♪ announcer: from our studios in new york city, this is "charlie rose." and lindaim burns becker here to introduce their pbs series about the vietnam war. more than 40 years after the war ended, americans are struggling to make sense of it. it lost more than a decade and cost the lives of 58,000 americans and even more vietnamese. film looks back at the cataclysmic years. the war is a 10-part, 18 hour documentary. it took 10 years to make.

the washington post says it is a masterpiece and a model for assessing our history. here is a look at the trailer. ♪ shutthink the vietnam war a stake into the heart of america. we have never moved far away from that. we never recovered. there was no way we could avoid telling this story. wars are revealing. it is the worst of humanity but also the best of humanity. >> there has been a lot done on this subject. documentaries, feature films, novels. -- it is not like not have ever tried but it remains a piece of unfinished business and american history. and it isades past important to go back and try to understand it. >> the heroes are the men that

side. their loyalty and courage under fire. it was phenomenal. you would ask itself how does america produce young man like this? >> we wanted to get to know the people and the place and spend time there. try to figure out how we do what we do and vietnam was a challenge. one american side. in vietnam, there is a winning side there is a losing side. they were our enemy and ally. there are so many different perspectives and we tried to bring them all together. the most ambitious project we have undertaken. pbs is the only place it could happen done. >> i think the country is ready to have a conversation we never had about the war. >> the film is not an answer but a set of questions on what happens.

joining me now with the filmmakers. lynn nova i am pleasedk. to have both of them back at the table. these are friends of mine. i am hugely admiring their work. this and other things. the war left so many questions. divides thehat country about vietnam? ken: the experience for americans was great. most of the kids fighting about it were children of world war ii, veterans, are you someone who was a world war ii veteran. it also didn't turn out very well for us. we did a couple of things. we left it unexamined and very

our head in the sand or we retreated to our hardened silos were we have a definite opinion or argument that is without any factual base. we try to the last decade to take advantage of 40 years of new scholarship and access to the country and also willingness , civilians and veterans, viacom, sister asking that question. what happened? decade notat answering it but fully investigating all the aspects of why the war remains this lightning rods. charlie: is it an achievement because you insisted on this? we see the vietnamese side and

you're the vietnamese voices. once it no how they saw -- we want to know how they felt what we saw. mark.i was a big question be challenging but no more challenging than fighting veterans and other people who experienced board to tell their stories. i was a painful, tragic events. people are reluctant to speak about it there. shunned 2:00 in vietnam because it was so painful, the skill of tragedy and lost was monumental and the government has perpetuated the story of the war that doesn't have people in it. it is a grand political narrative. charlie: therefore, they were resistant to open up? lynn: paradoxically that's true they were also willing because there was an opportunity to tell a human story that they don't normally have the chance to do. part of her job was to find the people who are willing to openly

and describe the true horrors and terrors of the war and the losses. every family and vietnam lost at least one person. you set up to do this 10 years ago. what did you know you had to have? you had to have people who fought the war. you needed the people on both sides. you needed to know the facts that led them to war. ken: that is right. we needed to unpack everything that had happened in a war that became superficial and --ression -- in prisons imprisoned. we had to have antiwar demonstrators and deserters and military families torn apart by political questions, as well as

policy from the pentagon. as well as reporters were anxious to go there and report on the triumph of democracy over this people communism. only when they got there they realized the reports from the field were not what the press officers in saigon or the pentagon were saying. twothen we have these presidents, johnson nx and, who were tape-recording themselves andforgotten it -- johnson nixon. we are trying to do a lot of of story of so-called ordinary people and then you have this more abstract top-down policy consideration. but when you have a guy making that policy showing his anxieties and his concerns, or you hear -- charlie: he is almost crying out to his friends saying what do i do. he doesn't want his friends to

die. hide, or makerun, it stop. you feel that tension. with nixon, you hear the calculation that run counter to what the positive public pronouncements are about the war. charlie: including the generals. lynn: what is devastating if are getting advice that it will not work out. they get accurate advice from the cia intelligence. this is not going well and it will not work out and yet somehow the option to not do it is not an option that it has been taken seriously. johnson was scared of the idea that he might be the person to lose a war. lynn: exactly. ken: and nixon spent four years kind of doing this flight of handtrick -- slight of

