♪ in new yorkstudios city, this is "charlie rose." charlie: we begin with the aftermath of monday's terrorist attack in manchester, england. suspect wassay the part of a larger network of collaborators you'd britain remained on heightened alert as several arrests were made. these included the father and older brother of the suspect. it is believed these men have ties to isis, who claimed responsibility for the attack. griff and peter.

i am pleased to have both of them. griff, telling what we have , which is this day considerably later where you are. think there is been a whitening and intensification of the investigation today. he started with one additional suspect -- we started with one additional suspect in custody and we now have eight. five people arrested today in the u.k., most of them in manchester, most of them in the neighborhood where the suspect had leaved. -- haven't lived. you also have suspects arrested in libya, the brother and father of the suspect. the younger brother was preparing to carry out an attack

in tripoli. authorities say they have disrupted his attack and he has confessed to being part of a as well as having been involved in the plot in the u.k. and helped his brother to carry it -- carry out the plot. charlie: who else was part of a plot? griff: they haven't said. we know the three brothers were involved, as will as the father. the older brother is here in manchester. the others, we don't really know who they are. one of the big questions for investigators and the british public that we don't have been answer to, do british authorities have the bomb maker in custody? i think it is a crucial question. the bomb on monday night was much more powerful and sophisticated than what british authorities are used to seeing here. i think they are very concerned about that fact and they want to

make sure they have the man who created the bomb, who built it, in custody. it doesn't seem like they think they do at this point. britain remains on critical alert, that is the highest state of alert. we saw thousands of reddish troops standing out in london today -- british troops standing out in london today, guarding buckinghamincluding palace. britain is still a country on edge. prime minister has said another attack at this point may be imminent. we just know what does that is in fact the case. charlie: they clearly are planning for, it sounds like come up with the alert in the rollout of so many police and military people. griff: they are. in manchester, they are known for having a dominantly unarmed

police force, so you have soldiers on the street is really unusual, even the site of unarmed police on the street is unusual. here in manchester, you don't have soldiers on the street, but a good number of armed police officers patrolling the streets, especially the major squares, the central square outside the town hall, it is become a site of public mourning where people are leaving flowers and crying, giving prayers of remembrance. you do have quite a number of armed police officers keeping an eye on the scene, very reticent about the possibility of a follow-up. charlie: peter, what have we learned about the relationship between abedi and isis recruiters? peter: we don't know quite yet what the relationship is, if anything. we do know that isis claimed responsibility for the attack,

and i wrote 24 hours ago that it has some merit, because isis is careful about claiming responsibility for the attacks it either inspires or directs. what is not clear is whether it was inspired or directed by isis, perhaps from libya. we don't know the exact dimensions of this thread charlie: with respect to isis today, what does the signal to you as they lose some of that syria,te in iraq and that this will become their new mode of attack against the west? reallyanother short is new, since 2014, their spokesman has been calling for attacks on the west. i think it has backfired. anytime there is an attack on the west, it amplifies military pressure on isis. if you go back, once they beheaded jim foley and other hostages, the united states put

the pressure on isis. invaded syria.y they are not a ragtag group. they have significant support. is inave a strategy that conflict, they want to have a caliphate, but by encouraging these attacks in the west, they have much amplified military pressure, which is diminishing the geographical caliphate everyday. charlie: my impression is they are no longer recruiting people to make the journey to syria, but asking them to do things where they are now living. peter: we've seen a huge drop of recruitment of people going to syria. for instance, in the united states, where six people attempted to go to syria every month to join isis, that is down to one or zero per month. it is also true writ large. the number has slowed to a trickle. no one wants to join a losing

organization. isis is making a virtue of the present situation and calling for attacks in the west. unfortunately, we will continue to see them. griff, the fact that they are looking for a , whosticated bomb maker may or may not have been abedi, does that suggest it was professional attack? griff: more professional than britain is used to seeing. it was the first successful bomb attack in the u.k. in 12 years. 2005 transity bombings in london. this is the first time attackers have carried out a fatal bombing attack here. we have seen other terrorist attacks here. just two months ago, there was the individual who ran down pedestrians with a car on as mr. bridge -- westminster bridge and

stabbed a police officer in front of parliament, that is a much easier attack to carry out. that involves getting in a car, grabbing a nice and going out and doing it. an attack like we saw monday night at manchester arena, that is simply a much harder kind of attack. we see this kind of attack happened across the middle east, we see it happen in south asia, but it is very unusual for it to happen here in the u.k.. is manchester a hotbed for radical extremist groups? peter: there was an al qaeda plot that was disrupted in 2009 in manchester. they were planning to attack shopping center. it there is some history. i would not necessarily call it a hotbed. manchester is a big city. unfortunately, we have seen plots in london, plots in manchester, the people who attacked in london came from leeds in the north. the 2005 plotters.

