♪ >> from our studios in new york city, this is "charlie rose." charlie: we begin this evening with the continuing search for answers in las vegas. here is the cbs evening news. >> investigators are no closer to understanding what allowed stephen paddock to create some of the carnage. his preparations were so elaborate, including placing cameras outside his room and -- room, that investigators believed had a -- paddock may have had an accomplice. >> stephen paddock is a man who spent decades acquiring weapons and ammo and living a secret life, much of which will never be fully understood.

>> everybody go. [gunfire] >> this new video obtained by the review journal shows the harrowing moments of the attack. >> to we have a medical center somewhere yet? >> police have now pinpointed a more exact timeline. at 10:05 p.m., paddock fired the first shots from the mandalay bay. then the shooting stopped. at 10:18, paddock fired more than 200 rounds through the door of his room, wounding a security guard in the leg. after that, paddock fired no more bullets into the music festival. he may have had more in mind. >> you suggested that after he saw the security guard, his concern became himself. was there any evidence he plan to survive this and escape? >> yes. i can't tell you. >> at 11:20, police shoot -- used an explosive to get through his front door.

some of paddock's shots also hit the aviation fuel tanks on the edge of the airport. investigators are trying to determine whether those were stray bullets or he intended the tanks. >> this guy is absolutely he boogeyman. the boogeyman. >> this guy used tremendous tactics. this showed training. where did he get that training? who helped him train to use those weapons as he did? ♪ charlie: puerto rico continues to reel in the aftermath of hurricane maria. more than two weeks after the storm half the population does , not have access to drinking water. 95% of the power grid remains down. is 34,icial death toll but the governor expects that number to rise. cbs news correspondent david has no hasvid begg been reporting from the hardest hit areas of the island. here is a look at some of his reporting. david: residents of puerto rico

waded through the mess hurricane maria left behind. flooding is widespread and electricity is nonexistent. 20 minutes from san juan police , and volunteers are working to rescue people trapped by maria's storm surge. they helped this man and his dog get out and get to dry land. >> they are talking to people and asking them what the situation is in their home. >> across the islands, streets that don't look like rivers are covered in power lines. maria's 155-mile-per-hour winds crushed what was already a week power grid -- a week power grid -- weak power grid. before hitting puerto rico, the storm hit dominica. the dominican republic so winds and rain when the storm passed the island today as a category three. maria is moving toward turks and caicos. approved arump has

federal disaster proclamation for puerto rico. >> we are happy, very happy. >> with so many communities cut off, the full extent of the damage is not yet known. david begg know, cbs news, san juan, puerto rico. charlie: i am pleased to have david at this table. welcome. >> great to be here. you have covered a lot of stories, where do you put this one? david: do you know what is interesting about what we just saw? it got worse after that report. that was 24, 36 hours afterward. it has gotten worse. i have never covered a national disaster where the emergency was endless. fifteen days out and it is still an emergency. charlie: is that because of the severity, or because puerto rico was not prepared for this kind of thing? can you ever be prepared? or because the rescue effort has been too little, too slow? interesting is

that every day the governor said we are getting what we need from the federal government, but we need more. i said to him on day 13, what more do you need to move this emergency situation. he said, i need extra helicopters and buses. they didn't have the buses and cars because they couldn't get there, their homes were badly damaged that they had to stay behind with their families. they could not move the supplies. the island was paralyzed by this hurricane. thisovernor predicted that was coming. do you know how long some places could be without power? up to a year. charlie: a year? david: a year. i think i said this with you on the air. there is a man in my apartment who was just able to talk to his mother in the past couple of days. he couldn't reach her. there must be 1000 cases like that. david: i know puerto ricans who got a plane, got in a car, and drove to the house 10-15 days

