♪ >> from our studios in new york city, this is "charlie rose." charlie: we begin with indictments in washington. president trump's former campaign chairman paul manafort and rick gates indicted on a series of charges including money laundering and conspiracy against the united states. it was revealed george papadopoulos pled guilty to making false statements, and lying about his communication with a russian professor. mr. manafort and mr. gates surrendered to the fbi monday and subsequently pled not guilty

to all charges. president trump said through a spokesperson these actions had zero to do with the white house. everyone agrees this represents an escalation into the investigation. joining me is a lawyer in private practice. before that he serves as assistant attorney general for and staffsecurity, to robert mueller during his time at the fbi. i am pleased to have him on the program. do a primer for us in terms of what led to today, and what happened today. >> looks like today there were two significant developments in the criminal investigation. one was the unsealing of an indictment alleging charges that range to a money laundering count that has a potential penalty of up to 20 years

against the former campaign manager for the trump campaign, paul manafort, and one of his business associates. that indictment covers activity where, in the past, manafort worked for the head of the ukrainian government, which was a russian sponsored candidate. one. candidate -- when that candidate lost, he went back to putin's russia. according to the documents, millions of dollars were funneled from that campaign to paul manafort. that conduct continued until 2016. also very significantly today that was made public, although it occurred perhaps as far back and wasrest in july

filed in early october was called a statement of sentence. official, george papadopoulos, pled guilty to making false statements to the fbi. was is he lied about communications he had with a professor in england who was linked, he believed, to the russian government. dating all the way back to april 26, that individual had told george papadopoulos they had thousands of emails that could damage the clinton campaign. according to this statement, that was months before it became public. charlie: the grand jury has been in session. they deliver these indictments. the special prosecutor in his colleagues have been presenting witnesses before the grand jury

on these matters over the last month. >> that is right. a grand jury is citizens like you and me. sometimes you get that notice in the mail. it is for a jury -- there is anohter type called a grandy jury. -- grand jury. they listen to evidence presented by prosecutors. they vote as to where there is ultimately sufficient evidence to bring a federal charge. that process has been going on for a period of time. they decided there was sufficient evidence and decided to return this indictment that was unsealed today. charlie: the person under scrutiny is represented or not represented by an attorney? >> usually there are witnesses that go in front of the grand

jury. the witnesses are not represented by their attorney when they go in. the target of a grand jury investigation often gets what is called a target letter, and has the opportunity to obtain counsel. the grand jury process is not adversarial. it is not the trial that he see on tv, it is an opportunity to that you see on tv, he is an opportunity to present the evidence. charlie: based on what you have today, is there any link to the president of the united states? >>today, is there i will only tt what is in the four corners of the charges. charlie: that is my question. >> there are two different

documents. what is the indictment of paul manafort and richard gates. -- one is the indictment of paul manafort and richard gates. there is not an indictment that ties to the president. the connection would be that paul manafort was the campaign manager for the trump campaign, and that he had been receiving money secretly, according to the allegations, from a ukrainian campaign that is tightly linked to putin. in fact, it is the reason why russian troops went into ukraine to try to seize territory, to support this same candidate who was paying paul manafort. it is not charging in for any activities -- charing him for

any activities for when he was campaign manager. the other unsealed document that shows george papadopoulos is cooperating, this links to his activities as a national security adviser to the trump campaign. outs document says he lied ab having connections to this linked to who was i russia, that he minimized it, and he lied about when it occurred. he said it was before he worked for the trump campaign, but that turned out to not be true. into details meetings, including a meeting that he had with now president trump, and it also details significantly the april 26 meeting, where this professor

et with high-level russian government officials, and had learned from those officials at the russians had obtained dirt on then-candidate clinton, and that he told papadopoulos that the russians have dirt on her, they have thousands of emails on clinton. this is april 26. after that, papadopoulos continues to communicate with trump campaign officials, and continue to try to set up a meeting between the trump campaign and the russians. document is more -- that document is more tightly tied.

