♪ >> from our studios in new york city, this is "charlie rose." charlie: graham allison is a professor at the kennedy school at harvard and the author of "destined for war: can america and china escape thucydides's trap?" he examines the potential for conflict as china threatens to displace america on the world stage. i'm pleased to have graham allison. welcome. graham: thank you for having me. charlie: when did you first decide this was a subject that needed attention? ago,m: probably a decade

henry kissinger, my old professor at harvard, and i was writing a book which i published three, four years ago. these are i think two strategic lights of our lifetime. about thereminding me soviet union and nuclear weapons, think about china. i started studying china about 10 years ago and five years i -- five years ago i stumbled on this idea. when a rising power threatens to displace a ruling power, bad things happen. and that as a lens helps you look through the daily noise and news to see a primary dynamic here and helps us recognize the dangers that are inherent in such a situation. charlie: it is as timely as today. this is "the financial times" from today.

there is a picture of xi jinping. it says china's president makes his way to the podium in the great hall of the people in beijing to deliver an hour-long speech that warned that china's neighbors that the country would not tolerate any infringement of its territory. warned that china would not tolerate any infringement of its territory. graham: absolutely. he was just coming from spending the weekend with the p.l.a. at their -- charlie: people's liberation army. graham: they had a celebration thehe 90th birthday of people's liberation army. the people's liberation army. there were military exercises in which they were playing against looking a lot like us. charlie: what do you think the chinese mind is about what they want to do? >> i think it's very clear. long before donald trump sounded

'ss banner, xi jinping objective is to make china great again. he calls it the great rejuvination of the great chinese people. in his story, china was the great country for 5,000 years. there was a 200-year intermission when the west exploited them. but china is growing stronger. charlie: they want to be great on their own terms and not as part of what the west is creating. graham: correct. china wants to be accepted as china and not as an honorary member of the west. charlie: what does that mean because many people will argue with you that china doesn't have global ambitions. it is not an imperialistic power. not in its history or its intent. imperialistic power. graham: there are two coup points. with respect to its ambitions

for the time being, it's right to say they would like to be the predominant power in the western pacific, which means not seeing the u.s. navy as the arbiter of events in the south china sea determining who should be building an island or owns an island. they look like teddy roosevelt looked at the caribbean. charlie: other people claiming parts of those islands are not the united states. it is its neighbors. graham: we are not claiming. but we are claiming we have a say in what's going on. when the british and germans wanted to have a say in a territorial dispute in venezuela roosevelt said, either , have a war with us or butt out. in our hemisphere we thought we should be determined how these things are adjusted. from their point of view as great china historically did not have some other great power

there helping determine who owns an island or who builds an island or what goes on. to your second point, the chinese imperialism is not of territorial occupation. they just want you to be states -- tributary states who give deference and respect. charlie: in their region or beyond their region? graham: in the first instance, their region is as far as they can see. it is things they can see initially. again, i think -- i bet if xi jinping were articulating, he would say, say up to the second centennial which is 2049, we just want to be a great power in our region. we don't have ambitions to be in europe. charlie: you think that might change? ifham: well, the question is

in 50 years if i become the predominant power in asia, will my horizon expand? maybe, maybe not. insisted on, china everything it could see. but it couldn't see things that were very far away and i don't think it has any territorial ambitions but it does have ambitions to be great and have others be deferential. charlie: but it is throwing its weight around. the number of projects it has in pursuit of minerals and relationships on different continents around the world, africa, latin america, the trade with latin america. graham: absolutely. it's a stream to the resources that it thinks are essential to its super economic growth. i think again historically, if all i want to do is secure my lines of communication and all i

want to do is secure my access to resources, that and the japanese case led ultimately to an engagement and fighting about that. i don't think most of the chinese fellows i know don't see china developing a desire to want to occupy other people's countries, but they do want to have a say and have a substantial say. and the closer it is to them, the more say they want. how do you compare xi jinping to previous chinese leaders? others of recent history? graham: i was in beijing two, three weeks ago and the chinese, i try to ask them a question like that and listen around the edges. clearly, he is not like any any leader since mao. saying, he is not the

ceo, he is the c.o.e., the chief of everything. he has all the lines running to him. charlie: including the military. graham: everything. basically, tao is not a comparison. the only comparison is ping or mao. he has declared himself the core leader and they may even elevate him to another level at this party congress coming up in november. charlie: one of my wonderful and talking about ping and what he was doing in singapore and sent 200 chinese to go to singapore and observe and come back so whatever revolution they were going to take on in china, they would know what he had done.

