♪ announcer: from our studios in new york city, this is "charlie rose." charlie: ursula burns is here. she is the chairman and former ceo of xerox. she spent her entire career starting as an intern in 1980. that was 37 years ago. she was raised by a single mother in manhattan. she went on to earn a degree at columbia university. in 2009, she became the first african-american woman to lead a fortune 500 company. i am pleased to have her at this table. unbelievable. for the first time, welcome. >> thank you, i am unbelievably

honored. charlie: is it hard to no longer be the ceo? ursula: not at all. charlie: you have led this company, you have set it on the present course. ursula: not at all. there is time for everything, time for everything. this was perfect timing for me. 37 years in the company. i know it inside and out. i know the plumbing, the tooling, the people. i know large number of the customers and markets, competitors, etc. after a while, you run things in your mind more in actuality. but i believe that once you go from two or three times, it is a good idea to get someone who has never been for before. that's all it is.

i still love the place. i'm still involved, but it was perfect timing. charlie: the late bark giamatti, who was president of the national league -- ursula: don't go there. charlie: growing up in the lower east side of manhattan, you weren't a red sox fan. damn yankees. there is this. he said after eight or 10 years, and that is a short time, you sort of are beginning to repeat yourself. ursula: and i actually believe it and see it not only in my career but on board, and it is not that you can't keep going and do well. you are not going to drive the bus off the road or into a ditch. the question becomes at that point, can you differentiate and review organization.

-- differentially improve the organization. can you do it? there is a point where it is hard to change, so i think that when you get to that point, it is a really good idea, particularly if you have good candidates inside and say here it is. charlie: thinking your success is difficult to do. ursula: it is one of the most important things. there are three constituents you have to worry about and things that you have to worry about you become ceo for many years. you have to have a great board and a strategy and the whole process thinking about change, value, creation. that whole piece. the third is, who is going to run the place? the idea of the words run the place are somewhat offensive because you are not really running the place.

there is a guy doing something that you have no clue about. he is keeping the power plant going, etc.. it is tone and tenor, risk, personality. i call it the soul of the company. after a while, it is probably a good idea that soul changes. charlie: even if you are the founder, to give it up? ursula: especially. charlie: especially if you are the founder? ursula: i call it the myth of the man. founders generally have a longer run and probably could have a longer run, but particularly for longevity and assurance of the ability to morph and change, for founders it is important to eventually, even if you just become the chair, you have got to see this great institution that you created run under many

different circumstances, not by only your eye. for founders, that is important. charlie: is it wise for the ceo to be chairman of the board? ursula: i think it is more than wise, i think it is preferred from my perspective. it doesn't mean you don't have a leading independent director. in my company we have it structured that way. and interestingly on all of the boards i serve on, it is structured that way. the chairman, ceo, and then the leading director. the pace of what needs to be discussed, thought about, debated requires a level of proximity and day-to-day interaction many chairs, whether people envision the chair, just can't do. it is kind of a duality that is a little confusing. leading independent directors are as powerful, or as important, but narrow to their

space of governments and governance, not operation. that is an important thing. charlie: you want a vigorous board, and you want a board that is independent too. i don't think you want a board -- i am basing this on what people tell me now, not because i have no experience -- you don't want a board to depend on income from the board. ursula: i don't know anyone -- most of the boards, members that i know -- by the way, we just went through a separation to xerox into two countries, -- two great companies fortune 500, great leaders. we had to literally find of new board, a brand-new board for the second company. the board of xerox combined, i think if you did the hourly wages, they made below minimum wage for the amount of work that they had to do. charlie: so what happens in the great corporation is your

colleagues who are part of the operational side, you get a sense of what works and doesn't work, where you are missing opportunities. then you set the vision strategy, and the people who help you hammer it out and figure it out, who bring the multiplicity of experiences, is a board. ursula: is a board. the board can control anything -- they don't always bring it. they usher it is box. -- they assure it is ought. --bought. they are smart enough to know the question should be asked, and options should be presented. so they don't have to be knowledgeable about doing business in india per se. they have to know india is an important market, and you can tell from some of their personal experiences, then there is a set of structures and questions and resources to bear on that

strategic question. they don't have to walk in with the knowledge in their back pocket. boards have to know their job -- i have a board member i will not say the name, but he said to me, i loved it, please forget 90% of what the board says. forget. remember to forget 90%. charlie: why would he say that? ursula: which 10% you keep? the board meets may be seven times here. they come for 10, maybe if you are lucky 12, hours. and they have a life, meaning they work in some kind of industry or not-for-profit. they work somewhere else. they have other interests and things. i spend all day in my managing and just about all night on these topics.