later because that's the only way they could check on their mother and father. david: how will puerto rico -- charlie: how will puerto rico recovery ac? david puerto rico filed for : bankruptcy this year. the power grid, they will have to replace it. if anything, the governor says this could be what puerto rico needed. they could not get the money to replace it before the storm, so now they will have to have it. but there are still places with no running water. still people are drinking water from a stream and bathing in it. today, we heard they are now sending fuel tankers to isolated areas on the island, that have been deemed areas of special need, and those will be specifically position that each of those municipalities. what took 15 days to get those trucks? governor, we the never got a straight answer. i even asked him why do you keep asking for help? you have told us you were able to get food to every minute's

palette he around the island. why do people still need more? he said what we think is happening is that the food is going to a distribution area in the middle of town, but people do not know it is there and we cannot reach them because there is no phone communication. i asked him what he would do, and he said we will use megaphones and i will encourage , the mayors to go around on a megaphone telling people where to go. if we cannot drive around and do it, we will use a helicopter with an intercom system to do it. charlie: president trump came and it was not what they had expected in a variety of ways. but this is your report on his visit to puerto rico earlier this week. here it is. pres. trump: there is a lot of love in this room. david: president trump and the first lady were greeted by a friendly audience in one of the fastest areas to recover from the hurricane. the president handed out supplies, tossing paper towels into the crowd. mr. trump also toward the neighborhood and met with people whose homes were damaged by

maria. pres. trump: we are going to help you out. have a good time. it is great to see you. >> thank you, mr. president. david: the president and the first lady got a look at the destruction by helicopter. they did not visit the harder-hit areas of the island where there is no running water or power, forcing people to drink and bathe with stream water. during a briefing earlier in the day, president trump praise the federal government's response, but seemed to downplay the devastation of maria compared to that of hurricane katrina. pres. trump: if you look at a real catastrophe like katrina and you look at the tremendous hundreds and hundreds and of hundreds people that died, you can be very proud of all of your people, all of our people working together. david: mr. trump also appeared to criticize the u.s. territory for their more than $70 billion debt. pres. trump: i hate to tell you , puerto rico, but you have thrown our budget a little out of whack because we spent a lot , of money on puerto rico. david: later, the president seemed to suggest the debts may be forgiven.

pres. trump: we need to look at their whole debt structure they , owe a lot of money to our friends on wall street and we will have to wipe that out. david: after the president left, the governor said the death toll had risen from 16-34. somewhere from mudslides, but the other causes range from anxiety, heart attack, suicide, and lack of oxygen. the oxygen ran out when the ran out in the homes of elderly -- when the power ran out in the homes of elderly users. cbs news, san juan, puerto rico. charlie: you have become so identified with the story. a friend of mine said david is so into this story. if he ever comes to new york i would love to meet him. you have become an internet sensation as well. what does this do in terms of the way people look at you down there? two they somehow think you mr. , reporter, must have some

answers for us? david: i think it was the only place they were getting answers. it started with this. i will never forget going to the airport and there were about 900 to 1000 people laid out. no power, no ac, it was dark, no one had food and water. there were kids were stripped naked by their parents sleeping in their own sweat in strollers, as their mothers and fathers fanned them with cardboard. , eight hours later and said do you know what is going on at the airport -- i went to the governor, eight hours later, and said to you know what is going on at the airport? they said they saw my report and sent supplies there. i told them it was still happening. i get a lot of questions as to how our journalists should go and how far in the story you should be. i did not hand out food and water, but i was relentless in pursuing answers to questions the people there deserved. i did not go there with an agenda. i had never been to puerto rico. i do not know many puerto rican people. but those are some of the most patient, resilient people in the

face of a natural disaster. to have youis great here. david: thank you for having me. charlie: back in a moment. stay with us. ♪

charlie: "mindhunter" is a new netflix series from david finch here. the series is set in the late 1970's and depicts the emerging behavioral science unit within the fbi.

jonathan groff and help mcallen play two fbi agents who travel the country, interviewing convicted serial killers. here's a look at the trailer. [video clip] >> it is not easy butchering people. it is hard work. physically and mentally. i don't think people realize. >> you need to vent. you know, there is a lot more like me. >> do you think so? >> 40 years ago, your fbi is founded hunting down john , dillinger. now, we have extreme violence between strangers. >> we travel around the country and teach fbi techniques to cops. >> do you mind if i bother you for a minute? >> she was found cuffed and lashed to the bed. >> what people won't do to each other. >> how can we help? >> we should be using every resource we can. we are talking to the smartest people we find, on the broadest possible spectrum.

