♪ from our studios in new york city, this is charlie rose. >> another terrorist attack on friday, this time in the london subway. at least two dozen people were injured. meanwhile, in new york, the united nations was holding a conference on what can be done thatmbat violent extremism leads to terror attacks. one of the speakers is the survivor of a terrorist attack six years ago. in 2011, a right-wing gunman killed 77 people attending a

youth camp on the norwegian island and one other location. thanks for being here. what are your feelings when newscasters say, "another terrorist attack?" we are getting used to this sort of thing. >> to me, every attack is devastating. i know what it is like to be there. i know what the families of the people who were there are going through. it is always painful to see these things. -- it is kind of scary to see that we are kind of getting used to this in a way. this is an extremely important topic and something we have to work to combat everywhere. >> the conference you were attending, and so many people have experienced the kind of you have experienced --

the question is how that deliberateness of evil and the production of mayhem and murder grows?-- and murder you witnessed it on that island because you survived and you could see the gunman in his deliberateness, moving from person-to-person. can you take us there at all? is that an appropriate question to even ask? >> i think the deliberateness is an important factor of these extremist attacks. these people are not coming out of nowhere. they are convinced that what they are doing is right. breivik claims himself that he went through about a decade of planning and preparing for his attacks. to me, that was visible on the island. i remember a moment when i was

standing in the water looking back towards land. i had kind of falling over in the water because i was wearing a jumper and was pulling it off. i looked back to land and saw him take aim at my head. i was convinced those were the last moments of my life. host: do you feel as though that , is coming from a galaxy far away or he is actually not so far from what we like to think of ourselves, as civilized? >> he is not from that far away. i think that is important to remember when we are trying to deal with extremists. these are people that come from our neighborhood, our communities. breivik grew up in oslo. so did i. our histories are not that different. we have the same socioeconomics and all of that. host: he was in the tech business. guest: he ended up on a very

different path from me. he was driven by the fear of others, of people being different. that is one defining factor of all extremists, this fear of people who have a different way of life. that is why breivik attacked us and that is why isis and other organizations are attacking other people, because they want people to be the same. they are extremely afraid of diversity and that this diversity might change their way of life or be a threat to their way of life. in some sort of way, we have to work to make people comfortable with diversity and make sure we do not feel that existential fear and we find other ways of dealing with the fact that our societies are changing. host: there is a remarkable debate that goes on about events like this and the moment we are in. i'm very curious to know your thoughts on this. on the one hand, people say terrorism is this moral outrage,

this huge flaw within the human spirit that needs to be corrected. conferences like the one you were attending are an attempt to deal with that. others say it is because the world is, in the 21st century , mixing in an intimate, in-your-face way that has never been the case. that this is a consequence. these are the sparks that occur when the wheels hit each other, and we will eventually get used to it. how do you respond to that debate? guest: i think both have some truth. i think the problem is not within the individual but within our communities and how we deal with the fact that our communities are mixing. we have to learn to live with people who have different backgrounds. we have to learn to live together in positive ways.

there are tensions that occur. but a lot of it has to do with communication. communication between communities of people who live close to each other is breaking down. we see people speaking at each each other than to each other. we see people living next to each other belonging to their own camp religiously or politically or in any sort of way. they get their sense of belonging elsewhere than in their geographical community. communication breaks down. they do not speak to each other. they speak about each other. when speaking about each other, you do not get to know the person. you often start fearing that person. that is where conflict arises. host: can technology help? it sounds like you are saying technology is not helping now. guest: technology needs to get better at helping. i think a lot of what we are seeing in social media is called filter bubbles, where people who have the same ideas like the same stuff on facebook and get more of that same narrative of

what is going on. i think the same technology can be utilized differently to interject new ideas into communities. say i like a lot of the stuff on facebook, so send me some of the stuff i might not like so much so i get a diversity of ideas. the technology is there and can be tweaked to do that. we have to be willing to do that and focus our technologies at creating better communities rather than just getting more clicks. host: companies are responsible. three weeks ago, i looked at pianos for sale. now my facebook says, "do you want a piano?" "do you want a piano?" it is driving me a little crazy, like maybe i should pick a different instrument. it occurs to me to ask this before we go. breivik had a barn full of stuff. weapons, bombs he was making, a laboratory in fact. the bomb you saw on the london

