♪ inouncer: from our studios new york city, this is "charlie rose." charlie: we begin with sally eight's testimony, to the former -- he testified alongside james clapper. senators question them on a range of issues, related to russia's meddling in the u.s. election. yates addressed michael flynn, saying he was vulnerable to blackmail. >> we believe general flynn was compromised with regards to the russians. charlie: joining me now from washington from the washington

post and new york times, i am pleased to have them here. what did she say today that we did not know? >> she gives a more detailed outline about what conversations she had between herself and the general counsel of the white house. of when us a timeline she first called the general counsel to tell them they were concerned, the meetings they had come of the office. an offer she made to detail the evidence they had, that there were reasons to be concerned in general flynn might be able to be compromised or blackmailed by russians. is the last day she had that conversation with the general counsel, her last day in the white house. we heard more details from her on that front. we heard more from yates and clapper as to the unmasking .here was and there was one instance in which a trump team member's name

was unmasked on an intelligence report. they retorted and asked many questions about whether they had been a source of any leaks. the reviews from the subcommittee chairman afterwards were fairly positive. but she took a lot of feet from members of that committee during the hearing about various issues related to things they did not have to do with the russian investigation. it was the details we learned from gates today. it was a very serious concern, not just informing white house officials there were conversations between trump officials, but issues he could be compromised or blackmailed. charlie: what was the most significant thing for you? when you have the acting attorney general say they're so concerned the sitting national security adviser of the white house is compromised and the susceptible to blackmail, you

have to rush to the white house for two separate meetings. it speaks to the urgency of the fbi and justice department. and what of the white house 16 days? if donald trump fired michael felt he couldhe not trust his national security advisor anymore, what changed? originally, he kept him on for a long time. broke did hee news change his mind and say i suddenly cannot trust them anymore. did obama warned against hiring of michael flynn? matt: sure. we know that in their private meeting after the election, president obama warned president-elect trump against hiring michael flynn. but you can see, obama had fired

michael flynn from the defense agency. flynn was a controversial figure at that time. he talked about how sharia was spreading across the nation. and, there is a reason to be scared of muslims. you can see from president-elect trump's standpoint, he may not have taken those concerns from president obama quite as seriously. president trump is tweeting about the fact it was obama who said this, that first gave him top security clearance area -- clearance. >> yes, they did give him security clearance. but they also showed him the door at a certain point because they were dissatisfied with the service. there has been quite a lot of tweeting happening. opened, with how members of -- panel should be asking

intimating she could have been the source of those leaks. and she did get those questions from members of the panel. they said the fake news media must be upset. did notue that yates open an entirely new can of worms or point to other members of the trump administration, but she did give details about how much urgency there was behind her concern and how often she was in touch with the white house counsel about expressing that urgency in fairly short order. the timeline of these meetings all happened within four days from january 26 to 30. happenededge of what in the next 18 days ago's cold because she was shown the door herself. know what the legal counsel and the white house is saying he did with the information? we know just what the

white house has said that so far. they wentey have said immediately to donald trump with their concerns. was an imagine it holdover from the obama administration, what is she up to? what we learned here was that sally yates said, let me show can have access to the raw, underlying intelligence. do not take my word for, check it out yourself. one thing we want to know is, when did they get the transcripts of the call between flynn in the russian ambassador? when did trump read them, and how long did trump know that what the white house said publicly was not true? and if there were discussions about letting flynn go before that information became public and published? charlie: clapper confirmed that

british intelligence figures had shared sensitive information connecting to trump's campaign. fromume that is different the dossier stuff, or not? that is different. what everyone is trying to stay away from, the dossier. nobody wants to touch that. clapper said they were not able to deal with some sourcing. sources that are blind to the people who are reading it. did confirm european intelligence agencies did pass information last year to the united states about potential meetings between trump administration officials and russians. it was part of a flurry of information that was coming in last year that was credit -- causing great problems for the trump administration.