>> are criminals born or are they formed? psychopaths are convinced that there is nothing wrong with them, so these men are virtually impossible to study. yet you have found a way in perfect, laboratory conditions. >> hello, ladies. >> that is what this makes it so exciting, so far-reaching. >> it is not our job to commiserate with these people. it is our job to electrocute them. >> they cannot like everything we do. we are talking to serial killers. >> serial killers. >> new terminology. >> it will bite you in the ass. >> you are ruining peoples lives. >> what did you do? >> you are developing a pattern of behavior here. i can't help you. >> there is no procedural rule book for how to talk to these people. >> you have to get in the dirt with the pigs. >> how do we get ahead of crazy if we do not know how crazy thinks? [end video clip] charlie: joining me are the

executive producer and director david fincher, and our two stars. we are pleased to have them here is stable. we're witnessing an extraordinary thing happening, a horrific thing happening. the questions they are asking are the questions your your guys -- your guys, your characters based on real-life people are asking. ,what makes these people do this? >> if anybody has an interest in true crime, it is always that. it is always that thing you cannot quite touch or get at. you don't understand what makes them do what they do. charlie: is it insanity or not? obviously a huge argument against an insanity plea when somebody has plotted so carefully not to get caught. charlie: there's a difference between right and wrong. >> of course. exactly.

always, if someone has gone through the motions and fantasized for long enough, they have worked out all the little problems. so is there an insanity defense there? probably not. charlie: based on what your two characters play, what questions would you be asking if you were in las vegas? what questions would you be asking. you cannot talk to him. he shot himself. >> nobody lives to be in their 60's and suddenly wakes up one day and decides to commit mass murder without any kind of warning signs without any , previous criminal behavior of any kind. i would be trying to figure out what were the things that led him to that point. charlie: which brings me to this subject.

what was that your character, the approach -- i do not want to say empathy -- but what is the approach that make you say what is this guy doing? where is he coming from? >> it is the young agent who believes there is a better way to figure this out. jonathan: i think on the show we are trying to see if we can fake empathy in order to understand the impossible to understand, and i think along the way we , glean information and the show takes place in the late 1970's, when the idea of all this information and doing this was very new and they acquire , systems of labeling and compartmentalizing the different kinds of killers. but and i think ultimately, part of the reason people are so fascinated with serial killers endlessly is because you can ask as many questions as you want to and i do not know if we we will ever get an answer. charlie: nor do you know if they even know. >> right.

charlie: you, sir? >> i'm apologizing in advance. charlie what is it about you? : [laughter] >> nobody sent me the remake of breakfast at tiffany's. you know? charlie: would you do that over? >> i don't know. i can only fall back on my -- i cannot apologize enough. charlie: we can fall back on some things you have done before and say there is something yourself,ou, to ask where does aberration come from? >> certainly when we were doing , the rounds at quantico in -- and trying to indoctrinate ourselves and look at what they had to offer, you round the corner under the library and there is a life-size fiberglass rendering of hannibal lecter. obviously, john doe from seven, those movies came out around the

same time and they were both sort of in the mold of serial wileyr as the coyote super genius. as i was talking to the woman who was giving us a tour, she show would be like "silence of the lambs." and i said no, but i want to take that back and not talk about the gourmet opera expert who -- you know, to me these are very sad. people who have grown up under her in this circumstances. -- horrendous circumstances. this is not to overstate how much empathy or sympathy we should have for them. it is just simply a fact. we have seen so much in this literary conceit of there is a fine line that separates the