as people, come in and say, the water should be two degrees hotter. when you hear that, say, thank you, but we will not heed your temperature suggestion. if they say watch, the venezuelan market is -- i have that i amt and dealing with in the venezuelan market -- make sure you talk about the assets. that is when you say, got it. a lot of things get discussed, everything from like i said, what temperature is the water versus whether we should go into a market or invest capital in certain ways. you have to be able to sort through all of this, then do that with times eight or nine people. charlie: here you are, the former ceo hanging around. ursula: not for long. charlie: how long will you be gone? ursula: annual meeting of 2017. i am out of there. i am chairman of the board.

by the way, i have on unbelievable set of examples for me on how to do this, and i am not -- i am a go forward person, not necessarily the best planner in the world, but a go forward person, and i don't like hanging on. the great example is when i was made ceo -- the person who stayed before me was honest chairman. she said you will see me for a while, the first couple weeks, months, then you will see me a little less, then i'm out of here. her point was, and she told me once as well, ursula, you have to make sure you are ursula. don't be anne. so they don't need ursula now they need jess. and so their boards and management teams, many of whom i spoke with were connected to,

the chance to take the company to the next level, that is what is about. i don't have, i have never been one that solely identified with my work. it does consume the vast majority of my time. and therefore you worry about when is not going to consume the vast majority of your time, but my interest has never been narrowed to how do i make xerox a better country? that was one of the more important i did. i have a family interested in, other causes, other interests. i read, there is -- charlie: what has your attention now? ursula: the country. charlie: do you have more time? ursula: i have more time. i don't think the intent for me will change very much. charlie: you are a good citizen.

ursula: i was a good citizen. i was demonstrating, no matter where i was, during the democratic administration, running a manufacturing plant during a republican administration. it does not matter who is running, but there are certain things i do know about what enables business to be better, what enables business across-the-board to be better, how governments can help, and how it can hinder, and we have a situation and a set of circumstances in this country fortunately that the government engages his nose. -- engages business. they don't always listen, but we can have an audience. so when you do research and have an audience, i willing to talk. -- am willing to talk. let's talk about what, what your proclamations or potential proclamations can do, and we will do business. that is part of the responsibility of business. charlie: what was the biggest decision you made?

ursula: two big decisions, combining it, then splitting it. i think they both were appropriately made. charlie: for the market? ursula: for sure. the end was a great brand with all of the software of the brand. i don't mean technical software. well foundation and all the right ways. i mean the universal software, unbelievably well foundations. great innovation, great customer center city, amazing -- centricity, amazing employee base that could deal with complex problems. just a history that was amazing around innovation. that brand of company and business was one that had run to the end of its natural ability, as far as it could run without doing a big morph. doing a big

-- because technology was changing. everything was changing so quickly that one of the choices we had was, do you just inch it along a little bit and let the stuff that made you great while you are trying to find your way in the dark go, or do you take something back and try to extend yourself into a new set of markets with the same foundational elements? charlie: and you chose? ursula: we chose to do that, the literally leaning forward. great thing about that was that at the end of the day, the journey was hard. really hard. at the end of the day, and is showing up in the short-term and it will show up in the long-term market as well, we invested in a company called acs, made it a and made a part of xerox. we rejiggered acs. we saw the level of foundation, business, etc. we are at a point now where that company is strong enough and has

a different enough rhythm that is keeping up with the old company, what we called xerox was distracting. so part of the choice we have to make as a board and the of the ceo and management team was, do you, do you pick apart what you just put together? do you take it apart? the answer was really simple. the questions were the following. the board did every step of diligence you can remember. external, internal, bankers, lawyers, everybody, and for the markets, for our customers, for our shareholders, it is definitely the best outcome, particularly if we can do it well. so a year ago about this time, january, we were told we can do

