♪ announcer: from our studios in new york city, this is "charlie rose." ursula burns is here, the chairman and former c.e.o. of xerox. she has spent her entire career at xerox starting as an intern in 1980. that was 37 years ago. she was raised by single mother in a housing project on the lower east side of manhattan. she later went on to earn a masters degree in mechanical engineering at columbia university. in 2009, she became the first african american woman to lead a fortune 500 company. i pleased to have her here at this table. unbelievable, for the first time. welcome. >> thank you.

i am unbelievably honored. charlie: it is my honor. is it hard to no longer be the c.e.o.? >> not at all? charlie: you have led this company. you have set it on its present course. >> not at all. i think there is time for everything. the time for everything. this was perfect timing for me. 37 years, in the company. i know it inside and out. i know the plumbing. i know the tooling, the people. i know a large number of the customers in the markets, competitors, etc. after a while, you kind of rerun things in your mind or in actuality. i believe what you go through it two or three times, it is probably a good idea to get someone who has never been through it before. i still love the place.

i'm still involved with the place. but i think it was perfect timing. charlie: the late mark giovanni, the president of you -- yale. i think he was president of the national league even though he loved the american league because of the red sox. >> don't go there. [laughter] charlie: growing up on the lower east side of manhattan, you did not grow up a red sox fan. >> not at all. charlie: there is this. years, after eight or 10 that is a shorter time than you served, you sort of are beginning to repeat yourself. it and seely believe it not only in my career but being on boards i serve on. it is not that you cannot keep going and do well. you are not going to drive the bus off the road were into a ditch. the question becomes at that point, can you differentially

improve the organization? can you differentially do it? there is a point where it is hard to change. and so, i think when you get to that point, it is a really good idea, particularly if you have good candidates inside, that you say, here it is. is yours, take it charlie: it is yours -- it is yours, take it. it is one of the most important things. i think there are three constituents you have to worry about or three things you have to do when you become a c.e.o. for many years. one is you have to have a great board. the second is you have a strategy and process for thinking about change, value creation, constituents, etc. that whole piece. the third is, who is going to run the place? of the want to run the place is in some way offensive. you are not really running the place.

something guy doing you have no clue about keeping the power going etc.. running the place is tone, tenor , pace, risk. personality. i call it the soul of the company. after a while, it is probably a good idea that it changes. charlie: you think it is necessary even if you are the founder to give it up? >> i think especially if you are a founder. i call it the myth of the man. generally, founders have a longer run and probably could have a longer run. but i think particularly for of thety and assurance change, fororph and founders it is important to eventually -- even if you just step out and become the chair -- you've got to see this great institution you created run

under many different circumstances. not only by your eye. for founders, it is a really important thing. charlie: is it wise for the c.e.o. to be chairman of the board? >> i think it is more than wise. it is preferred from my perspective. that does not mean you don't have a lead, independent director. in my company, we had it structured that way. all the boards i serve on our structured that way. individual,/c.e.o., nav director. pace and specificity of what need to be discussed i thought about. ofated, requires a level proximity and day-to-day chairstion that many cannot do, cannot get. it is kind of a duality that is confusing. lead independent directors are as powerful were as important but narrow to their space of

governments and governing, not operations. that is an important thing. a big deal. charlie: you want a vigorous ford and a board that is independent. , don't think you want a board and i'm basing this on what people tell me, you don't want to board who depend on the income from being a board. >> i don't know if any of these types of people. most of the board members i know -- by the way, we just went through a separation into two companies, to great companies, fortune 500 sized. great leaders. who had to literally find a brand-new board for the second company and the board of xerox combined, i think if you did the hourly wages, they made below minimum wage for the amount of work they had to do and what they are paid. charlie: what happens in a great with yourn is

colleagues who are part of the operational side, you get a sense of what you are doing that works and does not work. you get a sense of where you are missing opportunities. you then set the vision and strategy in the people who help you panic -- hammer it out and figure it out, who bring a multiplicity of experiences. >> it is the board and the management team. necessarilyes not always bring it. they assure it is brought. if they don't have it, they are smart enough to know this question should probably be asked an appropriate set of options and answers should be presented. they don't have to be knowledgeable about doing business in india. they have to know india is an important market. and then assure there is a set of structures and questions and resources brought to bear on that strategic question.