underground was this bucket of horror. if you ever came upon somebody preparing such a device, a breivik of the future, what would you say to them to get them to change? guest: if someone is building a bomb, that is a case for law-enforcement. host: would you recognize it and say something? you have an insight the rest of us do not have. guest: i think all bombs are creations of some form of evil. that evil quite often comes from pain. some of the extremists i have been working with who have come out of extremist movements say they are suffering from existential pain and that leads -- that is something they spread by causing other people pain. we have to look at those sources of pain and how we heal them. how do we make people at peace with who they are so they do not

hurt other people? when it comes to every extremist, they have a different path into extremism and a different path out of extremism. at the end of the day, it all relates to the value of human beings and these extremists realizing the value of human beings. even though human beings might disagree and be different, we are at the end of the day all human and human lives are valuable. the only way of getting extremists to stop is by teaching them that through experience, through lived experience. ♪

♪ >> we heard a lot about the destruction in hurricane irma's path this week, but the storm's first american landfall was in the u.s. virgin islands. hurricane irma came ashore they -- there as a category five storm, destroying homes and infrastructure. the island of st. john was particularly hard hit. 30 residents still missing. the island is without power and running water. many are still being evacuated by air and sea to st. croix and puerto rico. jordyn holman is a reporter for bloomberg. she was on st. john earlier this week. welcome. what is it like? i have covered hurricanes. an island situation is very different. what is it like to land on an island and, wherever you look, there is no fresh water or

infrastructure of any kind? jordyn: these islands are tourist destinations. you are used to seeing palm trees and green grass. it was very barren. all of the trees were stripped of their leaves. houses were flattened. schools were gone. it was not what you would expect for this island. host: i am familiar with the national parks down there. it is a mix of wilderness and built up area in st. john. how did you find it? jordyn: the trees are all over the streets. host: mixed up. jordyn: mixed up, yeah. electricity poles are down. cars everywhere. a lot of disarray. host: how is the infrastructure and the caribbean first responders dealing with this disaster? jordyn: the difference with a hurricane on an island is people cannot evacuate. it did take a few days for fema and other first responders to reach st. john and st. thomas.

host: there were reports, and they were frightening, that without the infrastructure, fresh water, and food, civil order completely broke down. did you find evidence of that? jordyn: i think the biggest thing is when you do not have door or a roof and there is no electricity, you are sleeping in the middle of the dark so a lot of people were concerned about their personal safety. there are no locks on the door. everyone is trying to survive. i saw a lot of people helping out neighbors, trying to lend a hand. host: a community sense, but when you cannot see a community, it is even more heartbreaking. jordyn: exactly. host: what did kids say about this? obviously, there were injuries as well as devastation. what did you witness? jordyn: it is the start of the school year in most places. schools have not opened. schools got destroyed during this. i think parents are in a

particularly tough spot because there's glass everywhere, all of these potential injuries that can happen with kids running around. everyone is trying to keep their family close and evacuate to other islands with the mainland -- other islands or the mainland if they can. host: in talking about harvey and irma in florida, there is a sense that years will go by before the recovery is clear. in florida, in many ways, it was not as bad as expected. but how long is it going to take st. john to recover? jordyn: it is going to be a years-long recovery as well. i talked to fema officials there. they said, don't expect weeks or months. measure this in years. host: american taxpayers, puerto rico is in a serious debt problem. the u.s. virgin islands were also in a serious debt problem with, now, cash flow issues going forward. jordyn: moody's put out a report

last week saying they cannot quantify how expensive this will be, but it could be a strain on the liquidity for the virgin islands. host: it is different in puerto rico. the bonds question in puerto rico is different than the u.s. virgin islands. they don't have quite a debt crisis. nevertheless, there is a connection with the united states taxpayer. they are going to need help from the united states government. jordyn: you know, that is the fortunate thing about the u.s. virgin islands. they are part of the united states. they can tap into federal funding, so compared to other caribbean islands, that is a resource they can have. host: people on st. john will note that i said, they will need help from the united states government. but we are the united states. did you have a sense of, we are a part of america, too, when you were down there? jordyn: everyone i spoke to impressed that on me. they said, we are part of the

