♪ announcer: from our studios in new york city, this is "charlie rose." nicole is here. he is one of this country's best-known historians. he has won two pulitzer prizes and a presidential medal of freedom. his new book is a collection of speeches. it is called "the american spirit: who we are and what we stand for."i am pleased to have david back at the table. welcome. see you. to before we talk about the book, you have been outspoken about president trump. david: i have. along with great many other

historians. that was last summer. charlie: i think you and ken burns formed a group. david: we were all pretty much saying the same thing. it was concern for the country. andern about values truth,r, belief in the belief intolerance, belief in kindness and empathy. charlie: all things you think should be presidential qualities. david: yes, i do. and i think that a certain confidence is essential, and that you don't base your attacks on your smearnts using fear and

and unkind actions and words. disturbed allhat of us who did that, made that a sense ofthat history, and understanding of history, is essential in leadership of all kinds. and our most effective and most also notious, but always the most talented or eloquent, has been students of history. and those who had not been university presidents. harry truman, the one that you know well. david: he never went to college, but he never stopped reading history. he said the only new thing in the world is the history you don't know. and now, with our 45th president, we have a leader who

doesn't know much of anything in the way of history, and who has said so. charlie: he says that he doesn't read biographies. david: he dismisses biographies, books, reading, and history. but my feelings about the importance of history, as you say, go back several decades. that is what this book is a collection of. encourage,must stimulate, and bring history to the importance in the system of education. charlie: i asked for four key qualities to measure a leader by. character, ability, responsibility, and experience. and dwight eisenhower wrote one of the very best books ever written about the second world war. let's talk about that.

i don't have any reason to contradict that, but i'm surprised. david: and he wrote every word. charlie: is it better than what winston churchill wrote? david: it is from the military point of view. you can't compare anybody to churchill. charlie: but you said it's one of the best books ever written about world war ii. david: it is superb. he wrote it. i only knew this because i knew his editor. he wrote every word of that book. kennedy, of course, was a great student of history. on the mantelpiece in the state dining room in the white house, there is a quotation that was first carved into the mantelpiece by franklin roosevelt from a letter that john adams wrote to his wife, johnil, the first night adams stayed in the white house. he was the first president to stand -- spend the night there.

roosevelt thought it was so important to be there forever. when the white house had to be billed during -- built during truman's presidency. , truman made sure went back on the mantelpiece. when kennedy was president, he had it carved into the marble part, rather than the wood. what adams wrote to abigail was, "may none but honest and wise men ever rule under this roof." what i love about it is he puts honest first. character,ength of that is what matters in the job. strength of character and confidence that the american enduring, and the american spirit -- charlie: which is the title of the book. david: yes. i have spent a lot of time with john adams and harry truman, and

feel,re roosevelt, and i often, that lots of other biographers, historians, have expressed the same thought. you get to know these people in many ways better than you know people in real life. you read their letters. [laughter] david: exactly. and the letters are so revealing, and they are so often touching and eloquent, and the relationship between bess and harry truman as found in the letters, the relationship between abigail and john adams is found in those letters. there are over 1000 letters between abigail adams and john adams. neither of them was capable of writing a boarding letter -- boring letter or a short one. you are reminded that history is

human. history is not about memorizing dates and statistics and quotations. it is about human beings. that's why it is so important. , any nation that expects to be ignorant and free expects what never was and never can be. he said, "when in the course of operativets," and the word is human. none of these people who occupy the highest office has ever been perfect. charlie: remind me, jefferson didn't write books. did he write letters? david: yes, indeed. charlie: lots of letters. as many as adams? david: no. the main thing with jefferson's he destroyed every letter he ever wrote to his wife or that she wrote to him.

he would write to friends of theirs and say, if you have any correspondence from my wife, please return it to me, because i would like to have it, and then he destroyed it. charlie: why? david: nobody really knows. david:charlie: what do you think? david: i think he felt his private life must remain private. charlie: why didn't you write about jefferson and washington? david: i like to read about people who i feel deserve more credit.n and i like to bring them front and center stage. i like to write about the wives of these people. i like to write about people you've never heard of. why should they remain in the shadows are in the wings? were?in the wings, as it i'm drawn to people who set out to accomplish something worthy, noble even, that they knew would be difficult, and which turned out to be even more difficult than anyone imagined, and they succeeded. written about