graham: lee kuan yew felt himself to be half chinese but he mostly cared about singapore and trying to make singapore survive. in order to do that, he had a need to know what was going on next door in china. wanted to know what was going on next door in china. and the chinese saw these chinese guys making a very successful society in singapore, how does this work. yu talked about the black box, like the westerners had a trick. lee kuan yew said no you have , private property and economy and that's how it works. every one of these leaders called lee kuan yew, mentor. he spent thousands of hours with these people talking face to face. when you ask what does xi jinping want it's not coming up , with a theory of the case.

charlie: he understood power more than democracy. graham: way more. there is a funny story when i got to know him initially became a fellow at the institute of politics at harvard and took a sabbatical after seven years as prime minister. this was in the late 1960's. i kept seeing him in between. every time we would come away with 1,000 good ideas. and one time he called me up and said i'm talking about sending my son there. i said that's great. we have an admissions process. he said, i want you to make sure you take care of them and make sure he learns everything. but don't talk to him about democracy. [laughter] charlie: what's interesting to me is how the chinese see the united states.

do they respect us, do they not respect us or look at the things we have accomplished both in terms of our universities, in terms of our technology, in terms the success of our economy and do they say, there's a lot to be admired and some things to be copied? graham: they think america is a superpower and how it could become such a successful society. they copy everything they can copy, they steal what they can steal. they emulate what they can emulate but don't want to become americans and don't want to have our system. charlie: what is it about us they don't want to be? it was said after the collapse in 2008, and the economic collapse we had in 2008 -- we don't necessarily think you are doing it right? graham: 2008 was a big event for them in the financial domain where they talked about capitalism, wall street, you know about financial markets.

you must know some magic of financial markets. and when there was a collapse, and we had to struggle they came , to conclude, maybe the teacher doesn't know the answer. in their system, they believe you have more control of everything. xi jinping is not going to relax capital markets because he is afraid of what the consequences would be. they aren't prepared for their market economy and have national champions which the government supports. every day you pick up the paper and see, here they are trying to build chips and semiconductors so they can compete. there was a time when germany was the place that built high-speed rail. they built some in china. they require the technology and steal the rest. now china builds the high-speed train. they are predatory in learning from somebody who has been successful in every area.

but when it comes to government and politics, they watch the u.s. in the 21st century and they say, would anybody try to emulate that system? any sane person? we are about pragmatism and not ideology. we've got what works and a system in which the leaders get to be leaders by being tested at many levels. so we have a meritocracy. so we are quite happy with our system, thank you and not trying to sell it to you or tell other people what they should do but we are telling you we aren't interested. charlie: don't talk to us about freedom and human rights. peace winnernobel dissidents in the hospital, and they keep them. they are cruel cruel. charlie: someone you knew.

will he be the next premier? graham: everybody there is terrified watching to see what happens between now and november and the party congress where xui is going to get his second term lease. charlie: beyond the age of what they normally allow you to do it. graham: it is important to break the age limit if xi jinping would like to break that age limit. charlie: in preparing this book "destined for war: can america and china escape thucydides's trap?" you look at history. not just china and america.