they don't have to walk in with the knowledge in their back pockets. boards are difficult because they have to know their job. i have a board member who told me something, i will not say the name, but he said it to me and i loved it. he said, please remember to forget 90% of what the board says. remember to forget. think about this. what 10% yous keep. he does not mean ignore the guy. boards meet six or seven times a year. for 8, 10, maybe if you are lucky, 12 hours. if they are good board members, they have life, meaning they probably work in some kind of industry. they work somewhere else. they have other interests, other things. i spent all day, my management team all day, and just about all night on these topics.

people come in and say, by the way, the water should be two degrees hotter. you should probably say, thank you very much, that we are probably not going to heed your temperature suggestions. if they say watch the venezuelan , make sure you can talk to me about how you will safeguard your assets. what happens in a board meeting is lots of things get discussed. everything from the temperature of the water to whether or not we should go in a new market or invest a lot of capital in a certain way. you have to be able to sort through that. you do that times eight or nine people. it is a lot. charlie: why not just walk away? here you are, the former c.e.o., hanging around. 2017, alreadying, declared i am out of there.

i am the chairman of the board. by the way, i had an unbelievable set of examples before me on how to do this. i am a goot -- necessarilyon, not the best planner in the world, but he go forward person. i don't like hanging on. a great example is when i was made c.e.o. the c.e.o. deformity stayed on as chairman. she said he will see me for a while. then you will see me less and then i am out of here. her point was, and she told me once as well. she sent to me, you have to make sure you are select because the because thersula company does not need an anne now. it is about giving jeff jacobson the new c.e.o. and their boards and their management teams, many of whom i have selected or grew

up with, the chance to take the company to the next level, the companies to the next level. that is what it is about. i have never been one that solely identified with my work. it does consume the vast majority of my time. and therefore, you worry about when it will not consume the vast majority of your time. but my interests have never been narrowed to how i make xerox the greatest company in the world. that was one of the most important things i did. i have a family i'm interested in. i have social causes i'm interested in. i have a country i'm interested in. i have other interests. i read. there are a bunch of other things. the country had my attention even before. charlie: you have more time now. >> yes. i don't think the intensity for me will change very much. charlie: you were a good citizen. >> i was actively engaged.

it did not matter what administration it happened to be. i happened to be c.e.o. during a democratic administration. i was running a manufacturing plant during the republican administration. it does not matter who is running, but there are certain things i know about what enables business to do better and what enables business across the board to be better. how government can help and hinder. we have a situation and set of circumstances in this country fortunately that the government engages business. they do not always listen, but we can have an audience. talk, so let's proclamationsr can do and will do for business. that is part of the responsibility of businesses. two big decisions i made. one was combining in the second

was leaving. the in and out for big. i think they both were appropriate. charlie: market driven? >> for sure. the end was a great brand with all of the software of the brand. unbelievably well-foundation in all the right sorts. great innovation, amazing employee base who believed there were problems that could be solved. complexity was something they could deal with very well. just a history that was amazing around innovation. that brand company, business, was one that had run to the end of its natural ability as far as it could run without doing a big morph. because technology has changed. everything was changing so

quickly. one of the choices we had was, do you inch along and let some of this stuff after feet that made you great -- atrophy that made you great what you find her way in the dark or do you take big bets and try to extend yourself into a new set of markets with the same foundational elements. we chose to do that, too literally to go forward, to lean forward and take a chance. the great thing about that was at the end of the day, the journey was hard. at the end of the day, and it is showing up in the short term in the market and longer-term in the market as well, we ingested a company called acs. we rejiggered acs. there are some things no longer there. we foundationed it with a level of technology and innovation and business processes that are better. we are at a point now where that company is strong enough and has

a different rhythm, different enough rhythm that keeping it with the old company, xerox, was distracting to both. part of the choice we had to make as a board, and me as the c.e.o. and the management team, you take apart what you just put together just eight years ago? do you take apart? the answer was really simple. the answer was simple because it was the right market. the board did every step of diligence you can imagine. external people looking at it, it internal people looking at it, lawyers looking at it, everybody can imagine. for the market, our customers, our shareholders, it is definitely the best outcome. particularly if we can do it well. weear ago about this time, announced we were going to separate. we were told if you can do it,