trick so he is not the president who lost the war. he focused on prisoners of war and he made it not about south vietnam but something else. there was a lot of smoke and beers but there were a lot of dead americans and vietnamese, by the hundreds of thousands in the latter case. there is a lot of explaining to do. we do not have a political agenda or an ax to grind. sure we can to make bulldoze into our audience's view no matter how complicated. in itself a kind of editing and simplification of complex stuff. what we tried to do in the hallmark of the 10 years was was relishing and what we did not know so we complete our baggage behind also relishing in the fact that every single thing we will talk about was more complicated than we thought. even when we knew was complicated, it got even more

complicated. we tried to make a film that would obtain those and we can trust in our audience to put it together however they wanted to. you think we should still be there and the anon, there's a place for you in this film. if you do for the beginning it was wrong, there is a place for you. -- moretly, importantly, it has people and example that represents the confusing strifes. are in -- undergoing startling psychological changes. -- how isow this it reflected in political life today? not? how is it we thought the half-life of the war was still playing out in our political life. the mistrust of government, the lack of faith in ourselves and our abilities to do good in the world.

the differentiation of tension between classes. urban, rural, working class. the things falling apart. that kind of feeling very much bubbled up in vietnam and exploded in 1968, and epic year, which is coming up on sunday night in our show. this is a part -- this is a sense that it is coming apart at the seams and we do not like each other very much and we cannot have a simple conversation about something very important. we will the root of all of that you can find in "the vietnam war ." charlie: your story began with americans leaving the embassy and you will always that to 1858. ken: that is when the french takeover and that grand, patronizing, colonial way. .ndochina

they plow forward very quickly into the end of world war ii, where americans are essentially on the side of your gmail -- yo and savingming him his life. we are caught in a dilemma, which is our natural inclination is americans, the original anti-colonialists, is to go with this guy declaring indian -- declaring independence citing thomas jefferson or our allies who may fall into the soviet rule. it is an overlay of so many things. this cold war dynamic. good and evil and we know who was good and we know who was evil. a lot of the mistakes are the super imposition of this will list sense that if we cannot

globalist sense. this was a proxy war. the casualties are immediately the truth, the culture of the people, the language, the traditions, on the ground that will influence people. you are now faced with a guerrilla movement, it is not going to turn out well for you. charlie: let's talk more about what you did in this film. ward's words. adon't think he ever wrote script as beautiful as this. you do not turn in the script and that is it and it is printed, it undergoes 20 or 30 revisions. you are constantly learning. he is a main member of the team.

lynn: we do have a political agendas of the writing was important to not have opinions. to explain what happens in a very neutral way without a lot shading ones and way or another. just tell what happens in a direct way and make it come to life. jeff would say i need to talk to about something. he would say there is an adjective or adverb and i think it is too much. let us take that out because all that does is put an imperceptible thumb on the scale and we do not want that there. ♪

♪ things: you use all the that made all your films great. use photographs and their classic photographs coming out of vietnam. these people who are the ground, including a young marine named car. the great fortune that he was in the marines and then he went into business. for 25 or 30 years he worked on a novel that cannot get published. when we started on the film his book game out after 30 years. tterhorn" was his first published work. yourlled him up and said,

book is incredible. it tells the story of the war that we have never seen. charlie: is this the guy who went to yale? lynn: yes. he was in the marine corps officer training program when he was about to graduate yale. he was uncomfortable because the antiwar movement was powerful. fish out of a water. he was shocked about the president would like to people. he was a naive country boy from oregon. he was awarded a rhodes scholarship and the marines said he could do his service in vietnam after the scholarship. feltnt to oxford and guilty to being a comfortably while other americans were fighting and dying in the anon that he gave up -- in vietnam that he gave up his scholarship vietnam. to th this is about the wrenching stories of battles that people

will fight on hills and in rice paddies. he went back and got a philosophy degree. he is a philosopher of war and he thought deeply of what it means to go to war. carl: when of the things i learned in the war is we are not the top species on the planet because we are nice. we are a very aggressive species. it is in us. thele talk a lot about how military turns kids is a killing machine. i will always argue it is finishing school. but we do with civilization as we learn to inhibit -- what we do with civilization is learned to inhibit these aggressive tendencies and we have to recognize that. i recognize a whole country that doesn't recognize it. think about how many times we get into scrapes of the nation because we are always the good

guys.i think if we thought we were not the good guys would get in fewer wars. the question you raised about why the war is so painful ka divisive for us, i think rl's getting up at an offense because there is a cognitive dissonance with who we think we are at the country. the triumphant experience in doing the right thing for the right reasons at a tremendous cost. that is ingrained in our dna. vietnam was not the opposite but it undermines that sense and called into question our exceptionalism and destiny and we have not been able to figure out what happened and how we feel about it because of that. --hink what carl is being karl is saying is part of the issue. charlie: you do sense that soldiers are either side come to appreciate the great tree and humanity of the other side.