you looked at where had this , been this kind of rivalry in history? you looked at 16 cases. graham: i have a chapter on the road to 1914 and world war i. basically a rising germany which after unification was half the size of britain. became equal to britain by building a big navy. 1900. under this dangerous dynamic an accident happens, a serbian terrorist assassinates the archduke in yugoslavia. -- sarajevo. charlie: that started the war. graham: absolutely. i have studied this case since college. it is still unbelievable. the parties were not looking for a war with each other. how in the world did an archduke who was a lonely emperor, at the

end of this war, every one of the participants had lost what he cared about most. he is trying to keep together his empire and he's gone. the empire is dissolved. the russian czar and trying to back the serbians. he was overthrown by the bolsheviks. the kaiser backing his buddy in vienna. you look at this. if they were given a do over, they would not have done what he did. charlie: war happens over a wrong assumption or some triggered event that nobody expected. graham: right. and that's the extreme danger. and today, i would say the thing that sounds the most dangerous like that is kim jong-un testing icbm's. charlie: let's talk about that. here's what the president said. he said i went to mar-a-lago and , said to the chinese and said i'm passionate about trade and

getting a fair deal for american workers and crating more jobs, and all i want is fair trade. i'm willing not to make the case if you'll help me on north korea. then three, four months later is -- what he says is, they did not help him at all. in fact, rather than trying to encourage north korea to do the right thing and not do this, they didn't. and so the united states is put in a very, very difficult place. each time the north koreans make another test, they learn from it, whether it's successful or not. and there is inevitability about that. what does the united states do? graham: unfortunately, what we're seeing is the cuban missile crisis in slow motion which is speeding up. not long, not today, but in months, donald trump will have -- donald trump will come to a fork in the road, like kennedy did. he will have to choose between

attacking north korea to prevent it from doing further icbm tests korea,iescing in north being able to attack the west coast with nuclear weapons. at the mar-a-lago summit, there is no way i'm going to have this crazy kim jong-un with the ability to attack san francisco or los angeles. forget about it. charlie: how do think it will go? that,: the response to general mattis, north korea attacks seoul, maybe kills a couple hundred thousand people or more. in which case, we have to try to suppress that to prevent him from sending out more rockets and from killing millions people. whereupon we have the korean second war. we should remember what happened in the first korean war. in the first korean war, north korea attacks south korea and almost pushed and took control of the whole peninsula.

americans came to the rescue at the last minute. pushed north korea up. charlie: harry truman. graham: and there were leftovers in japan, five years after world war ii. we push them back up the peninsula thinking it will be over by christmas. out of the blue, 300,000 chinese and another half-million push us , back and lead us back down to the peninsula where the war started. so the chinese said, we settled the manner. there is not going to be a unified korea or american military might on our border. you say, well, wait a minute, we are not starting this. it is this guy kim jong-un. i think this will be extremely painful playing out. trump has made it plain, he says he's not going to live with him -- with a kim jong-un who does more tests and is therefore

capable of attacking us. but trump has said a lot of things and seems to change his mind, who knows. charlie: would you advise him in this circumstance, do not attack north korea even if they have a nuclear weapon that could reach san francisco? what you should do is look with it in the way we have lived with other countries to have nuclear weapons even though we have questions about the rationality of their leader? graham: i'm not 100% clear. i have been thinking, what would i do? 19 94, i wasre in assistant secretary at the pentagon and ash carter was another assistant secretary. the pentagon was unanimous that we should attack north korea then. charlie: ash carter talks about that. graham: this was a time when they were getting the first material to be able to have nuclear weapons. i still thought that was the right thing to do. we understood at the time that that might trigger a second

korean war and that would be horrific. and the south korean president, forget about it, under no circumstances attack this guy. because otherwise, the consequences. i am afraid we will find a way to live with this by combination of deterrence -- deterrents. maybe something happens. charlie: as you know, he does have paranoia about the united states trying to attack him. we saw general mattis say in the look, in a days, message to north korean leadership, we have no interest in regime change and no interest in attacking you. we simply cannot live with the idea of you having nuclear weapons. please appreciate that. graham: this is going to be a tough situation between the horrible and --