john: the other document, the one we have been talking about with george papadopoulos, it is a statement of the offense, which means this is his version of what happened. presented asally fact of the court. presented as fact of the court. we can treat the paragraphs in here as true. charlie: we are talking about a lot of money here, millions of dollars that went to mr. manafort and through various the key allegation is that he received lots of money and he laundered it. what does that mean? john: what they are saying here essentially -- money laundering, there is usually a predicate or some crime that you are trying to hide the proceeds of. the crime here is a violation of

act,oreign registration which is an act designed to be transparent, so people know if you are working for a foreign government. you are supposed to reveal that, and there is a process for it. this is alleging that in order to hide the fact that he was receiving millions of dollars from the ukrainian government, a scheme to make it look like the money was coming from somewhere else. charlie: what surprises you most about this? john: it is this combination. it is an extraordinary moment that two things have happened. one, the campaign manager of the now-president of the united states has been alleged to be hiding, taking millions of dollars from a foreign

government that is closely associated, sponsored, and ,ndeed where the person fled to putin's russia. on the same day to learn that cooperating with the individual,s as an george papadopoulos served as a national security adviser to the trump campaign, and while working for the campaign, a sche it look like the money was coming was learning from the russian government officials far before the general public knew it, that they had thousands of emails that could damage the clinton campaign. these are two significant events. charlie: it would not have taken a genius for mr. manafort to realize he would have moved as a target -- have loomed as a target of this investigation. john: that is correct. there was a lot of public reporting saying he was a target. we don't know about the

correspondence that took place between the investigative team and his counsel. it would not be unusual. the normal course would be summed -- some point prior to the indictment, he would have been notified he was the prime target. charlie: what with that conversation be? john: that can really range. sometimes you have those conversations to see whether or not someone is interested in cooperating. what you have to balance did against -- balance it against usually as a prosecutor, if i reach out to this individual prior to indicting them, will they take steps to destroy evidence, or flee? in which case sometimes you would return an indictment under seal so that they would not know you are investigating, and there is the potential for an arrest. you balance those two things.

there has been a lot of speculation, but we don't know what happened in the case of mr. manafort and mr. gates. charlie: go ahead. john: it is clear with george papadopoulos that he was given an opportunity to cooperate after he was arrested. you can tell from the statement of the fence, it says that he met with the government on numerous occasions to answer questions after he was arrested on july 27, 2017. you know it from that, and also from the fact that you have this agreed-upon statement of the offense. charlie: has he pled guilty, papadopoulos? john: yeah, i think you can look at the statement of offense. it said that it was the factual

basis for a guilty plea, so yes. charlie: so already you have one person that has pled guilty here. john: i don't have a copy of the guilty plea, but that is why he would do a statement of the fence. it was dated october 5, 2017. toadmitted all the facts plead guilty to making false statements. charlie: there has been much talk about bob mueller's team, his integrity. you know the team he has assembled. you worked with him as chief of staff. how would you characterize them? john: starting at the top, the first word that comes to mind with former director bob mueller is integrity. this is someone who, when he volunteered to sign up in the marines in vietnam, to being a prosecutor in three different u.s. attorneys offices, in high-ranking roles in multiple

administrations, including head of the criminal division, and leicester director of the fbi, has earned the respect of everyone that has worked with him on the sides of the aisle, and has been the ultimate nonpartisan hard charging investigator. charlie: who would you say -- what would you say about those who he has chosen to be the principal attorneys? john: he has picked a team in the same mold. nothing will happen at the end of the day with this team without bob mueller asking hard questions and deciding it is the right thing to do. at the end of the day, the decisions will be his. charlie: what happens now? john: a couple things. it looks like the investigation is proceeding. it is a complex special counsel investigation. it is going to continue.

