♪ >> from our studios in new york city, this is "charlie rose." kenneth has consistently shifted from writing and acting on stage throughout his career. age 29.est actor at he directed and starred in his new film. here is the trailer.

>> would you mind if i join to? -- you? >> you are the world famous detective. avenger of the innocent. is that what they call you? fun.e -- assenger has died. passenger has died. he was murdered. the murderer is on the train with us now, and everyone of you is a suspect. so let us catch the killer. the man was rummaging around my cabin in the middle of the night. >> you were certain it was a man? but did you think of the dead man? when you have enemies -- would he have enemies? >> take a number. >> the real killer is rate here.

one of you people. >> i am sleeping here where everyone can see me and i can see everyone. >> who picked up the knife? >> do not trust no one. am pleased to have nagh back at this table. why this? kenneth: it is a fantastically gripping tale. she keeps alive the prospect that 15 characters might have performed this violent act of murder, which keeps you led forward. i read it when i was an wasescent when my mother ha reading crime fiction. i sensed a much darker and much more emotional tale underneath that very crowd-pleasing murder mystery. it was that that drew me in.

charlie: there was a film and? kenneth: 1974. i have the great pleasure of getting to know him a little bit in his later life. he said very clearly he wanted to make a romp with that movie. there is a wonderful cast. it allowed us to go in a different kind of direction because there is a big cinematic invitation to the spectacle. exotic locations. istanbul, the alps. a psychological mystery unfolds, which has very powerful, dirty, revenge stories. i think inside it is a story about how human loss or what shakespeare calls the poison of deep grief can do to apparently

civilized people. a can awaken the primal and something very shocking -- it can awaken the primal and something very shocking occurs. it can appeal to these genteel stories with pleasing characters. it is quite the dynamic. it is great fun for actors. charlie: and he at the center of this more than in the city? kenneth: no, i think the genius is it she brings them in and then he backs away. his mustache ludicrous. in our case, it is a fairly sizable one. they find his accent one they can condescend to. he is aware of both of these things. he could speak perfect idiomatic english, but he chooses not to. people underestimate you if they

think you are the silly foreigner. between a mustache that distances them, it was a perfectly ridiculous little man. with the stupid mustache, he was easily a retired hairdresser. [laughter] he is subject to this kind of condescension. he sits behind that waiting mask of a mustache -- charlie: the mustache is a disguise in a way? kenneth: it is. it is like a superpower but it is also a declaration of confidence and that assertion of his difference. it is half -- he is happy to be someone who is different than others. i like the mustache. i spent time grooming the mustache. that is me. i am different, and you are welcome to you. it becomes quite visual in his interaction with people. charlie: you wanted to direct and play him? kenneth: directors and

detectives are seeking the truth. he is looking for the body language under the forensic days of this investigation. it gives away whether people are lying or not. if you are directing these wonderful actors -- actually, i found myself staring so carefully because i had a chance to be in this master class with people i very much admire in a setting in itself that was big and spectacular. the acting was very intimate, personal, room sized. there was a great subtlety. that was a real pleasure to watch. thoroughbred actors. people have tremendous command of their technique. that is really breathtaking. charlie: it is said that they also read this. they took this opportunity and they felt like they couldn't let down their fellow actors because

it was so good. i have to bring my a game. kenneth: i think so. i think that was very sweet and particularly true. we had a den mother who, when everyone met for the first time, a number of actors walked up to her and curtsied because she played queens so many times. although she personally is the most down-to-earth individual. she has and or of a response to. they -- she has an auro respond to. there are 1000 different ways to come to the pictures and the cinema, but to have the event of all those people in the room at the same time playing in scenes where the camera does not cut and where it begins at one end dafoe close-up of willem and the guy in the back turns

out to be someone who was not the beginning but johnny depp. the energy in the pace of the scene is created by their interaction. fast start of actors. they have incredible intuition. you want to catch them as soon as you possibly can. one thing i learned on this was to reverse as little as possible and just try to catch the happening. charlie: knowing they can deliver. kenneth: exactly. like, i love sports and watching athletes prepping for a big event or coping with the pressure of a big event. before a wimbledon final or an olympic event. it is fascinating to watch people, particularly in warm-ups , how little they do. charlie: i am fascinated with majorea of wimbledon, the