charlie: here is the interesting thing. the chinese don't want the north koreans to have nuclear weapons. why can't they find some way to help the united states by saying to the north koreans look, we have been providing you fuel and coal and without us, your whole country is going to go down the tubes without us? graham: listen, adult supervision in this situation, there is not. charlie rose is going down sitting with xi jinping and trump and say, you are about the stumble into a war. charlie: i am ready. graham: you are about to stumble into a war that is going to be catastrophic for both of us. and afterwards just like in 1914, by 1918, they were are -- they were going to say, how dumb was this? let's look and see what we can do together to prevent this

little pipsqueak from dragging you into a war. if they have those conversations, it would be painful because china would want us to do some things we would not want to do. and they would have to do things they do not want to do. it is clear they provide 95% of the oil for kim jong-un. they say if we were to cut it off, he might attack us. charlie: is he crazy and erratic? look at what he has done. graham: he's crazy like a fox. charlie: he believes nuclear weapons will give him power, not the power to attack, but the power to defend. graham: and to survive. charlie: he looks at qaddafi and people like that who gave up their nuclear capability and said, look at what happened to qaddafi. graham: i agree with you 100%. giving up nuclear weapons makes no sense. this is just a pretense. no sense about that. the question is, given that he

has nuclear weapons already, and he can already attack south korea, how much extra does he us?being able to attack not much. if you could imagine americans and chinese doing something together saying this is going to stop now. if it doesn't stop now, we are going to play out an extremely hard hand. that should include china cutting off by half the oil. and if he does another test, all together. but that would be jointly and the chinese are looking at us and saying i see. , you are building missile defenses in south korea and a lot of designs here, you would like to have a military on our border. we're looking at them and saying, you want to keep us entangled in this so deeply we are not worried about the other things you are doing. the dynamic, getting adult

supervision and people being candid is extremely how. -- hard. charlie: back to lee kuan yew. be the china will biggest player in the history of the world. that's how strong they want to be. graham: it is hard for us to recognize -- charlie: 2050 is not that far away 33 years away. ,graham: most americans don't know that it's a fact today china's economy is bigger than the u.s. economy by the single best yardstick from comparing national economies. i mean purchasing power parity. so if you go to the "wall street journal" you will not read that. but if you go to the cia website -- charlie: per capita. graham: per capita is a huge difference. if you think about two competitors and governance works for the last 20 years and ours, we grow 2% and they grow 6%.

look and see how that goes. on a per capita basis they have , four times as many people as we do. if they are only one quarter as productive as we are, they get to be as big as we are. charlie: if you look at emerging nations and what gives them power is the rise of a middle class that has huge consumer demand and when there is huge consumer demand, there is need for enterprises and businesses that can produce an economy that is growing faster than the established economy. graham: absolutely. they have a middle class that is bigger than our whole population. charlie: 300 million people. graham: funny kissinger line, he was in chinatown, and we went to an opera. he said, wow! that's unbelievable, and must be one in a million. and he said that means we only have 1000 of them. [laughter]

you havethe areas suggested it could happen is taiwan. graham: taiwan would be extremely good. the quote you gave about sovereign territory. stepped intoalmost the surest route to war. if taiwan is trying to be independent. what did he say? graham: trump, in the transition, had a phone call with the president of taiwan, in which he suggested, maybe if taiwan wants to be an independent country, maybe it should. if u.s. supported efforts for taiwan to become independent, i do not think any person believes that china would not fight the u.s. over that for sure. charlie: that is a central principle for them. graham: when you get to other territory, what about hong kong? if you watch this with the 20th anniversary of hong kong hong

, kong has been having some strong impulses towards more rights for individuals. they don't like to have people telling them what websites i can go to, what can i read, and they want more democracy. but xi jinping said, forget about it. they will not have any space. when you get to the question of the south china sea, there is more ambiguity. they claim this line with all the features of whether that counts as their sovereign territory or not, there is some ambiguity. charlie: listen to this. this is xi jinping with a quote i read to you earlier. we absolutely will not permit any person, any organization, any political party at any time in any form to separate any piece of china territory from china. that was pretty clear. graham: very clear. charlie: right below is a story on u.s. trade.