washington. charlie: i know, but not in the same way. right. greatest mann the of the founding fathers? david: yes. no question. charlie: in every way? david: if you are tabulating iq or ability -- charlie: i'm just thinking of the qualities that made the revolution. character, ability, responsibility, experience. david: yes, all of those. you should always remember he was the leader of the country for 16 years, not eight years, because he was the commander in chief through the war when we had no president. then he became president. he was at the helm. he was in charge for 16 years. he was setting examples of behavior of courage, perseverance. perseverance can a conflict all

caps of things. spirit and perseverance is what , and what i using the code for the beginning of the book. charlie: i know you have been asked this one million times. what about alexander hamilton? david: alexander hamilton is a subject that i ran into in writing about adams and jefferson, to a degree, and washington. he is very much in vogue right now, and i have not seen the show. charlie: why not? david: i guess because i've been too busy. yes, i have. i will probably see it someday. i'm not against it. -- iing that will get him have read the book, it's terrific. i think one of the book -- points he made more of is we are living in a time where there are absolutely wonderful historians

and biographers writing wonderful books. never in my lifetime have there been so many good writers, good historians working hard as hell to produce books. charlie: what is your judgment on hamilton? great man? one of the most brilliant men? david: yes, all of that. brilliant, great. numerous human flaws. charlie: mainly women or other than that? david: i don't think he had to go the way he went. charlie: meaning he should not have done the duel? yeah, he didn't have to do that. and i didn't like the way he treated adams. charlie: that's what it is. hamilton is an vogue right now. fine. we can never know of enough -- enough about the founding era.

not just because it's the revolutionary war, but because it is the american revolution, which is still going on. the political revolution. benjamin rush said it will keep going on forever we are still working on it. . that's our advantage. we are trying to constantly make life better, the system better. we have good people who are willing to give that every effort. imagine john kennedy saying, we .ill go to the moon, and we did kennedy almost never talked about himself. it's truly interesting. there's a lot to be learned from each of these people. , as i feel very strong tried to stress in this book, there's not just the presidency that matters, it's congress. we have had very great people in congress. congress has accomplished many

worthy achievements that we should never take for granted. charlie: you actually make that point well. that we sort of 10 to have congress in contempt, because even -- president obama said to me, i said, do you think america has the strongest military, best technology, strongest financial, best rule of law? what could go wrong? and he said to me, "our politics." inhave had gridlock washington with congress, as within the congress. one of the clearest lessons of history is that very little of consequences ever accomplished alone. it is a joint effort. as soon as congress recovers from this spasm of not working together to a cop -- accomplish .ssential objectives

you have to work across the aisle. you have to accept that the other individual can have a very different opinion without you attacking him or her in unfair and unkind ways. you can't do that. you are going to need that somebody on some other project or some other mission later on. what ted kennedy's blow -- it was a serious to that across the aisle camaraderie and working together in the congress. charlie: he worked with the bush administration on education. david: he was constantly working with the other party. and another wrote him a note, saying, "if they only knew." david: that's right.

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charlie: would you write -- you wrote about the brooklyn bridge. that was your first. david: i wrote a book about americans who went to paris. i don't think politics and the military should be seen as the whole of history. charlie: ok, that's my point. david: much of history is made up of is art, poetry, music that

will last the longest by far, and we have to include it. it's part of being human. charlie: what is the responsibility of government when it comes to culture and science, and supporting those very important sectors? david: it is very important the government support this. absolutely. humanities, the arts, science, absolutely. if anything, it should be more. i'm all for it. i have worked hard to keep those institutions going. i believe in them fervently. charlie: as something i know about you, which fits with the conversation, you think there's a great book to be written about gerald ford. because we don't really know, do we? david: no. truman said you have to wait 50

years for the dust to settle. it was very wise. these presidents look different after a while. -- of course, this is my own personal feeling. -- somemarvelous book marvelous books have been written about leading political figures within the 50 year .ineup if you are working in this field, there's always something new to discover. i have never embarked on a project where i did not find something nobody knew about. that's the wonder of it. that's the excitement. charlie: you always find somethingcharlie: new. david: always. and sometimes it can be big and exciting. that's why i think how we teach history is -- ought to be more in the spirit of the lab technique.

you don't just tell the student all about what happened, who did it, and why and what it costs, and so forth. you give them a project to work on where they are doing the digging and figuring out the story. i taught atat when universities, and it works. i gave you a photograph, the graduating class, tuskegee university of 1945 is up to you to write a paper on that photograph. you, young charlie rose you are going to be the leading expert in the country on the graduating class of tuskegee university of 1912. it happens. they did it. an american oil tanker off the coast of florida 1942,man submarines in terrific subject. they get into it and really care about it.