they will continue to gather getence and see if they can to the bottom of any attempts by a foreign government to meddle in our election. in terms of the allegations in the indictment, that will proceed through the normal criminal justice system, with the defense having the chance to present its evidence, and going to a jury of mr. manafort and mr. gate's peers. unless they otherwise resolved the case. charlie: you mean potentially make a deal. john: that is right. mr. coppola's -- mr. papadopoulos has pled guilty, and has been providing information and answering questions. charlie: so they may have asked questions possibly of mr. manafort and mr. gates that literally came from the information they received from

mr. papadopoulos. john: that we just don't know. presumably what they learned from mr. papadopoulos, they will use it to follow-up wherever it may lead in the investigation. charlie: thank you so much for joining us. john: thank you. charlie: back in a moment. stay with us. ♪

charlie: the continue with more on the meal or investigation. joining me is a reporter from the washington post, covering the fbi for cbs. with me is a political correspondent for business insider. tell me your response to this in terms of what surprises you, if anything, about these grand jury indictments. >> i am surprised by two things. one, just the breadth of the allegations. we have tons of alleged personal financial wrongdoing of paul manafort, rick gates, covering their gamut of ukrainian interests. and you have this guy george papadopoulos who pled guilty in secret. he is speaking directly to the heart of the campaign. i am surprised that robert mueller came out of the gate so aggressively with charges

that are both broad and to the point. charlie: you said as he sat down what is key is papadopoulos. >> i think the manafort-gates indictments are minor compared to this. papadopoulos goes potentially to the heart of the campaign. if you read through the facts as they are laid out, he is pleading guilty to lying now, but when you read what they are saying happened, it is not just what he did, it is not just his contact with the russians, it is what the other people in the campaign said. for example, at one point there is a senior campaign aide who suggests that he go to russia in connection with him sending this information, talking about setting up meetings for trump with the russians. charlie: just to interrupt you, this is a staff member for the trump campaign suggesting he go to russia and meet with an

official of the russian government? >> you should go to russia if it is feasible, was the exact quote, to talk about some of the things he's mentioning to them about setting up meetings with the russians. the campaign aide is not named. there are four different campaign aides who are in this. if you are the trump campaign, you can dismiss manafort, didn't happen under our watch. you can say, we did not know he was up to this stuff. you can make the argument. but this -- this is a different game. if it is true -- remember, he was arrested in july. what has he been doing for the last few? has he had a wire? that's the kind of person who is incredibly dangerous to the trump campaign. do you see the same

thing in terms of the significance of mr. papadopoulos? >> he was the surprise today. we expected mr. do you see the e thing in terms of the manafort to appear in court. rick gates was a surprise early on. papadopoulos was someone we at cbs was trying to get context with months back. he seemed to be a minor player in this. he was puzzled about how he ended up on the campaign anyway, a young guy in his 30's who seemed to have little foreign-policy advisor type of experience. people were trying to figure out, where did he come from? to see his name released by the special counsel's office -- that was surprising. the fact that they were able to keep this a secret that he pled guilty, again another surprise. then you see the detail in the court papers that he was also promised dirt on hillary clinton, but far ahead of the promise that was made to donald trump jr. a couple months later, and manafort to appear in court.

before the dnc acknowledged it had been hacked by russian hackers. supplies -- real surprise today. charlie: who was the person that promised information on hillary clinton? >> some of these email extenders exchangesos -- email papadopoulos was having with these russian operatives. this is from someone that used to work in the fbi, essentially they were danglingthese russian. this information in front of him. according to the court papers, he took the bait. he was courting this relationship according to the papers. she was trying to set up a meeting with these people. according to the documents, he tried to curry favor with trump campaign officials -- what you think about this email exchange with people who have some meetings in the offering

that would connect us to people connected to the kremlin, essentially. that is what was surprising about this document tonight, and george papadopoulos' involvement. charlie: the trump campaign today said these have zero to do with the white house. >> what is interesting is in terms of the manafort housements, the white steps on its own feet. they came out originally and said, these guys were always bad, when they were on the campaign and when they left. that is an indication that when they hired manafort, they knew he was engaged in these shady financial dealings. i agree with the rest of this panel, ultimately that the papadopoulos revelations will be incredibly damaging to the trump campaign and to the white house.