united states. we work in your hotels and restaurants, but we are also your neighbors and fellow citizens. we need the same federal attention and aid as people affected by harvey and irma. we are the same. host: what is it like for someone who covers finance and numbers at bloomberg to suddenly go down and see the tangible impacts of a huge destruction that is told not in numbers? jordyn: it is told in human experiences. so many people started crying when they were just talking about losing everything. they lost homes. they can't work right now. it is an eye-opening experience and a good reminder everyone should lend a hand, and they do need to have their stories and voices heard during this experience. host: speaking of reminders, this would normally be the

beginning of school. it is also the beginning of the peak tourist season over the next six months. jordyn: exactly. they do not experience winter like we do in new york. this is another consideration the u.s. virgin islands governor has. usually, st. thomas and st. john are marketed as the tourist attractions. the governor is trying to redirect cruise ships to st. croix, which is about 40 miles away and did not get hit as hard to keep that tourism going, keep entertainment and keep people coming and spending money on the islands. host: is the governor popular in st. john? jordyn: it is a mixed bag. some residents felt like the aid did not come soon enough. other people say, i knowledge he is in a tough spot. there is devastation everywhere. where do you start? he impressed on everyone to be patient. it might look like nothing is happening, but it is a real -- but there are wheels turning.

host: what do people ask you about your experience down there now that you are back? what is the first story you tell? jordyn: a lot of people have not seen or understand the damage a category five hurricane can bring. one thing i always remember when i was talking to residents down there is how loud the wind can sound like. they had to put headphones in and hunker down in their bathtubs to hide feeling like this could be the end. hearing those stories of people at the edge stuck in my mind. host: irma on st. john. jordyn holman was on st. john earlier this week. remarkable work. thank you so much. jordyn: thank you for having me. ♪

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♪ ♪ which is why comcast business delivers consistent network performance and speed across all your locations. fast connections everywhere. that's how you outmaneuver. ♪ host: we conclude with a final segment of charlie's conversation with steve bannon, the former white house chief strategist and current executive chairman of breitbart news. portions of this conversation first aired sunday on "60 minutes." we have been airing it all week on this program. carly: back to china. charlie: acta china. did you talk to henry kissinger about china? >> yes. >> what is the conversation? >> the conversation was interesting.

we spent several hours talking about china, talking about our differences. i'm not sure sure dr. kissinger disagrees with my assessment. i think he disagrees with my potential solutions. i talked about being more aggressive and confrontational. dr. kissinger thinks we ought to be more prudent and long-term. by the way, if we had, from 1992 until today, actually engaged china, but we had the end of history. all the geniuses that told us history was over. so we have been on a 25-year hiatus with china. maybe we could follow dr. kissinger's recommendation, but the hour is late. in the next five or 10 years, we have to engage china very differently. charlie: you worry about a shooting war? steve: with all the provocations in the south china sea, they call it territorial sea now. all those provocations can be avoided.

charlie: it can be avoided but if not, then -- if not, there may very well be a shooting war? steve: i think the united states and china have to make so many errors in their relationships with each other to actually come to armed conflict. by the way, all you have to do -- and the american people know this. they are far more advanced in the heartland of this country on the situation with china than the elites. they understand we have to engage. we can't look away or kick the can down the road anymore. charlie: in all the conversations about you, there is this "saturday night live" image. do you watch it? steve: i never watch it live, but afterwards, when i been told i am on it or some caricature is on it. charlie: it basically shows you as the grim reaper.