, you'veitish cities seen small numbers of people being attracted to the theology. one thing i am surprised by, we have not seen that many successful attacks in britain of any magnitude. the british have disrupted 13 plots in the last three years, they say. compared to what we have seen in france and belgium, it is a different story. it has been up until now mostly , peoplephone phenomenon coming out of the french or belgium prison systems. charlie: it raises the question of how do you find security procedures that will in fact try to limit this? is,, is intelligent so the primary weapon we have against these attacks? peter: i think so. number ofs had a cases since 2009, and they have found that people with the most , thenation are peers

family, then teachers or authority figures. the least useful information comes from strangers. but strangers are most likely to contact the authorities. they are producing. positive spirit -- they are .roducing false positive spi arrested some family members already in this case. we are seeing people who know senseing, it is common that the people who know the most of the people who interact with this individual. they perhaps go to the authorities or go to an islamic organization to say i season the going on here, maybe it is nothing. that is really the way you disrupt these things. isrlie: i assume the focus

now to see how many people in manchester or outside of manchester were involved in the planning, and if there was any direction from outside manchester. peter: yes, and it could come in a lot of sheets or forms. we know isis has a fairly strong franchise in libya. was he trained in libya? was he directed by somebody in libya? was someone in contact with him in the days leading up to the explosion? story unfoldthe here in the united states where people were trade -- trained by al qaeda. where you are sitting in york, there was a guy trained by al qaeda, an american citizen. he built a number of hydrogen peroxide bombs in denver in 2009 and was planning to blow them up in the manhattan subways. luckily, british intelligence tipped off the americans. the fbi followed him into manhattan and he was later arrested. that is the kind of scenario

that may well be the case here. training overseas, you know connections of some kind, perhaps over encrypted fromcations, and direction the terrorist group. it may not even be isis. al qaeda and the north african group have a presence there. it is probably more likely isis, but we should not discard other jihadist groups. charlie: peter's group is called united states of jihad." we hope to have him here again. thank you for joining us. back in a moment. ♪

♪ charlie: neil gress tyson is here, dr. neil degrasse tyson. he is been described as the most popular nerd in the universe. astrophysicistst alive. he is director of the hayden an evangelistd for scientific curiosity and discovery. he has a popular radio and tv show and his latest book is called "astrophysics for people in hurry." billing is perfect for me. sexiest astrophysicist was 40 pounds ago and seven years ago. just put that in context. charlie: you were a young dude. why did you write this book?

il: people have jobs, they have kids. if you are curious, is there anything that serves that busy i've south? -- that busy lifestyle? there are things i know you have seen, and i wanted to -- charlie: put them together. dip inxactly, you can and out and in concert the needs of the curious individual. charlie: bear with me. astrophysics. neil: we care about everything outside of earth's atmosphere. [laughter] everything out there is us. planets, moons, asteroids, comets, stars, galaxies.

the entire universe past, present and future. the interesting thing is that the laws of physics is not a given. it is not written that had to be this way, but the loss of physics we establish in the laboratory, turns out a apply across the universe and time. i celebrate that in a chapter called "on earth as it is in the heavens." when you apply the was a physics discovered on earth to the universe, you are an astrophysicist. charlie: the definition of the universe? neil: that is tough because i want to say is everything, but recent evidence suggests it might be such a thing as a multi-verse, which is an entity out of which the universe -- which universes are born. if you are asked what was there -- of the uniforms

universe, you would say it was this multi-verse. perhaps with slightly different laws of physics. purposes of today, let me say the universe is everything that we can receive to our detectors from here toward our cosmic horizon. charlie: what do we mean by the big bang? neil: in my field, we are really into one syllable vocabulary. one syllable,. lexicon.llable when jupiter has a red spot, we call it jupiter's a red spot. the universe began, we caught a big bang. ideas kind of a pejorative 30 or 40 ago. but you can't take on -- you kind of take ownership of it.