golf event, cricket -- an individual sport, a boxing match, how the idea of the level these people play are so far removed from anything you can imagine. the talent is so extraordinary. if you reach that level, there inalso a certain sense -- the end, it is all mental. that is the difference. kenneth: i agree, and it is a fascinating thing to do -- to see at work. points to do -- there is a tiny point to do with how they enjoy it. the best of the happens when they are in some sort of zonal grace rather than fighting. they are not muscling it. charlie: there is also something

of sports called playing within yourself so you are not going 100% because you want that reserve to go beyond 100% when you need it. kenneth: when you absolutely need it. charlie: you are playing within your game. kenneth: even for people who understand it in those terms, but they intuitively see the masters of these are forms. there and youe sense there is potential and they react very swiftly, it is a compelling and attractive policy. charlie: what is your take on him and how he changes? kenneth: he begins the story declaring that there is right, wrong, and nothing in between. he wants to be a moral absolutist and hopes and believes if he can control the world in that way and have criteria for judging it, then him inr a man like

balance and chaos is distressing. he needs order. by the end of this story, what life between good and bad, he wherees a moral gray zone he has to take on the pain of other human beings that may have a right of some of polling act of violence and tremendous personal pain he may be forced understande with her in a different way. it is not as simple as he thought it might be or he hoped it could be. he carries a certain tenderness or sensitivity of soul that wishes the world could be as it should be, not as it is. for him,

-- charlie: is the world-weary about him? kenneth: this gets that he has for detection sometimes makes life unbearable. it is good in the detection of crime. he without self-pity accept that. i think he is melancholic. he also has -- he is belgium and he has a delightful eccentricity. he loves reading charles dickens and being tickled by it that he likes puddings and deserts of all kinds. in those moments, he is like a child. charlie: who interests you as a film director? kenneth: quite literally and recently, i had a wonderful experience with christopher nolan. with 65 milliliter millimeter cameras.

there was an immersive quality that it brought. people i admire people who when i have a lucky chance of being near them have this incredible capacity to touch on the things we are discussing. high-level performance. they are prepared, have technical skills, and can dance with it. they can lift off. i saw christopher nolan do that. incredible technical knowledge about the making but also of his subject. he knew it inside out, but then he puts himself in the situation where there are so many planeses, logistically and boats and tanks and thousands of people. therefore, he is able to work alsothe prepared piece but deal with the chaos and somehow have that quiver of life underneath something that has prepared.beautifully

at that stage, you hope you get a great collision between the preparation of a great artist and the living in the moments of the same artist. charlie: someone told me he is totally immersive. kenneth: yes. the focus is wonderful to see. imagined,im is what i a great painter in front of the canvas. it is riveting. the power of concentration is striking. you feel as though you are seeing a beam come out of their eyes. prowlsr sits down, so he the set all day. it is like he is in a trance. charlie: he does everything, from costumes, dialect -- kenneth: yes. usually, i'm in a costume sitting. you receive pictures and you trust everybody else. not that he doesn't trust them, but he is there. it is a very impressive and particular thing. charlie: directing is one thing

and acting as another. doing them both at the same time, what is the secret? have you let go -- what do let go of, if anything? kenneth: i have specific help. my associate was europe the table talking about shakespeare before and another friend who is a performance consultants. they were there at various times on this picture to say no, yes, more, less. i was so warmed up. i prepared all of this underneath the theater season we were doing where i was on stage every night. it found a bit mad, but imaginatively, your sword wind-u -- you are so warmed up. i believe in practice because it gets rid of all the superficial -- i used to call them nervous, but i now call them excitement. it is a more positive and useful way of thinking about it. the thing is, because of directing, i have the luxury of being able to ask, in this case,