it will be difficult for them to distance themselves from that. it casts a new white on what we know about -- a new lightit wilo distance on what we know about russian interference. papadopoulos was offered dirt wasate 2016, before it reported by the washington post had beenhat the dnc hacked. the trump campaign knew very early on that the russians were trying actively to undermine hillary clinton's candidacy. charlie: the ideal of money laundering carries a harsh sentence. >> if you put all these 12 counts together, he faces a possibility of decades in prison. in court today, prosecutors estimated the total sentence being between 12.5 and 15 years for manafort. the real question becomes, can they turn him?

in these investigations cannot you do that before you indict someone. you cooperate with us, we won't invite you. you can also do it where, you don't cooperate, we will invite you. the question becomes, does paul manafort not care because he thinks he will get pardoned anyway? is he not as worried as someone in his position might ordinarily be because his position is -- okay, this will go forward even if i get convicted. scooter libb e-it has happened before. thinks.s what he that is something else to think about that is different than a typical federal prosecution. it throws thinks. in this traditional wrinkle. charlie: this is just the first step by robert mueller. what should we expect next? >> one, now we have a court process that will play out. there is a hearing later this

week. hearings and motions, we will learn more about this case against manafort and gates. the main takeaway is this is a first step. the people on this panel raise a good point, is manafort going to cooperate? it looks like papadopoulos was cooperating. what has he told investigators? what leads are they following? we have heard nothing about mike flynn. what is next for him? is he being pressed to cooperate? these are very aggressive moves by bob mueller. it puts everyone in this orbit on notice, you better come on board with me. charlie: they had pretty clear evidence that bob mueller's investigation would be atressive when he showed up

his residence in the middle of the night. >> from the beginning, bob mueller has moved with great speed and great aggression in white-collar cases. it is rare that they show up with a no knock warrant and seized documents. they are not wrestling around. -- not messing around. they know this sends a message to flynn and others watching that they will send heavy charges that is maybe not even related to the campaign -- they will turn up other stones and leverage those charges to get to the heart of what they are looking at, which is possible coordination between the campaign in russia to influence the election. what about rick gates?campaign >> he has been right by paul manafort's side to these business dealings in ukraine, and he has worked on the

campaign as well. he is a lesser-known name, but it's still significant in the eyes of investigators. what is important to remember is what is not in the indictment, what is not there. we know there have been reports this russian oligarchs, matt ante was promising intermediary with another interesting character i will not get into right now. thismediary was promising russian oligarch with ties to putin. that he would give them an update on the trump campaign. keep in mind what is not in the indictment. that is also important to charlie: there are hints that is to,. >> we have heard that from law enforcement and intelligence sources. keep in mind all of the other players here that have been

under scrutiny. michael flynn, golf junior, jared kushner, carter page. there are several other people who have been under scrutiny. this was hardball from the special counsel's office and we expect there will be more download -- down the road. charlie: more about the meeting that took place between the russian lawyer and paul manafort and trump jr. you now have that she came having been brief by high-level russian officials. in your -- >> another meeting closely mirrored this one. undermining a man named bill

browder who spearheaded the magnitsky act. putin really really hates them. there was this effort that was coordinated at the highest levels. the russian lawyer essentially brought with her a memo that looks exactly the same in some places as this memo written by the prosecutor's office. >> they both pleaded not guilty. from mueller's office as to where they are going that? -- next? >> know and that is what is so interesting. usually they don't talk much. they don't release press releases. today there was this flurry of activity. they opened the floodgates of information. typically, the way the special , itsel's office operates

does not leak. as far as where this is going next we don't know. >> michael flynn is a subject of great weston. >> that is one of the most interesting things about today. he is not mentioned. reporter: the interesting thing to do is read through the tea leaves and say to myself are they referring to flynn? could this be fun -- flynn? i don't know the answer to that question. that flynn doubt continues to be a focus. is he going to get indicted, did they cut a deal. is he not anywhere as guilty as some suggest, who knows. flynn is 100% the focus. if you do the capitol police plea as the paving of the way

and you look at that as the beginning of a roadmap to see where prosecutors are going, very very instructive. you can do what you were just hearing about, the timeline together of when the meeting was and what they are saying. it is kind of fascinating. charley: if you were president would you be worried? >> think i would be more worried tonight them the night before. now we know it is somebody in your campaign. in your campaign has been cooperating with prosecutors for months. they would have to have information that would be damaging to the president, they would have to have information to tell the special counsel. i would be more worried today

