♪ >> from our studios in new york city, this is "charlie rose." jeff: good evening, charlie is away. i'm jeff glory of cbs news. we begin with health care. senate republican leaders released a 142 page bill this morning detailing plans to repeal and replace the affordable care act, or obamacare. the legislation was crafted in secret makes significant cuts to medicaid and removes the mandate that all americans need to have health insurance. it is considered more moderate than last month's health bill -- house bill which president , trump called "mean." a vote is expected on the senate

floor next week. joining me is van newkirk and kevin whitelaw, and philip bump. i'm pleased to welcome them all. philip, let me start with you. what stands out? philip: republicans are putting together something they feel confident can pass and get the general support of the american public, this bill is not substantially different enough from the house bill to change the minds of a lot of americans. a lot of parts of the bill, particularly around medicaid and cutting taxes for the wealthy, those are the most problematic parts. jeff: that is an interesting point. there was some talk the senate bill might be completely different. they would just throw everything out and start over, and that is not the case. vann: that is not the case. it looks like the broad strokes are about the same as the house bill. there are a few changes to the premium tax credit and medicaid, but when we see the cbo score

next week, it won't be that different from the house bill. jeff: kevin, when we do see that cbo score, how many americans are we anticipating will be losing? what was the number before, it was 23? kevin: 23 million in the last version. that was of the last health will past -- house bill passed. senate leaders are hoping it will keep more americans insured overtime. it is hard to see what the funding choices they have made that it will be substantially different, however, particularly given the way the medicaid phaseout works. it is longer, but it still phases out. they probably are not going to see and and or miss improvement. jeff: kevin, let's talk about the main points. we talked about the individual mandate that would be gone, and the employer mandate and the medicaid cuts. kevin: a lot of that is the same. there's a slightly longer transition time, so you are

seeing a bit of softening, which is bringing some -- aimed at ringing moderates on, but there are changes that are aimed at keeping conservatives on board, including changes that would slow the growth rate for medicaid. so far, it hasn't been enough to bring people on board. we have four republican senators, conservatives, saying they are not ready to support this and they will negotiate as a team to try and bring it closer to a fuller repeal of obamacare. jeff: philip, this is paul, lee, cruz, and johnson. philip: that is right. several of the most conservative members of the senate republican caucus there area one can only anticipate as to what to their objections will be. it is sort of vague at this point why they oppose the bill, but part of it is this is a bill that will be very contentious. i think putting your foot out there at this point and saying you oppose the bill as it stands now gives you leverage with mitch mcconnell to make changes

to the bill, but also give you some cover politically. this will be a tough fight. mcconnell has very little wiggle room to get it passed. i think this is why the senators came out as soon as they could to say, you need to negotiate with us to get something done. jeff: i thought it was interesting, sarah huckabee sanders in the unusual press briefing this afternoon, audio only, said the president was more concerned about getting it done than the timing. vann: i think it sends a signal. president trump was sending signals that he thought it was too mean, it does not cover enough people. i think it is sending some signal that maybe the senate should work something out. these objections from the four senators, i'm not sure how much it would drag the process on. we had some pretty strong objections early in the house,

and they were solved by some -- the amendments were not substantial in the outcome and the overall score of the bill. jeff: tactically, what is mitch mcconnell thinking right now? philip: he is playing his cards close to his chest, which we saw in the drafting of this bill. my hunch is they want to be able to say, we have a new bill, this is different from the thing everyone in america hates. continuing today, polling shows that less than 20% approves of the house bill. they are hoping to move this fast enough before people can get a sense of what is in the bill and the way it is similar to the house bill. they will give it a different name and move it on a fast timeline. that alone is one reason why they may not heed president trump's advice to take the time with it. they don't want people to get active against it. jeff: it is not just the four republicans who have made this statement today. it is other senators who have already taken at least some

issue with it, including folks like dean heller of nevada. philip: he has serious concerns . he is in a difficult position. we have seen moderate republicans like susan collins of maine they have problems with , some of the planned parenthood language, but we also have problems with the medicaid provisions. rob portman of ohio has had some problems with it. there are a number of people -- and keep in mind this is a bill that was drafted in secret and kept secret from the members of the health care working group that mitch mcconnell formed to draft it. even those members said they did not see it until today. jeff: you mentioned planned parenthood. they're taking the approach of defunding it for just one year. kevin: that is the same approach as the house bill. some of that is just for budgetary reasons and mechanical reasons for the bill. there are other provisions they are trying to deny, any kind of