, these other brilliant actors but also of myself to put yourself in front of the camera when you are not quite ready. years, i haveo started to fill close-ups at the becauseg of the day, i am trying to capture that rawness. i do not want to be too prepared. i want something imperfect. i learned to create conditions were you.learn to do that it is uncomfortable, but the goal is to present life. in this case, if you are comfortable in your presenting a murder mystery, some of that tension is helpful. charlie: in terms of over preparation, the goal is to stimulate your spontaneity. it is the only thing i ought to do. other people have argued to me in terms of this kind of thing that you do not want to know too much. you want to know a lot, but not too much.

you do not want to be hostage to what you know. you want you know, in a sense, to inspire you. kenneth: i agree. i agree and i think finding that balance between how much you prepared in order to achieve liftoff for -- particularly with the weird, mysterious process of performance. my expenses in the classics where if you have been able to do that with a technically challenging medium like shakespeare, you learn, practice, apply all sorts of intellectual rigor. [no audio] if you have been able to do that, you apply rigor to it. essentially, you're hoping when you lift off, the park will play you. andunderstand in the mind in the arts of the great poetic writer, there is something

beyond words. there is something beyond intellect. you have a chance for the audience to experience it. other than the fact that it had a great star and a great director, why do you think dunkirk resonated? kenneth: in a way, it was a kind of mystery. that, --o charlie: for people who don't know, tell people what this is about. evacuation from the mainland. kenneth: yes. may 1940, the british were pushed back to the french coast with a lot of the french army, as well. the goal was to evacuate them from that campaign with germans. running through belgium.

essentially, the entire british army was stuck on a long stretch of beach, ready to be picked off and then air forces incursion of the land forces. in a brief and miraculous spell, those 400,000 men were rescued largely by the british navy, but in the gap that was literally how close boats could get to the shore because of the way the title system -- tidal system worked, nearly 800 small boats from the u.k. came across the channel numerously. in some cases, there is a canoe that came across to get some of these boys. it, andhill called amazing deliverance. a miracle, even though you would call it a retreat or as the germans might call it, a defeat. i suppose -- charlie: the darkest moment.

it gave the brits. kenneth: i suppose it encapsulated the universal idea that however dark, if there is a determination not to give up or to put one foot in front of the other and trust and put asr faith in basic humanity, it were your fellows came to meet you and let the hand, that is a beautiful idea. that you need not give up because the rest of humanity will not give up on you. charlie: and much success with this. murder on the orient express. back in a moment. stay with us. ♪

charlie: george saunders is here, widely hailed as master of the short story. he released his first novel earlier this year. it was awarded the prestigious man booker prize last month. in a review from the new york times, it wrote lincoln in the bardo -- it is a numerous thing watch a writer you have enjoy for years reach a higher level of achievement. welcome. tell me about winning the booker prize. you do not know when you go to the dinner. george: i kept getting a message that it was not going to happen and i should not get my hopes up. charlie: last year was the first

time an american ever won. nervous to eatoo my dinner and i was just applauding when someone else won. it was a very surprising night. charlie: did you have to give a speech? george: i did, and being a good southside catholic, i had prepared just in case. [laughter] charlie: what did you tell them? george: i talked about the historical moment we are in and the inclination in times of difficulty is th is to kind of demonize the other -- is to kind of demonize the other. in a literary way, the other is just us on a different day. aquoted a writer, who has short story called i stand here ironing, in which he says of the he hopes's daughter, the daughter will no understand she is not helpless

like the stress under the iron. can reassure ourselves that we are not helpless and we are not alone. in true literature and true intellectual engagement, we can hold each other up in a difficult time. regardless of your clinical inclination. literature is a force for communication and compassion. a time like this is maybe when we need it the most. charlie: in difficult circumstances or to give support be iners whom we feel may the same place we are? george: i think both, especially the latter of the people who may be being crushed over a little bit. those in -- those who are not in that category need to be especially attentive. especially the way we make our way in the world, literature has been a way to soften borders between people. taking down projections and taking big, dismissive concepts seeing them as

different characters. breaking down something that is a very shallow mode of social media, where you tend to think anthe other person as invisible, anonymous other. literature turns around and says the person you think who is your enemy, given enough time and care and love, will be seen to be very similar to you. even if they are different in the world, we emanate from the same group. when maybe is a time certain tendencies to minimize art are treated as an indulgence indulgence is an called into question. we should recognize art as the way people think about the world. we think most deeply about the world when we are engaged in a work of art. charlie: your best known for writing short stories. everybody wondered when you would write a novel.

