♪ announcer: from our studios in new york city, this is "charlie rose." charlie: we begin this evening with today's shooting in alexandria, virginia. theressman a steve scalise, majority whip for the house of representatives is in critical condition after a gunman opened fire at the congressional baseball practice. people have been hospitalized. president trump confirmed that the shooter, 66-year-old james hodgkinson of illinois, was shot by police. he characterized the attack as a

very, very brutal assault, pledging his full support to the victims and families. scalisep: congressman is a friend in very good friend. he is a patriot and fighter. he will recover from this assault. and the steve, i want you to know, that you have the prayers of not only of the entire city behind you, but of an entire nation and frankly, the entire world. charlie: for the latest, we turned the report from the cbs evening news. policeressman a steve from louisiana, the third ranking republican in the house, is in critical condition tonight after a shooting that has shaken this great capital. but it has also left the capital more unified than it has been in a very long time. [gunshots] the gunman opened fire this

morning on republican members of the house and senate at a ball field in alexandria, virginia, about five miles from capitol hill. they were practicing for tomorrow night's charity game to be played against a team of democrats. four people, including 51 -- the 51 euros congressman, were shot. another police officer is in good condition tonight. two other suffered minor injuries. a gunman, a homeless man angry with the republican party, was fatally shot by the police. we have extensive coverage from a team of correspondence and first we will go to chip green in alexandria. 7:00 a.m., batting practice was wrapping up when the first shots rang out. bystander video captured the sound of bullets piercing the air. congressman chuck fleischmann and others sprinted to the dugout, where he said

they felt like sitting ducks. theoday i experienced carnage, the shots being fired firsthand. it was horrific. >> witnesses say it quickly became a gunshot -- gunfire between the shooter and police. they took cover under a nearby suv. >> dozens of not hundreds of shots fired. it was scary. >> he was having batting practice when it began. >> i heard a loud noise. there was a large piece of metal. then i heard, he has a gun. say the gunmen approached a fence along the third-base line but never got on the field. republican whip steve scalise standing on first base got shot first. sayscal -- say scalise

dragged himself across the field. >> we applied pressure and try to stop the bleeding. reporter: also shot, zachary barth. mika, who used a work on the hill but now for tyson foods. and -- griner and david bailey were also shot. they said it could've been a massacre. >> it could have easily been 25 deaths are more today. and bailey griner prevented that today and my family will be forever grateful. --orter: jeff duncan leave left before began, but believed he met him before he left. the teamed me if

practicing war democrat or republican. , republican. he said thanks, turned around. reporter: they are still trying to process what happened and how to move on. >> what we have to remember is this, the american people are great people. we have great values. represent people every day. four people all, were shot by the assailant. steve scalise is in critical condition. matt mika also in critical condition, he was shot in the chest. officer griner was shot in the ankle and is in good condition. was shot in the leg and is in good condition. they said they will not give in to fear. the annual congressional baseball game will go on as

scheduled. reporter: at least for a day, there was rare unity on capitol hill. force of thehow of capital today. long security lines and armed patrols guarding a shaken congress. [indiscernible] reporter: the shooting prompted applause and partisanship. attack on one of us is an attack on all of us. [applause] reporter: this attack wounded a very well-known member. as majority whip steve scalise is responsible for counting votes and changing minds. a role reserved for those with the power of persuasion. >> he loves this place. i have never seen them in a bad mood. i know he must become a he is human. mostter: unlike scalise, rank-and-file members do not

have security detail. one got this menacing email -- one down, 216 to go. another that is threatened will be arraigned this week. >> when you see the things going on out there, it is like a frog in the water where you turn the water temperature up one degree at a time. ask of of violence and violence are not that far apart. reporter: some members asked whether they could use campaign funds to pay for more protection. claire mccaskill said she is not sure that is the answer. >> i like that i drive to the grocery store and talk to women and men in the produce department about what is going on. reporter: many lawmakers say they need to turn the microscope on themselves, dialing down political rhetoric that has divided the nation. >> i implore all of us to first,r that we are, americans. charlie: joining me now from

washington, congressman chuck fleischmann, he represents the third district of tennessee. he was at the baseball field this morning when the shooting occurred. he will take us to the scene of the tragedy that happened in alexandria, virginia. congressman, thank you. i know it has been a difficult day for you, seeing colleagues shot. set the scene as to the significance of this baseball event. and why so means many people from both republican and the democratic party were coming to play in this game. for fleischmann: charlie, over 100 years, democrats and republicans have played an annual baseball game for charity. when i came to congress seven party,go, i found out my the republican party, had a baseball team, and there was an annual game. every year i have gone out to do that.