charlie: what new do we know about what trump said regarding wiretapping of trump tower? did it come up today? was this about general flynn and what she said to the legal counsel and the white house? her goingy question into these other areas. the general category, the was links to unmasking. panelists did ask yates and clapper if they had requested unmasking, if they were aware of it. requestedid he once an unmasking that was related to somebody on the trump team. they were asked if they were the source of the leaks, they were opinions, andr who in the greater intelligence

community could have been privy to that information. had reportsted she where they were already unmasked. she spoke about the intelligent -- intelligence value. in terms of specifics on wiretapping, that was not a focus. the other topic that was addressed was a lot of questioning today about the decision yates made when she told the trump administration she would not uphold the immigration ban, the first executive order in court. harshok a lot of questions from republican members of the panel, and shot back a lot of direct, pointed answers. it was interesting, firing across the dais for those exchanges. it is not related to the russian administrate -- investigation. but it is the first chance congresses had to grill yates in an open forum.

but this is the first time since she was let go from the trump administration. questions months of that were pent-up people wanted to ask about question -- wanted to ask. there was one oblique reference. clapper said previously i am unaware of anybody in the trump campaign being the subject of foreign intelligence surveillance wiretap. he said it is still true, but then again, i did not know about the fbi investigation into possible collusion between russia and the trump campaign. sally eighth added her two cents. she said i am unaware anybody on the campaign was wiretapped. there is little room in there. subject to was foreign intelligence collection,

but only after he left the campaign. said he was not aware of the counterintelligence investigation. there was some pushback on that point, too. various people left on, trying to figure out why it was not shared and what it meant about the information they were looking into. charlie: thank you, both. the french election. ♪ charlie: we continue this

evening with the french election. independent centrist emmanuel a decisive victory over marine le pen on sunday. macron at age 39 came the youngest presidents and the youngest since napoleon. many cautioned that there were deep divisions throughout the country. a quarter of the french electorate abstained from voting. the landslide is a rebuke to the national populism behind brexit and the election of donald trump. speaking to supporters, macron said europe and the world are waiting for us to stand up for of the linesman -- enlightenment. charlie: joining me is an author

and staff writer from new yorker magazine. and a correspondent for several dutch and belgian networks. and the founder of the web magazine french morning. and, a philosopher and filmmaker. i am pleased to have all of them here. bernard, was this a victory for macron, or a defeat for le pen? were people voting against her, or for him? >> it was both. a huge defeat for le pen. she was predicted to be the winner. and she lost, very strongly. , to thestrong defeat wave of populism in france. a very big defeat. it was even a sort of suicide. was suicide publicly during by main television debate

dropping her mask of respectability. ugly,vealed her true, extremist self. also aer thing, it is positive votes in favor of emmanuel macron. he was really good during this campaign. he is best to overcome the old parties. he has the most modern part of the left aligning with the most progressive part of the right. he is at the edge of being a winning bet. this is what happened yesterday in france. against, only the vote it is a vote for emmanuel macron. charlie: how did he do it? >> luck as part of it.

he is not the first centrist candidate in france. there have been many over the years. he was the first one to benefit from several things. candidate on weak the right. francois fillon, had many problems. a very, very weak socialist party with francois hollande at the bottom in terms of polls. that was something for him. and he understood what the country needed. he was someone different, someone young, someone people were not scared of. being different and being reassuring for a lot of people. charlie: he ran a good campaign and a good debate. >> he ran a very efficient campaign. it is just the beginning for him, but it is impressive that 39. charlie: elections come, when? >> in june. charlie:?

what does it say about france >> two things. -- charlie: what does it say about france? >> two things. in france,able right with --group together against le pen. they said we cannot advance the cause of a politician with whom we do not agree. they set it on the day of the first round. that is a huge thing. fillon is as distant from macron ideologically as marco rubio is from hillary clinton. but instead of saying remaining with my family on the right, he said, no. the republican values are more

ideologicalan things. it did not happen here and it did have been -- happen there. we can talk about this more, the still dramatic experience of the war and the price paid by collaborating with the extreme right. the other thing i think it says, is a thing unto himself. he is not a default candidate because they did not want le pen . respects, theany french obama. he represents another way into politics. he is inspiring for people who are truly exhausted by a spiritual and intellectual bankruptcy of the establishment parties, left and right. in theu saw macron

debate with marine le pen, it was an extraordinary performance. it was not just good enough, he was really possessed with a vision of france. he knew how to confront evil, someone very bad, and do it without shame. didn't aggressively and consistently. he is a very impressive guy. charlie: what sort of presidency will we see from him? >> these are small tables, a real debate that was a high point for him. right, she ist sitting right there. he is 39 years old, looking at this experienced politician, a woman who showed her ugly self and he said it to her. i thought it was very powerful and people need that. we want a normal president and we got francois hollande.