it will be fine. there is no way you can get it done in a year. that was one. there is so much breakage when you separate. i call it like a friendly divorce. friendly divorce, it is kind of messy. we went through a really friendly divorce. a lot of acrimony inside, but every decision made with the right foundation. will it be good for the shareholders? pulling it apart. charlie: when you bring it back together? >> we are never going to bring it back together. i think we have done it well. i'm going to eliminate the word "think." we have done it well. we have separated well. charlie: it can turn out in surprising ways. fire, -- viacom, no one

predicted it would end up the way it did. >> there will be all caps of things we did not know or some small thing here or there, but you will find from this point forward, you will see two companies that could not operate as well as they are operating in their modes still together. ♪

♪ charlie: do you think people know what xerox is? >> absolutely. i don't believe people know what it could be. charlie: what do you think they think it is? >> i think they think it is a copying and printing company. nobody makes copiers anymore. generally, with xerox is, or simply what it is, is it takes many different forms of to medications -- communications. the way we still handle it is on paper, but that is not the predominant way anymore. the way that is still the most easy to describe and understand and manage. it is xerox's job to take all these different forms of communication that come into a customer and to organize that and help them manage that in a secure and safe weight.

it does not create the bits and bytes. it does not do a lot of manipulation or management. all these different medias and takes it significantly less painful and help you manager document infrastructure. when it was together, it also managed something like e-zpass. management solutions. you don't want to have to stop and get your document, the dollar out, give it to the guy who gives you another set of documents, coins. is there a way to do this in an automated way to manage this process across everything from order to collection? can you do that seamlessly without thinking about it? without the government infrastructures inking about it? that is what we do for both sides. xerox does the document piece.

we brought them together. charlie: you're confident you left this company and handed it over in great shape, in a good place, and you did what you came to do? >> i am. i'm very confident in that. charlie: you are somebody who comes in as an intern and ends up as a c.e.o. and chairman of the board. >> i did not think i would be there. i did not even know what a c.e.o. was, what a chairman of the board was. i joined the company in 1980. when i joined the company, i had just entered my final year of undergraduate school. i just wanted a job to be an engineer. my thing was an largely still is, my team will tell you this is my management style, i am a technical person. you give me a problem, i will try to wrap some mathematical solution around it and come up

with a solution. that is what i do. that is what it was then. interestingly enough, when things get tough, that is what i go back to now. when i joined the company, for the first eight to 10 years, recall we did not have google. if you wanted to get annual reports, you had to go to the library and get it. nowadays, mye daughter and son arguing about something, it takes a nanosecond to find out who the head of the company is, who the management company is, what they make. that is not how i grew up. i entered xerox and my goal is to be a great engineer, thinking i would leave within for five years, because it was in upstate new york and i am a new yorker. i did not know how far rochester was. i was good at engineering but not geography. i thought it would come back

someplace closer to the city and be an engineer. i got there and i was lucky. luck is an amazing blessing. i was lucky. i picked this great company or they picked me. one that allowed me even in upstate new york to feel like a new yorker, like i could be how i looked, high wanted, the things that were key to me being ursula burns, they did not flush it out of you like you have to look like this and speak like this. it was perfect for me. they gave me lots and lots of chances to do all kinds of things. just insane. we are doing a product in japan. i'm from the lower east side of manhattan. the farthest i have been with florida. the farthest i have been on a plane was to washington, d.c., literally. they said, we have this big product of element thing in japan. you have to go there and spend a couple of weeks. japan, that other place in asia?

i ended up in a great place. they curated, a word i hate to use a lot, but they did curate experiences for me there were toeys a to b tell -- tippy experience a little beyond my reach. but if i jumped really high, i could grab it. i was able to continue to grow in this environment. it was just perfect. charlie: was race an issue? >> for sure. race and gender were issues. gender and age for me were bigger issues in the beginning than race because i was kind of dulled to the race issue. i have dealt with it so many times before that you kind of know how to maneuver. thing,urprised the age you're too young to be able to do this. really? you're going to run xyz, what experience do you have? i have experience.