it is tremendous, there is bipartisan support for the game. baseball is america's great game and it raises a lot of money for charity. members on both sides of the aisle take it seriously. they can got every day for about a month and a half. it is set for tomorrow and is going to go on as planned. it is very important. was said byit someone this morning, it is important for democracy to say that we will continue, no matter what. rep. fleischmann: you are absolutely right, we cannot let the bad guys win. they are too many bad guys in this country and in the world. but the american people are a great people, a good people. we have great values. the magnitude of what happened to be-- it was horrific there, almost being killed, almost being shot. but we cannot let the bad guys when. baseball is something that brings americans together. let's hope that out of this horrible tragedy our country can

come together. we really do need to come together. charlie: give me the timeline as to what first happened when you heard gunshots. rep. fleischmann: we were close to the conclusion of our practice. i am 54 now. after practice i go in stretch in the outfield. i go -- i went into left field to do push-ups and stretching. as i was walking in, i did not realize, i did not see the shooter was on that side of the field. that is why i feel so fortunate. i would have been an easy for shot for him. as i walked and approached the batting cage, close to home plate, i heard one large boom, a large crack. i did not realize at the time it was a gunshot. it was loud, but there was no sense of alarm at that point in time until 10 seconds later, when the shooter opened up with literally a barrage of gunfire. there could have been 50 or 60

shots. there was chaos on the field. i immediately went right down to the ground until i made a dash a minute or so later because it did not happen in the dugout. i jumped into the dugout. charlie: where was the shooter? ip. fleischmann: as understand it, he was originally on the third base side of the infield, outside the field, outside the fence. as i understand later accounts, he apparently made a move toward the other side of the field, where the capitol police engaged him. our capitol police officers did a great job. unfortunately, two of them were hurt severely. scalise was shot, some other members were shot. it was a horrible day. he must've gone right past me as i was laying face down on the field. thank god he did not shoot me. charlie: did you see congressman sculley's go down? rep. fleischmann: i did not, i

saw congressman scalise on the field, attempting to move. charlie: trying to crawl out of the range of the gunmen -- gunman? rep. fleischmann: i would assume that. congressman scalise is a dear friend. we played nearly every day. he is at that practice, he loved . they got he was there, that is only reasons we had protection from his security detail at the capitol police. if they had not been there that day, we have seen a lot more injured and dead people that day on the field. are called heroes because they only had handguns and they took fire as they to down the gun man. rep. fleischmann: they did. when i made it to the dugout, it was continuing. return fire from the capitol police and it was a welcome sound, knowing something

was being done to deter the gunmen. --gunman. was that the shooter might attempt to come into the dugout. if that were the case, it would've been a disaster because someone was armed in the dugout. massie: this is the 154th shooting. rep. fleischmann: yes. charlie: it is extraordinary. how do we stop this? we. fleischmann: i think have to realize that unfortunately, there are some people in america who are bad people. whether it is there ideology, compelled by radical islam or in this case, this gentleman looks like he was motivated by sadly, hate of republicans. as ave to address this root cause. there are a lot of six people with bad ideas. but we cannot let the bad guys win. bombwill choose a knife, a

, sometimes a gun. i made a resolve today and i talked to a lot of people in the media and outside the media today. a greatican people are people with an outstanding set of values. we go to work, play by the rules, we want our children to be safe and prosper. we are a great nation. we need to resolve to beat the bad guys and not lose our freedoms. second amendment, first amendment. i do not want the bad guys to win. that is why i am going to go item play baseball tomorrow. i will be there. part of me is still little concerned. i am still shipped off. but both teams, republicans and democrats, will go out tomorrow as americans. that is important to send a message. we will not let the bad guys win. charlie: i assume the house speaker and leaders of congress will be there as a show of strength for those playing? rep. fleischmann: absolutely. there will be a tremendous outpouring of support. traditionally, we get 15,000 to

20,000 people at the game. tomorrow i am hoping for 50,000. we have raised over $600,000 for washington, d.c. charities. it is about baseball bringing america together, starting the healing process. i am proud to be a part of it. i will do my best. i am slightly injured, but that is the furthest thing from my mind. charlie: when you through yourself into the dugout? rep. fleischmann: that is correct. sadly, there was blood everywhere. gotands and arms and knees banged up. but it is ok, a lot of people were hurt worse. thank god of the crazy -- the crazy gunman did not shoot me. charlie: asking the fbi, it was later learned the assailant had died at the hospital.