hunters from the hunted. i really thought it was time to sort of take that back and make it -- really the reason we are , fascinated with them is because we are nothing like them. they are unfathomable. -- iterally cannot see charlie: having looked at a number of them, do they share any commonalities? david: of course. there is a lot of commonality. the show is a series of conversations. charlie: somebody bought a book and is based on a book written by former fbi -- david: exactly. the king of the profilers from the fbi. wo, tell meu t about the dynamic of the two characters. that is part of the dynamic. david: there are the guys were the characters are based on. one is not with us any longer and the other was a creative consultant with our show. once we got into trying to

divide the mythology -- who went what, was the first person to -- who went where, who was the first person to say x, it got extremely complicated. joe penn hall, the creator and the head writer of the show, he decided i need to be able to divide this legwork as i needed in order to be able to dramatize it. because we will never be able to . he was the one who said i will call this guy this and this other guy this. then i am going to make a crazy quilt of whatever sort of behavioral impetus i need. charlie: when he comes talking about these ideas, your character is what? you look at him with skepticism or kind of convincing? convince me? this is not my experience, you've got to convince me. holt: when we meet the character i play, bill, he is in a failing marriage and has an adopted son , who he has ad difficult relationship with and , that has created a lot of

problems in his marriage. he is not someone interested in the bureaucracy at quantico or the politics and the brown nosing, if you will that he , would need to do in order to get a promotion. he teaches road school. he travels around the country and he teaches the latest fbi investigative techniques to local cops. and in a sense, he is running away. i think of him as kind of floundering. here is almost kind of forgotten that she has almost sort of forgotten why it was important -- he has almost sort of forgotten why it was important that he be an fbi agent. what happens when holden, jonathan's character comes into my life, is his youth and enthusiasm and intelligence kind of revitalize me in a sense, and make me remember what it was that i loved. charlie: and what is it that you have, other than youth and enthusiasm? [laughter] charlie: is it a new idea? what has made you different?

jonathan: i think that one of the things that is interesting about the show is when you meet holden in the first episode, he is a little lost. the very first scene in the show , he is in a hostage negotiation situation and a guy shoots himself in the face. he goes to the fbi and he says i did everything by the book and somebody died and i am really confused and perhaps we are going about this in the wrong way. i think it is symbolic. hoover was running the fbi up into the early 1970's and there was a sort of black and white vision of what crime was. it is like go get the bad guys and then we succeeded. 1970's was coming into the fbi a little bit and , holden meets this girl who is getting her phd and studying

sociology and he gets his mind blown. he has a nexus until crisis, and is looking for purpose and meaning, and a better way that -- he has existential an existential crisis, and is looking for purpose and meaning, and on how to work in the fbi. he gets stuck with this guy teaching behavioral science out of school all over the country. through a strange set of circumstances he finds himself , sitting across the room from ed kemper, who we now know is a serial killer. charlie: here is the scene. [video clip] >> it is more of a research thing. >> research? >> just a series of interviews. chatting with individuals, like yourself. >> we're just talking. i don't get to go someplace, do a bunch of tests? holden: no tests. just right here. >> why? holden: i believe it could be useful. ed: talking about what? holden: i don't know.

your behavior, i guess. if you want to, that is. i mean, we do not have to talk about anything at all if you do not want to. ed: why are you so tense? hmmm? -- holden: hmmm? ed you are tense. : right now. holden: no, i am not tense. [laughter] charlie: hold that thought. take a look at this. this is holt's character talking to jonathan about the same inquiry. here it is. [video clip] >> he's telling you what he guessed you want to hear. >> why would you want to hear that? >> because you are you. you told him about your university education, your sassy girlfriend, you are sensitive character, and he tailored it to fit. why did you tell him that stuff? why do you feel the need to tell