the only way to fix the age thing is to keep living. gender as well. i was in an engineering environment. i went to manufacturing really early. was is, that back then totally and completely male. that was it. to go there and be, i now look old, but i looked young, i was young. and i was black. another one of those guys? i was a woman as well. really? the good news was we have a philosophy at xerox that you can have -- check it out the door. everything that does not allow you to bring value into the company, leave it at the door. make you a person who understands or wants to have diversity in your life or inclusion. i can't do that. we can try but your parents did that.

i want you when you walk in the door, we have a set of rules we play by. those rules are that we are inclusive. we actually try to look for the value individuals bring. we do believe difference is hard but better. deal with it. we don't like and confidence -- incompetence. go away with that. on theve your mettle playing field, not by dressing up ready to play. charlie: does it make a difference in a young black female engineer who arrives at rochester today to say i could be c.e.o. of this company? >> massive. charlie, i tell you what, i became c.e.o. and i was stunned by the fact. people say, how could you be stunned? but it was the story it was. really? i work in this company. i have worked in this company forever. inside, i was just a person who

came to work every day. inside, it was. in my family, i was ursula, a xerox employee. it was really interesting. even to this day, where i walk into places, it took me a while to mature to this. where i walk into places and they want to talk to me or they want me to talk to them. they are women, african americans, minorities, whatever. really? am, this started earlier than now, now i understand more what is happening here. i am just them and their potential. they are trying to talk to me as if they are talking to themselves, right? and their potential. i was in the subway the other day. a woman came up to me. i take the subway often. a woman set i know who you are.

i, but ise is, so do don't know who you are. we start a conversation. she said i'm going back to school. you are such an icon, such a motivator for me. i listened to her. i was with my daughter. my daughter complemented me on being so nice. sometimes i get a little frustrated. that said to her, i needed and she needed that. she was not talking to ursula burns. she was talking to herself. she was trying to say to herself that it is possible. maybe not being the c.e.o. of xerox, but being farther than anybody thought you could be in being farther than you thought you could be is absolutely possible with effort. i tell them all the time, i'm in the subway, this is all good stuff. morenk i have become comfortable and accepting and

honored and responsible. charlie: do you have a plan for the rest of your life? in other words, your country needs you. you have all this experience as a manager, a motivator, a planner, an planner, as an engineer, as a figure of respect, as a leader. ursula: thank you for all of that. charlie: it is true. how do you use that? where does that go? so we don't just praise you. ursula: one thing i can assure you of is i will not not use it. i will use it. it will be used. exactly what is where -- some things i know. i am on the board of exxon mobil. i love it. it is a really important

company. i am on the board of excellent -- american express. really important company. we will figure out this triangle. another set of things we need, food and water. i am on the board of the ford foundation. the ford foundation is the place that i go and deal with solving these problems. there is no way to solve this problem, there is no way, but you literally set -- sit in the ford foundation and talk about inequality, good things. that will take about 30% of my time. this is the problem, because when you run a company, you run the cycles that are just insane. so you get home, that is 30%. and i will have the other two thirds, 70%, and it will not be -- the things i know it will not be his running after money like money is pretty good, but i have enough. i have done well.

it is not running after money. and i almost am sure in the next 10 years it will not be politics. i don't want to go actively. i don't want to run for anything. i was the head of the president were council of -- president's war council, and it was a bipartisan, public-private kind of thing. we are looking now, and the offers are many. you can't choose poorly. charlie: you could take a painting. ursula: i am learning spanish. thank you. ♪ ♪

charlie: gary clark junior is here, the grammy award-winning blues guitarist has been just -- dubbed the chosen one. he has been with buddy guy, eric clapton who calls him inspiring. he goes on to say gary loves what i would like to do on stage without any effort at all. his new album was recorded earlier this month. it is called live north america 2016. here is gary clark jr. performing the healing right in our studio. ♪ >> ♪ i got something in motion something you can't see it requires devotion

from those who truly believe this is something you can't touch this is something you feel, yeah for some people, it is too much for some people it heals. this music is my healing this music is my healing god knows i needed some healing, yeah when this world upsets this music sets me free, yeah

i know, i know we stand in formation while the test and they see they come piling in formation they try to make us believe, yeah that there is something we can't touch whoa something will never be yeah, yeah when i feel like it's too much

the music always appears this is our healing this music is our healing god knows we need some healing yeah when this world upsets this music sets me free god only knows who will save us who will save us now, yeah they sit back and watch while it turns to stone yeah, we got this music healing us we got this music, yeah

we got this music, yeah can't take it away no, no, no no, no ♪ charlie: i am pleased to have gary clark junior at this table for the first time. gary: pleasure to be here.