this, but i don't think you can get it done in a year. there is no way. there is just so much breakage when you separate. i call it like a friendly divorce. i don't have a lot of experience, but even a friendly divorce is kind of messy. we went through a really friendly divorce. a lot of acrimony inside, but every decision made with the right foundation. that is, will it be good for the shareholders? charlie: and then you bring it back together? ursula: when you bring it back -- we are now in the poll apart phase. we will never bring it back together. i think we have done it well. i am going to eliminate the

word think. we have done it well. charlie: it is fascinating. no one ended up like viacom. ursula: and there will be all kinds of, my goodness, we did not know some small thing here or there, but you will find that from this point forward, you will see two companies that could not operate as well as they are operating if they were together. ♪

charlie: do you think people know what xerox is? ursula: absolutely. i don't believe people know what it could be. i think that they think it is a company and the copy machine. we don't do a lot of -- nobody makes copiers anymore. but generally what xerox is or simply what it is is it takes many different forms of communications. the way that we generally still handle it, you handle it, i do, is on paper, but that is not the predominant way anymore, the way that is still the most easy to describe and easy to understand and manage. it is xerox's job is to take all of these forms of communication that come into a customer and to organize that, and to help them manage that in a secure and safe way.

it does not create the bits and the bites. it doesn't even really do a lot of manipulation or management in the eyes of the customer, but it takes a lot of pain that you have in all these different medias and makes it significantly less painful and helps you manage your documents. when it was together, also something like easy desk, so when you are driving, you don't want to stop to get your document out, give it to the guy, he gives you coins -- is there a way to do it automated to manage this business across everything from order -- i want to go through to collection, i have to pay for it. can you do that seamless without without you thinking about it and the government structure? we did that for both sides. so we do that.

we bought them together. charlie: the confidence you that you left this company and -- in in great shape, and a great place, and you did what you came to do. ursula: i am. i am very confident. charlie: here is somebody that is an internet ends up as ceo and chairman of the board -- and intern and ends up a ceo and chairman of the board. ursula: i did not even know what a chairman of the board was. i joined the company in 1980. when i joined the company, i had just entered my final year of undergraduate school. and i just wanted a job to be an engineer. my thing was and still is my management style. i have a technical person. you give me a problem i am going to try to wrap some mathematical solution around it and develop a

process to implement the solution. that is what i do. that is what i did for a long time. that is what it was then, and when things got tough, that is what you will back to. that is what i go back to at least. when i joined the company and for the first probably eight to 10 years, it recalled -- and we did not have google. if you wanted an annual report, you had to go to the library and get it, some who knew who was running the place? it just became, now days, my daughter, my son, we were arguing about something that could take a nanosecond to find out who the head of the company is, the management team is, how long they have been there, what they make, everything. that is not how i grew up. i entered xerox and my goal was to be a great engineer, thinking that i would leave within four or five years, because it was in upstate new york, and i am a new yorker. i did not know how far rochester was. i was not good at geography. i thought i would come back to someplace closer to the city and

be an engineer. i got there, and i was lucky. luck is an amazing blessing. i was lucky i picked it is great -- picked this great company or they picked me, one that allowed me to even in upstate new york feel like a new yorker, feel like i could be how i looked, how i wanted. things that i thought were core me being ursula burns they did not flush out. they gave me lots and lots of chances to do all kinds of things, insane. we are doing a product in japan. here i am from the lower east side of manhattan, and the was laura.had been the farthest i have been on a plane was washington, d.c., little planes. and they said, we have this big product development thing in japan.

you have to go there and spend a couple of weeks. you mean that other place over there in asia? charlie: way beyond hawaii. ursula: way beyond. i ended up in a great place, and they curated -- i hate to use the word, but they to read -- they curated experiences for me that were just beyond my reach, but if i jumped really high, i could grab it. i was able to just continue to grow in this environment. it was perfect. charlie cole was raised an issue? ursula: race and gender were an issue. gender and age for me in the beginning were a better -- bigger issue than race because i was kind of told to the race issue. -- dulled to the race issue. i had told with it so many times, but i was actually surprised with the age. you are too young to be able to do this. really, you are going to run the xyz? what experience do you have? and then gender was a big deal