it basically says the trump , administration is playing trade measures to force beijing to crack down on intellectual property, theft and ease requirements that american companies share advanced technologies to gain entry into the chinese market. would sayucydides this is the way the dynamic normally works. basically, the rising power tries to take advantage, all the advantages it can and in the chinese case, they have an artfulness about their combination of intellectual property theft, their -- because they have a huge market forcing companies to play by their rules, which include transferring technology. and then building up the competitor, excluding the external parties. if you look at apple or google, they can't operate in china. if china tells them you have to

take -- ok, yes, so basically. charlie: that's what apple did. graham: and google did something for their cloud yesterday or the day before. but every day, that is going to continue. charlie: that's how big the market is. graham: people want growth, they are going to go to the growth area. and the ruling power looks at this and says, wait a minute, you are trying to take advantage of us. yeah, that's what you are doing. you will see some pushback. the onlyyou suggest thing that can save us here is leadership. graham: yes. the biggest question for both china and the u.s. is what happens inside their own borders. and i give a little conclusion in the book, let's imagine adult supervisor, this hypothetically. she would say to both xi jinping

and trump the biggest question , you have to solve is whether your society can govern itself. look at the american society, you would say, you have a dysfunctional democracy. it ain't worth it. if it continues not to work, that will be decisive. we would say to xi jinping, you are trying to retro party dominated by an authoritarian system in a society in which people have smartphones. and as lee kuan yew told you, that is an operating system that is not going to work in that environment. you have to loosen adaptations. the big question over the next chinayears, is, how does manage its affairs, and how do we manage our affairs? charlie: i once asked lee kuan yew who do most admire? he said xaoping. i asked him about xi

jinping and he said this guy is extremely impressive. i am no china expert but he once -- i said to him, who should i meet in china? somebody that was a lot like him. he said he had iron in his soul. there was a cultural revolution, they sent them off to the countryside and almost died. his sister committed suicide. he thought of getting out of this world and said i'm going to become greater than great and get my way to the top. i said who is he like? he said a little bit like nelson mandela. i said what? that would be the most implausible thing imaginable. he said this is a man who is emotionally very secure and been

through such, that he is perfectly determined to do whatever he has to do. aarlie: and he is married to general who happens to also be a singer. graham: absolutely. one of the brilliant strokes, president trump at the heart of the show it matter a lot go show, he had arabella, the daughter of ivanka come out and he said, i want you to meet my granddaughter and she's five years old. she sang in mandarin the song called "jasmine" which is a signature song of xi jinping's wife. they thought they had come to hollywood or heaven. charlie: congratulations. do you think there will be war between the u.s. and china? graham: over what period? charlie: between now and 2050? graham: i would say the odds are much larger than anybody in washington imagines, much larger

-- not less than 25%. because i hope -- there is no reason to repeat historical mistakes. only those who refused to study history are condemned to repeat it. we can learn a lot from the mistakes other people have made. there's a lot of special advantages in the current situation. if you had adults managing the two places, i think it's very small. "destinedhe title is for war." ♪

charlie: graham windham is one of the largest orphanages in the country. it was founded by eliza hamilton. in 1806.it was founded it supports hundreds of at-risk children. it has received renewed experience because of the success of lin-manuel miranda's "hamilton." we have jeffrey seller, the producer of "hamilton". i'm pleased to have them here at

this table. give me a history of graham windham because it was the largest private orphanage. >> correct. evolved,was, it has emerged. in 2006, it celebrated 200 years of existence and when you think about it, it is foster care kids the new orphans in our society. so the institution has evolved in helping thousands and thousands of kids into the foster care system. charlie: they place kids where they can go and live with a family and they may not stay there for a long period? >> they do and work to get permanent homes for them, but to -- but they are different to the

degree there making a commitment to that child or adolescent to be with them until they are 25. not just until they place them. they will continue to work with them until they are young adults, to make sure their path to success is established. most of them will let go with placement of adoption. but they will continue to work with kids. charlie: eliza hamilton alexander hamilton's widow lived , to be 90? >> almost long enough to see abraham lincoln walking down the streets of washington. charlie: that's amazing. 80 or 90? i don't remember, certainly about 90 or so. charlie: she was involved how? >> you have to remember that half of her life, she lived after the death of her husband. and she was involved with

raising the money for the washington monument. and as she sings at the end of the play, the orphanage was her crowning achievement. and what happened was, she teamed up with mrs. graham of graham windham who started this idea in 1797, and then around 1806, they formed this orphanage, which was -- whose mission it was to help new york city youth. charlie: you two are being honored as what? luis: being good people, i guess.