we do not want it anymore, we want a real president, a leader. will have toron pull it off on his own. he is the man to save france and the european union, e.u., the axis with germany. charlie: what should we expect from him? francois hollande was not such a bad president, he was a good president. -- it is truets, that macron had an incredible series of the flukes and chances above his head. even the worst novelist in the world could not have imagined such an intrigue of what happened in the last year. , and soure of fillon on. politician, according to

machiavelli, is nothing but someone who is able to save the moment. macron did that. mrs. le pen, he had give him a huge help. mrs.st think mrs. -- thank le pen. she was so disgusting, her anti-semitism and hatred. at that point, he is young. and in my old country, it is a great thing to happen, have youth. charlie: you just praised of francois fillon, but he suffered enormously bad ratings. at one point in his cabinet was mr. macron. as president, how will he be different? he will be liberal in

economics, it is not a bad thing or an insult. liberal to some is a bad thing. leftn, coming from the says liberalism is great. globalization is great. it had to be corrected, of course. there are excessive -- excesses of globalization, he dares to say that. this probably will be the main part of his novelty. charlie: what role will his wife play? >> it will be interesting. she is 25 years older than he is. she is six to, he is 39.

is 64, he is 39. >> macron talked about having a status for the first lady. we see what she does. she has been very discreet, she is very important for him. they have been together forever. another father for the children. heras grandchildren, grandchildren are his grandchildren. she has been a big part of his career. she is there. it is not so sure. the way families play a role in politics is not the same in france as it is here. he was an investment banker? secretary to the minister of finance which is the socialist

government. but he is a centrist. york,nch people in new they are entrepreneurs, they live in new york. he does not dislike of money or business, he comes from business and money. likeses making money, he putting people to work. it is not common in france at that politician wants to put everyone back to work. he is in favor of that. he will adjust the capitalist society, but he will work with it. in that sense he will be an easier partner for mr. trump then she would be. charlie: there were reforms he wanted when he first took office. sarkozy, you mean? charlie: not from the socialist party.

i remember being in paris the week after sarkozy was elected. we were talking about a program of radical reform. and the moment you attempt to make change in france, there is always a response. usually, the government backs down. i do not know how he will evade that formula. i do not know what he will do in response. centrist has a specific meaning in france, a pit -- particular line of inheritance. but it is a mistake to see macron as a centrist in the sense of a confused, befuddled pragmatist who takes a little from all sides. would think what i of as a liberal reformer. he has a program of liberal reform. aboutt debate he talked

flexibility, bringing a new flexibility to the top-heavy france. charlie: is france ready for that? >> they elected him. job market reforms are at the center of his platform. it is important for him. llon also did that. n,t against le pen and hammo the first to put work at the center of his platform. than be protected by the state, which is what marine le pen was saying. he is saying he is going to do reforms. and france's demonstration started yesterday night. >> not a day goes by. >> if he has a majority in june he will be able to do that. for long time after john f. kennedy came to power in the united states and was assassinated three years later, french politicians imagined

themselves fashioning themselves like him. and wanting to create, because of age in part, and style in part, a sense of a new frontier. is this possible? is this what he wants to do? will he attracted very young people in france who want to come to work for government and have an opportunity to change their country? >> this is how he appeared yesterday night, to be frank. when he was under the pyramid of the louvre with his family, his wife brigitte, and her children and grandchildren, it was very kennedy-like. and a lot of french people like me have this thought that if is a french kennedy, it might be this young man. of course he was called that. , a newnew frontier border.