as well because i was in the engineering environment, and i went to manufacturing really early. and that back then was totally and completely male. that was it. i was young,e, and and i was black, which i think that they were kind of like, oh my god, another one of those guys, then they saw i was a woman and they were like, really? i have to go through all of this? but we have a saying at xerox and it is check it at the door. everything that doesn't allow you to bring value into the company, leave it at the door. i can't make you a person that understands or wants to have diversity in your life or inclusion. i will try, but i will not be the one -- your parents did

that. but i want you when you walk in the door, we have a set of rules you play by. we are inclusive. we actually try to look for the value that individuals give. we do believe in different parts but better. so what we don't like is incompetency. it will go away with that. you basically prove your mettle on the playing field, not by being dressed up ready to play. charlie: didn't make difference that a young, black, female engineer could arrive at xerox today and say i could be ceo? ursula: massive. i tell you what, i became ceo, and i was stunned by the fact -- and people say how could you be stunned? this was the biggest story -- i was like, really? i work -- i have worked in this company for forever, so inside,

i was just a person who can do work. inside and in my family, i was just ursula burns. and it was really interesting, and even to this day, where i walk into places, and it took me a while to mature to this, when i walk into places and they want to talk to me. or they want me to talk to them. they are women, african-americans, minorities, even white men. and i always say, really, really? and you said it earlier than just now, i understand a little bit more what is happening here. i am just them and their potential, and they are trying to talk to me as if they are talking to themselves. they are potentially saying, -- i was in the subway the other day, and the woman came up to me, and i do take the subway often, as she said, i know who you are.

my response was, i know who i am as well, but i don't know who you are. and we started a conversation and she said i'm going back to school. you are such an icon, you are such a motivator for me, and i listened to her. my daughter complement to me on being so nice. i said to her, i needed that, and she needed that. she wasn't talking to ursula burns, she was talking to herself. she was trying to say to herself that it is possible. maybe not being the ceo of xerox, but being farther than anyone thought you could be, and being further than you thought you could be as possible with effort. i tell them all the time, i'm in the subway. this is all good stuff.

so i have become more comfortable and accepting and honored and responsible charlie: do you have a plan for the rest of your life? in other words, that your country needs you? you have all this experience as a manager, as a motivator, as a planner, as an engineer, as a figure of respect, as a leader. ursula: thank you for all of that. charlie: it is true. how do you use that? where does that go? so we don't just praise you. ursula: one thing i can assure you of is i will not not use it. i will use it. it will be used. exactly what is where -- some things i know. i am on the board of exxon mobil. i love it. it is a really important company. i am on the board of american express. really important company. energy, congress.

i'm going to get another board and we will figure out this triangle. another set of things we need, food and water. i am on the board of the ford foundation. the ford foundation is the place that i go and deal with solving these problems. there is no way to solve this problem, there is no way, but literally sit in the ford foundation and talk about ways to solve the problem of inequality, good things. that will take about 30% of my time. this is the problem, because when you run a company, you run the cycles that are just insane. so you get home, that is 30%. the other 2/3, 70%, and it will not be -- the things i know it will not be his running after money like money is pretty good, but i have enough. i have done well. it is not running after money. and i almost am sure in the next

10 years it will not be politics. i don't want to go actively. i don't want to run for anything. i was the head of the president 's export council, which was really cool. and it was a bipartisan, public-private kind of thing. if i can do that kind of thing, i would be interested in it. we are looking now, and the offers are many. i just have to kind of not choose poorly. charlie: you could take up painting. ursula: i am learning spanish. thank you. ♪

♪ charlie: gary clark junior is here, the grammy award-winning blues guitarist has been dubbed the chosen one. he has been with buddy guy, eric clapton who calls him inspiring. he goes on to say gary loves -- does what i would like to do on stage without any effort at all. his new album was recorded earlier this month. it is called live north america 2016. here is gary clark jr. performing the healing right in our studio. ♪ >> ♪ i got something in motion

something you can't see it requires devotion from those who truly believe this is something you can't touch this is something you feel, yeah for some people, it is too much for some people it heals this music is my healing this music is my healing god knows i needed some healing, yeah

when this world upsets this music sets me free, yeah i know, i know we stand in formation while they test and they see they come piling in formation they try to make us believe, yeah that there is something we can't touch whoa something we'll never feel yeah, yeah when i feel like it's too much

the music always appears this is our healing this music is our healing god knows we need some healing yeah when this world upsets this music sets me free god only knows who will save us who will save us now, yeah they sit back and watch while it turns to stone yeah, we got this music healing

us we got this music, yeah we got this music, yeah can't take it away no, no, no no, no ♪ charlie: i am pleased to have gary clark junior at this table for the first time. welcome. gary: pleasure to be here.

