms of the fight, in terms of self pride also. for me, it is important that the jews of today feel proud of their values. i defend affirmative -- charlie: and proud of their faith. bernard-henri: proud of their faith. proud of their commitment, and proud of their values. charlie: and their culture. bernard-henri: yes. : the genius of judaism,levy bernard-henri levy. thank you for joining us. ♪

yvonne: asia pacific markets are seeing extending the global rally, and the dow topped 20,000 for the first time. president trump pushes forward for his plans with the mexican wall. net income fell 80%. >> and theresa may heads to washington, telling reporters america and britain can be the world again. yvonne: