>> this is charlie rose. charlie: president trump stirred controversy in a pre-super bowl interview. aesident trump suggested moral equivalency between the united states and russia. trump: there are a lot of killers. do you think the country is so innocent? bill o'reilly: i do notdo you to know of any government leaders that are killers.

trump: we have made a lot of mistakes. charlie: he insisted that president trump wants to start fresh with vladimir putin. -- ing me now welcome. everybody wants to understand what is the resistance of to criticize or separate out vladimir putin. >> it is the one thing he has been remarkably consistent on. and who will pay for it. to understand why, we have the intelligence community reporting russianacking of the government. the intelligence community says that they think that the the election to elect trump and i think there is a fealty there.

i think that he just likes the guy. there is an affinity for this .dolescent version of manliness charlie: the horseback did it for him. john claudeig. all, van damme, all of these action heroes. have an example of what makes a manly man and a strong man. leader: he would be a for his country. not for hours. but for theirs. it is a sense of giving russia distinctive needs. >> for whatever reason, either because the russians have something on him, which we need proof of, or because he understands what the russians

want and they hate being lectured to. they want to be seen as a pier in geopolitical influence and an equal to be political partner. you have heard from russian spokesman that there is an talking to donald andp as equals understanding that each country has national interests and that there is no lecturing or moralizing. this has been a key point. i do not know if he understands forkor if he hit a tuning at the right place. >> he talked about the personal andnity that trump has

there is an ideological affinity that seems to be present and it seems to be of a more interesting and greater concern for america, saying something about how he may govern and there is something very personal is andovernment and who is not privileged in a society. equivalencyut moral in what trump said about killers and i heard more moral indifference and a sense that there was not really a moral aspect to his choices as a , in the same way you might imagine. come off asit could

apologetic or introspection and andomes across as a shrug when trump uses the word, "killer, he uses it when he praises when trump uses the real estate. charlie: they were killers. >> there is a sense that he wants to do things like prudent does them. isgree with amy that this the and parcel of isolationist realism of trump espoused and you with the ideological

affinity. this is what vladimir putin and the russians have said. you guys are no better than us. therefore, everything is permissible and everything is allowed. you take morality out of the equation and it becomes cynical and conspiratorial. it is a point of affinity between donald trump and vladimir putin. protest, come out in by the statepaid department and hillary clinton. when people protest donald

trump, they are paid by george soros. those who did not vote for him in the presidential election were illegal. >> first, what nikki haley said was that what vladimir putin has ukraine and crimea should not stand. donald trump has not been talking like that. you had rudy giuliani, chris christie, all of these republicans talking about how evil vladimir putin is and how evil russia is. i wondered if they had talked to their candidate. it is funny to think about the lack of coordination and policy. donald trump publicly flirts with lifting sanctions and a senior member of the administration says they will not. until trump did not know, he was corrected, that russia was in crimea. nikki haley says it is part of

the ukraine and always will be. people joked that she was speech. samantha powers' there are consequences to this thefighting has flared in eastern ukraine again. 30 have been killed in the last week and tens of thousands of people have been evacuated from their homes and there is actors on the ground with russian rebels and maneuvering starting ofget active with a lack certainty and there is a bigger bargaining position. >> he doesn't have any actual influence on what happens.

they say there should be more lethal aid and the ukrainians it is just beautiful words and it doesn't mean anything, practically. ofi think this is a theory 15 tanks and russia gives them 16. the russians want it more. if we give the ukrainians something, the russians will give them that and one more. they want it more and there is re, especially in europe. , withe: do you think that what prudent has said -- what vladimir putin has said, he would be more likely to move against baltic countries and

thete what he has done in ukraine in the baltic countries? receptive to confusion on the other side and this will widen a range of options. to pick up on something that was ,aid that has an effect on this the republican convention and disquiet ande was discomfort. there was, ultimately, deference. just seemed befuddled , when he was defending the comments of donald trump and backing away from clearly saying that he thought there was a moral superiority to the

american position. >> in the could not say it. note looked like he was sure what would please the boss and that mattered to him. that is where a lot of republicans are. we have not really seen a republican party that is really going to take a stand. charlie: these are arguments about vladimir -- why donald trump had nothing critical to say about vladimir putin. one is that there is something there and another is that he has a geopolitical idea that he can use vladimir putin or he can join with russia to fight isis. >> i think there is a lack of interest in things that were in

, europe,ion, nato commitments, messages sent to allies. bond, he willled say that isis is worse and why not have the russians do all the work. it is a complicated question. later with the turks. beendon't think he has weighing his relationship with vladimir putin and saying it is tough and he needs him to fight terrorism. i think it is an ideological issueand i think it is an of how little he values the relationship with europe. i do not think that we have a sign that he is sitting there

and talking about what saves the most american lives. charlie: do you think that the people who say that they need to talk tough to russia will make a difference? >> i do not. you had mad us say that he was categorically against a muslim tis said he was heinst a muslim ban and enacted one. he needed tod what say to the foreign relations committee to get the votes and to go to the senate for a vote. after that, i am sure that there is going to be deference to the

administration. putin, investment in donald trump, hacking, electeddonald trump get -- which i do not think he thought would happen -- but it has been the best investment. they do not have to invade the baltics or moldova. .hey don't have to test nato >> it is the inverse of western soft power. they had festered under communist rule and they are now striving for the western style economy and it would be seen to

, and more more moral prosperous. chaoscerbates political in europe and the united states. these countries that we have been striving for do not want us and they are overrun with muslim migrants. these are conservative laces. .ou see countries, like moldova everybody thought they would be next. now, they have elected as a man who ran as a miniature version of vladimir putin and compared to him. he never had to invade or send a

andle green man to moldova i think we will see that with the baltics. trump is a pragmatist who opens up new avenues by being able to negotiate. they open them up for prudent and -- charlie: finish. whether he intended to or not, whether he thinks that vladimir putin can offer this or not, it has narrowed the options. >> i completely agree. written the who has art of the deal and said he is a .reat deal maker

put them in you can place. you are not getting anything from us and we are not talking about nuclear arms reduction or anything. it was unilateral and there will be unilateral action again. in flirting with this, he has given up any leverage or bargaining position the united states would have had, going in. >> you believe that vladimir absence of ahe response from donald trump has a looking at him and saying that he is the stronger leader and that is the place where you have to make sure you do not offend and you find a common ground, economic or otherwise. >> you have seen that in the addle east and it filled

vacuum that the obama left by noton saying how involved they would get in syria, if at all. you see allies trending towards russia and making more trips to it has benefited vladimir putin. he uses his increased profile in the middle east and negotiates a russian opec deal to cut production and boost oil prices. isis playing this for all it worth. >> he is playing the bad hand well. world, it isf the not just looking towards the united states or russia. conflict over trump's

phone call. china is also an option for a lot of countries, not just asia. there was a commercial power and morece that seems to have of a plan and there is the possibility of countries not looking anywhere. ande were civil conflicts there was not an idea of an arbiter or an international voice to listen to or turn to, making conflict more internally , withoutithout referee anyone to trust. obamayou think that the administration was retreating? >> i do not believe that was the effect of the obama

administration. you can say whether obama leads to donald trump and whether everything he does gets counted in the trump column. >> there was a point about the middle east and how the saudi's and others, because if the red after, wed what came are not sure that the united states has our back like they used to. >> the administration deserves more credit and it gets for a voice with alliances people still turn to this. a lot has been going on with our allies during the obama years with questions of the year p.m.

project and it is hard to say that he should have just yelled at the europeans. obama era, obama was a to inthat people listened a consider way and people don't know what to make of him. >> he has called nato obsolete. >> that is where the bar is. >> we have gone from one extreme to another. i wonder what practical difference there is, in the end. we have gone from a president who over analyzed things and would think himself into a pretzel and we have gone to a president who does not seem to think at all and seems to just think with his amygdala. >> you know more about brain science.

reference in a political discussion. firstve made the reference to the amygdala. littlee is emotion and conscious intellectual thought. going back to the point of australia and other countries turning to china and this is a hast where donald trump handed over the whole deck of cards to china and gave them everything they want. >> to the question of whether there is a difference in the playing out of the over and under thinking, there is a difference and, if you think there is somebody overthinking, you think. if you think somebody is not doing it, where does that leave

you? can you enter the discussion? charlie: thank you for joining us. we will be back and talk about the super bowl and other things.

>> everybody knows that the

patriots won the super bowl. and hedy led the charge got his fourth super bowl mvps. in under tomifth w brady and bill belichick. have a studio analyst from the nfl today and al michaels is the lead play-by-play announcer football and has called nine super bowl's for network television. i am pleased to have them both here to look back at the remarkable football game. what happened to atlanta? >> when you look at this, there are two things. how would they respond in the game?part of the

i thought they could get by the first quarter and the fine. there were tactical errors and a bit of an opening for tom brady and tom brady took the opening and he ran with it. seized the moment. charlie cole and the largest lead overcome before was just 10 points. charlie: the largest lead overcome before was just 10 points. >> again, there were circumstances there. you go back to the fourth quarter and, when you have a .ead, the clock is your ally you do not coach the same way. it is all about finishing the game.

there were a couple of i am ok with and understand, but you go to the jones acrobatic catch four minutes to go and the ball is on the 22-yard line and you have a kicker who has made 28-29 and you run the ball. you kick the field goal and you have a championship. >> how do you see it? >> first, it is the greatest unscripted drama in the history of television and this is why people love the nfl. i'm curious of what bill things about the following. 28-9 and he missed the extra point. new england is racing down the field and they are inside the 5-10 yard line and i thought it

was interesting that bill belichick one for a field goal. and iwas a lot of yards thought that he was trying to make it a two possession game. it is one thing when you are down by 16 points. touchdowns and two-point conversion's. he did the calculus that way. remainingfew minutes on the clock, i was surprised he would go for it. but everything worked out perfectly for them and the catch by julian will be forefront of our minds. jones made the impossible catch. : i don't know how to shut down jones. has -- who he is.

how do they shut him down? >> there is a stat that becomes glaring and the falcons are one-eight on the way down. it is hard for them, particularly as the game goes on offense has not been on the field. lot of time where they held the ball and they were not scoring. you saw atlanta's scoring and you go back to the fourth sideer with time on your and you are snapping the ball, running the football, building the lead. clock management is a thing that

comes up and al will tell you that. something that is not always mastered by many. >> the momentum factor and the momentum is a cliche, but you can feel it yesterday. there was a fumble and, if they had scored here and got the ball comingou could feel it and they snatched defeat from the jaws of victory. ran 95 plays. they are going to be gassed.

what did brady do? >> what he has done for many years. he is 39 years and i think he is enjoying football more than ever ,nd he realizes that the end who knows, he could play other four or five years, but it is a thing where you see the athletes come down and it is almost like they appreciated more. there was an email exchange i , inafter the game that said my mind, you are the greatest of all time and he said, i am not the greatest of all time, i am -- all time.to i'm just blessed to play with good coaches and a great team.

he loves to prepare the game and he is enjoying it more. >> also, he has the perfect coach for him. >> yes. he does. him,ted bill and i told congratulations. you talk about resiliency and a team that plays with tremendous focus and he responded back by saying there were a bunch of tough guys. you talk about the patriots and bill belichick and they win with humility. this is going to be about the organization and the people around him and i think that is what it is. this a selfless place and

permeates down and through and this is a football team where you check your ego in at the door. there are a lot of of players who have done that and walked away with a ring. >> that catch. have you seen anything like it? things that look like miracles to those of us with limited ability. it was extraordinary. >> the karma comes back and it works in your favor. there was that catch and it led to the giants wrecking a perfect season and there was a phenomenal catch along the sidelines that led to a victory and jones made a catch and you

go againsty catches them and they got a huge one to go for them. >> what was the genius of ill belichick? >> he was continually coaching and he did not overreact at the half. think that time was against them and there was a tactical or turnover that took place and they seized the opportunity. that is what the great coaches do, staying focused and i don't think you saw a sense of panic. >> what should matt ryan take away from this game? >> this is a tough one and this

is a stinging loss for the falcons. you wonder if you can come back and how you do. coach of the san diego chargers when they lost to the 49ers in the 1990's and we had them on in a monday night game. the super bowl had been played did it takehow long to get over this loss and he said he was not over the loss. if you are coaching this team, you want to put it behind you and look to the future. right that it is ross beat us the year before. the one thing is that there is a

very young football team with a and itcleus of players is another thing to get back there and this is not the end of something. this is the start of an expectation that has been set and you look forward and you know what the feeling is and it motivates you. charlie: it is a young team and they showed how to get to tom brady. you on the field and you see the experience pay off. pressure that you can feel here and you are going to seize the moment. >> what do you do and what does

a coach do? >> the one thing i would say is that there is a good scheme early in the game and i thought that tom brady looked confused and off, at times. plays,that, the more he the more he gets comfortable and, at some point, you have to adjust. deceptivecome more and you make adjustments in the third or the fourth quarter and you are not getting pressure and i would love to see some chances in this and i felt like he got away with the early success. , you geter in the game back and you change it up. , that is a great

point and, in watching the game, there was a pressure on tom brady and there was no pressure, suddenly. you begin to wonder. obviously, what you are doing is you are giving a receiver a chance to get free. the offensive line took over and there was no pressure. >> you covered a handshake between roger goodell and tom brady. what would you have been saying? >> probably nothing. me, when it is television, you let the picture tell the story and you do not try to put into the minds of people what you think could be there. i think robert kraft did a side door thing about how special

tom brady, and a lot of people said he was extra-motivated, and tom brady does not need extra motivation. he is motivated to win. , hee is playing pinochle wants to kill you. he does not need extra impetus. >> thank you. pleasure. will be right back. stay with us.

we are joined now by the chief international affairs columnist of politico. subject of here new article. please to have them back on the program. what makes jim baker jim baker? >> that is why we started this project. he was the secretary of state and the gold standard for the runf of staff and he had five different republican presidential campaigns. is difficult to marry

politics and foreign policy in the way that baker did and i attribute this to the fact that he has skills to read a problem -- is always you have this new guy who talks about the art of the deal and i think it is interesting to jim aker, trying to work through this puzzle of donald trump, attracted by the possibility that donald trump offers and the critique of how you make a deal with mexico, when you are busy angering them. >> when he was the secretary of state for george bush and the gulf war was upon them, he said, sad's father and

i went 13 times and he said, i am not joining you. theent 14 times and, on 15th, he said, i will. it was because baker had the focus in the sense of, if i just keep at this, i will obtain my objective. >> that is where the early the trump team has come down. flouting what makes good policy in the white house and he is blown away by a white house with sue may be -- with so many power centers. said, one power center is too

many in the white house, if you are the chief of staff and it is not you. interesting thing about baker is that he understands power. does he think that they misused the power? >> i don't think the critique is around executive overreach. alienatione idea of re institutions in washington is not how you get things done. to criticize the comparison of ronald reagan. ronald reagan did not want to blow up the system. he wanted to use it to his ends and he thought that that is a lesson that people that the trump team -- in the trump team have not absorbed.