george: i slipped up. [laughter] charlie: this is an idea you have had for a wild. george: for over 20 years. i heard the story back in the 90's that he went into his son's cript. he died of typhoid. i heard the idea back in the 1990's and thought that is good for someone to write, but probably not me. i think part of an artist's job is to know your limits. at that point, i was carving out a little place for myself and there was no intersection between what i could do and what this book would require. over the years, i just got older and a little bit -- i kind of felt like, well, i have lived as much as anybody. in some ways, the circles started to intercept a little more. charlie: and you said why not? george: yes, in fact, i said you better. if you have a small town like i do and you work it, you do not

want to leave anything on the table and you do not want to get the point where i was kind of at. where it scared me so much i almost turned away from the challenge, and you're kind of done for the rest of your life as an artist. it was a harrowing period where i thought it might be hard and might work, but in the thick of future work you have to give it a try. george: you just -- charlie: you decided to do it through the vehicle of monologues? george: yes. a former student of mine wrote me a letter and said if you ever wrote a novel, it would be in the form of monologues. when he said that, i got this artistic feeling. i got excited like, yeah, that could be good. with lincoln and a book like this, you're trying to find a way and that isn't sort of dead on arrival. it has a little bit of potential in it, maybe even a little bit of self confusion. as you are writing some of the best feeling as i am not sure this is going to work. this monologue form made it to the very end, not all a

foreground conclusion that it might work. charlie: all the way to the end, you were not sure? george: right. that was one of the funny things about a novel. you really do not know because it doesn't go out into the world until you are done. with the story, maybe publishing along the way and get some feedback. with this book, i do not know if it is really difficult. sometimes people are saying that it is. it certainly got a narrow entry point. the first 30 pages are kind of disorienting by design. i was not sure if people would take that gamble with me and if they would find at the end it paid off. that was the thing i was least certain about. charlie: and you have historical characters. lincoln, his wife, and his two sons? george: yes. and some other real people. charlie: there is a dinner at the white house. george: right. there was a famous party the lincoln's had. one of the things that drew me in was the heartbreaking idea that the lincolns were going to

have this big reception to save some money. right before the day, will he and his brother got sick. -- sick.and his brother got the doctor said he will be ok and go ahead and have that party. he could probably hear the marine band from upstairs. every parent's nightmare that somehow you did something that hastens your child. charlie: you refer to love? george: the thing that kept coming up in my mind when i wrote this book was this weird dilemma. we are designed it to love one another and we find so much meaning in it. in my darkest hour, i think what matters is what i love. so that is fine. and then you look at from that and realized that it is the other a negotiable truth of our

life, you end. toseems a little hard reconcile. this book is set on the night when he is trying to do just that. he cannot deny he loves his son and he knows it in his body. and yet, like goes on -- life goes on and he have to leave the country out of this war. charlie: what is the definition of barto? george: a transitional state. we are in the barto between life birth and death. lincoln himself as a kind of this barto of having to quickly transition out of grief -- bardo of having to quickly transition out of grief. the battle atad, sands deaddson -- thou and no clear winners and it will go on for a long time. charlie: in fact, he said about

capturing the character of lincoln, "when i was writing lincoln, it was a comment oriole thing. part me,. part him . i was practicing my ideas onto his revolutionary reality. i was trying to mimic him, his voice, his way of thinking." george: one of the reasons i delayed was because who wants to write lincoln? as a craftsperson, you are not writing lincoln. you are writing a father and a husband on a certain night in a certain graveyard in a certain kind of weather, assuming different postures at different times of the evening. you can prepare yourself a little bit. i read all of his speeches and try to get some of his rhythm in my head so i can later discard it as needed. in the end, you're projecting onto him. you are saying here is why need lincoln to be. here is what i hope lincoln was. what i loved about writing him was, in that situation, when you say to yourself, who was lincoln, you find yourself bringing out the best in you.

regard, theself best moments you have had. the moments when you felt most loving our generous. those are the moments you'd ascribed to him. to saya kind of party forget all the other guys you are, george. can you summon up lincoln for three minutes a day? charlie: he spent a lot of time being prepared to do that. he spent five years of heavy research, didn't you? george: i was researching as i read and those 15 years before i started. my model is you almost imagine you have a hopper over your head and you put everything in it that you can. everything about the historical. period, everything about lincoln. and when you start writing, you say i will not worry about that. my job is to make a dramatic machine. a something true will help me, i will use it. if something fabricated will help, i will use that. charlie: how many times did he go into the crypt?

george: we do not know. the newspaper said on several occasions. some may say is that one, tw, four, eight? same night? successive nights? the emotionl cause to heighten is the right answer. in this case, i wrote three successive nights, but when i wrote the next day at the white house, it becomes boring. so i wrote it happens in one night. charlie: having completed it and receiving the booker prize, how to that make you feel? obviously good but why did i do this earlier? it was a mountain i could always climb, i am glad he did it? george: from the time i was first writing, i noticed if you got praised her criticism, good luck or bad luck, the best way to handle it was to if it is good enjoy it for a minute, if it is bad wee for a couple

minutesp. the kind of try to fold it into the next book. whatever it is, i hope it does not mess me up. for this book, one of the nice things was to take a chance, it madethe form and i me bring in the emotional range of little bit. forhis might not say much my self-esteem, but when i get praised, it makes me think i can try something harder. the main thing right now is it is a wonderful memory. in the note to self, try something even weirder. charlie: turning to the reality of politics. you wrote about trump supporters. where is all this anger coming from? by discourse. ideological

countries, left and right, and speaking different languages. the lines between us down. how do you get the lines back up? george: and that was a year and a half ago. charlie: it hasn't gotten better. george: no it hasn't. things i'mwo thinking about now. one is do not despair. andre walking on the street people are in despair. the second thing is take a little bit of a diagnostic look at social media. this is not a new thought. charlie: diagnostically look. george: to say if i read toni morrison for four hours and go on social media for four hours, wash my mind and body afterwards, two almost different species are working there. if we multiply it by 20 million, it is not surprising that our communication is getting a little abrupt and anxious and agitated and our empathy is receiving. i do not

eding. i have been thinking about my own responsibilities to my whattual life and

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this would be the good old days. i am pleased to have him at this table for the very first time. tell me the difference in rap and hip-hop. rap is something that you do, and element of the culture. hip-hop is under the umbrella. rap is an element. it is one of the elements of pride. charlie: you are a rap artist or hip-hop artist are both? macklemore: both. hip-hop artist.

i think if it resonates with you it is part of who you are. charlie: when did it first pump your heart? macklemore: seven years old. it was the first music that gave me goosebumps. charlie: tell me how you developed. just doing it? macklemore: just doing it. i did not have some crazy talent. i had work ethic. it was a high school group of five of us. i would definitely the worst in the group at the beginning. the worst. find a way, i used to get on stage and screen, lose my voice -- and scream, lose my voice after a song, had no breath control. i figured i wasn't great because i would listen back to the tapes and say these guys, their verses are better than mine. so i bought a karaoke tape

deck from a thrift shop and practice and practice and practice and stayed in my room four years practicing -- for years practicing. charlie: when did somebody finally tell you, hey, you are good? macklemore: i knew i was getting good when i wanted to listen to myself. , but ine thing to do it want to hear that song that i made. when you find that pocket or your voice or find out who you are as a person and that is translating to a record, that is when you realize, ok. i have something here. charlie: tell me about what privilege. macklemore: the most challenging song i had ever written, i believe it is around nine minutes. we wanted to take the listener on a visual journey, starting at

a black lives matter protest rally. talk about white supremacy and nine minutes is impossible. we wanted to start the place of the rally and come from kind of my perspective of showing up to that, not knowing if i can say at the time black lives matter. this is when the term first got introduced to the public. thetroduced it coming after non-indictment of michael brown. do i start there? i'm in my own head. through the listener this protest in different perspectives. charlie: is there an element of your music being socially conscious? macklemore: absolutely. heart -- ifg on my something on my heart is in it with me on a personal level, i am attempting to put into a song.