but the fbi is not saying what his motive was yet. we do not know if he was out to kill republicans or democrats are what his motive was, do we? rep. fleischmann: i can only tell you what i know. i spoke with my good friend, congressman jeff duncan, who left the practice earlier than i did. he said he spoke with the gunman and the gunman asked him a simple question -- who is practicing today? are these republicans? obviously, the answer was in the affirmative. it is common for people to come out and want just play. it has always been very safe. so that is a rather innocuous question most of the time. in this case, sadly it is someone with a vendetta of some sort against republicans. sadly, he did attempt and carry it out. we know senator sanders said he was a volunteer in some way in the campaign. although no one remembers him, he was a volunteer in bernie

sanders' campaign. i think he posted that on his facebook. rep. fleischmann: we believe this person had an ideology of hatred. i do not want to blame democrats or anyone else other than the shooter. it is a very important sign that the rhetoric in this country, sometimes it gets so volatile and vile on both sides. sometimes it leads people like this gentleman, who clearly has problems, deranged in some way, to do this, to conduct an act of violence like that. i sincerely hope most americans will realize that despite the differences we have in our great nation, members on both sides of the isle of this country, work hard -- i am a conservative republican, i represent my district, a very conservative district, very well. leaves or america thinks the way i do or my

district does. but we need to come together and unified together. we cannot let the bad guys win. today, a bad guy did some terrible things to members and innocent people. let's hope we can prevent this in the future. charlie: can you tell us what you know about the condition of congressman sculley's? rep. fleischmann: yes, congressman's police is a dear friend of mine, great baseball layer. gets out every day and hustles. he has had two surgeries, he is on the mend. a rapidoping for recovery. there was another gentleman by the name of mika who was shot in the chest. shot in the leg. we are hoping there will be a full recovery made by all of those who were wounded and all injured. officersand the two from the district of columbia, capitol police? rep. fleischmann: outstanding heroes. my heart and thanks goes out. all of america should thank

those capitol police officers. not only were they wounded keeping us safe, they deterred at a time --gunman when no one was present to do that. we were unarmed. carnage and damage would have been worse, but for the heroism of those capitol police officers. they did their job to the level of heroism by virtue of the fact they were injured and wounded in this affect. charlie: congressman chuck fleischmann, thank you for visiting us today. rep. fleischmann: charlie, it is a pleasure. ♪ charlie: sam elliott is here and

we are really pleased about that. his baritone drawl and handlebar mustache are synonymous with a number of films. his career has undergone a transformation, with many roles in sitcoms and indie flicks. his latest film fall -- finds the hillng and over actor confronting mortality. it is called "the hero." it is called a love letter, not just assam, but a dying breed of actor and film in hollywood. here is the -- >> lone star and barbecue sauce, the perfect partner for your chicken. >> perfect, one more. >> lone star barbecue sauce.

>> have you ever heard of the western appreciation guild? they want to give you a lifetime achievement award. >> anything else? a job offer, a script? >> nothing else at the moment. >> dad, what you doing here? >> i guess it has been a while? >> you trying to give me a heart attack? >> are you ok? you seem a little lost? >> the last thing i did i was proud of was 40 years ago. charlotte,rlotte, lee. >> i am trying to figure people out. >> what did you figure out about me? >> not a thing. >> i am such a huge fan. i love your mustache. >> it loves you, too. >> one of the most popular actors of the 1970's, mr. lee

haven. >> i love you, too. i am nothing without all of you. how old are you? >> how old are you? >> 71. it seems a little odd. >> if you have a problem, i will go. >> i got offers, scripps. scripts. >> i want to get past of this. >> you can't just decide to fix things. >> give me a chance. >> i have been playing one part for so many years. >> folders.