it was this kind of small spot. charlie: how small? neil: that is the opening sentence of the book. 1,000,000,000,000th of a size of the period that ins the sentence i just spoke. you say, that doesn't make sense. before that, there is an opening quote where i let the reader know, the universe is under no obligation to make sense to you. [laughter] senses?at are our five they were forged in the plains of africa to be finely tuned to not be by aligning. they are not equipped for us to understand what we receive from the universe through science. our senses are the wrong criterion. you just ask, does the observation -- the known facts.

if everything matches, that is the reality, get over it is what we have to say. charlie: what is the timeline for the evolution of the universe? neil: as all of our evidence shows, everything we see from here to our cosmic horizon was in the same place at the same time 13.8 billion years ago. that is what we assign as the birth of the universe. what was around before that, we have top people working on that. i have talked people. charlie: was there a pre-universe? neil: no, other than the idea that there may have been a multi-verse. we have nothing for you there. is that any different from saying, we have no idea how the earth got here, and then we worked on it and figured out how planets form. what about the sun? we figured out how stars form. galaxies, there are still some loose ins there.

the next generation of space telescope is tuned to observe a piece of the universe when and where galaxies were being born. that will plug a hole in our knowledge when it is launched. it is run by summit at nasa. neil: he was the top dog. charlie: i had him on here with me. neil: good, ok. charlie: beyond being director and a hayden planetarium big television and podcaster, do you have time for research? neil: no. hold me back. [laughter] neil: i might put in a few hours a week. i want to boost that number back up. charlie: how do you stay on top of things? neil: it is hard. i have colleagues who are and i attended seminars and speak with them frequently.

i am hanging on. charlie: you don't want to just be a spokesman. neil: no, i don't. ambition, iusional am self-aware it could be delusional. that is the first step. [laughter] neil: in a few years, if there are enough other people on this landscape i know i'll keep a writing books, doing tv, and there are some there -- i want enough so that i can just sort of back away. you won't even notice it because the landscape has changed where no matter where you turn there is someone available to you to bring science. not even the universe. i only know to astrophysicist. that is terrible. neil: there aren't too many of us to begin with. first i want to go to the bahamas to recover, then go to the lab and you don't have to hear from you again. charlie: would you like to be doing that kind of thing or are you a creature of celebrity? neil: no, a perfect day for me

is nothing in my inbox. [laughter] ring, ie phone doesn't don't have any urge to reach out to the public. what has happened is there is an appetite the gets expressed. in the gatekeepers of news, your morning news, your evening news, what happens is the universe flinches and it is like a back signal tickets sent up to the clouds. and i say, there are people who want or need an expiration of things and i get called. documentary. the iam a servant, that is how see myself, a servant for the public appetite for the cosmos. this book is an expression of that servitude. it is a gift, really, because it you made me, your collective to deliveroned me the universe in ways that best serves that curiosity.

in this book, there is no end of mind blowing knowledge about how we understand this universe to work. charlie: why do you think it is? why are we so curious? is it something because it's -- an untested offer hypothesis. i want to research this, i don't know how, speak to and is apologist. human beings are one of the few animals comfortable just sleeping on our back. you never see a horse asleep on its back. most mammals just to not sleep on their back. and we sleep at night. what happens? i will sleep on my back at night and then i wake up. and i look at the stars. andmoon was here last night it is here tonight, and there are other brighter ones, the planets have moved. you have got to be curious. you have to be. i bet this imbued our species

with a curiosity for what is above our head that a beetle can never have because a beetle is always looking down. a bird is always looking down. turtles always looked down. they might try to do ahead thing. charlie: i have a dog called hemingway. he sleeps like this, legs in the air, at night. [laughter] neil: ok. charlie: i always thought it was crazy, now i think it is more crazy. no other mammals do that. neil: i don't know about all mammals, but the ones i know about. ask your dog if he is thinking about the universe. [laughter] charlie: you money mentioning i hope the fact that this book is opening at number one on the "new york times" best seller list. neil: thank you. wow, look whate, i did. then i ways like -- that i

realize, it had nothing to do with me. there is a real curiosity that i think have been undervalued by others in media. people have a curiosity into adulthood -- maybe not everybody, but i am privileged to be able to fan that ember that may be burning and burst into flames, where you are saying, i have got to know. there are some very competitive books on this list. political books, a lot of good books. just floated into the top. i said, that is an affirmation that the public does care about science. charlie: in affirmation of affect you tell it well. sure, i can tell it well, but it doesn't have to land of the list. charlie: you can talk about stephen hawking book, but hardly anybody has read it.