funding for abortions. there might be problems with those provisions. one of the main cautions of this bill is that this is a discussion draft, things will change. some will change for parliamentary reasons and others will change for negotiating reasons. look out for this, there are probably some strategic omissions so that members can be seen winning provisions and give them an excuse to get on board in a final vote. jeff: indeed, the mitch mcconnell tactician part comes into play. susan collins got a lot of talk as this process played out. where does she figure now? philip: she expressed reservations earlier. she is from maine. she is someone seen as a moderate, more in the middle. the two most interesting senators are heller and flake. both of them are up for reelection next year this will , weigh heavily as voters go to the polls, how people look at this health care legislation.

susan collins does not have to worry about that for the short term. heller and flake do. jeff: what should we be looking for as we lead up to july 4? do you think the current timeline that mitch mcconnell is on is realistic? vann: i think we have to wait for the cbo score. the cbo announced today they hope to get it back next week. i think that will determine the speed of the rest of the process. folks like collins, those moderate republicans, they are looking for the number of uninsured to go below 20 million. by 2026, an increase over obamacare. if that number comes under 20 million, i think the process will be quick. i think some of the more conservative republicans will be swayed by minor amendments like increases in the state grant for reinsurance. it depends on that score. when the score comes out, and it looks similar to the house version, it might take longer than they are aiming for.

jeff: kevin, is the secrecy part of the debate, is that part over? obviously, they have released it. this approach got criticism. it has worked in the past and both sides have done it. in your estimation, how does that part of it, the way the bill was developed, how does that play into how this is debated next week? kevin: the secrecy is amazing. i don't think we seen anything quite like this, to take something from total secrecy to passage for something this major and significant in this short of a time. it will give senators pause. you can tell they have been tentative in their reactions. they don't want to say anything, they don't know what is in it. one of them, hours after it was released, did not even realize

there was text today. there's a lot of confusion trying to process this information. they will not have a lot to work on, but they will have a cbo score. and unlike the house, the senate actually has to wait for that. they will at least have that one piece of information. when the house took its vote on the earlier version, they do not have a cbo score in the final text. the score came out later and it was somewhat difficult for a lot of them politically. i think they will have some information, but there is also the concern something else will come out later that people do not realize they were voting for. jeff: senator schumer called this a wolf in sheep's clothing. what he's trying to say is that he thinks it might not be so bad to begin with, but it gets even worse. vann: i think he is referring to the medicaid provision. it is similar to the house's medicaid provision where they roll back some of the medicaid expansion and phase out funding

and change the way the base program is funded over 10 years. they change it from an open ended funding structure to what is called a per capita cap. that is the same as the house bill, but what the senate bill does is after 2025 it changes the inflationary index on the per capita cap, which means they grow less over time then what we expect in the house bill. that means you get a couple hundred billion dollars less funding over the following 10 years, which means fewer people get covered and there are fewer covered services. jeff: philip, who stands to lose and who stands to win from this? philip: in the broadest strokes, this looks a lot like the house bill. in the sense that those people who rely on medicaid coverage, there will be cuts, that is mostly poor americans and disabled americans. those that benefited from the taxes from obamacare they keep the cost down over time.

that was the whole point of the affordable care act, tax wealthier people so less wealthy people could actually have insurance. wealthy people see those taxes remove and will benefit from this as well. it is really not clear where the folks in middle, and there are a lot of them, how this will affect them over the long-term. things like people who have an lawyer coverage, there acting reports about people who get coverage -- employer coverage, there are conflicting reports about people who get coverage from their work about how it , will affect them. in broad strokes, i think the complaints prior to today still exist today. i think from a political standpoint that is problematic. jeff: kevin, the president has said he thinks negotiations are necessary here, which is an understatement. but something will get done. kevin: he has maintained that all along. he was able, he and his people, were able to keep the negotiation going in the house when a lot of people thought the bill was basically dead, they were able to push the thing through. i think they have faith in their ability to push something through in the senate.

i'm not sure they have quite the same pull in the senate. what you do have here is senators are feeling a ton of pressure from their constituents. as unpopular as the bill is, they have been promising to repeal this obamacare law for seven years. when it comes down to it, mitch mcconnell's calculation is you put the bill on the floor have a , final passage vote, and you say i dare you to vote against something that you have been running on for seven years. jeff: thank you all for joining us. >> thank you. ♪

♪ jeff: jack ma is the executive chairman of the alibaba group. it is the largest e-commerce company in china and was ranked by forbes as the sixth largest retailer in the world. in january, ma met with then president-elect trump and promised to create one million jobs through his e-commerce platform. charlie sat down with him at a conference, gateway 17. the alibaba sponsored event was an opportunity for u.s. small business owners and entrepreneurs to learn more about the chinese company. here is the conversation. charlie: what brings you to detroit? jack: small business entrepreneurs.

i have been expecting this day for a long time. when i started my business, i tried to sell my products, ideas, to the outside world. i have a lot of friends doing import and export. they are all small business. 10 years ago, they could not have done it. they didn't have money, they did not have this, they did not have that. i said, someday, i hope alibaba could build up a platform that all of the small business can sell across the board easily, efficiently, and cheaply. after 10 years, things like that, we have just started. charlie: you hope they take away from this meeting an idea that there is a huge market in china? jack: yes. charlie: and people who want to buy what they sell? jack: yes.

i hope, as i say, in the past 30 years, u.s. domestic consumption was the engine of global economy. i told people at that time, if you missed the opportunity of selling your products to the world, to the usa, to the europe, you may miss the chance. today, i want to tell the people that if you miss the opportunity of selling a product to china, you will mis\s the -- miss the opportunity and you will miss the future. charlie: tell me about the encounter with the internet when you first saw it. jack: i went to seattle and a friend of mine had a small office with four or five computers. i had never touched a computer in my life before, because a computer was so expensive to me, and so complicated. my friend said, this is the internet.

just type in whatever word, i don't know which one to do. even now, i don't know how a computer works. [laughter] jack: he said jack, it is not a bomb, type whatever. the first word i typed was beer. i don't know why i typed "beer"" i found american beer, german beer, no china beer. so i typed "china." there was no information about china. i said, what if we can put china information on the internet, let people know about china. that was the idea. i came back to china and said i want to resign from my school. charlie: you were a teacher. jack: i was a teacher. i was teaching in the university for six years. i said, i want to do it. i invited 24 friends to my apartment. after two hours of explaining what i am going to do on the internet, 23 of them say forget it.

[laughter] jack: they said, this will never work because there's no such thing called the internet in the world. you know nothing about computers, why would you want to do this? only one people, he said jack, if you want to try this, just try it. if there's something wrong, come back. after a whole night thinking, i said, i still want to do it. because most of the people they have a fantasy ideas in the evening, but when they wake up in the morning, they go back to the same job. we have to do something different. from there, i borrowed from my relatives and friends. that was my trip, i called myself like a blind man riding on the back of blind tigers. [laughter] jack: those people who are

experts at riding horses, they all fall down and i am still surviving. [laughter] charlie: was that the beginning of alibaba? jack: no is the beginning of china pages. alibaba was in 1999. since then, i have failed almost every project. never survived. 1995, i got an idea. if china will join wto, a lot of china's products will sell across the board. if i could make a site that will help china's products selling outside and help the small businesses in the other countries sell to the other part of the world. that was the concept. 1999. i started alibaba in my apartment. charlie: you have said to me before also that in your mind, 1, 2 and 3 are customer, employee, and shareholder. when you borrowed that $2000, you did not tell that person he was number three. [laughter]

jack: the $2000 was from my relatives, parents, and all of the friends i got. i got $2000. when i raised the money for my ipo, even when alibaba was in the new york stock exchange, we raise $20 billion. i told the investors, we have been believing that customer is number one, employee number two, and shareholder number three. people said this is against the american investor philosophy. i remember one of the investors said, jack, if i know shareholder is number three, i would not have bought my stocks. i said, sir, please it sell it. [laughter] jack: i believe there is so much money in the world, but we only need the money that believes in our vision and mission. i believe that if the customer

is happy, employees are happy the shareholders will be happy. , if the shareholders are happy, not necessarily the customers are happy and not necessarily the employees will be happy. [applause] charlie: how important are two things, trust and culture? jack: trust is the most important thing, as we discussed a few minutes ago. if people give me, when i have no money, because when alibaba started, 18 founders in my apartment. i told everybody, put all your money, your savings on the table. for ten months. leaving the money for food and rent. the money put on the table, i want to gather the money, and no

one should borrow from parents or friends because i don't want to make your parents and friends bankrupt doing alibaba. 18 people gathered $50,000. u.s. dollars. we started alibaba in my apartment. none of us had money. if somebody said, i will give you $1 million and i give you trust, which would i choose? i would choose those who give me trust. because it is the trust that makes us be united. it is trust, i think 18 founders, they trusted me. because they trusted me, i have to be very loyal to them and loyal to the mission that we have. i think a lot of entrepreneurs, they know i hate people to work for me, i want people to for the

mission we agreed on together. people like me, we look further. when you look at this guy, he looks handsome. you get closer, not necessarily. privity in the world is the same. -- everybody in the world is the same. you think jack is great, if you get closer, not necessarily. i will be angry, unhappy, -- but when people trust in you, that is the most valuable thing. later, when we got venture capitalists investing in us, the thing they noticed was that my team trusts me and i trust my teams. so, this is the trust. the other is about a culture. i think the knowledge-based, if you want smart people to work for you, the smart people need to be managed with culture, not rules and laws.

in our company, we spent most of our time about the culture. the base of that culture is trust. this is what we believe. charlie: china has changed. think back in 1995, how has it changed between 1999 when you started alibaba and today in 2017? jack: when i went back to china in 1995, the idea of the internet was very strange. china was not connected to the internet. i tried to talk to a lot of my friends about what is the internet. they thought it would never work. this thing would never exist. it was true, people even said, jack, it is a lie. jack is trying to steal money from people by telling us there is the internet.

[laughter] jack: when i go to the china company registration office, i said i want to register a company called hands of hope internet company. the guy said, this is the english dictionary. there is no word called the internet. why do you want to register a company called that? i cannot register a company name. in 1995, in later august, china was connected to the internet. i was number seven person connected to the china internet. in order to prove i was not a liar, i invited my friend who is a tv man, take the tv camera, they stay in my home, and they tried to take a picture. i connected to the internet and

it took us three hours and a half to download the first page. [laughter] jack: at that time, there was no netscape. called "the mosaic." i had to make 100 start to make my journalist friend to wait and prove i was not lying. charlie: how big is alibaba today? jack: from 1999, we have 18 founders and now we have close to 60,000 people. our sales, last year, over $550 billion u.s. it is just the beginning, we will probably cross $1 trillion u.s. in three years. charlie: in 2020? [applause] jack: yes, 2020. that is the 20-year anniversary.

the anniversary of alibaba. this thing does not happen in 18 days or 20 days. when we started, year 2003, we launched. it was funny we got seven , founders for taobao. i said everybody go home you'd look for things on the website. look for four things to sell. we all go home, we will see how many things we can sell. we went home, we could not find 4 things in the home we could sell because we were too poor. we gather 21 products and listed it on a website and waited for three days. nobody came to buy. the next week, we started to buy and sell ourselves. [laughter] jack: for the first week, all the sales were ourselves.

a week later, somebody started to test and sell. for almost 30 days, everything people sell we buy. we had a house of rubbish we bought online. [laughter] jack: trying to make sure that those guys who sold, they were able to say, this thing can sell things. then people came to sell, and it was served better. then to now, $500 billion. charlie: market cap is what? jack: $350 billion? something like that. ♪