him about your girlfriend? >> to get him talking. he has -- >> he has had seven years and eight correctional facility -- in a correctional facility. don't encourage him. do not give him anything. he is your subject. the objective. >> i have to trust my instinct on this. >> there is that word again. in fairfield, iowa you were in the dark ages, and suddenly you have all of these impeachable instincts. >> it has been a process. >> i need you to understand that whatever you think, there is a distinct possibility that he is manipulating you. ♪ [end video clip] charlie: ok, so let us talk about this scene. director, you undertake more than one take? holt: we did two or three. charlie: how many did you do? jonathan: it is so funny, because that scene was a perfect andple of ed kemper

multiple takes, because we did that over two days. charlie: that little seen over two days? over two days? >> there is a lot of comedy built into that or a potential for a lot of comedy built into this wide-eyed, innocent agent across the table from this giant person who is so dangerous. i was doing all of this schti tick we're were doing it over , and over again and that line where where he says "why are you so tense" and i say "i am not tense." david says, what if you do nothing? this is like the middle of the second day. to me it changed the whole energy of that moment. it created something more realistic. it took away the actory, comedic thing i was trying to do. that is one of the millions of reasons why he is david but that

-- david fisher, but yes, that is one of them. charlie: and you had a couple of small roles? holt: i was in david's first movie, "alien ii" and i also have a role in "alien iii" and i also had a role in "fight club." charlie: you said he felt like you graduated in a way. holt: that is absolutely correct. you know, -- i have said this before in interviews. for me to have a privilege of character -- bill is an interesting character, and one of the wonderful things about television is you get to explore a character in much greater detail than you would in a two-hour movie or three-our -- three-hour david: that is a really

important thing because we had cast jonathan and it was incredibly important to me that i don't have the wet blanket, that i don't have the guy who is just going -- i am not interested in this. or i'm done. you know, i needed to have an actor who could be jonathan 20 years later, who could be the monument -- monolithic bureaucracy, it has taken it out of him. he's hitting his head against a wall. so in order to do that, we needed an actor who has enormous sensitivity. working with holt as many times as i have, i kept wishing i had a part for him that had more. that had string theory attached to other ideas. to be able to offer some any -- somebody something where you can say we can be doing this five years from now, are you

ready to dig? charlie: did you see this as a television series rather than a film? david: yes. you can ask a lot of an audience, but two hours and 45 minutes with no closure. get a babysitter, find parking, wait in line, since and have people with their phones in your peripheral vision, and concentrate for two hours and 45 minutes is asking a lot. i also think this is conversations. charlie: we love conversations, don't we? david: of course. i am eternally -- it is very difficult when you are an executive producer. you have to find other directors because you cannot direct the whole thing. 10 hours is too much. there's too many -- so, in finding the other

directors that we found, there are certain people where you give them an 11 page scene that takes place at a table not unlike this and say there is this movement and the first two pages and night event and then it moves over, they say, well can someone crash something? can someone jump through a window? it is terrifying. the guys we found some from documentaries and another one was a writer who had worked on a show i made a film about a hijacking that some of the most riveting scenes in it that were just people talking into a speakerphone. charlie: when i created this program, i said our conceit is we believed that people love conversation and that they will want to see it if it is real, engaging, passionate.

and you don't need a fancy set, you don't need anything. you just need two people or more that are engaged by ideas. david: there are acts and movements and the way that people move their agenda and try to understand and look for clarification. that stuff can be as interesting as people running through the streets showing their badges. charlie: did you want him because he was so great in king george, iii? is that why you wanted him? david: i haven't seen that. i met jonathan when we were casting the social network. he came in and he was amazing and riveting. and i thought, the one thing jonathan doesn't have access to that i have to have if he has to -- is he has to have a little the now at the. and you cannot even fake it.