-- folgers. charlie: great to have you here. rep. fleischmann: its a turley. haydene: tell me who lee is. rep. fleischmann: an over the hill actor, makes his living as a voiceover actor at this point, known primarily for one film, i hit with the western market. has paid the price along the way. he has lost his connection to his family, he and his wife are separated or divorced, his daughter is on the house with him. no longer works. he smokes too much marijuana and drinks too much. gets a cancer diagnosis right off the top of the movie and spends the bulk of the film, the

mess he has made of it. charlie: obviously not thinking about your mortality, but any parallels here? rep. fleischmann: i think it does in some ways, very much so. there are really four exceptions. i am happily married to catherine, we have been together for 39 years, married for 33. we met on the set of a film called "the legacy." eo is the love of my life, our daughter. i do not have cancer. and i do not smoke a lot of dope. charlie: and your career is in fine shape? i have no idea where it is going. everywhere i go, there is something starring you. mr. elliott: like i said, i have no idea.

i amriding the peak -- i am riding the peak. i am a lucky man. whenie: your father said you told him he wanted to be an actor, he did not think it was the right thing. gave me the proverbial line, you have a snowballs chance in hell. i was 18 when my dad died. charlie: but you went to hollywood. mr. elliott: i did, in spite of his device. charlie: what is it about your voice? mr. elliott: i think it is distinctive. that is the end of it. my mom took me to sing in a cherub choir when i was five years old in sacramento, california. forever involved in vocal

ensembles, singing in a couple bands. i think probably in terms of development, it was key to it. i had advice one time when i came to hollywood looking for an agent. one of the earlier agents encouraged me come as adjusted i go back home and stay in the construction business. but if i was going to stay in hollywood, i should take voice and diction lessons and learn how to speak and get rid of the -- twang. i sound very much like my mother. she was my greatest mentor. charlie: how so? mr. elliott: she encouraged me to pursue the dream. always encouraged me. charlie: never quit? mr. elliott: i never quit it.

i grew up with a rich family. my dad was short-lived, but a solid man's man. his group of peers were solid men's men. i spent a lot of my childhood outdoors with these men. it was a wonderful way to start. charlie: she is in the film? mr. elliott: she is the film. she played the small role of my ex-wife. which was very strange for both of us, on some level. it is always a joy to work with her. charlie: tell me about how the film was created. you were all traveling around together. mr. elliott: we worked on a film together and then traveled a lot through that. we got to be very close.

i told him about myself. he is a very cagey boy from brooklyn. charlie: he was writing it all down. mr. elliott: he and his writing partner, marc basch. it is the high point of my career. it has been almost 49 years. i have no idea why whoever arrived here -- i am happy enough if it and tomorrow, i feel like i am going off on a high note. charlie: why is it a high note? mr. elliott: i think it is a combination of the story, an opportunity to do things i have never done. i have never played an actor before, and i think the commonality of me and this character, lee hayden. that, haley's script,

marc's script, it was the ideal situation. charlie: this is the best time of your life. how do you enjoy it? simply let it wash over you? mr. elliott: as catherine reminded me as i left the house in malibu to come east to do this leg of the press tour, she said, keep it all in perspective. i think that is pretty wise and sage advice. i am just trying to enjoy it and keep in mind that i'm doing what i wanted to do as a child. charlie: how lucky we are. those of us who get to do what we wanted to do. the dream fulfilled. mr. elliott: yeah, and in some way, one might look at it as a frivolous pursuit, in light of the world we are in today, but i just look at it as the

entertainment business. and that is one of the other things that keeps me balanced. it is a wonderful thing to be able to have someone. that is why it means so much to me. i am on every page of it and every scene of it. it is an opportunity for people to come in, have a chuckle, shed a tear, and walk out fulfilled. charlie: beyond the story, as part of this being the leading man? mr. elliott: i have been the leading man before. i have more often been the character act or. and i much prefer being the character actor. charlie: why do you prefer the character actor? mr. elliott: i do not know, it feels like less of a weight, less responsibility. abn the past i felt i was not truly up for it or up to it. charlie: i don't think that. mr. elliott: i don't think that anymore.

charlie: you know you are up to it. mr. elliott: i know after this job that i am up to it. charlie: doing this and what you believe you achieved here, it enhances or confirms your confidence that you can do anything. mr. elliott: i have more confidence now as an actor than i ever had. that is not to say i do not get nervous every time i go on. doing this thing on netflix we , shoot this in front of a live audience. cameras on a friday night and i am a wreck every night. charlie: is it because you worry about your lines? mr. elliott: it is more that than anything. charlie: that never gets easier, does it? mr. elliott: not for me. charlie: you have tricks? mr. elliott: nope. i just practice and keep listening to it and hope it sits at some point. charlie: just keep doing it and doing it and doing it. so, there is a point -- i am not