charlie: the idea of the chosen -- where did that come from? gary: i am not quite sure. i think it first popped up in the rolling stones or something like that. i saw it. charlie: they also call you a musical ambassador. you are an ambassador for the blues for sure. gary: that is something i am starting to embrace a little bit more as i become older and understand really what i think my music is. i try and do a lot of things, but i have definitely been in spots and positions and then looked upon or called upon by other artists to kind of carry-on a tradition in blues

music and music rooted in blues. it has been a little bit overwhelming, and sometimes i try not to pay too much attention to it, not to get myself wrapped up in too much pressure. i put enough pressure on myself. i want to be great. i want to be considered a great musician, but i want to work on myself and my strengths and my weaknesses. without hearing everything. charlie: but what was it about the blues? gary: you know, i got hooked on blues by a friend of mine named evelyn. i have known her since i was eight years old. she had a black fender stratocaster, she lived down the street from me, and i could hear

playing. it was her and two other girls in her band and a bass player. so i used to be just drawn to the music. i would go over there and get a guitar up. she wanted to go to a blues jam for her 15th birthday. she signed us up, we ended up going up there, and just never looked back. the older musicians on the scene were really welcoming and embraced us, and were really willing to share their knowledge of the blues because, you know, it is considered a music that is being forgotten in pop culture. so i they were excited when the teenagers came up. charlie: so much rich history right here in america. gary: exactly. exactly. once i started to really dive in, i became familiar with --

being from austin, texas -- stevie ray von, then going back to the history of where did those guys grew up listening to t-bone walker, lightning hopkins, you know -- charlie: didn't you turned on a scholarship at the university of texas in order to go on the road with jimmy vaughn? gary: yes, i was offered a scholarship to the ut for music, and i debated it. i had long talks with my parents and grandparents, telling me i ought to -- charlie: go to college. gary: yeah, of course. i just felt for me i knew i wanted to be a musician and be involved in it somehow, but i kind of wanted to find out a way for better or worse -- i don't like taking instruction very well. i am a terrible student.

i kind of feel like my gut feeling is i know where to go, i am confident. charlie: but how did you know you wanted to be a musician? gary: i saw michael jackson on stage, i was five years old in denver. my parents took me to the show, it was a complete surprise. i just fell in love with the energy. charlie: and the dance and the music. gary: we had music growing up in the house, and i was always a kid right next to the speaker. ♪ >> ♪ don't stop baby all night long don't stop to the break of dawn keep coming home ♪

charlie: it wasn't easy for you. you had to struggle like everybody else. gary: i made a choice. i did not do the school thing, you know, i moved out of my parents' house. i did not have much. i knew i was going to survive as a musician. i played 4, 5, 6 nights a week. four hours a night, playing for tips in smokey blues bars knowing that i wanted to be alongside people that i have am fortunate enough to be alongside of. charlie: and knowing that you are getting better and all of that. gary: yeah, i wanted that experience from all the stories and legends of blue skies, you got to have your 10,000 hours. you got to really put in your time of work and figure out what it means to be on stage and come alive and be a part of the unit. everybody can play guitar solos all day long, but you are a part of something.

you have got to understand how it works. you have got to build confidence. you have to understand what works, what doesn't, and become more comfortable. if i had not put in those hours, some of these gigs and these opportunities that came up, i do not know if i would be able to owned this and feel comfortable, but i feel like i worked for this. i think it was really important, it was a struggle, but you know, i got the lights shut off. charlie: your partner would come in and say -- no more water, no more lights. gary: in the middle of recording something. charlie: my impression is you are more of a live guy than a studio musician. gary: yeah. charlie: the title of this is gary clark junior lives, north america 2016. gary: live in person. some of my favorite records, james brown, marvin gaye, eliza

london, stevie ray von -- charlie: you can feel the audience as much as the performance. gary: i feel like that is really the place for me on stage. i feel comfortable. charlie: but touring is where the music is too. gary: touring it is it. charlie: that is true. it has come to that. gary: yeah. it is an interesting, progressive business. and that is part of why i am so dependent on playing a lot, why i have been so focused on that. you never know. i feel like people will always want to come and see and hear live music. charlie: i am sure they do. how many gigs to do a year?