charlie: great to see you again. congratulations. ♪ ♪

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james walcott of "vanity fair" magazine writes, "when guests are compelling and the conversation covers a complete drunk it, the hands of a clock -- drum kit the hands of a clock , disappear and i feel like i have enjoyed a secondhand human experience." our guests today -- alex bloomberg is the cofounder and ceo of gimlet media. andy bowers is the founding chief, -- paul shuman is vice president of on-demand content and wnyc. and get off in red creator and , cohost of radio lab and more perfect. i am pleased to have them all. let me begin with this. explain to me the rise of podcasts. how did this thing come into being and rise into such popularity so fast? was it filling a need or creating a need? >> i don't know. i hope so. maybe more the first than the second. i am a public radio refugee and

i still live in the world of public radio. for me, it feels like we're making a show for 10 years and suddenly the podcast app, you could carry on the phone, and it blew up. it was baked into smartphones and i think that really launched things. now we have companies that are making it feels like the world is expanding. charlie: everybody i know was thinking about it. >> it is a very easy barrier for entry, so it feels very accessible for people in the same way that blogging was 10 years ago. it is a way for people to get right at you, right in your ear, nothing between the two of you. it is what they say. it is very intimate, and it is a very close touch point. it gives people a platform they can't necessarily have with a book or tv show. i think that has contributed a

bit. charlie: what do the most successful ones have? >> they have intimacy and people you want to hang out with. people you want in your ear or your head. there is no closer you can be to someone. i have been in podcasting since 2005, shortly after it started. we found when you put together a group of people the audience feels connected with, then they feel like they are sitting at a table with them. they were having dinner, going out for drinks, listening to their friends talk about something. they responded in that way as though they joined the club or went to a dinner party. charlie: it makes me think i've been doing a podcast always 25 -- all these 25 years. [laughter] charlie: it is not a television program, it's a podcast. >> i think there are a couple reasons people listen. one is the companionship where they are your friends. also, people like to be told a story. a lot of the best podcasts are

the ones where you can sit down and it feels like a transformation. i think a big thing is people learn things. a lot of the best ones combine all three. they like you guys, they hang out with you, they're learning stuff, and being told a story. when you can do all three, you're doing something really special. >> i make a show called radio lab and a spinoff called more perfect. it is as alex said. alex started on this american life a million years ago and for me that was the model. i am sorry that i did not -- i am sorry. i did not mean to dig at you there. [laughter] >> in podcast years. the idea is to tell these really gripping, personal stories that we do to some moments of wonder or where you can think about the world differently and you are changed.

you want every story to have that kind of transformation moments and that is what we try to do. radio lab does it about all kinds of things. "more perfect" deals with the supreme court. what is the conflict and what is this country where these arguments come in front of a court speaks to who we are right now? charlie: has this been an opportunity for women? >> speaking as the woman, i can say yes. absolutely. [laughter] >> yeah, it's been incredible. there was research that couple -- done a couple years ago about how few women there were hosting podcast on the top itunes tarts. -- charts. i think it was 20% in 2013. it has been dominated by men like many things. the number has gone up slightly to about 33%. at wnyc, it is a big part of our goal, our mission to get women's voices out there.

i think podcasting can be an agent for change. in that sense, it feels like a feminist medium. i think it is because it is a platform to people you had jessica williams on your show recently. her podcast is something we developed and that is our show. it is a platform for women, women of color, people who would otherwise not get the millions and millions of people listening to them that they wouldn't without the podcast. we get people writing in all the time. for one thing, they get people saying they want to join wnyc. people also say i have never heard myself represented before. i am hearing my stories in a way i never have before. it is very powerful, and we have a women's podcasting festival coming up in a couple weeks and we get women from all over the world to come in learn from each other and develop skills and be mentored.

charlie: is it becoming remunerative? >> it is. yes. paula: you can make billions. join us. [laughter] >> i will if you are making billions. [laughter] >> part of our company is to sell ads, and podcast ads are the highest cpm, that means cost per thousand listeners. sometimes there are two times or three times higher than super bowl ad rates. the audience is much smaller than the super bowl, but the numbers themselves per listener are higher. charlie: the payment per listener are higher than the super bowl? >> yes, they are. >> it is because the advertising is very intimate. often the hosts are the ones talking about the products. charlie: it gives credibility to the product. >> and a lot of podcasts, there

is a clear line when it isn't when it is an act but a lot of , times the hosts are delivering the ad. we will also take a story-based approach to the ad. it is the way it humanizing brands. they're very effective. charlie: what changes are underway now that it has growth and traction with the american public? how is it changing and evolving? offering more voices? >> i think we're at the beginning of the next golden age of audio. if you think about audio in the old days before television, people sat around their radios. if you think about how much talent came out of the radio. you have orson welles, lucille ball, everybody. tv came around and radio kind of froze in place.