an actor -- mr. elliott: i have seen you act. [laughter] charlie: and you know why i said i am not an actor. mr. elliott: no, you played yourself. charlie: indeed. mr. elliott: that is not an easy thing to do. charlie: george clooney said "you do the best charlie rose i have ever seen. mr. elliott: ben johnson told me he may not be a very good actor, but nobody can played ben johnson like i can. i have always kept that in mind. charlie: here is what is interesting about you. everyone knows -- if you say sam elliott, they know what that means. that says voice, laconic, integrity, all of those things. mr. elliott: you are very kind to say that. is it true or not? mr. elliott: it is not true that everybody knows, by any stretch. but i would like to think those are true. i know hyatt -- i know i have

got the voice i know i am very , laconic. i would like to think i have got plenty of integrity. charlie: everybody in hollywood knows that if a director says "give me a sam elliott," they know what that mean. mr. elliott: get the guy with the deep voice and the laconic. being glib about it. i guess it is great to be a type, you know? i was typed as a westerner for a long, long time, and i used to bristle at that. but i have made peace with it and i realize that if it were not for that, i probably would not have the career i have had. i certainly would not have been guy,g this lee hayden known for his one western, probably. charlie: what is your one movie? mr. elliott: this one. this one. this is the time. i have a number of favorite films that are dear to my heart, and the thing that makes films

my favorite or not is primarily the people that i work with along the way during the production. i have never had one that i was able to do and work with the people that i worked with. laura prepon, krysten ritter. charlie: a lot of people say to me that one of the things i most like about acting is a film creates a community. there can be fiction in a community. you get to know some people because you are working together for a month, six weeks. mr. elliott: like gypsies. and when it is over, it is over. charlie: when we look back over these films and this life we have been talking about, you don't have,

but desire for greater appreciation of westerns? but you don't have this driving regret about anything? or missed opportunity? mr. elliott: should have, would have, could have is easy for all of us, but i don't know how i could be sitting here talking to charlie rose and wish that i had done something different. [laughter] mr. elliott: i have had a blessed career and i have been very fortunate to do some things i am proud of and things that have touched people, you know? charlie: for me, in a very different life, people will come up to you, not because they know you or you are on a screen somewhere, but because they say "you have made a difference for me in some way. you have helped me learn. you have given me some joy. you helped me understand." mr. elliott: you honored by -- my profession. soldiers. charlie: exactly.

mr. elliott: it is a wonderful thing to be able to do. charlie: i am so happy for you. mr. elliott: thank you so much. charlie: back in a moment. stay with us. ♪ charlie: dexter filkins is here,

a writer for new yorker magazine. his latest feature is a profile of james mattis.

he first met general mattis in 2003 when he was covering iraq for the new york times. the article was published on the heels of president trump's request of a $54 billion increase in defense spending. i am pleased to have my guest -- dexter filkins back on the table. where the hell have you been? writing about james mattis? mr. elliott: yes i followed him , around for a while on a couple of trips that you made to europe. he went to brussels, the headquarters in nato, lithuania to kind of reassure the people in the baltics about the american commitment. charlie: you just said he is a quote machine? [laughter] mr. filkins: it makes my job easier. charlie: let's take "on your one, young shoulders rest of the hopes of mankind. be the hunter, not the hunted. the polite, be professional, but always have a plan to kill everyone you meet." is that why he is called mad dog?

mr. filkins: funny about that nickname, i do not think much cares for it. i asked everybody where it had come from and nobody knew. i think it is a misnomer. it does not really fit him, frankly. he does have this colorful reputation, and his language sometimes is extraordinary and wonderful, but he, you know, he is a marine on one hand, very, very aggressive. on the other hand, he is a very thoughtful, well read student of history. charlie: a kind of scholar. mr. filkins: yeah. what makes them really interesting are those things, the interplay of those two sides of him. charlie: what is his relationship with president trump? mr. filkins: i think it is really good. my sense is that the president has said to mattis and the generals, or more generally, "you guys know what you are doing, go do it."