i read an article my mom sent me about a kid getting bullied in school who committed suicide. i wanted to touch on that. i tried to write from the perspective of that kid. ryan lewis, my producer, said no. that is not your story to tell but you do have a story to tell in this. my story was growing up in a day area of seattle, washington capitol hill. having two gay uncles. i thought because my uncles were gay and being good at art, that made me get. just being -- gay. just being a kid. talking about popular culture and how we use degrading terminology. just in general, speaking on the subject of marriage equality. that is something that was heavy on my heart after reading that article. around that time, that was when you have president obama come out for the first time in

support of same-sex marriages. you're watching society of all in the conversation of all and some of these negative terms being thrown around not become the norm and get called out. ♪ >> and i can't change, even if i tried. even if i wanted to. my love, my love, my love me warm. she keeps me warm. she keeps me warm. she keeps me warm. if it is on my heart, i will want to put it into a record. i do not just make socially conscious music, but it is a

part of who i am and it will translate to the song. charlie: workshop came along -- thrift shop came along when? macklemore: 2012. it was about shopping at secondhand clothing stores. it is something i have done forever, getting back to the original karaoke tape deck. personality, i always resonated with shopping at secondhand stores. buying artwork and records and jackets and everything in between. charlie: what is it you think about that song? macklemore: it is an anomaly. no liar, for some reason the saxophone riff, but i am rapping itut, the timing, the hook, just kind of added up to the music video. it all added up to this cultural moment, and i do not think anything have heard anything like it. i was brand-new to people. here comes the sky in a used --

here comes this guy in a used cheetah coat on a scooter with a slurpee. it spoke to people. ♪ ♪ this one?hat is in macklemore: gemini, it is all over the place. it is multiple things, and i think that is something i always

embraced about my personality. i might have a socially conscious record here, or a record where i am battling or i am a little bit flashy on this side. that is what gemini is embracing. by multiple sides. it is my astrology sign. this dual personality. charlie: first solo album in how many years? macklemore: 12. there was some drug use in their. slowed me down -- in threre. slowed me down for sure. charlie: he went to rehab. macklemore: my dad approached me and asked me if i was happy and i said no. that is for drugs and alcohol lead me. they lead me to isolation, depression, stagnation, lack of creativity.

that is why was at that moment. when he asked me that question, i reflected and answered no and check in about a week later. charlie: when was this? macklemore: charlie: 2008. nine years ago -- macklemore: 2008. charlie: nine years ago. doing ok? macklemore: doing ok. it has not been a perfect journey, but it is monday at a time and i have sometime within my belt. i have a program of recovery now. i did not have that before. i was that i could do it on my own. i could tighten up the lid and stop if i wanted. it is part of the addict. if you do not know what what a recovery community looks like, if you have never experienced that, there is no way you can know when you think you can do it by self-will. the my experience and expense of millions of others, self-willed is not work. it is a disease and should be treated as such.

charlie: categorize or you are today. this is the first allow them in 12 years. more solo stuff? more experimentation? macklemore: yeah, i think life is an experiment. i want to keep experiencing, absolutely. i have a two and a half-year-old daughter and a beautiful wife and another baby on the way in march. charlie: life is good. macklemore: life is amazing. that is such a huge part of my foundation now, it's my family. and then you have the musical side. so it is a balance. it is a balance right now of being on the road, promoting this album, sharing it with fans, traveling around the world, and exposing this music to as many people as possible while also being a father. i am loving both of those. charlie: it is great to have you here. macklemore: it is great to be here. charlie: congratulations on everything. album gemini, macklemore. thank you for joining us.

see you next time. ♪ retail.

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8:00 a.m. in hong kong come alive from bloomberg's asian headquarters. i am yvonne man. welcome to "daybreak asia." president trump says world leaders are treating america with a long-lost respect. softbank may invest in saudi arabia. they could see a new high-tech city on the red sea coast. sending badge of honor, tencent to a blowout quarter, enjoying its fastest growth in seven years. and self driving cars, the future is on the line. we're live it id