i had a fellow, i gave him a picture of sergeant york, the famous hero of world war i. i asked him -- he was very befuddled about it, because he's never heard of this man. i said, "how much do you know about world war i? " he said, "i know nothing about world war i. i know there has to be a world war i because there is a world war ii." he got to work and wrote a superb paper. -- into or 20 years ago that, i ran into him on the street. he said he was in my class at cornell, and he got sergeant york. i said that i remembered his paper, it was superb and could have been published. he said, "i want you to know that world war i has been my hobby ever since." charlie: one thing can stimulate

a lifelong curiosity. david: absolutely. i think it was you who said nothing ever happened the way it happened. charlie: nothing ever happened -- david: nothing ever had to have been the way it happened. so often it seems it was always on a track. it's never on a track. none of our predecessors ever knew how it was going to turn out any more than we do. no such thing as a self-made man or self-made woman. never was, never will be. charlie: because there's always circumstances and timing. david: and influence and helpdavid:. and your rival or enemy can be the spirit that makes you do what you do. the place,m all over but it is curious to me. john adams, did he have a lot of people who didn't really like him? wasn't because of his personality?

david: i suppose so. but he was very well-liked. irritablend him because he spoke the truth all the time. it could be painful for people. he was admirable in so many ways. he was the one who said washington should be in command. he's the one who said jefferson should write the declaration of independence. he's the only founding father who became president who never owned a slave as a matter of the next president to come along as a matter of principle who never owned a slave was his son, john quincy. abigail was adamant. we can never fully understand the influence of women from the beginning. there is a whole feel that needs more exploration. charlie: you have said that the best presidents were historians. woodrow wilson was a historian. was he one of the best? and president of princeton. david: was he a best president?

he's one of the top presidents, no question. was he perfect, by no means. charlie: but was he in the top 10? david: i never ranked presidents, but i would say he was, yeah. sammy washington was a great reader of history, and so was adams and jefferson, and a quite roosevelt began good naval history of the word of 1812 -- war of 1812 when he was a student. franklin roosevelt was also a great reader of history. eisenhower also, and kennedy. barack obama, great reader of history. charlie: barack obama recently, i fact, i said to him, happened to meet with him for a future project, i said, how has it been?

he said he is already written two chapters. it's amazing. ien i was out in tahiti, started writing immediately. he said it's not a history, is a memoir. david: and it will be an important book. charlie: because of his influence and the capacity of his words. david: absolutely. very talented writer. and a gentleman. charlie: interesting, that. bush 41. there are going to call the book "the last gentleman," but the publisher wanted something else. david: i have known several presidents, either interviewing or spend time with them. nothing like you, but the one that i know the best is bush senior. i knew him and met him well before he got into politics. he's a wonderful human being. charlie: that's what comes out. a dignity and integrity, and

patriotism. here's a man, who at 18 years yale, doesn'tat go to yell, he goes to enlist in the navy. in the navy.pilot then he is shot down, and forever lived with the fact that his people on the plane with him never were found. a tragedy. david: it's remarkable. charlie: president obama called the most underrated president of recent times. david: well, i don't know about that. underrated? is more david: i tell you, i don't like to pass judgment that recently. i think that those that serve the country before they became president, and particularly they went through that hard time, as did kennedy, as did harry truman, theodore roosevelt --

world war i, they really saw some of the toughest battlefield experience of the war. harry truman did. way, and hardened in a they also learned about leadership. charlie: the speeches that are here,nt, you've got -- in writing.t john adams just listen to this. this is so great. also a book of yours, about the "morning oners, roosevelt, which is and "the great bridge." i don't know how to ask this.

it is dedicated to your grandchildren, about 15 of them. bestspeech in here reflects your sense of the american spirit? is there one? i was invited to make a speech before the joint session of congress. that was a very high honor, because civilians are not often asked to do that. i think that is high up there. the speech i gave at athens, university is one that i put a lot of thought into. i will read you just one passage from that that i felt very much summed up my feelings.

this was a commencement speech. whenever i have been asked to deliver a commencement speech, i honorbound, to really make an effort to say something of consequence and work hard at preparing it. i like to leave them with some convictions of convictions of mine that i really feel strongly about. ridinghen bad news is high in despair impassioned, when loudmouths and corruption seem to own center stage, when some keep crying that the country is going to the docks, remember, it's always been going to the dogs in the eyes of some and that 90% or more of the people are good people -- generous hearted, law-abiding, good citizens who get to work on time, do a good job, love their

country, pay their taxes, care about their neighbors, care about their children's education, and believe, rightly, as you do, in the ideals upon hich our life is founded." and i said, "see the world. take up painting or pno. -- piano. go climb a mountain and whenever you check out of a hotel or motel, be sure you tip the made." charley: well said. david to a service for rockefeller, who was kind of an expert on collecting beetles. you mentioned insects. david: there was a wonderful exhibit that just blew me out of my chair, i liked it so much. charlie: do you consider yourself a man of massachusetts? david: i'm a man of pennsylvania, massachusetts,

connecticut. i live in massachusetts, but i grew up in pittsburgh. it had a great influence on me. it was a city of history. there was a lot of history talked about, and it was during the second world war when i was in grade school. we were very much involved in spirit and attitude in the reality of war. we in pittsburgh were helping to win the war. we were the arsenal of democracy and so forth and so on. the conversations at the dinner table were about so much that happened in pittsburgh -- fires and floods and strikes, things like that. the history of our own family. i think what your parents and grandparents talk about has one'sinfluence on interest in history. i think the best thing that parents can do for their , todren or grandchildren encourage an interest in

history, is to take them to historic sites. take them to washington. .ake them to williamsburg take them to the historic site within your own neck of the woods. take them to the famous battlefields. take them to the new american revolution that just opened in .hiladelphia absolutely phenomenal, and there's never been a great museum about the american revolution until now. charlie: two things before i close here -- where do you put the presidential medal of freedom among the honors that have come to david mccullough? david: you mean in one cap -- in what cabinet? charlie: you know what i mean. david: i consider it the highest honor i have received. if i have to tell you what means most to me, it is that none of my books have ever been out of print in 50 years.

charlie: people are still reading them. wow. great to have you. david: thank you, charlie. i consider it your best i consider it a privilege to be your guests. charlie: thank you. book is called "the american spirit: who we are and what we aand for" and it is collection of speeches. to know david mccullough is to know that when he writes a speech, he thinks about it because he has something he wants to say. back in a moment. stay with us.

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charlie: syria pass civil war is considered the greatest political and humanitarian crisis of the 21st century -- syria's civil war. how are journalists collecting ? e news and video feeds how can people in the west support their work? how do women's voices play into this tragic narrative? joining me or three syrian women who have been directly involved in the effort to distribute news about the war -- joining me are three syrian women.

i am pleased to have them all here. tell me exactly about aleppo, being on the front lines. >> i was in aleppo before the siege, so i have not seen the worst. charlie: where were you during the siege? >> i was in turkey then. i was one of the u ones who happened to be outside of the city when it was under the siege. even before the siege, daily life was suffering. basic issues that are not newsworthy for any journalist -- it would occupy your whole life, like someone who was killed by shrapnel in the street is not newsworthy, but for you, it might be the friend you have spent the last 2, 3 months with, the source you have been dealing with the past year. this issue of sources and keeping distance with the source is pretty striking for me. it seems all these values of

impartiality, keeping distance -- it's overces because i was pretty much inside the story and i was afraid that i might be the story one day. be thatking news might i was killed in an airstrike, and that night -- that might not make it to international media. charlie: how did you handle that? hardly: -- >> hardly, but i think syrians found a way to adapt with what is going on. somehow, you live moment by moment and except what is life, but on the other hand, you start to live more because you feel this might be your last moment, so you let go. you do things you would not do if you were trying to strategically plan for the future. you love more. you have more friends, more powerful relationships, and you try to do your best.

all the things that you might not be able to do tomorrow because you might not be there. >> i was born in damascus, and i moved to the united states when i was 15 years old. initially, i worked for some civil rights organizations in chicago and minnesota. in 2013, post-conflict, i relocated to turkey and cofounded the civil society organization called the syrian forum. basically, it is a consortium on institutions that tries to serve the syrian conflict across the spectrum from media to strategic studies. ibecame an activist because was concerned about the human rights violations that were happening in syria. we have a regime of 50 years old that was deeply rooted, and it