this is a very readable book. neil: i hope so, that is my goal. by the way, is not astrophysics for dummies. that title is already taken. [laughter] neil: it is real astrophysics. if you open any case, you have to pay attention to that. i am treating your intellect with respect. but there are a lot of fun things in there, as well. be moreinformation can resoundingly received if i attach it to some pop-culture things you are you know about. charlie: i think what reasonable success i've had in media is because i have maintained a childhood curiosity. neil: listen, i think if a child is curious and keep that curiosity into adulthood, that is all a scientist is. i am a kid that never lots curiosity. if it is often, what is going on at home? we spent the first year teaching you get to walk and talk and the rest of his life telling him to shut up and sit down. what is going on there?

somewhere in the school system, we need to nurture curiosity on a level that can be sustained even when you graduate, because healthy people you know that run down the steps of high school either of the end of the school year or senior year, "school's out." you are celebrating no longer learning things? charlie: school should teach you to explore things way beyond what you can do. neil: exactly. -- you spend so many more years outside of school than you did inside school. you can create lifelong learners , and you will be inoculated against people who are trying to exploit what might otherwise be your ignorance. you wonderous, and if it is really true, you have a built in skepticism. that is what we need more of in the adult community. charlie: but talk about more question to answer.

einstein's theory of relativity. ifl: this was the follow-on, you will, because isaac new team up with a new theory of motion and theory of gravity, and this worked everywhere we ever measured it. the moon going around earth, earth going around the sun, the moons of jupiter. it was not just a solar phenomenon. the planet neptune was discovered because the planet uranus was not following newtons laws. people say, we found the limit. throw it out,ou maybe there is another planet out there whose gravity we have folded into our equations. it is a hard mathematical problem. charlie: it was responding to the gravity of the other thing? neil: exactly. you have an object, let's calculate its gravity, and there is a gravity here, where must the object be? it is very hard mathematical problem, some brilliant people

worked on it, they made a prediction, look here tonight. the announcement got to an persontory in berlin, a looked at it, and the laws of motion gravity were still intact. is weappens over time find failures at the edge of it, things are not always working. einstein theory of relativity is an updated version of the loss of motion and gravity. it doesn't replace it, it subsumes it. it applies to like coals and the beginning of the universe itself. if you put low speeds and low gravity into einstein's equations, they become newtons equations. that is why i am saying it subsumes noon. charlie: am i right in believing that i have read of the years that over the years we have discovered a firming evidence of how einstein was right? neil: well, so, einstein was right on so many counts. here is something interesting.

when he wrote down his first equation that described how gravity functions of the universe, there is a term in their that represented antigravity. mathematically, it doesn't have to match the universe, you can see the rest of this fits the universe, but there is no antigravity in the universe. here is what happened, what this term did for him is stabilize the universe to become a static entity. if you take at this term, the universe collapses. why would he think the universe would have any kind of motion at all? there was no premise of accurate he says i have to leave it in, i don't know what it is. then hubble discovers the universe is expanding, that is also ok. he doesn't need the term anymore. hubble the man, not the hardware. he did notalized

need the term and took it out and said putting it in was the greatest blunder of his whole life. find arward 70 years, we pressure in the universe operating against gravity that is making our expansion accelerate. have to go back to that term and put it back in. now we need the term, it is real, it is called the cosmological constant. einstein's greatest blunder? it was saying that this was his greatest blunder. [laughter] neil: his only mistake was saying he made a mistake. search: is there a big for finding a unifying theory of gravity? neil: yes, einstein was one of the first out-of-the-box. not just gravity, but all the forces of nature. there's a philosophical idea that -- it is not unfounded, you go back hundred 50 years, there was magnetism, electricity,

these two forces we were playing with and we thought, wait a minute, these are different size of the same coin. we stapled the words together and got electromagnet is a. k exertd out a wea force and electromagnetism for the same. back on a noble prize in 1978. three of the laureates were graduates of my high school. that school has eight nobel laureates among its graduates, seven of which were in physics. they found out they merged as one. now we have the electroweak force and gravity. it is been trying to mix gravity in, but we have top people working on it. charlie: explain why this is important. can anything or any object ever outrun a beam of light? neil: no.