now with on-demand, you have this flourish that is happening. you talked about fiction. i think fiction will be huge. i think you guys launched some fiction shows. we launched a show called homecoming that has done very well. paula: a lot of people multitask, too, so that is another reason why it is great. charlie: working out, walking -- >> doing the dishes, gardening -- >> you don't need your eyes. that is the great advantages of audio. you can do other things and see other things. >> it is one of the things you can do with your phone while it is still in your pocket. charlie: does it take an audience away from other mediums? >> i do not know. i do not have the data to back this up, but i feel like radio lab is a show in a podcast. i think we're mostly a podcast, and i think they are mostly different products.

charlie: so you think they can coexist? >> i think so. we live to lives very literally. -- we live to lives very literally. what is on the radio and a podcast is very different. paula: we see a lot of sunday night listening and that is a very big tv nights. i still think we are competing with tv. we are competing for people. for people's free time. period. >> i think of this thing as existing in a pretty separate sphere. there is the listening time when you are working out or on the subway, and there is a time where you can look at a screen. which are mostly -- i don't know. i think podcasting is its own separate enclave. paula: i think when people get gripped by a podcast, it could take over and replace some of

the other things they were doing. certainly reading. certainly reading. book publishers, i don't know. beware. i feel you are saying. you will not be watching television while you are commuting, but you do make decisions about how to spend your leisure time. charlie: is there a ranking? to find the top 5 podcasts. >> i think that is being disputed. [laughter] >> everyone seems to be measuring it differently. for a while, we would check the itunes rank and then that did not make any sense anymore because you cannot quite tell why number one is number one. >> it is not stand volume. >> there is an algorithm. >> i do not know who is the most -- certainly, i put this american life. >> and their spinoff serial and s-town are all three very large. >> radio lab and then npr is

probably, in terms of sheer reach, they probably have the most. >> we have a show on revisionist history which is also pretty big. there are essentially two kinds podcasts. podcasting, time-shifted and original podcasting. you do one of each. i think when people are getting used to having things on demand, like they have a dvr, and they want to get off of the network schedule and watch it on their own time should i think when podcasts get more popular, people will get used to timeshifting and that could spell some trouble for radio. i'm sorry to say. it might be a generational thing. it is too fun to figure on -- to set your own schedule. >> with the state of national

politics what it is, you kind of cannot compete with what is happening in the day's events. i still obsessively turn on the news, because who knows what crazy thing will be on the news that day? charlie: on television or radio? >> the currency of radio feels much more transactional, faster. >> people who have tv shows like you and everybody knows them, podcasting is this medium in which they could really play in a way that they cannot in other, more traditional media. charlie: play meaning fun? paula: flex different creative muscles, talk to the people they are interested in, maybe they are actors and want to start having conversations with people and a lot of people who know them to hear them in a different way and the people who do not know them to kind of get to know

them. it is part of the appeal of why you are seeing people do this. charlie: this is a clip from the giant pool of money from this american life. audio only, boys and girls. [podcast audio] >> round figures. >> you basically borrowed $540,000 from the bank and they did not check your income? >> no income verification loan. they did not call me up and say how much money. they do not do that. it's almost like you pass a guy on the street and say let me 400 -- $5,000. he says, well what do you do. you say, it's ok i've got a gob. it seems like it if i casually and though there are a lot of papers that get filled out and stuff flies all over with faxes and emails. essentially, that is the process. ♪