was basically arbitrarily killing civilians and detaining people who rose up and were calling for freedom and democracy, the very basic price of any developed country. have been very involved. charlie: you are here for what reason? >> we are here because we want to talk to the public. we want to change that very typical perception that has been going on in the mainstream media, that the syrian conflict is either assad or isis. we want to tell the public that we exist. syrian civil society have emerged post-conflict, and they're are the ones considered to be the boots on the ground, delivering humanitarian aid. they are the ones doing peace building among communities. they are the ones who are fighting terrorism. women are on the front lines of

fighting terrorism. they are combating child recruitment by violent extremist groups, and we want to highlight in this conflict because this is inottom-up approach where the future, when the assad regime falls, syrian civil society will be responsible for the vacuum. charlie: when do you think it will end? >> once the international society take a serious role in holding assad accountable. that are a lot of concerns these strikes were a pr stunt for the government, but this is the first time the regime is held accountable and want of the evernational community, since the chemical attack that and whenin august 2013

the previous administration has drawn a red line saying, if you commit more atrocities or use chemical weapons, we will take action, and no action was taken, which basically was kind of a green light to the assad regime and russia. the u.s. strikes were a message to deter assad and russia from committing more chemical attacks. this is what we were cheering for. we were not cheering for the intervention specifically, but we were basically supportive of this action because we want to deter assad and russia from committing these crimes as well as forcing them to come back to the negotiation table. >> i just have one point to add here. i think we were speaking about this earlier. i wouldtty sad, but hold assad accountable specifically for pushing syrians toward the stage where we are actually cheering for another country bombing our land. in 2011, when there was a survey

supporting international intervention in syria, more than 80% said no, we are completely international intervention. sadly now, all these syrians who voted no then would support the attack because assad pushed us to this level. i also want to add -- this is not the first strike on syria. u.s. strikes have been going on for the past three years. more than 4000 strikes have hit syrian lands, many of them have killed civilians on the side. last month, they killed 70 people mistakenly, and that was the only strike that happened this year where no civilian was killed. charlie: what does your organization do? >> our organization is mostly concerned with development and

education. on communitybased centers. we set up community centers and the most underprivileged in neighboring countries, and we are responsive to these communities and their needs. charlie: you are training people every day? >> yes. charlie: you live in georgia? >> yes. charlie: what do you want the united states to do? how can the united states do more to help the syrian people? a difficult question, but i think they have already been involved in the military phase of the problem for the conflict, but, sadly, they were only focusing on the consequences of the last three years, which is isis. we all agree that isis is just a power.of assad being in

he only exists because of the regime. in 2012, when the uprising started to hold arms, assad released most of the leaders who are now leading isis and other .xtremist groups from prison charlie: he wanted to a couple is what? >> in 2011 when the demonstrations are pretty much peaceful, he started spreading the propaganda that we are fighting terrorists. at that time, we were laughing at that propaganda. all of those who hit the street were either women university students and pretty much regular syrians just amending the basic , finishing emergency law -- charlie cole this was the wave that came after the arab spring began? >> exactly. the way the regime started that propaganda and we were laughing at, it turned out to be true. the release of the extremists

from the assad prisons, and .uddenly, they held arms getting arms easily also happens .or a reason charlie: some would like to say the united states focus is on assad more than on isis. as you have said, he is a recruiting tool for isis, correct? would you like to see the united states focus more on assad or simply focus on both at the same time? >> ever since we published research done by these groups show that 96% of the syrians who have been killed since the beginning of the uprising were killed by assad's forces, unlike ish the international media reporting. i think assad is killing more syrians and iraqis than any foreigner.

isis is terrorizing us more than anyone else. despite that, assad is the one who has killed 96% of the syrians. for me, for most of the syrians who are inside, assad is the problem. charlie: would he be the primary focus you would like to see? our secretary of state said not long ago that our principal strategy now is to attack isis until we have simply run them out of iraq. that is a wrong strategy as far as you are concerned? >> i think they are still dealing with the symptoms and leaving the elements alone. as long as assad is still in power, maybe we will not have isis next year, but we will have another name, a different group which is functioning the same. the united in fact states did support all of the pre-syrian forces and all the syrians who are opposed to a assad, is that enough with the support of the united states and

other arab countries to overthrow assad? or not? has he stabilized with russian support his own place so that it would be now, unlike 2011, very, him difficult to overthrow or change the regime? >> it -- if the only way for someone to have power over a city is to forcibly displace all ,f the residence of that area how is that person in power? if the only way for this person to be in power is to bomb -- charlie cole in his own people. >> bomb his own people and destroy the infrastructure of his own country, how did you call this person in power? i don't care how many bombs come down. you have to have legitimacy with your own people. the legitimacy is gone. the amount of blood that has if i have to put in