not only experimentally have we never seen it, theoretically we can declare that it is not possible. charlie: what is the significance of that? -- it ishas profound one of the founding principles that make relatively real. charlie: the einstein wrote. neil: yes. we were discovering this was true in our experiments, einstein said let's imagine that it must be so everywhere in the universe, what would be the consequences? lawsf this he derives this of relativity. every time we tested, a comes up correct. he is correct every time we tested. we have a very deep awareness and sensitivity of the operations of nature just the way isaac new dispute charlie: what is the difference between dark matter and dark energy? neil: unfortunately their names are similar. dark matter is what we call the gravity in the universe that has no known origin. dark gravity, if you must.

we see things moving in space and can calculate how much gravity would be enabling that, and then you look at what is there, there is not enough stuff there to account for the gravity making this motion. how much stuff is there? necessaryof what is in the form of matter to make it . so we call it dark matter, is a mystery. the longest unsolved mystery in modern physics, possibly all of science. it has been with us since the 1930's. charlie: in all of science? neil: there i go that far? far.nk and can go that how many branches of science that have a mystery for 80 years? i don't know if any. but certainly the longest unsolved mystery in astrophysics. it remains a mystery. we don't know what it is. if you are a betting person, and you bet on physics -- [laughter] if you are a betting man on

physics, people are suspecting and might be a new kind of exotic particle that just is not interact with us in any normal way, because those dark matter does not have light, it does not reflect light, then light or condemn light, but it does not interact with light in any traditional way that matter interacts with electromagnetism. it is a mystery. dark energy, that is what we call this mysterious pressure that is operating against the wishes of gravity. we don't know what that is, either. i joke that we should remove those terms because we don't know what they are at the most base level, and just call them fred and wilma. something that conjures no image. don't get me started about pluto. you don't want to go there tonight. charlie: parallel universes. neil: if there is a multi-verse, then in principle there are other universes all around us.

i suppose you can think of it as a parallel universe. it turns out, for reasons that at anvolved in physics level beyond i exited the coursework, it turns out the force of gravity can leak out of the debris that is the universe and be felt in adjacent universes. i kind of like the idea that maybe the dark matter in our universe is ordinary matter in a parallel universe whose gravity is leaking and arms -- in two hours. ours.o it is regular gravity across the curtain. it would be the concept of a parallel universe. in principle, we could detect it. but the laws of physics would be slightly different in them and it would be really dangerous to visit. you could collapse into a pile the laws ofse physics that maintain your molecular structure would be compromise.

you want to bring a penny or something inflicted over and see what happens to it. that would be our closest concept to a parallel universe. charlie: you have more than 7 million followers on twitter. neil: approaching 7.5. charlie: and you know everyone of them wants to buy a copy of this. neil: [laughter] that is wholly unrealistic. 10,000 or whatever it is. the book is pretty affordable. the people put on sale for like $11. put right into your jacket pocket. charlie: if you have to get on a plane or subway. neil: oh yeah, a plane is ideal. thanks for showing how you would shoplift the book. [laughter] there. ok over still this famous book.

i am as astonished as you were telling me that i have that many twitter followers. i want to wake up and say, can i remind you that i am an astrophysicist and you can still on follow? there is still time. i see it as an affirmation of appetite that is out there. that is not even the biggest number attached to science in the media. if you look at the website, inlovescience, 30 million people follow that. science?i frickin love neil: well, this is a family show. theit shows that i am not only one on this landscape that was cleared from carl sagan and others who came decades before. charlie: how important is it