i think president trump used the phrase, total authorization. what has happened is president obama during the course of eight years took a lot of authority away from the generals, away from the pentagon, into the white house. you want to do that drone strike, we will sign off. that airstrike, come to us. president trump is pushing that authority back down, and secretary mattis is pushing it to his generals in the field, so that is why you have seen since january are real uptick in activity, airstrikes special , forces raids, that kind of thing. generals in the field have more authority to do that. charlie: when did you first meet him? mr. filkins: i remember it very well. it was 2003, during the invasion and general mattis was the head of the first marine division, so he was the head of 25,000 troops. i think he was a two star

general, maybe one star. i was driving in a rental car through iraq, trying to find my way to baghdad, and i happened to be there with the marines one day when this helicopter came down and general mattis got off and i remember he had apparently -- a pair of ray-bans on. and a helmet. even then, on the marines were whispering and looking at him with awe, saying "there is general mattis." if you remember that time, the entire plan of the invasion was speed. go fast. that is what mattis was doing, essentially, going around to his commanders and saying "go, get to baghdad as fast as possible." take the regime down. in retrospect that was his strategy. i am not sure that was the wisest thing. charlie: what was his strategy? mr. filkins: his was to go as fast as possible. he was essentially ordered to do that by secretary rumsfeld and

the bush administration. get to baghdad, take the iraqi regime down. which they did. and of course, you know, chaos. charlie: he is interesting because he seemed to be prepared to say exactly what he thinks, even if it is not what his boss says or even believes. mr. filkins: when you go back and look at the career of general mattis, it is 40 years in the military. you know, it is just, you know, one after the other, these extraordinary things. -- quotations. you read something he said to people and you are like " wow, people in public life don't talk that way." he is standing up and addressing a graduating class at the naval academy and saying "your job is to go out and kill people, and keep killing them until they give up." the midshipmen are all cheering, but who says that?

charlie: they have said he has more integrity in his little finger than almost anyone in washington. it is said by michelle, a woman who was a possible secretary of defense if hillary clinton had won. so she knows generals. mr. filkins: yes. i think what is interesting about michelle is that she is a democrat, a deputy secretary of defense for president obama. charlie: serving under -- mr. filkins: and nonetheless, secretary mattis reached out to her and said "i would like you to be my deputy." she thought very hard about it and i guess she explained to me that she did not sleep for several days felt sick to her , stomach. charlie: which he have liked to work with him? mr. filkins: i think she respects him immensely. i think her dilemma as she spelled it out is that she likes secretary mattis, but was unsure with working in the trump administration.

she told a story where she went to trump tower and said she was interviewed by three people, none of whom had any experience in foreign policy. and one of their first questions was "what would it take for you to resign?" she went back and forth -- back and told secretary mattis, i cannot do this. that is one of the biggest problem secretary mattis has had. something like 57 political appointee jobs in the pentagon, he is only filled two of them. charlie: it is not just defense. mr. filkins: i spoke to a number of people who all said the same thing. "i love secretary mattis, but i cannot work for the trump administration." charlie: another says mattis once to win, he wants victory, he wants to kick ass. we are getting this profile of a guy who is tough. mr. filkins: really aggressive. charlie: very aggressive, wants to win. does not want anything to get in the way. mr. filkins: that is right. charlie: his definition of

national security? mr. filkins: i think it raises inevitably this question which i try to discuss in my piece, which is where is that going? aggressiveness to what end? and i think when you look at -- we are at war in five countries in the middle east and all of them are kind of the same in the sense that you have -- charlie: iraq, afghanistan, yemen -- mr. filkins: somalia, syria. they are all kind of the same in the sense of these weak states and you have all these, essentially, nongovernment groups that are challenging the state or fighting in some other way. and how do you end those conflicts? how do you end them? that is the real conundrum that the obama administration faced, that the bush administration faced. no one has been able to sufficiently answer that. charlie: maybe you are speaking to that in that answer.

what you say to people who say there are too many generals around? mr. filkins: it is a good point. i think the danger -- charlie: mcmasters is the national security adviser. mr. filkins: i think that the danger is that the foreign policy of the united states is relying excessively on force, the use of force, and violence, and not enough on diplomacy. charlie: and other tools. mr. filkins: ultimately, wars end. either you annihilate your opponent or reach a political settlement. you cannot kill them all. they are being born every day, so you have got to reach an agreement that is satisfactory to them so that they go home. and no one has been able to figure it out. charlie: why did he take the job? mr. filkins: that one is real simple.