detention more than 200,000 of my own people in order to keep them quiet, if i have to drive out millions of people from my country, most of the activist that were inside the country are now outside and working in neighboring countries. why? why do we have to do that. charlie: because you cannot survive inside? >> no, you cannot. i cannot go back to syria. i cannot go back to the border. i i try to cross the border, will be detained. probably no one will ever see me again. even though i am not a politically outspoken person, i am not a political activist, i am someone who works in humanitarian aid. this is all i have done. this is the biggest mistake i years,ne in the last six and yet, i have to pay the price. this is my land just like it is their land. it is my right to live in my

land, to go back to my city. i cannot go back. house was not destroyed, but i cannot go back to my house. taking away this basic right from me -- this is the great atrocity. charlie: how do you feel about the west's reaction to what is happening in syria? do you feel like you have been ignored? >> we've been doing this work for the past six years so far. i had a tour in the u.s. in 2015, and i have spoken to officials in the state department and all these entities that are involved in somewhat supporting local actors inside syria, and i really found myself saying exactly what i said a couple of years ago during this time of travel. west -- i mean, i do not

want to say that the west has turned its back on the syrians. they are trying to support syrians in a way, but yet, they are not -- sanctions are not enough to pressure assad. charlie: what's next? >> the sanctions that are currently employed are not affecting the regime and its compatriots. charlie: what do you want to see ? states,ed states, arab countries and other countries around the world do? >> i would like people to see the syrian story through syrian eyes, not through the outside. seeing more syrians speak about syria. listening to syrians. we all heard about the strike, but we have not heard any syrians speaking about how the strike affected his life, what he felt about it, is he hopeful about it? we have heard very few voices.

charlie: what would they say? what would syrians say who have been affected by the strike? >> the families that i've spoken -- they were happy. they were hoping that the strike might put a line for assad, and he might think twice before using chemical weapons, but chemical weapons is just one of the weapons being used against civilians. barrel bombs usually killed more than 70 they are in a crowded area. i would love also for someone to counter the russian propaganda -- the russian propaganda. they are saying they are there in syria on the ground. and it was there in aleppo when the strikes started. russia helped isis advanced in aleppo suburbs.

the moderate -- the rebels were edited of strikes, one from the sky from isis -- charlie: were they hitting them because they were opposed to the assad regime? >> they were hitting them because they are moderate. russia was hitting the moderate rebels because they want to feed assad propaganda that he is only fighting terrorists, which are isis. they helped isis advance. we have all seen the story of .almyra those rebels were fighting isis on the ground, and the rebels have paid the highest price ever, more than any other international force who are supposedly fighting isis, and .hey are the main targets this has not been highlighted enough in the international media, and that, in a way, is ofing russia the legitimacy

fighting isis, which is something they are doing the opposite of. charlie: go ahead. >> no, to build on what she said, what we would ask the public or the united states to do is to empower local actors and organizations that are doing the work on the ground. charlie: empower them by financial support? >> on many levels. before we even talk about negotiations and peace talks, we would demand the release of political detainees who were detained early on just by calling out for freedom and democracy in the country. we want protection of civilians. we want safe zones for civilians before we even talk about any peace talks, and, of course, you

would want a song to be forced to come back to the negotiation in order for a cease-fire to really take place. >> and eventually, hold of the war criminals accountable. this is the example we want to lead the new generation with. not like many of those who are criminals living freely in the u.s. without even being asked why they are here, while us, the syrians who are journalists and activists are being harassed at every single airport we land at because we are holding syrian passports. charlie: you are great for -- you are all brave to do what you do, but i would be remiss if i did not say there are many brave journalists from america who come in around the world who come to syria to tell the story. >> i know you have met clarissa. i met her in syria. and that her in the house of my friend when she was reporting early in 2012. if i ask yous that

to name two syrian journalists who have been kidnapped by isis, you would not be able to do so, while if i ask you to name 10 foreign journalists who have been harassed by isis, you would be able to do that. the syrian victims in general are very much underreported because they are syrian, and i think this is very sad because they are the ones doing most of the jobs. they are the main source of information, and despite that, because they are syrian, they are very much neglected. i have a friend who has been kidnapped by isis for the last four years. although he suffered and fought isis ideologically more than u.s. citizen, if you were to apply for a visa, i'm sure he would not be granted one. charlie: thank you very much for coming. thank you for joining us. see you next time. ♪

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