[laughter] luis: we actually have gotten involved with the organization. jeffrey was this past year's honoree, because there are a lot of relationships and programming that was born out of "hamilton" and graham windham. jeffrey: this is what happened in the year before "hamilton" came to the world in 2015, they would have something like 67 annual donors or something like that. and the year after it was up to 1,300. so the beauty of all of the joyous beautiful things that "hamilton" has brought into the world, one of them is elevating graham windham to a place where it can expand its budget and provide services to more young people. charlie: how did the success of "hamilton" make that possible? because no one knew that eliza's orphanage still existed. this is what happened, it was of december 2014. we had not opened yet to the public theater, but it was already sold out and they were

putting out new tickets. and graham windham sent out a tweet to our tweeter in chief lin-manuel, and said, thank you. we are graham windham and we are the successor organization -- we are the organization that eliza started and lin did not know that and we did not know that. 'sddenly, allies of'-- eliza orphanage is active in going crazy. jeffrey: there are different programs -- luis: there are different programs that have zaen created through the eli project, money for the cast to work artistically with the kids windham. graham the latest technology project they are putting in the school, 2 in have a school since 190

westchester. it is a k-12 school. someone from puerto rico called me and said i'm going to see "hamilton." you don't know me, i would love to have breakfast with you. i said yes. the guy happened to be the chief person for hewlett-packard. and said, we want to do something with you guys. fund graham windham. later, to a jiffy thousand dollars lab in the school. charlie: they built the lab? luis: yes in the graham windham , school for 300 kids that are being served. all of these unintended good consequences of "hamilton." " did a lot oflton

good things. jeffrey: graham windham is serving 4,500 kids a year. graham windham has 17 full-time staff members whose mission it is is to nurture these teenage kids so they can graduate high school successfully, graduate college successfully and then start their careers in the working world and develop into independent autonomous, productive adults. charlie: worthy project. >> it's a fantastic project. charlie: let's talk about "hamilton." great show. are you in a position of the rest of your life going to be judged what you do in contrast to "hamilton"? >> i had the joyous and transformational experience of producing "rent" when i was 31 years old. every awardhas won

you could win. jeffrey: it was written by the extraordinary author jonathan larson who died on the eve of the first preview of "rent." and when i did "rent," people said, i hope you are enjoying this because it is never going to happen again. and i smiled at that and i said you're probably right, it's probably never going to happen again. but it didn't stop me from committing myself to this crazy endeavor that i love, which is making new musicals and figuring out how to crack that code to make a great new musical. and "avenue q" came after that, whichwon the tony award. and then lin-manuel miranda came

into my life. and we made "in the heights" together, which was a joyous experience. and then "hamilton" which has absolutely been the biggest one of all. charlie: by a wide margin. jeffrey: what is so joyous about that is this notion that something comes into the world through the inspiration and artistic ingenuity of someone like lynn and creates a need where we never knew we needed it before. and it creates a want where we never knew we wanted it before. and yet it fills us with so many rich feelings. feelings of aspiration, feelings of patriotism, feelings of camaraderie, and of course, feelings of loss and of grief. some of the he gave actors, made them part of our history. jeffrey: it has been a game changer.

in a, how we can educate young people, how we can inspire young people. and tommy and our creative team have created a show that looks like america today so that young youngn-americans, latinos, young mexicans, young asian-americans can look at that stage and say, i'm part of the story. charlie: exactly. american story. jeffrey: that is my story. charlie: as one of them said to me, it made me feel like i was truly an american. jeffrey: maybe for the first time. charlie: exactly. how is it changed your life? luis: we'll is had a complicated life and politics for the most , part. charlie: he had koch. nuel'si love being lin-ma dad.