gary: you know, that is a good question. i think maybe we are doing around -- not so much this year. i was getting to a point where i was, you know, i could not remember what day it was or where i was. i wanted to go home for a second at least. charlie: it is terrible when you say hello, sacramento, and you are in fact in san francisco. gary: there are times i have not said anything because i was not sure. charlie: even the best have done that. i have heard some, names i will not mention. good night, great to be your and your lovely city. -- here in your lovely city. tell me about the album. gary: "healing" was a song that -- i was sitting in the studio, kind of a little bit stuck about what i wanted to write about. and then it just kind of

clicked. everything that i was listening to and that i recorded previously i said, well, it really was a weight off of me to be able to express myself musically, and i was just thinking back to when i was a kid and used to run around, whatever i could have gotten into, i feel like music put me in the right direction. and also, an artist like curtis mayfield, even artists like tupac, hearing stories, it is like, i grew up a religious person but i have realized that music has been more of a guide to me than anything else in my life.

charlie: music has been your religion in part? gary: yeah, bring me up and make me think and self reflect. charlie: are you happiest when you are on stage performing? gary: i am happiest, yeah, on stage performing, i am just happy when there is music lighting, music somewhere. charlie: touches all around. gary: if i am not playing, i love to go out and on the town, on the road, check out live bands. charlie: jesse what is happening. gary: i need that in my life. >> ♪ my baby's gone won't be back no more heard my baby's gone won't be back no more

she left me soon this morning like she did the night before ♪ charlie: where do you live? gary: i live down in texas outside of austin. charlie: outside of austin? gary: yes, sir. charlie: it is a great place. gary: it is a great place. i lived in new york for a couple of years, i started getting cold. it scared me away. charlie: like today. it is windy. gary: out in california a little bit, but austin, i love to be at home. i love my family. charlie: where do you think you are going? what is the journey leading to? is it just to get better? is it explore new experiences? is it to open people's ears to a

variety of music? or all of the above? gary: all of it. you express that better than i could. charlie: maybe i should be writing songs. gary: there you go. charlie: it was certain to be better to write than saying, i can tell you that. gary: how about we collaborate? charlie: all right, you sing. what is the hat about? gary: my dad bought me this had a long time ago. i loved seeing michael jackson wearing a hat. i remember him singing "who is loving you" with the jackson five, that purple hat, i thought it was the cool thing. from that to stevie ray von to hendrix to albert king, john lee poker, it is just a thing.

i never put it on. i had one, my dad bought me one, i didn't feel it was right. i put it on one day, and it took me a while. i did not feel comfortable. and then i just stepped out and got a couple of compliments and people said, it is a good look on you. charlie: then it did not feel comfortable not to have it. gary: so i sleep in mind. charlie: no you don't. let me remind everybody, gary clark junior, live north america 2016. >> ♪ so along with the bible taking shots waiting on tomorrow once hollow you're going -- you're going to

know my name why do you know my name my life is a city going to my head my life and the city going to my head my life and the city going to my head i don't care, no that you don't care ♪

get lost in the city tried to find myself had enough of a different person can't found someone else i know this ain't right cause it's all in my head bright lights in the city going to my head bright lights in the city going

to my head bright lights in the city, they going to my head i don't care, no, that you don't care, no ♪ you're gonna know my name we'll, you're gonna know my name, yeah

well you're gonna know my name, yeah yeah ♪ ♪

, welcome to the best of bloomberg markets. the major stories deriving headlines from the region. political tension dominated the news as president trump said what he calls an armada to waters of the korean peninsula and secretary of state warns russia relations are at a dangerous low. the balance between u.s. stockpiles and the opec led cut continue to swing with reports the saudi's may back an extension of the curve. the low-down of the gulf latest bond sales, i would be fun -- abu