than yesterday. >> they are putting up a very brave front. >> it is worth remembering that said itlawyer in march flynn has a story to tell and he was looking for the congressional intelligence committee to give him immunity. he was looking for james comey to give him immunity so he could freely tell this story he had about working on the trump campaign presumably. the white house is putting out about feeling confident is up front. >> legally collusion is not a crime. which is why the potential of digging up dirt on hillary clinton becomes potentially more dangerous. it was not just conversations, it was something of value which is important legally.

lawiolate campaign-finance you have to give something of value. hillary clinton's emails or something else that is tangible and specific to be determined of value to the campaign would cross that line. when you are thinking about this from a legal effective remember it is not just did they meet, did they talk, is about what did they get, what were they seeking. it has to be somewhat tangible. >> when you look at this thing going forward and the president having the position he does, you have to admire that they run a very tight, the prosecutors. -- tight ship. >> even when it's leaked friday, i don't believe it was mueller steam. i'm convinced that came from somewhere else as to how people found out to we found out so little about it, it was just there has been a sealed indictment without even knowing

who, etc.. if he really wanted to scare them for the weekend, you would have leaked something about the papadopoulos thing. that would have, oh my goodness. >> he was arrested in july and we are just learning now about his involvement. arrested already been and made the deals he made. >> thank you so much. >> we will be right back, stay with us.

♪ >> the musical director at the israel will harmonic orchestra since 1981. after 50 years with the orchestra he will retire. that is a word i don't know what he will explain it to me. currently on the seventh of american to her. i am pleased to have him back on this program at this table. locum. -- thank you. retire? why?>> after 50 years i don't think any of the conductor has served an orchestra that long.

>> i remember when you went there. >> 61. director and it is about time now. >> what are you proud of? orchestra in an the 30's, seeing the gloom of europe enveloped surroundings to -- he convinced a lot of good musicians to come to palestine which was then a cultural desert. great musicians give up their lives, seeing what was coming for them in europe. they immigrated to palestine.

call to conduct -- in 1936 he started the #orchestra -- palestine orchestra. when i first came i had most of these musicians of central europe, the orchestra of in flux in the, --s, 80's to give musicians musicians leaving the soviet union. the have all retired to third-generation back to israel. israeli boys and girls today.

by 2019, some of the else should take over. we too were a lot. -- two or -- tour a lot. i advised the orchestra committee but it is a democratic process, the whole orchestra will vote. >> vote for the successor. about choosing a new -- >> they ask a number of candidates. sevenchosen about six or the committee goes and talk to them. i stay out of it actually. >> you will continue to have a life in music. >> very much so. i've contracts with the berlin florence, and of

course i come to america sometimes. >> not as much as you used to. not much to los angeles to >> i guess conductor. i've much to be grateful for in america. i spent 30 years here. back to ellie and new york a little bit. >> when you look back on this glorious life -- >> a lot of work. i continue. am 3400 concerts with the israel philharmonic alone to new york i had done over 1000 that is my life. i love it. going from one occasion to the other. i travel with the orchestra, with the philharmonic a lot.

israel is not everybody's flavor of the month to the music we bring to these countries, we don't know who in the audience supports them, who does not support them, but after 2.5 hours of music, to have some spiritual contact. carrying theaway --sage of a tube and beethoven. >> if i said this would be your , what would you want to be part of the repertoire? >> i conduct music composed almost or hundred years. i can't choose that. isorrow night program mozart. i love it. my bmi coming back to me. i love that. -- my vienna coming back to me.

my two great friends. i have fun on stage. yes.ey will say >> they will say yes. in november,th us in new york when we come back. we have three concerts. carnegie hall. we are looking forward to it. >> i have asked you this more being a conductor is manager, psychologist, leader, so many things. >> you said it all. yes.