and you said, "dark is good." steve: yes. i said that to the "hollywood reporter" because i had been portrayed in the entire campaign -- i said this two days after the election. the reason he came to interview me, he had come to the headquarters a couple of days after i took over when trump was 16 points down. i told him we are going to win. here's how we are going to do it. he was so blown away he came back. he said, you have been portrayed as darth vader or some dark, evil force. i kind of kidded around and said darkness is good. i don't mind if i am portrayed as somebody that's a tough guy or street fighter. i don't mind that at all. you did not see me running out and saying, don't say that, i am really a nice guy. i feel my actions and my body of

work overtime will speak enough for itself. i don't need affirmation of the mainstream media. i don't care what they say. they can call me an anti-semite, racist, anything they want. as long as we are driving the agenda for the working men and women of this country, i am happy. charlie: you also believe in speaking truth to power? steve: certainly. charlie: it is said on speaking truth that when the president saw this, "time" magazine, you on the cover, that he felt a bit like, it is me, not him. and he did not like it. steve: i think that has been way over-reported. he kidded me about this. svengali. my svengali. i'm my own strategist. he has a great sense of humor. i think we have a tremendous relationship.

he does not take it seriously. he knows exactly what "time" magazine is trying to do. photo, "time"is took from his "man of the year." he understands what the media is trying to do. they are trying to say you are the genius, you have all the ideas, i'm just the actor. he understood. donald trump, and this is what the mainstream media does not get, this is a guy that is so comfortable in his skin, he does not need media affirmation. the whole thing that he is upset about the guy that plays him on "saturday night live" and the grim reaper and at the kids' table -- donald trump is a serious guy. charlie: he is not insecure? steve: absolutely not. can you be insecure and go through what he went through in this campaign? has anybody in modern political history ever had the mainstream media, the establishment on both parties, come out to destroy

him? and by the way, in order to get through that and win and govern, you have to be so comfortable in your skin. you don't have time during the presidential campaign to find out who you are. you have to know who you are. donald trump knows who he is. that is what drives the mainstream media crazy. charlie: you keep saying what drives the mainstream media crazy. when you talk about the chairman of the senate foreign relations committee raising questions about the president, that is not the mainstream media. the media simply recording what they are doing. steve: that is the establishment. charlie: have you ever had a conversation about the fitness of the president to run, to be president? have you ever had a conversation? steve: are you kidding me? he is not just fit to be president. charlie: i'm just asking you the question. steve: not even an issue. how can you sit there and see what he has done on issues like afghanistan, on issues around

the world where time and time again it is not a snap decision? this is where the narrative is dead wrong. they had all the stuff in the "wall street journal" with the advertisements from the geniuses in the bush administration that got us here and told us there free be liberal democracy, market capitalism, the same geniuses that got us into iraq. the same geniuses that said unless you go nuclear, you will end up in a hole dragged out by army forces. that is the lesson of iraq. that is the geniuses of the bush administration. i hold these people in total and complete contempt. to think that they could question donald trump. you've seen what he has done as commander-in-chief. i hold them in total and complete contempt because here

steve: you see what donald trump has done as commander-in-chief. i hold them in total and complete contempt because here is a man that asked every tough question. it is the kids being killed over there. he knows they come from the working class. he is relentless about working for the ultimate good and the national security of the united states. for that group of people that have gotten this country into the jam it has gotten into, the same guys that kicked the can down the road with korea and its nuclear program, the foreign policy and national security apparatus experts in a hundred years will be looked at as missing the key points and frittered away our great victory over the soviet union. 25 years later we find ourselves in this situation. charley you mean the collapse of : the soviet union? steve: the destruction of the soviet union by the united states of america, president ronald reagan, and his team. a once-in-a-lifetime geopolitical, once in a

country's history where your rival collapses like that and you squander that. we squandered it. we squandered it because of these geniuses. nobody questions it? i don't want to hear it. it gets all over me like nothing else. you know why? they are idiots. they have gotten us in a situation. they question of good men like donald trump? charlie: who are you talking about? you have to name names because you are painting with a broad brush. steve: the entire national security apparatus. charlie: colin powell, rice -- steve: all of it. the obama crowd, almost the same. clinton crowd, almost the same. it is three administrations. that is what trump ran against. he ran against the bush/clinton apparatus. that is what he defeated. the bush apparatus in the primary, the clinton apparatus in the general election. that is what the american people rejected.

that's what they knew they were getting in donald trump. every day -- every day, he is there. every day he is there, working through exactly the opposite of what they said he was going to be. they said he was going to be -- in the situation room and in the white house. charlie: here is what i want to know. steve: ok. got me worked up again. charlie: to be this strongly defender of the president, to have a book written about the two of you, why aren't you in the white house where you were, where you went after the victory in the election? why aren't you there? why would the president of the united states, who you are applaud so loudly, have allowed you to leave if he did not want you out? steve: no, it is the exact opposite. i am not cut out to be a staffer.

charlie: your title was not staffer. your title was chief strategist. steve: you are a staffer, trust me. in the white house, you are a staffer. i had influence in the white outside here, to galvanize the grassroots movement, to lead breitbart, when the president needs that -- charlie: you don't see my kind of guy to me who would leave the field of battle. steve: what you mean? charlie: you were in the white house -- steve: i was a federal government employee. there are certain things you cannot do. you have to take the fight to -- i am a federal government employee. you cannot do it. charlie: the people you need to take the fight to our republicans in the congress? steve: first. first k street lobbyist leadership, the opposition party, my great love to the opposition party media, and to the democratic party, we are going to fight at all. charlie: you think you can do better outside than inside? steve: no doubt.

by the way, i had influence in the white house, no doubt. i did. charlie: give me your own -- in your present mood -- assessment of the wins and losses for steve bannon in the white house. steve: it was not the wins and bannon, itteve ba was reinforcing the -- charlie: how do you define? steve: tpp -- charlie: tpp, you won? steve: sure. all the trade stuff. peter navarro and the trade stuff. we won on trade. trade and immigration are the central beating hearts of our economic nationalism. the eeo that general kelly and introduced and reduced illegal immigration in this country. that was all done by stephen miller in the team inside the white house, working the justice department. it has been a huge success. all the trade stuff with commerce and lighthizer and peter navarro -- charlie: you one on climate.

the president withdrew from the paris accord. you played a huge role in that. you know you did. steve: i played a role in it. charlie: what did you lose on? steve: the religious e.o. executive order. i can't think -- by the way, the wall is not built. ok? the wall will be built. mexico pay?l steve: there will be a system of payments where mexico will pay for it. charlie: they say it would never happen. steve: i didn't say the mexican government would pay for it, but mexico will pay for it. it will be built. it has to be built. it must be built. and it will be built. it has not been built on my watch, did not unwind daca on my watch. that was all set up to do and i am proud that it has been done. charlie: this began for you, this journey, and you have spoken to this, because of what happened to your father. tell me the story.

steve: it is a big part, not all of it, but my dad -- we were raised with two institutions. the catholic church and the phone company, and his dad had worked at the phone company for 50 years and he worked at the phone company for 50 years. besides the military, a lot of chief petty officers and stuff like that, in the navy, besides the military, we were a phone company family. the whole extended family work in the phone companies. at&t stock was considered like stock in the catholic church. he got a little out of his and -- theery month $9,000 house he built in the 1950's, it was his entire network. he noticed during the crash,

right after -- cramer said "hey, if you need cash for the next three years, you better cash out your stock." the concept that my dad would ever sell at&t stock is incomprehensible. it was his absolute anchored to windward, his belief in the company, and the fact that they allowed employees to get a discount was everything to him. he kept talking about during the depression that my grandfather did not get laid off. the company was a living, breathing institution in our life just like the catholic church. to know that he blew out of it like that and took an economic hit, ok? but he is not a wealthy guy. a couple hundred thousand dollars worth of stock. probably sold it for a third of what its value was. that was his nest egg for his retirement. i think he was in his mid to late 80's at the time. he is 96 today. that is when it hit me. it hit me that this was completely brought on by the casino mentality of wall street. this was completely brought on

by the financialization of the economy. this was completely brought on thehe elites who went to finest schools, the law firms, the accounting firms, the investment banks, the politicians who support it. guess what? no equity got taken away from those guys. i think they had three commissions and panels that recommended criminal charges. not one guy has going to jail. not one guy has gone to jail. not one guy lost equity. it was a complete robbery of the middle class and the working class, ok? it was outrageous. $1 trillion in cash. hank paulson goes to the president of the united states with an bernanke and says on september 17, "we need $1 trillion in fused into the economy or in 24 hours, our economy will collapse." charlie: a lot of people think it say the economic system of america, by the way. steve: we know from testimony later that they told them if you

do not do the cash infusion, the american financial system will implode in 72 hours. the world financial system will happen in three weeks. when you say it like that, who is not going to -- but hold on. so that have been, and it saved it, but where is the accountability for the people who caused that? where is the accountability for the people who ran the banks, the hedge funds, politics, that looked the other way? where are those people? how is that accounted for? it is not. it is the marty bannon's -- if you have the people that play by the rules and work for their families and make sure there is something there at the end of the day that they worked on for 50 years at a company, ok, and that is wiped out, and no one is held accountable, you want to start a revolution? that is how a revolution starts. if you cannot take care of that -- and we look the other way the entire time, and by the way, the obama administration -- the problem with the democratic

party is there is no breitbart. the problem with the democratic party is that they have not had a civil war. the financial crisis shows you that. there were guys in the obama administration that understood that they had to go and hold these people have wall street accountable and they blinked. bernie sanders had every opportunity. corruption, the clinton he knew about the corruption, how the wall street crowd had a lock on the democratic party, and he did not have the guts to take on hillary clinton in the primary. he had every opportunity, all the information, but he did not have the guts. democratic party has not taken on -- charlie: wait, wait -- steve: huffington post and rachel maddow are just cheerleaders for the donor class of the democratic party, and until they gut that and have their civil war, they will never have a party. they know that. they have the same problem with the establishment that we have ours.

what you have here, you have a platform. you have a platform at breitbart that is the entire establishment platform. you do not have that. charlie: if you think of the mainstream media -- which i am part of -- is so out to get you, then why are you doing this interview? steve: because i think it is very important now that i am out of the white house to get the message out about president trump and that we will have his back and what the details of populism and economic nationalism are. i couldn't think of a better -- we have done this stuff on capitalism. he has been on 60 minutes a couple of times. you guys have been very fair about allowing somebody to come forward and to talk, and i have watched you for 20 or 30 years on your shows, and i am somebody that has followed your interviews closely, and i think you will be fair handed. by the way, you are part of the opposition party just being part of the mainstream media, but members of that -- by the way, i have many, many dear friends individually. i am talking about as a collective. as a collective, it is a propaganda arm for the globalist corporatism. charlie: the mainstream media? steve: the mainstream media,

absolutely. you see the wall street journal, financial times, the london -- if you look at england right now, you read the economist, you think brexit is the dumbest decision ever made. it is the exact opposite. manufacturing is up 22% in england. stock market is up. investment is up in england. they are getting a tough time from the e.u. because the e.u. wants to send a signal that it is not easy to exit this thing. brexit has been an enormous success. a poll done the other day, 70% of the people -- 50% still support leaving and the other 20% say "a decision was made. we have got to get out." if you read the economist and the financial times everyday day, you would think it is the worst thing in human history, it is coming unwound, and all the jobs in the city will go to frankfurt and paris. it is nonsense. charlie: i have been told by someone who spoke with you that

you worry about the president surviving the four years. i mean that in terms of all the attacks against him, whether it is from the investigation of mueller, the range of things that are coming down on him. speak to me clearly and candidly about your concerns about donald trump making it through four years and getting reelected. steve: not only will he make it through four years, he will make it three or four years if he sticks to the program, and he will -- hang on. he will win with a bigger electoral college majority. the attacks i saw on this man in just the 85 days i was on the campaign, but even during breitbart and my radio show before, were unprecedented. ok? the attacks on him as president of united states were unprecedented. no president including nixon,

lyndon johnson, the worst days of the vietnam war, no president has ever suffered the unrelenting attacks. the only concern i have had is how can any human withstand day in, day out -- you had to expresse: the idea that the president will survive this. you never said to anyone -- steve: no, no, no. absolutely not. what i have said is "can he continue on at the pace that we had and win his reelection with the 400 plus electoral votes i know he can win?" because the unrelenting assault -- by the way, it is the principal reason i left the white house, to make sure he had somebody on the outside, ok? that had an operation that could hope to galvanize the same coalition that elected him, to galvanize and tell these people that we've won in november 2016, but we have to fight every day for this guy if you want to win. the forces are raised against

us. it is not some cute phrase like "drain the swamp." there is a cartel of a permit political class whose business model requires the rejection and destruction of donald trump. and if we do not have his back, they will go to whatever levels they want, whatever investigations, whatever the media, whatever personally, the attacks they put on his family, on his young son, they will go to any lengths to destroy him. charlie: where i'm sitting is bannon embassy.nc steve: breitbart. charlie: who sat in this chair coming here to see you now that you have been out of power, in exile and perhaps with more power, and you say with new guns? steve: all the senior people in the conservative movement. all the senior people. charlie: what do they ask you? steve: they are asking one thing.

what can they do to help the president? what can they do to have donald trump's back? these are people that not only support the president, these are people that saw in the president a leader that represented them, that represented the forgotten man. by the way, all these conservative groups are all grassroots groups. they all live on donations. charlie: don't you consider paul ryan a conservative? steve: i consider him part of the establishment. i do not consider him part of the grassroots, conservative, populist -- charlie: you don't get to define conservatism? steve: sure i do. charlie: no you don't. steve: i absolutely do. i am not saying -- i am not sitting there going that the national review has to agree with my definition of conservatism, because they don't. the weekly standard certainly does not agree with it. we have a very different definition of breitbart. i admit that. weigh judgment

on paul ryan. paul ryan has a very good relationship with -- by the way, his tax plan is a tax plan i said "this is the most well-thought-through nationalist tax plan we could possibly have, and it has no chance of passing because it is too complicated." and he said yes. charlie: three more questions. you are attacking on many fronts people who you need to help you. steve: they are not going to help you unless they are put on notice they are going to be held accountable if they do not support the president of the united states. right now, there is no accountability. they do not support the president's program. it is an open secret on capitol hill. everyone in this city knows it. they mock and ridicule the president -- charlie: he lost the congress? i did not say he lost the congress, the leadership. charlie: he lost the leadership? steve: he has republicans, a lot

of votes in the house. he has votes in the senate. what he doesn't have is leadership. leadership in the donors. the anti-trump, never trump movement was financed by the donors to the establishment of the republican party. the never trumpers think they have a second life. i am there to tell them there is no second life. there will never be an opportunity to be a never trumper. you will either get with the program and the president 's program and have his back, or you will be held accountable. charlie: and maybe have a primary challenger? steve: 100%. by the way, if you are not -- if you are not 100% supporting the president of the united states like random states like tennessee, then you are going to have a primary challenger that will be a real primary challenger. charlie: everybody listening to you who talks about one of the great issues in american life today, which is the plight of

the middle class in america, everybody, right and left, talk about it and care about it. you may deny that, but they do. steve: i do not believe that. charlie: i know you don't. steve: i don't believe that for a second. charlie: i know you don't. steve: it is all happy talk. donald trump cares about them. he has a plan. charlie: i'm just telling you. steve: ok. they also believe that there is, on your part, and the president's part, not enough appreciation for some of the values also that made america great. and you do not appreciate that and you do not appreciate the diversity, do don't appreciate respect for civil rights. you do not appreciate the respect for american values that have been part of the american foundation. and that is what bothers them. they think they saw part of that

in charlottesville, and they want to know where is the better angels of steve bannon and the president? what do you say to them? steve: you see the better angels of the president every day in his actions. i was raised in a desegregated neighborhood. the north side of richmond is predominantly black. i went to an integrated catholic school. i served in the military. in the military, in the 1970's, i think was the one institution that led our country in full integration, ok? my division on my ship, ok, people i served with on my destroyer -- charlie: hey, no -- steve: i do not need to be lectured by a bunch of limousine liberals, ok, from the upper east side of new york and the hamptons, ok? about any of this. my lived experience is that. hang on.

charlie: you have to recognize, it is not just -- steve: hang on. the unifying thing in this country, ok, they can give all the happy talk they want about that. when you come to what -- charlie: and you can denigrate them -- steve: no, if they cared so much, for the black working-class and middle-class in this country, if they cared so much for the hispanic working class and middle class in this country, we would not have the trade deals. we would not have the illegal immigration policy. they would not have looked the other way for 30 years while -- are this it is because those people look the other way. them ok?a solution for , we offer economic nationalism, which will bind this country together. the president or myself do not reach their standards of what they think it is, that is their problem. ok? the longer they spend on that, every day and every second they spend on that, we spend on driving a narrative and driving actions in this country that are going to better everybody, every citizen in this country.

so they should do this, spend their time. you know people by their actions. watch their actions. you are already seeing it. you are already seeing the benefits of economic nationalism today in this country, and you are only going to see more of it. charlie: when you and i started this conversation of doing this interview, i raised several points i was interested in. i wanted to give you an opportunity to talk about economic nationalism because people believe it was a factor in the 2016 election. i'm not sure you have given me with as much candor as you wanted to about jared kushner or h.r. mcmaster or others. i cannot sit here and force you, you know, to reveal more than you want to, but i want you to tell a sense of the reality as you see it, because you are quick to condemn george w. bush and people who supported him because you believe they were, in your judgment, on the wrong side of history in decisions they made. what i have received from you in this conversation is donald

trump -- you believe, is a historic figure. you believe donald trump has been without criticism, and i do not believe you are the kind of person that does not give him -- the same kind of criticism steve: here. . this is him. charlie: and you have not made that criticism here. it is not because i want you to bring down -- i want to hear the truth. i cannot believe someone who is as interested in the socratic dialogue, your words and mine, who doesn't want to hear from someone like you, who has been an eyewitness to history. tell us that history. steve: i think it is playing out over time. one of the things -- it is not a criticism. it is an observation. the observation is donald trump comes from an amazing entrepreneurial and personality-driven business, the real estate business in new york city, the hospitality industry, and media. it is an environment, a milieu a

big personalities. things get done by the way those big personalities interact. washington, d.c. is entirely different. washington, d.c., and i said this before, is a city of institutions. it has institutional memory. whether you are dealing with the defense department, the fbi, the state department. it has a certain way these institutions roll. they have a certain internal logic to them. i think if there is one criticism observation, it is , one that the president, in coming here have still thought it is about personality, if i can change this personality, i can do that. it is not what the institutional logic is. with some of that was with the fbi and others in the state department and how his foreign-policy is playing out. the interagency process, one of the reasons it took so long in afghanistan, he really wanted to understand what the situation was and not just take something that was prebaked. but i believe you are going to

see over time, you will have a greater appreciation that this is a city of institutions, and you must engage them as institutions. charlie: does that mean he will be more "presidential?" steve: by the way, when you say presidential, i think he is very presidential. charlie: fair enough. steve: i think he is very presidential. he uses -- ok. he uses twitter. they used to call me the enabler of the twitter. i think what he does on twitter is extraordinary. he dis-intermediates the media and talks directly to the american people. charlie: it is not a question of going over the head of the media. it is what he says. steve: no, it is what he says and -- the mainstream media -- charlie: no, not the mainstream media. steve: the pearl clutching mainstream media, what they deem as not correct, what they deem as not right. charlie: it is not right or not right. it is a question -- it is not a question of appropriateness. it is a question of whether it is in his interest. that is the point.

not the appropriateness of it. steve: i don't think he needs the washington post and the new york times and cbs news, and i don't believe that he thinks that they are looking out for what is in his best interest. ok? he is not going to believe that. i do believe that, and you don't believe that. ok? this is another standard in judgment that you reign upon him in the effort to destroy donald trump. he knows he is speaking directly to the people who put him in office when he uses twitter. sometimes it is not in the custom and tradition of what the opposition party deems as appropriate -- you are absolutely correct. it is not. he is not going to stop. and by the way, general kelly, i have the most tremendous respect for and has put in very tight processes, he will not be able to control it either because it is donald trump talking directly to the american people. to say something else, you will get some good. every now and again, you will get some less good, but you will

are just going to have to live with it. ♪

emma: i am emma chandra and you are watching "bloomberg technology." president trump says he and the israeli prime minister are giving it a go in the middle east peace process. both leaders are in new york for this week's u.n. general assembly meeting. prime minister netanyahu said israel's alliance with the u.s. has never been stronger than with the trump administration. president trump isn't backtracking on his pledge to withdraw from the paris climate accord. that is according to his chief economic advisor gary cohn. gary cohn told officia