when you look at the support of science, how important is it to have a full understanding of what science does for us and why it is so essential? neil: that is a great question. i will not require that a leader know or be fluid in science. i cannot require that. what i would want is that the leader knows when they do not know something and then brings in an expert to it five on it. andthe knows how to -- experts to advise on it, and the knows how to trust the experts. the best leaders are those who know how to listen and choose advisors and that capacity. this is the 21st century, innovations in science and technology are the engines of tomorrow's economy in science and technology provide our health, our wealth in our security going forward. as the science community march on washington, it makes us look

like we're kind of a special interest group. if you want to call is that, fine. what is our special interest? your health, your wealth and your security. a special interest that applies to us all. charlie: stephen hawking and others have said we need to be colonizing some planets somewhere and they talk about mars. neil: yeah. i think we should colonize just because it is a cool thing to do. don't fully agree with their reasons. they make good headlines. we could end up trashing earth and we need a backup planet. or an asteroid could come, a killer virus. something that would devastate the human population. intou have eggs into -- two baskets, you don't break them all. but if you terraform mars and turn it into mars and ship a billion people there, split the species, i get that. whatever efforts that takes, it has got to be easier to figure

out how to deflect the asteroid. it has got to be easier to come up with a super viral zero where no virus will ever infect you. than have to be easier terraforming mars and shipping a billion people there. not only that, if we trashing earth and we want to go to mars after we terraform it, if you can terraform mars and earth, you can terraform earth back into ours. why not? i think in practice, we should do it because it is a cool thing to do and it is a scientific frontier, but as a solution defending the species, i don't see it as realistic. plus, you're going to watch 4 billion people go extinct and do nothing about it? we are fine over here, we are the half it is going to survive and propagate the human species. i don't see it as realistic. so yeah, i say let's do it, but not for those reasons. charlie: these and other questions are answered in

"astrophysics for people in a hurry." thank you for coming. neil: you do good by science. keep it going. charlie: we will be right back. ♪

♪ the justice and

security correspondent from cbs news, where we are colleagues. in a new book, he explores tensions between law-enforcement and communities of cover. it is called "black and blue." i'm very pleased to have jeff here at this table for the first time. welcome. jeff: thank you. charlie: the origins of this book? jeff: covering ferguson, baltimore, covering chicago, i felt compelled to get facts out there. on both sides. side ofsy to tell one the story, but what is harder is telling both sides of the story in a manner which you are being fair. and open-minded. that is what i saw to do in the book. charlie: what did you think was missing from understanding? jeff: just an accurate for trail of what is going on on each side. police officers who feel underappreciated, underpaid, overworked, and who feel they are on the front lines of having social ills.of the

i talked to the head of the police unit in chicago, who said, we cannot raise your kids or cure your psychosis. people are asking us to do too much. on the other side, you have black americans who feel like police don't treat them with respect. you have stories in these justice department reports of people being strip-searched in their neighborhoods. how demeaning and the moralizing is that? i wanted to get to the bottom of all these stories, written the band-aid off and talk to these people about what the real y is. these police officers go to community meetings and are in their uniforms and i can't really tell people how they feel. in a way, i went behind the scenes and allow them to open up. i took my iphone, i did not take a camera crew, i took my iphone and spoke to police officers who are frustrated, who wanted to get their message out that they

don't feel we show them respect. you have the same thing from the other side. while there is this divide, there are people on both sides who have more in common than they would think. charlie: what is the breakdown? what happens? the lack of training, the lack of something? jeff: the lack of both of those things, i think you'd fear, let's take that for example. if you are police officer and ofu see images on tv an african-americans yelling at plays opposite in the neighborhood, that can create a fear appeared on the other side, if you are a black american and you have grown up with parents who have lived in the south, ,irmingham, montgomery, alabama marched in the south and were confronted with water hoses and billy clubs and dogs. that creates a fear. you have the more contemporary

issue with ferguson, baltimore, what is happening in chicago. that creates another type of fear. this is what people in the black community grow up with, and some police officer's, they see these images, as well, and seek the black community doesn't appreciate them. in a way, that creates fear, as well. people: what we need is to talk to each other, clearly. people to talk to them like you and report back what we have found. but also, i would assume, some thee of understanding difficulties that the police officer faces, and understanding what it means to mean -- it means to live in the neighborhood where, as you say, you are strip-searched in your own neighborhood where the assumption is that you have done youthing wrong rather than are a citizen of this neighborhood. jeff: yeah. charlie: and there's no reason

to believe you've done anything. jeff: exactly, that creates a divide. some of it is zero-tolerance policing or stop and frisk, when it existed in cities across this country. a judge ruled it was unconstitutional and a lot of the police department's are moving away from that kind of tactic. you have police department, in an effort to crack down on crime, pounding people in a neighborhood, harassing them essentially without probable cause, that creates this risk. how would you like it if every time you went outside your door, you had a police officer looking at you in a way they are suspicious of you, even though you were just going to the corner store? all of this leads to this .ivide, this rift it is a problem on both sides, because as you say, they are not communicating. in the society we live in with social media, people rather talk then listen.