>> would you have loaned you the money? >> i would not have loaned me the money, and no one i know would have loaned me the money. i mean, i know people who are criminals who would not know me -- would not lend me that money, and they would break my kneecaps. i am serious. i need $540,000 -- a person with bad credit. ♪ alex: i remember everything about exactly where i was when i had that interview. we were at a foreclosure where people were trying to figure out what was happening with their houses in the financial crisis. quick backstory, that was a big hour-long episode of this american life. adam davidson, a reporter for npr, and i, we teamed up to do this big hour-long on mortgage finance. we were trying to explain what was going on with the financial

crisis. we had no idea how to do it and nothing like that had ever been tried at "this american life." so for inspiration, we looked at the show called "radio lab," launched by jad and robert. they have this two cohosts set up where it was really effective, because they were talking about science, these really complicated things. one person would be like what are you saying? and the other person would be like, i am saying this, and we ripped it off and made a ton of "a giant pool of money." >> this came out when the world was melting. -- when it was all happening. the world was melting. no one knew what was going on. charlie: this was 2008. >> it gave me that moment about incredible storytelling where you also learn and it takes your

perspective and shakes your perspective. it was one of those moments where just for a moment it was like, "oh, that is why we are here." we since of the analyzed that moment in our culture but that was very early on. paula: i was an editor at the wall street journal. i was editing pieces -- my entire life was about the economic meltdown. i heard that. i heard that and i would say that humanized it. charlie: here is the other thing, it is like movies. the music accentuates the experience. [laughter] paula: that was really good. i didn't even know we were coming back in. andy: i feeling podcasting is -- i feel like podcasting is where the films were in the 1910's. everyone is learning from each

other and saying this is so andy: i feeling podcasting is great i will try it. and then you might be copying me, and everyone is learning from each other. paula: we have an lgbtq show and we call it this american life only gayer. [laughter] >> but it is completely original, so. charlie: finally, there is this. what will change podcast over the next 10 years? it will obviously have a growth trajectory, but will it be technology, will it be what? human creativity will change it? what? >> we are in great need of better technology. it is not as easy as sitting in your car and turning on the radio. that would be my ideal. you get in your car and turn on your podcast with one button. it also still hard to find new podcasts that you like. this is called the discovery problem, and we all have thought

about ways -- charlie: why is that? do you have search engines? andy: you can go to itunes, apple podcasts, but there are 400,000 podcasts in itunes. there's a chart of most popular which is a good place to start. charlie: you can go to genre i guess. andy: it is not enough. paula: research shows the most popular way is from a friend and that has to change. >> sometimes, they say, "great. how do i listen?" you have to get a podcast player and download the thing. it is not so simple. if you can just be like, i will "x" it to you, that would be the best. charlie: going backwards, maybe taking something like this, a designated device like a kindle? >> well the original devices were named after the ipod.

horrible name. podcast. >> one of the things we need to do is change that. charlie: do you have an idea? >> i don't. i do not know. i do think about that. radio, as a term, means something else to one generation, but i think to the young people who consume podcasts, maybe they call it the radio i hope? charlie: do you think if they consume a podcast they will say i am listening to the radio of? >> we can say we are making radio. that is what most people say. charlie: the reason being because they are both from the year? >> yes and podcast is a clunky word. charlie: whatever we call it. it seems to have a great future. >> thank you. charlie: thank you for joining us. see you next time. ♪ is this a phone?

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jonathan: from new york for our viewers worldwide, i'm jonathan ferro. with 30 minutes dedicated to fixed income, this is "bloomberg real yield." ♪ jonathan: coming up, a weather-impaired jobs report shows payrolls fall and wage growth surge. the short list for the next fed chair reaches the president's desk. warsh, yellen, cohn, and powell are all in the running. and the divide between madrid and barcelona continues to grow, sending spanish funds lower and much lower. we begin with a big issue, wage growth surging. robert stan on the fed's next move. >> this is confirmation we are getting real wage growth.