he was probably the most positive candidate having the will to embrace again and revive again the european dream. macron is the european citizen of french origin. charlie: one question in france has been the role of the state. will that change? talks about flexibility and free markets. he does noting, regard free markets is the work of the devil or ultra-liberals. statists a state -- tradition. his background is as a technocrat. he works within the state and believes those things are not contradictory. -- iestion about macron remember a philosopher said

about an earlier technocrat who succeeded the presidency, he has everything except a sense of tragedy. what he meant, there are many problems in the world and in france that cannot be resolved by technocratic solutions. when you heard macron in his debate, he was brilliant in suggesting the power of fear could be overcome by the power of intelligence. that is what he did. but there are some problems that simply cannot be resolved, religious fanaticism, fear, identity, that are not susceptible to solutions that come from the technocrat's toolbox. charlie: such as? find out.trying to human history is a long struggle to find out what it is. but it does not come from a technocrat's toolbox. the challenges to overcome the weaknesses. obama faced that problem,

pragmatism is not always an option. charlie: speaking of the obama campaign, the hacking. what do we know about the hacking at this stage? always -- it serves him well. >> no, no. >> he was more pro-america than he was pro-russia. it serves him well. russia is the bad guy here. if we all find out what it is. it is back to europe and now. big sigh ofd a relief. and now, is the euro going to decline, pullout? that is all back on. >> just to add, here is the problem.

he cannot fail. he cannot fail. we have had a series of failed presidencies in france. roadcron were to fail, the opens to extremes never seen before. we have had a series of failed presidencies because france has been a fickle country to govern for their reasons we mentioned. a unique position. if he fails, everything we like about him, his commitment to enlightenment, will go with him. can rarely think of a politician on whom so much depends. if he fails, the republic fails. charlie: thank you all very much. bernard in london, thank you. ♪

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i need a private connection for my business. wifi pro from comcast business. public wifi for your customers. private wifi for your business. strong and secure. good for a door. and a network. comcast business. built for security. built for business. charlie: carlos ghosn is here, he is the chief officer of the renault nissan alliance. credited with saving the japanese automaker with collapse when he took control 15 years ago. december he was appointed chairman of the board of mitsubishi. i am pleased to have him back at this table. welcome. nissan, you are stepping down as ceo, remaining as chairman or not? carlos: yes, i remain as chairman. charlie: what is your numeral their? carlos: i have been ahead of the

company for 17 years. there is a new guard coming. strong about the team in place which allows me to concentrate more attention. and to continue to construct this alliance between the two. charlie: there was no sense that you had too many jobs and were stretched too thin? leaving nissanst at the moment where i'm taking position as chairman of mitsubishi. you will have to pay more attention to mitsubishi. it will put somebody in charge of the company. charlie: can you do for mitsubishi what you did for nissan? carlos: there is a chief executive officer for mitsubishi motors. but with my experience on the fact that i know the environment

in japan, i can help it move much faster into revitalizing the company. charlie: what did you do it nissan that made it better? carlos: if you look at the scorecards, it is one thing. the company more than doubled its size, $20 billion of debt. $16 billion of cash. the assets of the company have grown a lot. charlie: didn't mitsubishi fail the omissions of standard? failure, thatthe is where the lines to lace. mitsubishi asked for support. everybody talks about acquisitions. west and east. was there a culture clash? carlos: no, there were conflicts, but well-managed. you have a conflict

but do not manage it. obviously, asian companies do way as european companies. what is different in terms of practices, values, a lot of things are different. but when you put a common project on the table and it is explained and everybody buys into it, you can manage all these differences. charlie: you have a knack for cost cutting, don't you? carlos: yes, i know all the coo's start with cost-cutting. if it is limited to this, it is a failure. at the end of the day, it is about growing the company and adding value. it has to start somewhere. you can be tight on costs, but

you have to build the brand, manage innovation. all of this shows into the evolution of the revenue of the company. charlie: it has to do not with cost-cutting, but many -- maybe it does. we know about stories where auto companies acquire another with great failure. what happens there? what mistakes are they making that you are not going to make? carlos: i am not merging the anies.y's -- comp tot of the failures are due the fact that one identity is lost, or people feel they become a second-rate citizens to a bigger entity, and you do not want that to happen. you want people to feel motivated. everybody has their own identity that they are proud of, their and they arempany,