♪ charlie: some people, when they think about getting on the internet and trying to reach foreign markets, whether it is china, india, or somewhere else, worry about counterfeiting and worry about fake products under selling them. how do you deal with that? how do you reassure them? jack: like any entrepreneur, when you start a business, you start to worry, and the people around you worry much more than you do. when i started alibaba, my parents worried, my wife

worried, my students worried, everybody worried. they worried about a lot of things. the only thing i worried about is that i should not disappoint the people who believe in me. when we started alibaba, we had a lot of people said hey, if you don't have trust, people do not believe online. they believe face to face meeting. the government does not support internet, nobody is supporting e-commerce, how could you do it? i think, as an entrepreneur, if everything is ready, that does not need you. because nothing is ready, that needs entrepreneurship. counterfeit things, of course, there are a lot at the beginning, but you have to fix it. in the past 15 years, we have spent a lot of time because you

have to make sure the customers are happy, the brands are happy. charlie: the reputation. jack: the reputation. otherwise people say i sold on the site and my things were copied and stolen. we are using a lot of ways to do that. today, more than 100,000 brands partner with us. we are the company online today, the leader of counterfeit and ip protection. we know there are three things that would make our site die, three things that would be the cancer of our business, counterfeit, ip, and cheating. a lot of things to worry about in doing business. we also worry that people cannot receive money. if you sell things, if you cannot receive the money, you will be cheated.

so we are using alipay, and all the ways we do to make sure that sme can easily sell and receive the money. and customer service is good. charlie: when you created alibaba, there were three things you said about it. i want to talk about the comparison to amazon. you said it will be asset light, it will be a platform and not a retailer, a difference from amazon. and you said it would play on the world stage. why did you decide to go that direction? a transactional company. jack: i think the difference -- amazon is a great company. they did a fantastic job in america and the world, but they are an e-commerce company. we are not an e-commerce company. we help others to become e-commerce. we believe every company can be amazon. we tried to empower the small business, a marketplace where they can reach their customers.

we tried to empower companies with logistics so they can deliver quickly and it is cost-effective. we try to empower small business, when they do e-commerce, they can easily receive the money. this is our bet. we know this company -- we made so much money in the past years, but we think this is all because of small business and the money we make, we want to assure that we want to build up an infrastructure of commerce. going global is important. we should help not only china's company, we should help the global companies. alibaba comes to america, our ceo today is in europe and we have a lot of colleagues in southeast asia. we are not globalizing alibaba, we are globalizing e-commerce.

we are trying to make sure e-commerce, the infrastructure, the payment, the marketplaces, and the logistics can make sure anybody today can compete with amazon, microsoft, ibm. this is what we want. charlie: where you see alibaba going over the next 10 years? you are already in hollywood. jack: yep. charlie: you are in the cloud. you are doing things beyond the transactional basis of your business. jack: we are doing business, we go from marketplaces to payment to logistic and cloud, not because we think there is money there. we believe -- when we do the marketplaces, if we don't have the payment solutions, our customers cannot do transactions. with the payment, if we don't have logistics, they cannot

finish the transactions. when we have a lot of transactions and we don't have cloud computing, the cost of i.t. for our customers is too expensive. we do all of these things not because we think there is money there, because we know if we don't do them, our customer cannot finish their job. our mission is helping doing business easier. our company must be a mission and vision-driven. why are we in hollywood, entertainment? because we think 10 or 20 years later, we have to know one thing, the world, no matter how rich you are, you want -- no matter how successful or unsuccessful you are, the most important thing is happy and healthy. we call it the double h strategy. charlie: healthy and happy? jack: yeah. in the next 10 years, we are very confident about everything we are doing.

our marketplaces and e-commerce will keep growing. our financing will keep growing. logistics will keep growing. cloud computing will keep growing. when we have that much money, how can we help the small business when they do business? the small businesses are happier and healthier. that is why -- we do not think we are a company. we think we are an economy. charlie: alibaba is an economy. the size of argentina's economy. jack: our gmb last year, $550 billion is almost like argentina. we are ranking number 21 country gdp-wise. in the next three years, we will go across $1 trillion. we hope in 20 years, by year 2036, we will be the fifth

largest economy of the world. that is america, china, europe, japan, and our economy. we believe that economy -- there will be a virtual economy that every small business of the world can leverage that economy. they can sell products across the world. every consumer of every country, they can buy things through their mobile phone or any device all over the world. when they place an order online, within 72 hours, they will receive it. this is our vision. of course, alibaba does not own that economy. we want to join the force with all the customers to build that economy. charlie: it has never crossed your mind that we should own a lot of assets?