we have to know them individually. conducting his communication. interpretation of the symphony but to communicate, to have them play with inspiration. it is my job to be technically they should play with all their hearts. -- luckily, they have some of the great musicians to conduct. berlin or vienna they are the same thing. find where the class musicians and we interact. -- every one player is not going to say -- play the same way but they are great players and they show me their interpretation. if i agree i go along. i'm a flexible person. respectfully ie

say let's do it differently. >> ability on both parts is i'm 81.t to >> your obviously in good shape. you say what israel has given me in the last 50 years i can only give tax by having my musicians night after night play their hearts out all over the world you that is what you're getting back. >> that's true. we need very little opposition, i must say. youknow israel's situation only friendly audiences. yes you music, beethoven, mueller, mozart, that is what we inherited and we get back.

one day. >> i hope. he is a great revolutionary of 19th century. we play all his children's visit, strauss, and are in his school. we don't recognize the trunk of the tree of yet we have to do that. we have to do that. we know he was an anti-semi. we know how nazi germany used him as their propaganda. people will think that hibor and wagner lived same time. they were 50 years apart and but he was used by them. there are still people living in israel with numbers on their arms who don't want to listen to this music that they heard a time of terror. we have to wait.

>> a time of unspeakable crime. >> not something you can argue intellectual. it is an emotional thing. they don't be brought back to the days of terror. >> they deserve that. you hope at some point. >> we have to. it is the education of our audiences and the orchestra to listen to it. >> who has influenced you the most as a musician? >> my father. my father was a great musician. he formed the bombay symphony. quartets,recitals, and then my teacher in vienna who was very close to richard knowledge that he undeniablyo us was

accepted by all of us. philosophies that go -- toscanini cleaned up a month beethoven wrote it like and the inherited that, the next generation. >> do you get back to india much? >> i met last year with the israel philharmonic. going home. my greatest experience was in 1994 when i went to india after they resumed diplomatic relations with israel. after the war they had broken off. in bombay.certs great feeling.

>> anywhere you have wanted to orchestra?r. -- the but even in cairo? >> even the is really government -- i spoke myself. 78 after the great handshake that -- he thinks i need to think about my settlements. we could have gone to israel and cairo and back in one evening. king of jordan once invited me personally go to jordan. didn't happen afterwards. grexit happen.

didn't happen. ever you think we will ever ever find peace between arabs and jews and palestinian's. >> both sides wanted and but sites don't want it. --re are powers at play that the two leaders don't meet and talk it out. netanyahu -- i'm not the expert there. us of the tragedy of the assassination. >> he changed. the present leadership is not changing. they are happy with the status quo. they are happy to keep the religious happy area >> --

happy. paris? you close to >> very close. he could have brought peace to israel but he was not used enough by the israelis. , he should have taken paris with him. he wanted to do it alone at the offered a lot. it did not accepted. -- they did not accept it. have the entity would have been in their hands by now. he did not accepted for his own reasons to >> he claims he would be dead if he didn't. >> such incitement on both arts and it is still going on. anything that you

wish you would have done in music? we are looking at 100 anniversary of bernstein who did so many different things. >> great friend of the israel philharmonic. we are celebrating him next year. playing the jeremiah symphony with the vienna philharmonic. all orchestras he was very close to. >> was his genius more built as a conductor and a composer but also a teacher? >> yes. >> a great capacity to communicate. >> he was the great communicator. resurrection of the symphonies all of the world.

we were all doing it but leonard in vienna. he almost taught them have the horse with the israel philharmonic. even sightreading they sounded units -- jewish. schubert.quintet of one of the most beautiful. >> much think you and the philharmonic as you come back. thank you very much.

>> thank you for joining us. see you next time. who knew that phones would start doing everything?

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>> i'm in washington, and you are watching bloomberg technology. let's start with a check of your first word news. new york police say a vehicle veered into a bike lane near the world trade center memorial and struck pedestrians. the driver reportedly had something that resembled a gun. six people have died, and several others are wounded. a suspect is in custody. president trump gave a timeline today for what he expects to have a bill delivered to the white house. the president spoke with industry leaders. >> thanksgiving, i want all of the people standing by my side when we get ready to sign by christmas, hopefully before christmas.