working together. charlie: as you know with populism that has been true here and in europe with brexit and in elections, the recent election in france, where populism expressed by le pen and other ways, suffered defeat. some say it was a victory for globalism, globalization. what are the advantages? what are we missing when arelace want to say you responsible for the loss of jobs, one item after another? macron did some of that in winning. itlos: in a certain way, will continue. what we see with the emergence of populism in some countries is the fact that people do not understand anymore the benefit of globalization. job and are losing your people are telling you you are losing it because there is

competition from other countries. charlie: or they just bought your company and is moving overseas. bados: it looks like a trend. if globalization is at the base of you losing your job, you do not want globalization. somehow we need to explain there are benefits to globalization. there are successes, and these need to be corrected, and there are ways to correct these excesses. but not defend the benefits of globalization. at the end of the day you need to share a voice for those who were opposing it. i have seen much of this in the past. charlie: who should be responsible for those were victims of that and cannot find another job because the primary manufacturers and their community left? carlos: at the end of the day of some jobs disappear in markets it is because of the pressure of the consumer. we know this in the current

industry. we cannot afford anything that consumer refuses. they reject us as a brand. we need to give the consumer what they want. this means some changes into our supply change -- chain to be relevant. there are ways to prevent this, training, ottoman sizing, modernizing. there are plenty of things we can do to avoid the heavy social consequences into the country. can be done whenever you are supportive of globalization is, it cannot be a short-term vision. but you need to put it within a certain horizon. including midterm and long-term. when we see all this technology coming, artificial intelligence and breakthroughs in our industry, we need to offset that by reskilling our own people.

that means training, offering engineers, more computer science talent skills and technology for them to do their job without becoming obsolete. you say when do the paper says the market cap of tesla is bigger than ford and general motors? carlos: it is good for tesla. charlie: of course. carlos: it is the only thing i can say. general motors is what, 70,000 versus 10 million? carlos: for some companies, people are looking much more to the future than in the present. companies, people are looking much more in the present that in the future. tesla benefits and it is good for them.

are valuing what they may do in the future. for general motors, ford, nissan, the bottom line of today is the main driver of the valuation. much credit for what you do in the future. time,e: at the same didn't you have an electric car before you even thought about tesla? carlos: we did. we're the biggest seller and producer of electric cars today. we started the electric car. but we're not addressing the premium market, the core of the market. under $35,000. tesla started from the premium market. that is why we not competing against tesla. we are colleagues in promoting electric cars.

each one is investing from a different segment of the market. there is much more attractiveness for premium cars, sports cars, then the common cars of the core market. charlie: much more attractiveness? we want to write about them and talk about them. how much of the future of transportation or a look -- are electric cars? carlos: in urban regions, we are predicting 25% of the cars sold in cities will be electric by 2030. particularly in urban concentration where you have over 50% of the market. emissions driven by and the fact that in many cities we're starting to see a lot of restrictions on circulation of , gasoline cars,

etc.. also, i am telling you things you of art he talked about in interviews. it depends on how fast they can get up to speed with power stations. carlos: exactly. consumers are looking at the sticker price. why tesla is is trying to develop as fast as can.can. -- as it carlos: from 92 million cars, 500,000 were electric cars. they are a very small percentage of the industry as a whole. that it has the biggest potential for development. not because of consumer demand, but emissions standards and the limitations governments -- we are talking particularly the

european, that japanese, chinese thernment, will trigger takeoff of electric cars's markets. charlie: do have significant penetration in the chinese market? carlos: we do. of electric cars of the most vibrant in the world. there is so much incentive the because ofernment the problem of pollution. you to: they incentivize purchase an electric car? carlos: exactly, and they are asking carmakers to make an .ffer we have expanded our plans in china. but before getting the authorization, we needed to commit that we would bring electric cars. there is a push from the offer. what they areknow