people stop me in the street. the other day of was going to the office and some lady screamed hey, hey! ,lin-manuel dad.anuel's i have to take a selfie with you. it has changed our life for the better. to use everything that hamilton has bought -- brought to do very good things. the graham windham, the hamilton initiative, the prize sweep -- sweepstakes we do now that raises millions of dollars for that we do with openings. every time "hamilton" has an opening, we have a sweepstakes. in the united states.

charlie: how many performances are there now? jeffrey: there are three "hamilton" companies running right now, one in san francisco, one in chicago and one in new york. and within one year there will be five. when we add the london to the mix, and another u.s. tour that will open in february of 2018 in seattle. charlie: it will stay in seattle? jeffrey: it will work in seattle for six weeks and start touring across the united states of america. luis: we are doing the "hamilton " education initiative, where we will bring 250,000 kids who are going to be participating in the curriculum that ends up seeing "hamilton" at the theater. and talking to the actors. charlie: is there a movie coming out of this? jeffrey: there is no movie coming out of" for a long time

to come. because we need to ensure that the indelible experience of seeing it on stage is the way to experience "hamilton." luis: manuel says it all the time, and it is what attracted us to broadway before any of this happened. there's nothing like that life experience with actors that are doing this for you that night. there is no experience like that, other than real life. jeffrey: that live experience. charlie: how many kids have come there is no experience like that, other than real life. through graham windham? luis: i'm sure it's tens of thousands right now. jeffrey: they are serving 4,500 kids every year right now. charlie: and putting them on a path to be enormously productive so they can write "hamiltons." jeffrey: that is the goal. entrepreneurs, doctors, nurses and teachers. charlie: thank you. wonderful to see you.

back in a moment. ♪ charlie: finally, on an upcoming

charlie rose we look at the new film, "detroit," directed by kathryn bigelow. it tells of the tragedy that happened at the algiers motel in 1967.

[video clip] >> you know what happened at the motel? >> what happened at the motel? >> you don't know? i was working security and on tuesday night, we heard gunfire coming from the area of the algiers. police were there. there was a lot of shooting. when i went in there, three kids had been killed. >> no. >> they were killed right before you got there. >> you carry a .38, right? >> a revolver. >> you carried a revolver?

>> i do have a .38. >> you ever shoot anyone? >> i didn't do it. >> ah, here we go. >> here in city of detroit. violence continues. state police and national guardsmen declaring a state of emergency. >> it is a war zone out there they are destroying the city. , >> police. >> i'm just going to assume you're all criminals. >> you don't talk to anyone about this understand? , ever, >> this city has rocked. but change is coming. >> i told you what i saw. i'm trying to help you. >> change is coming. >> what's the matter with you? >> change is coming. >> they're going to kill us.

>> i need you. >> you want to go home? >> yeah. >> what happened at the motel? [end of video clip] kathryn: the writer next to me who whose work is extraordinary came to me with a story set against the detroit riots. the detroit uprising in a true 1967, story of a true crime set in the middle of it at the algiers motel. it was simply put, an execution. and, a portrait of police brutality and racial injustice that was extremely moving, very timely and very topical and the same time he told me this story, the decision not to indict the officer involved in the michael brown shooting had taken place.

i felt that the story needed to be told. ♪ ♪

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washington, and you are watching "bloomberg technology." the wall street journal is reporting special counsel robert mueller has enlisted a grand jury in washington to investigate russia's interference in the 2016 election. that is a sign the probe is intensifying. under its authority, prosecutors can subpoena documents, put witnesses under oath, if there is evidence of a crime. west virginia's democratic governor jim justice is reportedly switching sides. three sources familiar with the plan say he is expected to announce tonight he is joining the republican party. trump had promised a big announcement in west virginia. leaked transcripts of phone