i think he is a patriotic american, so when the president of the united states calls you, you salute and say yes. charlie: yes sir. mr. filkins: he was certainly careful. charlie: the other thing you do is make clear to the president you are serving that this is who you are getting, so let's understand. i am not going to do what i do not believe in, toe the line for you if i do not think it is the right thing for america. mr. filkins: he made that very clear. he was asked if he got an illegal order, he said "i would fishing on the columbia river within a couple of days." [laughter] charlie: he uses such great and simple language. history is clear. nations with strong allies thrive. and those without them, whither. mr. filkins: he said that at his senate confirmation. that is a very subtle rebuke of

his boss. president trump, who declared during the campaign that nato , the most successful military alliance in history is , obsolete. maybe we will not come to the defense of our european partners. i think if you speak , to people like michelle, that -- they will say that is the hope of mattis, that he will act as a brake on president trump's impulses. charlie: what he has today is bipartisan support in terms of people who speak out. and they say they have great confidence, even though they may be questioning the trump administration in one way or the other, including the white house. they do say they have great confidence in general mcmasters and general mattis. mr. filkins: i think that -- i started this story thinking -- i started with that assumption, which is, you know, secretary mattis is kind of the anti-trump, right?

he is sober, well read, very measured, experienced. he has seen war. and that will act as a kind of counterweight to the kind of, you know, chaos in the white house and trump's impulses. i am not sure that is quite -- i think that is true to a certain extent, but not the full story. i think what president trump has done, he has given secretary mattis a lot of authority to carry out military strikes on his owner at the discretion of his generals. that is a slightly different picture. trump has turned to mattis and said "you do it. do what you need to do." secretary mattis is a marine, so, you know, that is a green light for him to go after the bad guys. charlie: he described his philosophy by adapting and added -- an adage attributed to the roman general lucius cordelius, "no better friend, no worse enemy."

mr. filkins: that sums it up pretty well. charlie: in need of no better friend than no worse enemy. mr. filkins: it certainly sums up mattis' experience in iraq, where he served two tours. it was a chaotic and horrendous time in iraq. he was there in 2003, 2004. general mattis, now secretary --tis, clear on this point we will not win just by killing everybody killing all the bad , guys. it is not how we are going to get out of this thing. we have to make friends. that is the only way you can win a fight like this. i think he was very clear-eyed about that and away a lot of generals were not. charlie: if you have read

angela's ashes, desmond tutu's -- and in south africa following the civil war as you are if you have read sherman. mr. filkins: obviously. [laughter] mr. filkins: think about that. he was talking in an interview he gave -- charlie: how could this be? this is a guy who understands classics. mr. filkins: that is the thing. charlie: and sherman, which was to destroy everything. mr. filkins: burn everything. he was giving an interview to a marine, to an official historian, and he was talking about counterinsurgency. there he is, quoting, you know, from angela's ashes, a story about ireland. and south africa, desmond tutu. he is all over the place. that is what is so interesting about him, because he is so well read. and everybody that i who knew him said, i wish

you could see his library. charlie: more books than any general that ever served in america. [laughter] mr. filkins: yes. this is a deeply educated secretary of defense. charlie: having been with the guy, having listened to his quotes, having had many conversations with him, what influence is he going to have? mr. filkins: a lot. i mean, a lot. charlie: how will america be -- his defense posture and place be different, because he is our secretary of defense? mr. filkins: he is very aggressive. he is a general. i think he reaches for his gun, and i think that is -- if you talk to people around him, they will say "what we are doing is reestablishing the american deterrent." if you mess with us, you're going to pay a price. in their criticism of president obama, they would say basically, he was too soft with our enemies and thereby encouraged our

enemies like russia, like north korea. but i think, you know, if you look at the horizon, it is the craziest international environment we have ever seen. it is the middle east, north korea, russia, eastern europe. where is it going to blow up next? i think the real concern here is not so much mattis, but it is mattis by himself, without a state department that is very vigorous or a secretary of state and is very vigorous, without diplomacy, without politics. is that how you run a foreign policy? charlie: thank you, dexter. mr. filkins: thank you. charlie: dexter filkins from new york magazine. thank you. see you next time. ♪

>> i am alisa parenti from washington and you are watching "bloomberg technology." house majority congressman steve scalise remains hospitalized in critical condition after yesterday shooting. he was hit in the hip and said to have sustained serious injuries. jamesooter, 66-year-old hodgkinson from illinois, was killed by police. the senate voted to increase sanctions on russia and iran and give congress the power to review attempts by the president to lift to that. lawmakers say the fresh sanctions are in response to russian involvement in the election. and, iran's ballistic missile program. they voted to add nonbinding