doing. are they difficult to deal with? carlos: no, they have their plans and you have to follow their plans. contribute, you receive the appropriate incentive. -- charlie: what is the difference between self driving and autonomous? carlos: autonomous you are in the car and decide if you want to be driven. i'm very optimistic about the fact that people come to the market first. you are in the car, you are responsible for it. the driverless car, there is no driver in the car. otaxi.s the rob it will take more time because technology is complicated and second, you need the regulator that these cars can be

massmarketed. as long as you have somebody in the car if something goes wrong, this person is always responsible and contained back -- can take back of the controls. as we are building connectivity in the car, you will be able to take your hand off the wheel, take your eyes off the road, and talkr a videoconference, to your kids. i have driven in january in palo alto, a car driving me through the city, stopping at the lights and in front of passengers, etc.. charlie: you were in the drivers seat? carlos: i was sitting in the driver's seat. i felt very safe.

in the united states, people hours in aerage 1.5 car a day. that one point five hours, you can do something else. charlie: here is what is intriguing to me about self driving cars. it is that, since they are so driven by software, you can constantly innovate and change the model you bought. that seems to be a huge advantage. you do not have to trade your car into buy another car. carlos: the car is a rational buy and emotional buy. you want to change the design, the materials. is a value, the rational aspect, where you can have new change existing

intelligence in the car. but at the same time, when it comes to status, design, power, -- they trade their car even when it is in good condition. charlie: it is a big business? caros: yes, for every new sold, there are three used cars sold. the size of the market is very big. developedking countries. how long do most people keep a car before they change? carlos: it depends on the market. in the u.s. they change pretty quickly because there are a lot of leases. three or a lease for four years and then they change the card. -- car.

other markets, people keep their cars much longer. charlie: i was talking about ai and how that would affect the evolution of the car that you have bought. fashionhange because of , but you have voice said that technology will not replace, it will only support the forward movement of cars. what we're seeing today in terms of technology is an opportunity for the car industry. we are moving from the commodity business. the car becomes smarter. we are moving from a transportation device to a mobile space where you will do a lot of things. connectivity and things becoming more environmentally friendly. you will see more transformation in the car industry than what you have seen last week. you imagine buying

another car company, so that you do not have three but four? carlos: the way we are organized, is to put everything in common around technology, platforms, that consumers do not care about. brand of things people do care about, which is design, material, functionality of the car, driving performance. that means that logically when you build a platform you will have more companies. it is a win-win because we have a lot of technology. companies join the platform, the more the technology becomes affordable. you share the cost of technology. at the same time, it is more economical to build different bodies in different vehicles on the same platform.

you want to minimize the number of platforms. having as many, carmakers using the same platform. you cannot build on the same platform in a small car, medium car, large car, suv, crossover, pickup truck. they need different platforms. some are expensive. these drive-up costs for the suppliers. you could save on investments and costs, which allow you to be much more price competitive. they have a lot of technology, as many platforms as they need. of the: what percentage workforce in an assembly line, if that is the correct term, is robotic? what percentage is human? carlos: it depends on the country you are in.

u.s., france, germany, u.k., there are more robots. thailand, the creation of employment is very important. the government tries to create jobs. they want you to hire people. depending on the policies and taxation existing, you have a tendency to select more robots are more people. of the bigat is one political questions all governments will face. as we have more technology and more robots and more of the kinds of things -- how do you develop policies for those longer find they have a workplace to go to? it is a central question for the future of government. carlos: it is. completelyo

different roles. where you givees orientation to the technology. when we know how to make an electric car with a zero emissions, we need to offer it. the government can favor the technology or not, depending on the incentives they offer, or the rules they are putting on a missions. our roles with many countries is to be able to propose that by the end of the day, the consumer will make the buy. charlie: thank you for joining us. ♪

alisa: i'm alisa parenti from washington. you are watching "bloomberg technology." let's start with a check of first word news. a white house decision on the withdraw from the paris climate agreement has been delayed for a second time. president trump pledged to renegotiate but has wavered since taking office. white house spokesperson sean spicer says the president will make an announcement after the g7 summit in may. more american troops could be on the way to afghanistan. military advisers are urging president trump to send up to 5000 new troops. there are already 8400 troops backing afghan forces.