ken: this is what i found in any war we have ever studied, no more so than in the civil war, but also here which is the side.ng wenches separated policy and strategy and tactics, which go out the window the second the firing starts, then you are human beings whom you have asked to do very terrible things on both sides and they become very similar to us. we enjoy sharing this with howed it tod -- we s john mccain. he wanted to see what the north vietnamese talked about. you begin to see what happens on the front line at the point of combat were none of us who haven't experienced it how vivified life is, they say not just the worst of us with every rest of us. vietcongthis is a

soldier who recognize the humanity of the enemy he was fighting. ken: word is the ultimate dehumanization of the other. to fight a war you have to create a one-dimensional portion

-- he other so you charlie: see you are not nervous about pulling the trigger. ken: exactly. then you get into war and using the pact you make with the devil, there are gaps in it. you can see the other side in his case. with the americans, we have a marine talking about how scared he was and how much you respected and hated all in the same breath the people he was fighting. colonel an american that says i would like to have 200 of these of viet cong. he said they are the finest soldiers after he had held them off. after holding them off for days and days and days, a fighter pilot says in war you have to get on the right side. i really have respect for the people down there that kept the ho chi minh trail open.

i am telling you, i'm unhappy and was able to stop traffic there. those my job. lynn: we translated the entire bill into vietnamese -- the into vietnamese. hundreds of thousands of people in vietnam are watching as we speak. there is great interest there. charlie: the irony we have come to us we have a good relationship with vietnam. lynn: we have a potentially common enemy. charlie: an ally and whatever competition we have with china. ken: they are as conflicted about the war now as we are. r -- they have great -- they have a whole southern population were people were not involved and they haven't figured out how to reconcile. their strategy is they would not count cost. which means they have those 3 million casualties and their agonizing could we have done it better could we have done it negotiations?

i think of the same way we are struggling, they are struggling. perhaps the fact that our two they'res come together, a forward thinking people, they represent not just economic but a strategic partner for us, you sort of wish we could skip to the reconciliation part right away. twolie: i want to get to things. ho chi minh was not necessarily the most powerful person. the george washington of the vietnam independence movements. he founded the army of the resistance movement. he is great and became a figurehead to his people and the world. f was the faith of the -- the ace of the revolution. but he was competing with aggressive hardliners who were engaging in more violence, but

he was more moderate and try to temper that. he lost his power. as thegnize another man person we were fighting if an ordinary grunt on the viet cong were north vietnamese thought it was johnson or richard nixon. charlie: take a look at this. tim o'brien is someone we knew who has written well about the innominate other things. he said i will do this on one condition, that you include gold star mothers. lynn: yes, he did. ken: it was the best advice we got. charlie: tim o'brien on the courage of the and on. vietnam. ♪ tim: somewhere around 80% of our casualties came from landmines.

just to get up in the morning and look out at the lands and think in a few minutes, i will be walking out there and will my quirks be there ever there -- corpse be there or there? out there? a leg i always thought of courage as charging enemy bunkers. but just to walk in their day after day through villages up through the mountains, just to make your legs move was an act of courage.they were living in sioux city , it wouldn't be courageous to isk to the grocery store and have your legs move back and forth. and the anon it was great. i would look at my legs as i walked saying, how would a do this? it is not just landmines.

i think it is the existential question of war. what happens to you? charlie: an interesting point. women who fight war don't like ideas of winning and losing, do the? = -- do they? ton: we haven't spoken veterans of all kinds. at this point, the veterans who have been in that place that can was describing, they are not interested in -- when i say what do you want the world to know about this, they want people making decisions to think about the real cost of war. it is easy to start a war and young men and women get chewed up. the people making decisions are not thinking about the actual human cost. these guys know what it was. it has been going around the saytry and hearing them

what's on the people who make these decisions think about what the true cost is. people come home with no arms and legs. people are badly damaged psychologically. mothers lose their sons. the soldiers we met in vietnam was the only one of six young men from his apartment building to come back home. the hearing that with him. charlie: the same thing on the vietnamese side. there is a mother who lost six sons. you asked all the soldiers why they fought. conducted a box for my country - - they don't say i fought for my country. they fought for the guy next to them. lynn: it was about saving your money. i was well known in world war ii. our military figured out that was how you train people.

was quite, it wrenching because there wasn't that overarching thought that it was the right thing to do. charlie: it was unambiguous. ken: that alters the dynamic. you can see in the photograph of the clip of the americans grieving genuinely over the body of what is clearly a friend, not on yourabstract person side. it is a buddy, a loved one. charlie:. -- here isomotiva vincent on people who died. nt: the real euros are the men that side. 19, 20-year-old high school dropouts. they didn't have escape routes that the wealthy or privileged had.

that was unfair. they looked upon military services, like the weather. you had to go in and you do it. but to see these kids who have they would beain, rewarded for their service in vietnam. their patients, their loyalty to each other, their courage under fire was just phenomenal. yourself, how does america produce young men like this -- you would ask yourself, how does america produce young man like this? charlie: the soundtrack was the soundtrack of america in the 60's. ken: it was. we got nine inch nails to produce music.

we were able to enjoy through the efforts of our producers 120 songs from the period. from the rolling stones, beatles, bob dylan. had a not realize what we were doing and willing to take artists like the beatles who never licensed stuff to license full day in let us an interrater music, which was andeminal to the time sometimes commenting on the times which i hope make the narrative that much more authentic. charlie: speak about how you cover the significance and impact of the antiwar movement, which included veterans throwing their metals. ton: it was very interesting see this.

the antiwar movement began as the civil rights movement in the early 60's. that any war was wrong. more and more americans got sucked in and more information came back to the u.s. of the s that of american bombing was happening in vietnam. the antiwar movement group. draft calls grew. the draftair the way was implemented. there was tension around that. essentially, the antiwar movement grew and grew and had more and more presence in our society. it also is not representative of every american's point of view. american public has an

evolving perspective on the war and never wants to lose. eventually, by 1968, the antiwar movement, moral questioning of the war, the relentless casualties, the lack of credibility in the white house turns the public against the war. ♪ >> i never considered the vietnamese our enemy. he never did anything to threaten the security of the united dates. they were off 10,000 miles away minding their own business and we went to their country, told him what kind of government we wanted them to have. i see the war protesters. intellectually, i understood the rights of the freedom of speech, but i will tell you that when i see them waving nlf flax, the

enemy, that i and my friend had to fight and some of my friend had to die fighting, that doesn't fit very well with me. on november 15, 1969, half a million citizens turned out against the war in washington again. provided anuses impenetrable wall around the white house. president nixon claimed he was too busy watching football on television to pay attention, but he did suggest that army helicopters might be used to blow out the marchers' candles. hundreds of thousands of others demonstrated in san francisco and new york. charlie: there were many times

it overturned when cronkite went over. it was broadcast on cbs. ken: we'll be discovered in our research was that that wasn't true. charlie: cronkite didn't say it? didn't say it. cronkite came back with someone with so much experience of war and had a dynamic commentary at the end of the broadcast. it is really an important moment in american history and i cannot say johnson is uninfluenced by the decision he will make, but there are other things happening. johnson did not say that. that is one of the things that we carried around as part of our baggage and we had to lose it in favor of much more complicated dynamics that obtain throughout the story of this complicated -- go ahead. lynn: there was this relentless stream of casualties and no progress.

no sense of when this will be over. how do we know when we won? ken: once again, the conventional wisdom was had kennedy lived, he would not have gotten us in there. he took on the entire foreign-policy apparatus. charlie: johnson inherited it. ken: you can hear johnson's hawkishness. there is a memo circulating around it that it is so damaged that it reveals we were there 70% to save face, 20% to contain china, and 10% for the good of the vietnamese people. that is an early, cynical memo that was one of the devastating evidences that what they are saying publicly is not what they -- know.believe and no

we will continue the conversation. i know you have to go. thank you for coming. ken: thank you, charlie. charlie: george funding being one of them. the national security adviser two presidents kennedy and the president johnson. here is what johnson is saying to him expressing his doubts. ohnson: the more i think -- if youon't know ask me, it looks like we getting into another korea. we just got to think about -- i will get this sergeant of mine. a little old kid thinking what in the hell have i ordered him out there for?

what is it worth to me? what is it worth to this country? we have a treaty but the hell, everyone else has a treaty and we are not doing anything. that is the trouble. that is what i have the world is going to do it this thing comes apart on us. that is the dilemma. the -- action will take will it take though? kilis. people as possible were the offensive is as low as possible. >> it would not down the entire anti-communist movement. lynn: i find one of the most devastating pieces of footage is the 1960's and senator had hearings to discuss what was going on in vietnam.

he brought the author of the containment philosophy. this is basically, we have to contain communism. if we are not in vietnam, i see no reason why we should be involved, he said. i don't think you'll make any difference. our credibility is fine and we should not worry about a little problem on the other side of the world. i'm paraphrasing, but that is essentially what he said. johnson keeps pursuing the same policy. ♪

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♪ charlie: when you came to this project, having worked with ken on the other films, what was your own sense of vietnam? lynn: i knew it was something terrible that happened and that our country was torn apart. i was born in 1962. i was a child. was theret memories was this were happening and it is terrible and people are dying here and at the end on and children are -- here and in vietnam and children are getting killed. the country was in the angst moments and we didn't seem to get out of it. when you are a kid your sense of time was different. and never seemed to end and i did not understand it.

i sort of became obsessed to figure out what was it, what happens, why. i've read all of the books since all documentaries. i was always feeling like someday, ken and i will tackle the vietnam war because it is this thing we do not understand and it is important. charlie: you've gone from the vietnam war to ernest hemingway. lynn: yes. that has been a has project for a long time. wonderingey west and about the human being that created those remarkable works of art. problem projects we do our things we do not know much about, at least in my case. we get paid to find out the answers to lots of questions. go back andant to show you a clip from robert mcnamara. talking and the idea was how he saw the war and what he realized in the years

. >> ho chi minh was not a chefwer of stalin and crew stalin, which i thought he was at the time. the war in south vietnam was not a war of aggression. i believed it was a silver award. i believed it was the power of nationalism at stake. at least under those circumstances, no foreign army can substitute for the people of that country deciding the civil themselves. is impossible. these believes may seem obvious to you. they were not obvious to me five years ago. charlie: that was robert mcnamara coming to that conclusion. lynn: a little late. say, it was

obvious to him but it was in a secret either. -- i cannotn that explain that what he had fixed ideas and wasn't open to hearing information that contradicted that. there were several people who pretend during the course of the war who try to explain to him you have to take him human dimensions that the government was not stable in the bombing wasn't working. he says, no one tells me these things. said, you officials just don't ask. there's a sense of having reuters on. robert mcnamara was the giants -- having blinders on. was a giant of washington.

here is not asking the right questions. he was not alone. charlie: journalists went over thinking they would see this in the quickly realized it was something else. there are many reporters who came there with one idea and came back with another. many soldiers who came back with the idea that it was going to be an easy victory, that we have all the firepower in the world, that the vietnamese wanted us to be there to help them throw off the communist aggression. soldiers quickly realized it was not working the way it was post too. if there had been -- the way it was supposed to. if they have been open to seeing what was happening, maybe they uld be open to seeing there were other possibilities. charlie: there is something that says when a young man goes to war, and mother goes with him because they suffer an indoor and feel. sometimes they have the horror the pentagonrom

knocking on their door. lynn: that is devastating. i have the privilege of speaking genean rick crawford -- crocker who lost her son. her husband had been the one to talk about it if anyone asked. she wanted to tell this story. i think she thought by sharing her grief and her family's loss all, her son was away in vietnam and not knowing if he would come home. not knowing what to do with that. him wheretters from he was clearly despairing and not sure about what was happening to him. to manage that is happening in real time and that to tell us about the day when the news came to their house.

was the worst day of her entire life. i don't know how she did it. i don't. charlie: so many of them were so young. lynn: so young. he was 19. charlie: a year out of high school. lynn: yes. the grief for that loss is forever. they live their lives, it is never the same. there is courage and getting up every day and getting out of bed. charlie: who are the heroes of your film? war?eople who fought the or the people unconscious conscious who risked things to oppose the war? us is ae story for sense of what does it mean to be a hero. certainly, it is to be a soldier and raven figure buddies and to do courageous things under fire and the selflessness of that is admirable and gets rewarded and medals, hopefully,

recognition. that that isestion a relic. it is also wrote to stand up to your country if you think it is not doing the right. war,e who protested the some of them were soldiers who thought it was wrong. that was brave too. there are people in the film who wrestled with their conscience getting drafted late in the war and new more about the war then people to the early years. the courageous thing would be to go to canada or to jail and that theyeling guilt went to war instead. it kind of up and your notion of what it means to be a hero. general tell me about -- a general you interviewed who had a chance to see the film. lynn: he is a remarkable human

being. he was a very successful fighter the aird he rose to be force chief of staff after the war. he was running the air force during the first gulf war. he is smarter, knowledgeable, and curious about the anon. he was there and 68 and 69. he could see the war was not going well and he thought his job was to bring the guys home. he overall big picture could see was it wasn't going to work out. with the war was over, he tried about the war from a military perspective. he was trying to stop the traffic on the ho chi minh trail and that frustrates him to this day. he became a student. why couldn't we do it? we dropped bombs and it still didn't work. he was deeply interested in that. -- we werearing

prepared to go to vietnam and talk to the people under him. what they would want to know from him. they have a conversation even though they never met. he helped us come to screening them with the film a little bit removed having been there. he has been indispensable. charlie: the war was divisive. it split the country apart. this war is probably the most divisive war this country have spots. -- has fought since the civil war. lynn: it is very painful to this day. we talk to people who still get upset, even if you bring up the work be in on. a lot of people said they cannot watch the film because it will be too painful. or why he wants to make a film about the vietnam war? it is throwing salt in the wind. we think maybe by shedding light

on the story, we can get the --ntry away to talk about it i hate to use the word healing, but people can come to the screenings with many perspectives and i think because of the courage of the people speaking and their honesty about their own feelings about what they went through and eight friday of perspectives -- there is something about the way people are open to telling their stories. we have seen it over and over again as we have been going around the country showing clips as we developed the story. because 50,000 people died. we can't come to any consensus about why. interview 18 hours and 10 episodes to tell the story.

did you tell the story wanted to tell? lynn: that is a great question. we started it was just an idea. it will be for the eyes of ordinary people in america and be a non-. we will find out what happens. if we could have predicted what the film would look like, i do not think it would be possible. it exceeded our expectations in every possible way. the nature of the testimony, the variety of perspectives, the genius of our editors, the access we had in vietnam. we couldn't not we would get back to we didn't know we could bring back many different ways thevietnamese felt during war. the generosity of the south vietnamese. the vietnamese americans who suffered as a national a lot of a country and family members and are here trying to make spirit. sony google opens their hearts to us and our job was to -- so many people opened their hearts

to us and our job was to try to fill in the pieces. will it make sense? will it be coherent? will it shed light? i think everyone who worked on this is very honored to have been part of this effort. charlie: once you finish it, tell me what that is like. this is a 10-year project. were you working on other projects along? -- all along? lynn: yes. we were working on people who were incarcerated who are going to college. this one, ish certainly cried. many people were emotional because it feels like the most challenging work he had ever ever done.had it was the most meaningful and it was a joy to work on it every day. all of us who talking about it last night, we watched episode

people.th a number of everyone is happy to see the film go out and very sad we don't get to work on it anymore. charlie: thank you for joining us and congratulations. lynn: thank you for having me. charlie: can have the lead. lynn: thank you for keeping me. 20 mention a couple of things. letvietnam war continues -- me mention a couple of things. " continues. war book bys a remarkable jeffrey ward and his own sort of brilliance with language. all of that here on pbs. it is as good as pbs does. thank you for joining us. see you next time. ♪

♪ yvonne: 7:00 a.m. here in hong kong, live from bloomberg's asian headquarters. i am yvonne man. president trump increases the pressure north korea, sanctioning anyone doing business with kim jong on. pyongyang fires back, saying the president is deranged and america will pay dearly for its comments at the u.n. >> i am kathleen hays in new york where it is just past 7:00 p.m. this friday. elsewhere, china downgraded for the first time in 18 years. s&p global reading points to foreign debt. new calls in tokyo