charlie: the idea of the chosen -- where did that come from? gary: i am not quite sure. i think it first popped up in the rolling stones or something like that. i saw it. charlie: they also call you a musical ambassador. you are an ambassador for the blues for sure. gary: that is something i am starting to embrace a little bit more as i become older and understand really what i think my music is. i try and do a lot of things, but i have definitely been in spots and positions and then looked upon or called upon by other artists to kind of carry-on a tradition in blues music and music rooted in blues.

it has been a little bit overwhelming, and sometimes i try not to pay too much attention to it, not to get myself wrapped up in too much pressure. i put enough pressure on myself. i want to be great. i want to be considered a great musician, but i want to work on myself and my strengths and my weaknesses. without hearing everything. charlie: but what was it about the blues? gary: you know, i got hooked on blues by a friend of mine named evelyn. i have known her since i was eight years old. she had a black fender stratocaster, she lived down the street from me, and i could hear playing. it was her and two other girls

in her band and a bass player. so i used to be just drawn to the music. i would go over there and get a guitar up. she wanted to go to a blues jam for her 15th birthday. she signed us up, we ended up going up there, and just never looked back. the older musicians on the scene were really welcoming and embraced us, and were really willing to share their knowledge of the blues because, you know, it is considered a music that is being forgotten in pop culture. so i they were excited when the teenagers came up. charlie: so much rich history right here in america. gary: exactly. exactly. once i started to really dive in, i became familiar with -- being from austin, texas -- stevie ray von, then going back to the history of where did

those guys grew up listening to t-bone walker, lightning hopkins, you know -- charlie: didn't you turned on a scholarship at the university of texas in order to go on the road with jimmy vaughn? gary: yes, i was offered a scholarship to the ut for music, and i debated it. i had long talks with my parents and grandparents, telling me i ought to -- charlie: go to college. gary: yeah, of course. i just felt for me i knew i wanted to be a musician and be involved in it somehow, but i kind of wanted to find out a way for better or worse -- i don't like taking instruction very well. i am a terrible student.

i kind of feel like my gut feeling is i know where to go, i am confident. charlie: but how did you know you wanted to be a musician? gary: i saw michael jackson on stage, i was five years old in denver. my parents took me to the show, it was a complete surprise. i just fell in love with the energy. charlie: and the dance and the music. gary: we had music growing up in the house, and i was always a kid right next to the speaker. ♪ >> ♪ don't stop baby all night long don't stop to the break of dawn keep coming home ♪ charlie: it wasn't easy for you. you had to struggle like everybody else.

gary: i made a choice. i did not do the school thing, you know, i moved out of my parents' house. i did not have much. i knew i was going to survive as a musician. i played 4, 5, 6 nights a week. four hours a night, playing for tips in smokey blues bars knowing that i wanted to be alongside people that i have am fortunate enough to be alongside of. charlie: and knowing that you are getting better and all of that. gary: yeah, i wanted that experience from all the stories and legends of blue skies, you got to have your 10,000 hours. you got to really put in your time of work and figure out what it means to be on stage and come alive and be a part of the unit. everybody can play guitar solos all day long, but you are a part of something.

you have got to understand how it works. you have got to build confidence. you have to understand what works, what doesn't, and become more comfortable. if i had not put in those hours, some of these gigs and these opportunities that came up, i do not know if i would be able to owned this and feel comfortable, but i feel like i worked for this. i think it was really important, it was a struggle, but you know, i got the lights shut off. charlie: your partner would come in and say -- no more water, no more lights. gary: in the middle of recording something. charlie: my impression is you are more of a live guy than a studio musician. gary: yeah. charlie: the title of this is gary clark junior lives, north america 2016. gary: live in person. some of my favorite records,