however, over the last couple of years, there has been an effort policece levers -- leaders and community leaders to reach out and break down those walls to get to know each other. we talk about some of that in the book. there are a lot of people on both sides the notices about lives on both sides of the divide, and how you bridge that gap? that hasis something been an issue for decades in this country. some people in the black community say it is systemic. but is the type of problem that people on both sides are trying to work through, and trying to make better. charlie: what do the people in the black community say in terms of what they think is necessary? jeff: part of it is investing in these neighborhoods. a lot of it -- invest in the neighborhood. hope and and

opportunity in some of these neighborhoods. because they are not seeing it. if you look at the unemployment rate in some of these black neighborhoods in chicago, for example, inglewood, austin, unemployment is in the 20% range . nationally it is 4%. these are communities where there were at one time in history factory jobs, but those jobs have left. there are no real jobs. there is no real opportunity. when you talk about rising crime between police and people facing these social lksues head-on, you have to ta e about the entire picture. maybe part of that is investing in these communities. what causes a police officer to shoot someone running away from him? jeff: could be a number of things. to be a lack of training. could be panic.

could be a number of things. charlie: could be racism? jeff: could be some sort of racism. it is hard to tell, and obviously that is hard to tell. are you referring to the dallas case? charlie: if someone is running away from me, that doesn't seem like a threat. at the same time, and all of these cases, understand all the facts before you speak. jeff: that is true. in the dallas case, the chief him out and it first defended the officer, but then there was a check of the body cam footage, and there was a reversal. , you know, part of the problem is training. you talk to police chiefs across the country in they will acknowledge they need to do a better job of training. more transparency. the body cameras are helping the situation. at first, there were a lot of rank-and-file police officers that did not want them.

now, a lot of them are finding they are helpful. for their own defense, exactly. what we are finding, according to a police chief i spoke with, community members are coming to complain about an officer's action, what they do is they go to the footage and they say, is this what you saw? most of the time it actually clears the police officer. there are a lot of rank-and-file police officers who are now welcoming his body cameras because it is backing up their side of the story. charlie: do we need truth and reconciliation processes like they had in south africa? jeff: i talk about that in my book. south africa, that was a unique situation. but truth and reconciliation, it is something the chicago policing task force recommended, some sort of cleansing process. i think in some way, that might on what i found in

my research and interviews, but all it means is acknowledging what has happened and how you move forward. , are is a police chief former police chief, terrence , who isim -- cunningham president of the international chiefs of police, he came out last fall and give a speech where he apologized on behalf of police officer's who were enforcing laws that were at times discriminatory. , toit was a way, he felt get this conversation started, to spark a conversation where you acknowledge, ok, there is a history here. there is a history, and once we of knowledge that, we can move ford. i talk about that in the book and how we came to the decision to make that controversial speech. and it was. he was hoping it would spark that conversation. maybe it did, we will have to see. charlie: why did you become a

reporter? jeff: well, because like you, it is fascinating to find out what is going on in someone's head. charlie: what makes them tick. jeff: what makes them tick. into search for the facts. right? charlie: you become a tech of innocence. jeff: in a sense, but you just chase the truth. i think our democracy is built on that. we are searching for facts, and that is what is so great about this job. facts --the idea of fake news, you have your facts and we have our facts. jeff: that is a problem i think our country has to grapple with. thanks, charlie. charlie: the book is called "black and blue." thank you for joining us. see you next time. ♪

♪ >> asia-pacific markets face an uncertain day. that, as oil slump drags on energy. curves intoextended 2018. it was hardly unexpected. traders are underwhelmed. president trump slammed traders in public, said they needed to spend more on defense spending. >>