you have to figure out how to work with people and what political constraints are. >> he says that they should not act as the lawyer of israel. >> this is the view of jim they care. he was an advisor to jeb bush and he gave a speech, saying this point and he felt that the settlements by israel, which are moving ahead, have a big obstacle to peace. it makes many in the netanyahu coalition. trump has suggested politics are changing. by baker is that, if the united states wants to broker a peace deal and peace

between the israelis and palestinians. semi-honestbe a broker? they should not be isolationist. >> that is what is amazing about the traditional republicans supporting trump. of and he is aue classic internationalist. they are really disturbed and they do not know what to make of the america-first rhetoric, which seems to verge on a new isolationism. it is not what jim baker wants. motto of proudl preparation prevents poor performance.

working on the book about him, you see that he is a model of that. he has come prepared, testing things out, with a combination of legal training and recognition that, if you really want to run an airtight process in washington, it requires tremendous discipline. i am not sure what he would make of this overwhelming social media and twitter era. there are media inputs that everybody is dealing with. >> he knows the secretary of state. >> he does. rex tillerson is a hunting buddy. they have gone hunting together at someas talked, links, about the job. he has concerns about rex tillerson being the secretary of state, when he has just met

donald trump. that the mostme important qualification for the secretary of state is to have a strong relationship with the president and he and george bush had a strong relationship. .> exactly right it was unique, in many ways. he and bush went back decades. his was the godfather of daughter, as he reminded me. this enabled him to seamlessly work in a chaotic moments, when the cold war was coming to an end and the soviet union was breaking up part. he said that the test of the presidentip is if the defends you, even when you do something he doesn't like. that is where rex tillerson is

going into this new relationship with trepidation. >> did jim baker have any imports with bush 43 in his closeness to the family? in thebaker who helped efforts with the court case that got the presidency. are good question that we still unraveling. did, he is very mentioned vietnam and iraq in the interview and he was cautious, unlike brents go baker who came out and in ait clear

baker-fashion, not causing an open rupture with bush. in hindsight, it is clear he was opposed to the invasion of iraq. closenessntained a i think that he has always identified as being bush's friend and confidant. i think both of the bush sons need to be loyal to the family partners, like baker, but want to be their own men, when it comes to political careers. at key points, baker was conducted by bush and there is no doubt in my mind that bush was aware that baker did not

think invading iraq was a good idea. charley: because baker is different, unconventional, campaigned differently, transitioned differently, taken his -- because trump is different, unconventional, campaigned differently, transitioned differently, taking his first two weeks differently, that he will do good things? >> baker strikes me as a deal maker and he is optimistic, always looking for possibilities. he sees possibilities with trump there are possibilities to reset the foreign policy areas that baker was critical of and i think that he is not one to

the door isat slammed on trump and compiling a new record. i think that he is interested in the ways he can reset foreign policy. he is a pragmatist and she is a realist and it is hard to see diplomacy getting a big boost. >> does he understand the relationship between vladimir putin and donald trump? >> we did not talk extensively about that and he did make a point to say to me that he has anded with vladimir putin so has rex tillerson. it is not necessarily a disqualification. american leaders engage with counterparts. neither do i or any of us.

nobody, at this point, can really unravel the mystery of why donald trump continues to and isvladimir putin critical of american allies and partners. it is a mystery. >> he thinks that settlements on the west bank are not a good idea. >> he has been clear that settlements are a way of foreclosing a possibility of a deal and he has always been conscious of israel and the palestinian state having to trade some of the territory to on the ground.s today, there was a bill that would retroactively legalize a number of settlements and it was inflammatory. it comes before netanyahu comes here next week and i think that

there are expectations that are sky high in israel and they finally have a president who --l break with jim breaker jim baker. >> also, moving the capital. >> that is right. thate were really bracing and i had lots of people say to me that they think there could be bodies in the streets, depending on how trump chooses to handle this. >> what is the title of the biography? >> in no, we have not worked it out. the frame for the book is, "the man who ran washington when world." n ran the charley: thank you for joining us. see you next time. ♪

♪ host: the trouble administration tells an appeals court the suspense and of the travel ban was a judicial overreach. china is in a fault as pressure grows on the yuan. host: bob iger says he wants to stay on at disney. >> australia's trade minister says they can go ahead minus the united states on the tpp. host: