♪ >> from our studios in new york city, this is "charlie rose." charlie: we begin this evening with a continued search for answers in las vegas. here is the cbs evening news. >> investigations are no closer to understanding what allowed this what inspired 64-year-old even cried out to create such carnage. his preparations were so elaborate including placing cameras of his room that investigators believe he may have had an accomplice. the sheriff of las vegas county. >> stephen paddock is a man who spent decades acquiring weapons and ammo and living a secret life, much of which will never be fully understood.

>> everybody go. >> this new video obtained by the review journal shows the harrowing moments as the attack and folded. -- attack unfolded. police pinpointed a more exact timeline. at he fired the first shots. 0:05 p.m.,seven minutes later, the shooting stopped. at 10:18, he fired 200 rounds through the door of his room, wounding a security guard in the leg. after that, he fired the more bullets into the music festival. he may have had more in mind. >> you suggested that after he saw the security guard, he became concerned. did you see any evidence that he planned to survive this, as an escape? >> yes. reporter: what was that? >> i cannot tell you. shotter: at 11:20, he

through the door. some of his shots also hit the aviation fuel tanks on the edge of the airports. investigators are trying to determine whether those are stray bullets or he intended the tanks. >> this guy is absolutely the bogeyman. retired froms man the police department is a consultant for cbs news. works he used tremendous tactics, and this showed training. who helped him and trained him to use those weapons as he did? ♪ charlie: puerto rico continues to reel in the aftermath of hurricane maria. half the population does not have access to drinking water. more than two weeks after the storm. 95% of the power grid remains down. the official death toll is 34 but the government says -- the governor says he expects the number to rise. cbs news correspondent david has been reporting from the hardest hit areas of the island. here is a look at some of his reporting. reporter: residents of puerto

waitedwa --ded --wade throughd the mess left behind by hurricane maria. flooding is widespread in the -- in island, and electricity is nonexistent. police and volunteers are working to rescue people trapped by maria's storm surge. they helped this man and his stock yet to dry land. >> they are talking to people and asking them what the situation is in their home. across islands, states that do not look like rivers are covered that look like rivers are covered in power line. maria's winds crushed a week -- a weak power grid. before hitting vertigo it hit dominicana. the death toll has climbed to more than 15 and the search for the missing continues. the dominican republic saw whipping winds and rain when the storm passed through the island today is a category 3. maria is moving towards turks and caicos.

president trump from that approved a disaster federation for puerto rico. >> how does it feel to know that aid is coming? >> very happy. with so many committees cut off, the full extent of the damage is not yet known. charlie: i am pleased to have bea at this table. gnaud guest: thank you, it is great to be here. you have covered a lot of stories, where do you put this one? david: it got worse after that report. it has gotten worse. i have never covered a national disaster where the emergency was endless. 15 days out, and it is still an emergency! charlie: is that because of the or is it because puerto rico was not prepared for this, can you ever deeper prayer? destiny ever be prepared? charlie: or is it because the rescue effort was too slow?

-- thesident stood on governor stood on the podium and said that we are getting what we need but we need more things. and i asked him, what do you need to move this from an emergency situation? and he said i need extra , helicopters and buses. they didn't have the bus cars because they couldn't get there, their homes were badly damaged that they had to stay behind with her family. they could not move the supplies. the island was paralyzed by the hurricane. they knew what was coming, the governor had predicted that they might lose power. but do you know how long some places could be without power? up to a year. charlie: i think i said this with you on the air. there is a woman in my apartment who was just able to talk to her mother in the last couple of days. he could not reach her. there must be a thousand cases like that. >> i am got on a plane and drugstore rental car days before

the storms, that was only way they could check on their family. how will puerto rico recover? >> charlie, they are in bankruptcy, the phosphor bankruptcy this year. they have a dilapidated infrastructure, their power grid, they would have to replace it. if anything the governor says , this could be what puerto rico needed. they couldn't get the money before the storm so now they will have to have it. there are still places with no running water. people are still drinking water from a stream and bathing in it. today, we heard that they are now sending fuel tankers to isolated areas on the island which have been deemed areas of special need. those tankers will be positioned in those municipalities. what took 15 days to get them -- questione the reporter mark what took 15 days? david: we asked the government, and we do not get any answers. i said why do you keep asking for help.

you said you were able to get through to every municipality. he said we think the food will go to a distribution area in the middle of town but people do not know it is there and we cannot reach them because there is no phone communication. five sets, what are you going to do? and he said, we are using megaphones. and i will encourage the mayors to go around using them, and if a cannot do it that way, we will use a helicopter with an intercom system to do it. charlie: president trump came and it was not what they had expected, from many accounts, in a variety of ways. this is your report on his visit to puerto rico earlier this week. here it is. president trump: there is a lot of love in this room. david: president trump and the first lady were greeted by a friendly audience and one of the fastest areas to recover from the hurricane. the president headed out supplies, tossing paper towels into the crowd. he also toured neighborhoods and

spoke to victims whose homes have been damaged by the hurricane. pres. trump: we are going to help you out. have a good time. it is great to see you. david: they got a look at the destruction by helicopter. they did not visit the harder hit areas of the island where there is no running water or power forcing people to drink and debate with stream water. during their briefing earlier in the day, he praised the federal government's response but seems to downplay the devastation of maria, comparing it to that of hurricane katrina. president trump: if you look at a real catastrophe like hurricane katrina and you look at the tremendous, hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people who died, you can be proud that all of our people and all of your people are working together. david: mr. trump appeared to criticize the u.s. territory for their more than $70 billion debt. pres. trump: i hate to tell you puerto rico, but enough during our budget a little bit out of whack because we spend a lot of money on puerto rico. david: later, he seemed to suggest the debts may be forgiven. pres. trump: they a lot of money

to our friends on wall street and we will have to wait that -- what that out, we need to look at their debt structure. david: not long after the president-elect, the governor on the island said that the decibel toll had risen from 60 to 34. the other causes range from anxiety, heart attack, suicide, and lack of oxygen. oxygen patients who were in their home and died when the power run out. david beg note, -- naud, and cbs news, san juan, puerto rico. charlie: you have become so identified with the story. a friend of mine said david is so into this story. if he ever comes to new york i love to meet him. you have become an internet sensation as well. what does this do in terms of the way people look at you down there and puerto rico? do they think you, mr. reporter, must have answers for us? david: i think it was the only place they were getting answers.

and you know, charlie, it started with this. i will never forget going to the airport and they were 900 to 1000 people laid out. there was no power, no ac, it was dark, no one had food and water. there were kids were stripped naked by their parents sleeping in their own sweat while their parents defend them with cardboard. i went to the governor that morning about eight hours later and i said, do you know what is going on in the airport? and he said, we saw your report and we ordered supplies to go there. and i said you don't understand, i just left, and they have not gotten there. and within an hour they had. i get a lot of questions as to how our journalists should go and how far in the story you should be. i did not hand out food and water when i was relentless in pursuing answers to question the people deserved. i did not go there with an agenda. i have never been to puerto rico , i do not know what we can people and i do not know much about the culture but i do know this, they are some of the most resilient and patient people

that i have ever met in the face of a natural disaster. charlie: back in a moment. for cbs news. ♪

♪ charlie: "mike hunter" is the new netflix aries set in the late 1970's and depicts the emerging behavioral science unit within the fbi. jonathan groff plays an fbi agent who travels the country.

and also hoped mcelheny. the interview convicted serial killers. here is a look at the trailer. >> it is not easy betraying people. physically and mentally i don't think people realize. you need to vent. there are a lot more like me. >> do you think so? >> 40 years ago, your fbi is founded by hunting down john dillinger. now, we have extreme violence between strangers. >> we travel around the country and teach fbi techniques to police. >> she was found cuffed and attached to the bed. >> what people will not do to each other. >> how can we help? >> we are using every resource that we can. >> are criminals board or are they formed?

-- are they born or are they formed? >> psychopaths think there was nothing wrong with them so they are virtually impossible to study. but you have found a way, in a near-perfect laboratory conditions. >> hello, ladies. >> that is what this makes it so exciting and so far-reaching. >> it is not our job to commiserate with these people. it is our job to electrocute them. >> they cannot like everything we do. we are talking to serial killers. >> serial killers. >> it will bite you in the ass. >> so young, to be running people's lives. >> what did you do? >> you are developing a pattern of you have your here. course i cannot help you. >> how do we get ahead of crazy if we do not know how crazy thinks? >> you have to get in the dirt with the picks. ♪ charlie: joining me are the

executive producer and director. i am pleased to have both the director and the two star actors here at the table. we're witnessing an extraordinary thing happening, a horrific thing happening. the questions that they are thatg, are the questions your characters, based on real-life people are asking. what makes people do this? i think, if anybody has interest in true crime, it is always that, right? it is always a thing you cannot quite touch it, you cannot get at, you cannot understand why they do what they do. charlie : is the insanity? guest: there is always a huge argument against the insanity plea when someone has plotted so carefully so as not to be caught. >> they know the difference between right and wrong? >> exactly, so if someone has

gone through the motions and fantasized for a long enough time, they have worked out all of the problems, so is there an insanity defense there? probably not. charlie: what questions would you be asking if you are in las vegas? if the two characters who you play were in las vegas? and you cannot talk to him, since he shot himself? >> nobody lives to be in their 60's and suddenly wakes up one day and decide to commit mass murder without any kind of warning signs. without any previous criminal behavior of any kind. i would be trying to figure out what were the things that led him to that point. charlie: which brings me to this subject. what was it that your character,

the approach, -- do not want to say empathy, but what was the approach that make you say, what is this guy doing? and where is he coming from? as a young agent who believes that there is a better way to try to figure this out? guest: i think on the show, we are trying to figure out if we can fake empathy in order to understand them possible to understand. i think along the way, we glean this is a time in the late 70's when all of this information and the idea of doing this was very new. they acquire systems of labeling , complement lysing the different kinds of killers. but i think ultimately, part of the reason people are so fascinated with the real killers endlessly, is because you can ask as many questions as you want to, and i do not know if we'll ever get an answer. charlie: nor do you know if they even know.

right? -- you, sir. [laughter] what is it about you and -- [laughter] >> nobody sent me the remake of breakfast at tiffany's. charlie: they didn't want you to do that over? guest: >> i don't know. : i can only fall back on my -- i cannot apologize enough. charlie: we can fall back on things you have done before and say that there is something within you that asks yourself, where does this operation come om? guest: when we were doing the rounds at quantico in trying to indoctrinate ourselves and look at what they had to offer, you round the corner under the library and there is a life-size >> or fiberglass rendering of hannibal lecter. obviously, john doe from seven, those movies came out around the same time and they were both

sort of in the mold of serial killer as you know, why the core unity is super genius. as i was talking? >> to the woman who was giving us the two were, she asked me, is this show going to be like "fellas of the lamps?" -- lambs?".of the i said, i do not want to talk about the gourmet, animal expert. to me, these are very sad people under -- who have grown up under horrendous circumstances. how is not to overstate much empathy or sympathy we should have for them, it is simply a fact. and it becomes, and we have seen so much of this sort of literally conceit of -- there is a very fine line which separates

the hunters from the hunted. and i really thought that it was time to take that back and make it really -- the reason that we are fascinated with them, is because we are nothing like them. they are unfathomable, and we cannot see -- >> when he looked at a number of them, do they share any comment -- >> of course. there is a lot of commonality. the show is a series of conversations. charlie: somebody bought a book and is based on a book written by former fbi -- david: yes. the king of profilers from the fbi. you too, tell me about the dynamic of the two characters. charlie: that is part of the dynamics, is it not? on whichare two guys these characters are based on and one of them is not with us any longer. one of them was a creative consultant on our show. as we got into trying to divide

the mythology, who did what? who went where? who was the first person to say x, it got extremely complicated. who is thehal creator and kind of the head writer of the show, he decided, i need to be able to divide this legwork as i need, in order to be able to dramatize it. so he was the one who said, i am going to call this guy at, and it will call this other guy this, and i am going to make a crazy quilt of whatever sort of behavioral impetus i need. charlie: when he comes talking about these ideas, your character is what? you look at it with skepticism, or kind of, convince me? this is not my experience, so you have to convince me? >> when we meet the character i play, he is in a failing marriage, a troubled son who is adopted and has created a lot of problems in his marriage. he is not someone interested in

the bureaucracy at quantico or the politics and the brown nosing that he would need to do in order to get a promotion. he teaches road school. he travels around the country and he teaches the latest fbi investigative techniques to local cops. and in a sense, he is running away. i think of him as kind of floundering, he has almost kind of forgotten why was? -- he has happens almost forgotten why was important to be an fbi agent. life, hismes into my enthusiasm and intelligence really kind of revitalizes me in a sense, and makes me remember what it was that i loved about being an fbi agent. charlie: what is it that you have, other than use and enthusiasm? [laughter] isn't a new idea?

what has made you different? that one of the things that is interesting about the show is that when you meet holden in the first episode, he is a little bit lost. the very first scene in the show, he is in a hostage negotiation situation, and the guy shoots himself in the face. and he says,e fbi i did everything by the book, and somebody died, and i am really confused. perhaps we are going about this in the wrong way. of --k it is symbolic hoover was running the fbi up until the early 70's and there was this sort of black and white vision of what crime was -- go and get the bad guys and we succeeded. and the era of the 70's was coming into the fbi a little bit, holden meeting the girl who gets a phd and studying sociologist, so he gets his mind kind of blown.

he has this sort of existential crisis looking for purpose and meaning and a better way to run his work at the fbi. he gets stuck with this guy, teaching behavioral science at road school all over the country, and through a strange set of circumstances he finds himself sitting across the room from ed kemper, who we now know is a serial killer. charlie: here is the scene. >> it is more of a research thing. >> research? >> just a series of interviews. individuals, not unlike yourself. -- we're justking talking, i do not have to go someplace and do some test? >> no,. >> why? >> because i believe it could be useful. >> talking about what?

>> i do not know. your behavior, i guess. if you want to, that is. you do not have to talk about anything at all, if you do not want to. >> why are you so tense? >>hmm? >> you are tense, right now. >>. no, i'm not tense. [laughter] charlie: hold that thought. take a look at this. this is holt's character talking to jonathan about the same inquiry. here it is. hold: he is telling you what he guessed you want to hear. >> why would you want to hear that? aboutause you told him your sassy girlfriend and you sensitive character and your university education, and he tailored himself to it. why do you feel the need to tell

them about your girlfriend? >> just to get him talking. a he has spent seven years in correctional facility, he has been practicing, do not encourage him. >> i have to trust my estates on this. >> can for field, iowa you were in the dark ages and all of a sudden have the these instincts. >> it is a process. >> there is no doubt that what happened and there was a performed process for you but i need you to understand that whatever you think, there is a distinct possibility that he is mobility you. -- that he is manipulating you. ♪ charlie: ok, let us talk about this scene. how many takes? holt: we did two or three. [laughter] charlie: how many did you do? >> it is so funny because that was a perfectper

example i think of multiple takes, we did it over two days. charlie: that little seen, over two days? [laughter] guest: it is longer than that. there was a lot of comedy, the potential for a lot of comedy built into this. a wide-eyed, innocent agent across the table from this giant who is so dangerous. we're were doing it over and over again, i know -- i was sctickll of this during the takes. and the line where he says, where are you so tense? david says, what if you do nothing? this is the middle of the second day, and to me it changed the whole energy of that moment. it created something more realistic, took away the actory that i wastick

doing. charlie: that is what he is david fincher. guest: that is one of the millions of reasons that he is david fincher, it is certainly one of them. [laughter] charlie: you said he felt like you graduated in a way. holt: that is absolutely correct. holt: i was in david's first movie alien ii and i also have a role in fight club. said, you saidu that he thought like all of the years of struggle you've had, it felt like you graduated in some said,e weird cold: i have -- one of the interesting things about television is that you get way, youcharacter in a have more time and real estate to find yourself in many different circumstances. courts that is a really important thing, we had cast

jonathan, and it was incredibly important to me that i do not have the wet blanket that i , don't have the guy who is just going -- i am not interested in this. or i am done with work i need to .ave -- r.i.m done i needed to have an actor who could be jonathan 20 years later. look at how the monolithic could be the guy in the pure bureaucracyin the it's taken a lot out of him. in order to do that, we needed an actor who has enormous sensitivity. working with holt as many times as i have, i kept wishing i had a part for him that had more. that had string theory attached

to other ideas. to be able to offer some any something -- somebody something where you can say we can be doing this five years from now, are you ready to dig? charlie: did you see this as a television series rather than a film? david: yes. charlie: what did you learn from "zodiac?" >> you can ask a lot of an audience, but two hours and 45 minutes with no closure. get a babysitter, find parking, wait in line, since and have people with their phones in your peripheral vision, and concentrate for two hours and 45 minutes is asking a lot. [laughter] i also think this is conversations. charlie: we love conversations, don't we? david: of course. i am eternally -- it is very difficult when you are an executive producer. you have to find other directors, because you cannot direct the whole thing. 10 hours is too much.

in finding the other directors that we found, there are certain people where you give them an 11 page scene that takes place at a table not unlike this and say there is this movement and the first two pages and night event and then there's a pivot. they say, well can someone crash something? can someone jump through a window? it is terrifying. the guys we found some from documentaries and another one was a writer who had worked on a show i made a film about a hijacking that some of the most riveting scenes in it that were just people talking into a speakerphone. charlie: when i created this program, i said our conceit is we believe that people of conversation.

that they will want to see it if it is real, engaging, passionate. you don't need a fancy set, you don't need anything. you just need two people or more that are engaged by ideas. david: there are acts and movements and the way that people move their agenda and try to understand and look for clarification. that stuff can be as interesting as people running through the streets showing their badges. charlie: did you want him, because he was so great in king george, iii? david: i haven't seen that. [laughter] david: you know, i met jonathan when we were casting the social network. he came in and he was amazing and riveting. it was for sean parker. i thought the one thing jonathan doesn't have access to that i have to have if he has to have a

the -- a little that he just cannot even fake it. charlie: great to see you again. congratulations. ♪ is this a phone?

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rise of mobile. more people are consuming content in transit. podcasts benefit from the power of audio, the most independent -- intimate form of media. "when guests are compelling and the conversation covers a complete drum kits, the hands of a clock disappear and i feel like i have enjoyed a secondhand human experience." alex bloomberg is the cofounder and ceo of gimlet media. polishing minutes vice president of on-demand content. creator and cohost of radio lab and more perfect. i am pleased to have them all. let me begin with this. explain to me the rise of podcasts. how did this thing come into into suchrise popularity so fast? was it filling a need or creating a need?

alex: i do not know. maybe a little more of the first than the second. i am a public radio refugee and i still live in the world of public radio. for me, it feels like we're making a show for 10 years and suddenly the podcast app, you could carry on the phone, and it blew up. it was baked into smartphones and i think that really launched things. now we have companies that are making it feels like the world is expanding. charlie: everybody i know was thinking about it. >> it is a very easy barrier for entry, so it feels very accessible for people in the same way that blogging was 10 years ago. it is a way for people to get right at you, right in your ear, nothing between the two of you. it is what they say. it is very intimate, and it is a very close touch point.

i think that has contributed a bit. charlie: what do the most successful ones have? >> they have intimacy and people you want to hang out with. people you want in your ear or your head. there is no closer you can be to someone. i have been in podcasting since 2005, shortly after it started. we found when you put together a group of people the audience feels connected with, then they feel like they are sitting at a table with them. they were having dinner, going out for drinks, listening to their friends talk about something. they responded in that way as though they joined the club or went to a dinner party. charlie: it makes me think i've been doing a podcast always 25 years. [laughter] it is a podcast. >> i think there are a couple reasons people listen. one is the companionship where they are your friends. also, people like to be told a

story. a lot of the best podcasts are the ones where you can sit down and it feels like a transformation. i think a big thing is people learn things. a lot of the best ones combine all three. they like you guys, they hang out with you, they're learning stuff, and being told a story. >> i make a show called radio lab and a spinoff called more perfect. it is as alex said. alex started on this american life a million years ago and for me that was the model. -- isorry that i did not am sorry. i did not mean to dig at you there. [laughter] the idea is to tell these really gripping, personal stories that we do to some moments of wonder or where you can think about the

world differently and you are changed. every story to have that kind of transformation moments and that is what we try to do. radio lab does it about all kinds of things. more perfect deals with the supreme court. what is the conflict and what is this country where these arguments come in front of a court speaks to who we are right now? charlie: has this been an opportunity for women? >> speaking as the woman, i can say yes. absolutely. and has been incredible. there was research that couple years ago about how few women there were hosting podcast on the top itunes tarts. i think it was 20% in 2013. it has been dominated by men like many things. the number has gone up slightly to about 33%.

at wnyc, it is a big part of our goal, our mission to get women's voices out there. i think podcasting can be an agent for change. in that sense, it feels like a feminist medium. i think it is because it is a platform to people you had jessica williams on your show recently. her podcast is something we developed and that is our show. it is a platform for women, women of color, people who would otherwise not get the millions and millions of people listening to them that they wouldn't without the podcast. we get people writing in all the time. for one thing, they get people saying they want to join wnyc. people also say i have never heard myself represented before. i am hearing my stories in a way i never have before. it is very powerful, and we have a women's podcasting festival coming up in a couple weeks and we get women from all over the world to come in learn from each other and develop skills and be mentored.

charlie: is it becoming remunerative? >> it is. paula: you can make billions. join us. [laughter] >> i will if you are making billions. [laughter] part of our company is to sell ads, and podcasts at the are are the highest cpm, that means cost per thousand listeners. sometimes there are two times or three times higher than super bowl ad rates. the audience is much smaller than the super bowl, but the numbers themselves per listener are higher. it is because the advertising is very intimate. often the hosts are the want to andhe ones talking about want to talk about the products.

charlie: it gives credibility to the product. >> and a lot of podcasts, there is a clear line when it isn't bad, but a lot of times the hosts are delivering the ad. we will also take a story-based approach to the ad. it is the way it humanizing brands. they're very effective. charlie: what changes are underway now that it has growth and traction with the american public? how is it changing and evolving ? offering more voices? >> i think we're at the beginning of the next golden age of audio. if you think about audio in the old days before television, people sat around their radios. if you think about how much talent came out of the radio. you have orson welles, lucille

ball, everybody. tv when a long and radio frozen in place. now with on-demand, you have this flourish that is happening. you talked about fiction. i think fiction will be huge. i think you guys launched some fiction shows. we watched a show called homecoming that has done very well. paula: a lot of people multitask , too, so that is another reason why it is great. >> you don't need your eyes. that is the great advantages of audio. you can do other things and see other things. >> it is one of the things you can do with your phone while it is still in your pocket. charlie: does it take an audience away from other mediums? >> i do not know. i do not have the data to back this up, but i feel like radio lab is a show in a podcast. i think we're mostly a podcast

, and i think they are mostly different products. charlie: so you think they can coexist? >> i think so. we live to lives very literally. what is on the radio and a podcast is very different. paula: we see a lot of sunday night listening and that is a very big tv nights. i still think we are competing with tv. people.ompeting for thing ask of this existing in a pretty separate sphere. there is the listening time when you are working out or on the subway, and there is a time where you can look at a screen. podcasting is its own separate enclaves.

paula: i think when people get gripped by a podcast, it could take over and replace some of the other things they were doing. certainly reading. certainly reading. book publishers, i don't know. beware. i feel you are saying. you will not be watching television while you are commuting, but you do make decisions about how to spend your leisure time. charlie: is there a ranking? >> i think that is being disputed. [laughter] everyone seems to be measuring it differently. for a while, we would check the itunes rank and then that did not make any sense anymore because you cannot quite tell why number one is number one. >> it is not stand volume. >> there is an algorithm. >> i do not know who is the most -- certainly, i put this american life. >> and their spinoff serial and s-town are all three very large. >> radio lab and then npr is

probably, in terms of sheer reach, they probably have the most. show on revisionist history which is also pretty big. there are essentially two kinds of podcast. podcasting time shifted and original podcasting. you do one of each. i think when people are getting used to having things on demand, dvr, and theye a want to get off of the network schedule and watch it on their own time should i think when podcasts get more popular, people will get used to timeshifting and that could spell some trouble for radio.

it might be a generational thing. it is too fun to figure on schedule. >> with the state of national politics what it is, you kind of cannot compete with what is happening in the day's events. i still obsessively turn on the news, because who knows what crazy thing will be on the news that day? charlie: on television or radio? >> on television. that feels faster. >> people who have tv shows like you and everybody knows them, podcasting is this medium in which they could really play in a way that they cannot and ther, morein o traditional media. charlie: play meaning fun? paula: flex different creative muscles, talk to the people

they are interested in, maybe they are actors and want to start having conversations with people and a lot of people who know them to hear them in a different way and the people who do not know them to kind of get to know them. it is part of the appeal of why you are seeing people do this. charlie: this is a clip from the giant pool of money from this american life. audio only, boys and girls. >> round figures. >> you basically borrowed $540,000 from the bank and they income?check your >> no income verification loan. they did not call me up and say how much money. they do not do that. it is almost like you have a guy in the street and say lends me -- lend me $540,000. it seems like it if i casually and though there are a lot of papers that get filled out and flies all over with faxes and emails. essentially, that is the process. ♪ >> would you have loaned you the money?

>> i would not have loaned me the money, and no one i know would have loaned me the money. i know people who are criminals who would not know me that money, and they would break your kneecaps. i am serious. a person with bad credit. alex: i remember everything about exactly where i was when i had that interview. foreclosure where people were trying to figure out what was happening with their houses in the financial crisis. quick backstory, that was a big hour-long episode of this american life.

adam davidson, a reporter for npr, and i, we teamed up to do this big hour-long on mortgage finance. we were trying to explain what was going on with the financial crisis. we had no idea how to do it and nothing like that had ever been tried at this american life. for inspiration, we looked to a show called radio lab, launched by jad and robert. they have this two cohosts set up where it was really effective , because they were talking about science, these really complicated things. one person would be like what are you saying? and the other person would be like, i am saying this, and we ripped it off and made a ton of money. and thank you. >> one of the things interesting about listening to that is that came out literally when it was all happening. the world was melting. charlie: this was 2008. >> no one knew what was going on . it gave me that moment about incredible storytelling where you also learn and it takes your

perspective and shakes your perspective. it was one of those moments where just for a moment it was "oh, that is why we are here." we since of the analyzed that moment in our culture but that was very early on. paula: i was an editor at the wall street journal. i was editing pieces -- my entire life was about the economic meltdown. i heard that. charlie: here is the other thing, it is like movies. the music accentuates the experience. [laughter] paula: that was really good. i didn't even know we were coming back in. andy: i feeling podcasting is where the films were in the 1910's. everyone is learning from each

other and saying this is so great i will try it. and then you might be copying me , and everyone is learning from each other. paula: we have an lgbtq show and we call it this american life only gayer. [laughter] but it is completely original so. charlie: finally, there is this. what will change podcast over the next 10 years? it will obviously have a growth trajectory, but will it be technology, will it be what? human creativity will change it? >> we are in great need of better technology. it is not as easy as sitting in your car and turning on the radio. that would be my ideal. you get in your car and turn on your podcast with one button. it also still hard to find new podcasts that you like. this is called the discovery problem, and we all have thought

about ways -- charlie: why is that? engines?ve search andy: you can go to itunes, apple podcasts, but there are 400,000 podcasts in itunes. there's a chart of most popular which is a good place to start. charlie: you can go to genre i guess. andy: it is not enough. paula: research shows the most popular way is from a friend and that has to change. >> sometimes, they say, "great. how do i listen?" you have to get a podcast player and download the thing. it is not so simple. if you can just be like, i will x it to you that would be the best. charlie: going backwards, maybe taking something like this, a designated device like a kindle?

>> the original devices were named after the ipod. horrible name. podcast. >> one of the things we need to do is change that. charlie: do you have an idea? >> i don't. i do not know. i do think about that. radio, as a term, means something else to one generation, but i think to the young people who consume podcasts, maybe they call it the radio i hope? charlie: do you think if they consume a podcast they will say i am listening to the radio of? >> we can say we are making radio. that is what most people say. charlie: the reason being because they are both from the year? >> yes and podcast is a clunky word. charlie: whatever we call it. it seems to have a great future. >> thank you. charlie: thank you for joining us. see you next time. ♪

♪ emily: i am emily chang. this is "best of bloomberg technology." coming up, we will hear about bitcoin and trump. and technology can best serve society. at a summit in l.a., i sat down with