that we should have an inventory. that we should engage somehow beyond what we do in terms of making things? jack: no, i think whether we should have inventory or not depends on whether our customers need it. if our customers say, jack, you should build more warehouses, we will build more warehouses. if our customers don't have the ability to do something, we will do it. we do it not because there is money, we do it because it is necessary. charlie: do your competitors primarily come from china? tencent and the others? jack: i think -- charlie: who do you see as your competitor? jack: who do i see as a competitor? i don't know. [laughter] jack: i don't know. in the way we are competing with tencent here, amazon there. to me, i think it is too early. in the next 30 years, e-commerce will change the world.

i have been saying this to my team when we were in the apartment. i said, guys, in the next 10 years, in the future, alibaba will be the top 10 websites of the world. my founders looked at me and said, what does number 10 mean? today we are ranked like 500 million. you have to believe it. i told the team, internet is like a 10,000 meters running racing. we just finished the first 100 meters. do not think the people beside you is a competitor. run for another 3000 meters, then you know who is a competitor. we are good today, we may not be good if we lose our hope and vision. charlie: you lose your culture. jack: if we lose our culture and team, we are nothing.

most of the companies were so good. netscape, we never thought it would disappear. yahoo! was good, we never thought it would be like today. don't believe you will be good all the time. be paranoid. [laughter] charlie: what was it andy grove said? only the paranoid survive. jack: i think it is honest as an entrepreneur, do not think your neighbor, tom, is a competitor. the thing you do is do not focus your eyes on the competitor. you are too small to focus on your neighbor. you are too small to focus yourself on your neighbor or competitor. focus on your customers, make your customer happy. most of the big companies, when they talk, they talk about competitors. my suggestion one day going you guys when you become bigger, most of the american companies, internet companies, they failed

in china. one of the reasons is that they spend too much time making their boss happy rather than their customer happy. they spend too much time on competing, not on long-term strategy. so as the entrepreneur, the always number one priority is customer and employee. charlie: what is your role at the company? you have given up the ceo position to michael evans. you are still the face of alibaba. you are traveling the globe all the time preaching the alibaba story. you are the visionary, the one who thinks about where alibaba might be. how do you define your role today?

jack: i have three things to do. when i retired from the ceo position, i told my teams, i promise when i am chairman -- i am still learning to be a chairman. i thought when i became a chairman when the company was big i would have more time to play golf on the beaches. oh my gosh. 870 hours last year, this year, 1000 hours. three things, the first thing is i will make sure our company is a mission driven company. charlie: mission. jack: mission and vision driven company. we have to make sure the whole company is believing we are building an economy that can empower every small business. young people, women, they can easily do business through the internet. this is number one. i'm talking to everybody, everybody in the company i meet. i remember there is a guy and early days when i came to

america i talked about the internet and the value mission of the company. this guy was sitting there. he was working for a fortune 500, he said, jack is a crazy guy. how could you -- a company has no business model, no money and talks about mission, vision, value. i said, come to my company. he came to china, spent three days in my company, when he left, he said, jack, i thought you were crazy, now i found 100 crazy guys in your company. [laughter] jack: they all talk and think like you. a company, if you have 100 crazy guys, we do not think we are crazy, we think the outside world is crazy. [laughter] jack: this is very important. also, i think for the first

three years of alibaba, we had no revenue. no business model. i told the team, forget about the money revenue today. if you want to be a long-term company, the only thing to think about is customers. three years of alibaba, we had the best revenue for our best -- one or two years is what? first the email of thanks. that is the best revenue. if the customer sends you an email saying you are great, i was so happy. in the early days, when i would go to a restaurant, people would pay my bill with a small note that says, jack, thank you very much. i know you do not make a lot of money, but we made money through your website. [laughter] charlie: yeah. jack: i like that. even today i have a lot of customers that pay me something. not a bribery, but there is a boy in a hotel, he says jack, thank you so much, my wife makes more money than me on your site.