james brown, marvin gaye, eliza london, stevie ray von -- charlie: you can feel the audience as much as the performance. gary: i feel like that is really the place for me on stage. i feel comfortable. charlie: but touring is where the music is too. gary: touring it is it. charlie: that is true. it has come to that. gary: yeah. it is an interesting, record business. and that is part of why i am so dependent on playing a lot, why i have been so focused on that. you never know. i feel like people will always

want to come and see and hear live music. charlie: i am sure they do. how many gigs to do a year? gary: you know, that is a good question. i think maybe we are doing around -- not so much this year. i was getting to a point where i was, you know, i could not remember what day it was or where i was. i wanted to go home for a second at least. charlie: it is terrible when you say hello, sacramento, and you are in fact in san francisco. gary: there are times i have not said anything because i was not sure. charlie: even the best have done that. i have heard some, names i will not mention. good night, great to be your and -- here in your lovely city. tell me about the album. gary: "healing" was a song that -- i was sitting in the studio, kind of a little bit stuck about what i wanted to write about.

and then it just kind of clicked. everything that i was listening to and that i recorded previously i said, well, it really was a weight off of me to be able to express myself musically, and i was just thinking back to when i was a kid and used to run around, whatever i could have gotten into, i feel like music put me in the right direction. and also, an artist like curtis mayfield, even artists like tupac, hearing stories, it is like, i grew up a religious person but i have realized that music has been more of a guide to me than anything else in my life. charlie: music has been your religion in part? gary: yeah, bring me up and make me think and self reflect.

charlie: are you happiest when you are on stage performing? gary: i am happiest, yeah, on stage performing, i am just happy when there is music lighting, music somewhere. charlie: touches all around. gary: if i am not playing, i love to go out and on the town, on the road, check out live bands. charlie: just to see what is happening. gary: i need that in my life. >> ♪ my baby's gone won't be back no more heard my baby's gone won't be back no more

she left me soon this morning like she did the night before ♪ charlie: where do you live? gary: i live down in texas outside of austin. charlie: outside of austin? gary: yes, sir. charlie: it is a great place. gary: it is a great place. i lived in new york for a couple of years, i started getting cold. it scared me away. charlie: like today. it is windy. gary: out in california a little bit, but austin, i love to be at home. i love my family. charlie: where do you think you are going? what is the journey leading to? is it just to get better? is it explore new experiences? is it to open people's ears to a variety of music?

or all of the above? gary: all of it. you express that better than i could. charlie: maybe i should be writing songs. gary: there you go. charlie: it was certain to be better to write than saying, i -- sing i can tell you that. gary: how about we collaborate? charlie: all right, you sing. what is the hat about? gary: my dad bought me this had a long time ago. i loved seeing michael jackson wearing a hat. i remember him singing "who is loving you" with the jackson five, that purple hat, i thought it was the cool thing. from that to stevie ray von to hendrix to albert king, john lee poker, it is just a thing. i never put it on.

i had one, my dad bought me one, i didn't feel it was right. i put it on one day, and it took me a while. i did not feel comfortable. and then i just stepped out and got a couple of compliments and people said, it is a good look on you. charlie: then it did not feel comfortable not to have it. gary: so i sleep in mine. charlie: no you don't. let me remind everybody, gary clark junior, live north america 2016. >> ♪ started off the bible ended up taking shots waiting on tomorrow

once hollow you're going to know my name well, you're going to know my name my life is a city going to my head bright lights, big city going to , my head bright lights, big city, going to my head i don't care, no kos -- because you don't care

get lost in the city tried to find myself up a different person came down somebody else i know this ain't right

cause it's all in my head i'm surprised i'm still alive brightd have been dead lights, big city, going to my head bright lights, big city, going to my head i don't care, no, that you don't care, no you're gonna know my name

we'll, you're gonna know my name, yeah well you're gonna know my name, yeah yeah ♪ ♪

jonathan: from new york city to our viewers worldwide, i am jonathan ferro. 30 minutes dedicated to fixed income, this is "bloomberg real yield." ♪ jonathan: coming up, a left-wing candidate you've probably never heard of spooks investors one week away from the french election. the president has a message for the bond bears. he likes low rates. treasuries rallied for a fifth straight week. yields drop to 2017 lows. the fixed income trading revival continues to drive earnings on wall street but muted loan growth raises concerns about the economy. we start with a big issue, why the left-wing candidate in france is spooking the bond market. >> mr. melenchon.