this is the best and i want to keep this culture going in the company. the second thing is culture. the people and culture are the second thing. and the third is building a healthy environment. charlie: so jack ma does not worry about a damn thing? jack: i have a lot of things to worry about. charlie: so what do you worry about? jack: i worry about the company. we have a big vision, but we may disappear and 3, 4 years. charlie: because you might be disrupted by something that you cannot imagine today? jack: the world changes so fast. i worry a lot. artificial intelligence may take a lot of jobs away. i am worried if we do not move fast enough, if we do not innovate enough, and we do not spend enough time giving simple, easy products, for small business, most of small business cannot survive 10 years. if the small business cannot survive, we cannot survive. charlie: what does small

business need to survive? jack: i would say in the next 10 to 20 years, the small business, no matter where you are, if you do not try to globalize your business through the internet, you might not have a business opportunity. it is not like oh, i do local. local business in the future will be more and more competitive. think about how can you sell products across the border? your product, your chocolate, people in your village already know about that. but people in china, they don't know about it, they might love these things. think about how you can sell your products across the board. charlie: you gave a speech in which you talked about warning for decades of pain unless you recognize the coming advent of artificial intelligence, robots, and the whole range of things that could challenge how you

have been doing business in the past. you also have mentioned retirement. jack: yep. charlie: jack ma at what? 50 something? thinking about retiring? jack: yeah i am preparing. , charlie: but you have been preparing since you were 40. jack: when i left university, i was 30 years old. my president of my university said, jack, one day you want to come back anytime you are welcome. i said, president, i will not come back in 10 years. i thought when i am 40, i can go back to teach. when i was 40, life was so tough. my company was almost in big trouble. i said, i should not leave. i said when i am 45, i should retire. when i am 45, i cannot stop it. then i start to prepare and people say, jack, you are the

next bill gates. i said, i cannot compete with bill gates. i said i can compete with a bill gates who can retire earlier. [laughter] jack: and i can compete with a bill gates that can empower more small business. in the year 2012, i retired from ceo. i have my own goal that i will retire from ceo. i have my own goal that i will retire from chairman someday and i am preparing that. i don't want to die on my office, i want to die on the beaches. [laughter] [applause] charlie: wait, no, wait. how much time do you spend on the beaches now? jack: i don't have time for the beaches now. that's why i dream about it. remember, when we were young, nobody give us a chance. now we are big.

we should give young people a chance. young people do a much better job than we do. this is what i think. [applause] jack: and i think the world to me -- can be great, can be prosperous without you. when you die, people cry for three days, maybe less, and they forget you. [laughter] jack: so, you have a good system for your team. it gives them a chance. charlie: it strikes me tonight and since i have known you, part of you is always a teacher. i mean, you are teaching tonight, telling about my experiences and what you can learn from the journey i have taken. the idea of sharing experiences is part of teaching. jack: yes. i was trained to be a teacher. i benefit because i do not know anything about technology and computing. i still puzzle about how stuff

can work and i don't know about accounting, marketing. i know very little about that. but the thing i learned from being a teacher, that a teacher always wants his students to be more successful and better than you are. i learned to be a good ceo. when i hire people, i always want to hire people that are smarter than i am. today, i give a lot of advice to my colleagues. when they hire people, there is one judge. look at the young man. if you think he will be your boss in five years, hire him. do not hire people who will follow you all the time. as a teacher, you wonder if the student will become a banker, this is a scientist, this is a mayor. you don't want a student who is

bankrupt and in jail. [laughter] jack: so you know, this is the way i benefit. when i became the ceo i called myself chief education officer. i love to talk. i love to share. as a teacher, you may not know a lot of things. the only things you learn is you share. people may not like the way i talk, and my job is not to make people happy. my job is to make people think. this is the way we did it. if it is helpful for you, take it. if it is not helpful, forget it. i love to be with the entrepreneurs because you guys remind me of the past 18 tough years we have got. i believe one thing.

i give my advice to all of you. as an entrepreneur, today it is very difficult and tomorrow is even more difficult. but the day after tomorrow is very beautiful. most people die tomorrow evening. [laughter] jack: you have to work hard, you have to learn, you have to rely on your team. that is good business. i like to be a teacher. charlie: i was going to ask you about legacy, but i'm not going to ask you about legacy because i think you summed it up. it was a great pleasure to be here with you. jack ma, thank you. jack: thank you. [applause] ♪

>> from new york city, i'm jonathan ferro, this is bloomberg real yield. >> expectations and stressing balance sheets of energy companies. the reflation trade continues to break down. the treasury curve is the flattest since 2007. and credit investors put their foot down after companies get greedy, looking for even lower yields. we start with a big issue -- inflation expectations continue to break down, weighing on a yield curve.