with 30 minutes dedicated to fixed income, this is "bloomberg real yield." coming up, a shakeup in the european bond market. political risks spreading from italy to spain. treasuries -- 30 year yield trading were 10 year yields were a week ago. the central bank finally stepping in, desperately trying to regain some credibility. we begin with a big issue, political risk in europe making a comeback. >> italy is the toughest call tactically here.

in general, six to 24 months down the road is going to be -- >> not just because of the level, but because of the speed with which these assets every priced. >> you don't have the vast pool of market coming in backstopping the bond market and keeping peripheral spreads from widening. >> the spreads widening from italy relative to bunds, and that is having a contagion effect with some of the other peripheral markets. >> we prefer u.s. treasuries are european sovereign bonds. >> italy has quite a lot of debt but you have to look at the coupons of the bonds which are maturing and the coupons which they are going to replace. >> the europe story has run its course. there is a lot of money that left. jonathan: joining me around the table is henry peabody. and bloomberg's lisa abramowicz. guys, it is great to catch up with you.

henry, i want to begin with you. why is so much of this happening in europe at the front end? we have seen volume explode, intraday moves of some 20 basis points on two years, why all of that? henry: there is a bit of a curve flattening going on. you see the risk coming out of the front end of the market with liquidity. what has happened in europe? you have seen fairly solid improvement over the last handful of years -- debt sustainability, lower interest cost, but they have not grown to the degree the rest of the continent has. there is a reason for unrest there. the question is, how do you decouple italy from europe, and you do not. that is the issue. will it get worse before it gets better, probably. but the need to start thinking about, when is there an entry point? jonathan: to make that judgment call, you also have to pick about, what are we pricing in?

this is a government forming that wants to spend more, and that just means we are pricing in more supply. which one is it, lisa? it feels like the latter and not the former, given the fact that we spend around 2.5%. lisa: it feels like the ecb is running out of room to suppress the yields on the ecb. it does seem like since we are getting to the end of that stimulus, the deficit starts to matter again. henry: exactly. these things do not matter until they do. when you have bedrock assumptions that institutions are going to keep these ratios in check, when you have those bedrock assumptions pulled out, all the sudden you are priced on fundamentals again. that is what we are in the process of doing. jonathan: i still wonder if this is a classic eurozone mood swing, in the sense that things start to fall out of bed, but the lesson of last year or so is that you profit from fading political risk in europe.

we saw that in catalonia and france. what's to say we will not see that in italy, too? >> you have been paid to buy the dip for the last several years. we have all gotten used to it and some traders are getting too comfortable with that. this could be worse. there really is not a lot of interesting things to look forward to in italy. they don't even get to go to the world cup this year. we've got to get a lot cheaper before we get in. jonathan: henry peabody, let's not talk about the world cup. my father's italian. you are going to get us into trouble. i think we have to understand what the reaction function is of the ecb to really make a call on ecb presence on this. is there a line in the sand? this line in the sand has been around the 240 mark. significant? we have reached that level now.

why is that a key level for so many people? >> i'm not sure that it is. one of the things the ecb has the opportunity to do is instill a little discipline. with the political shift in italy, they have the opportunity to fight back as they are pulling back. let's watch as this plays out. i think matt is right and that we do probably see this gets weaker before it gets better. lisa: hold on a second. what you are saying is fascinating. you are saying the ecb would perhaps not step in on purpose, perhaps allowing yields the blowout in order to send them a message. >> it would not be the first time that the ecb would be accused of having political motives. i think what you asked is really important because from a technical standpoint, to understand the ecb's reaction function, to justify stepping in aggressively, they would have to say the moves in italy are harming the transition mechanism.

do you see the moves in italy spreading to spain at the moment? do you see anything that can credit the ecb the justification to step in aggressively and say, transmission mechanism is being harmed by what is happening? >> no. not at this point. you are seeing a shift in tone from the central bankers to one away from pushing volatility down to one fighting inflation. the ecb is being pulled in another direction and that they cannot keep rates so low for so long that they further invert or threaten to invert the u.s. curves. they do not want to be an accomplished to an unwind a leverage -- an accomplice in an unwind in leverage to u.s. rates. jon: they are looking to line down the whole qe program, so you just spotted the headline -- lisa: it goes to henry's point. they are not coming out as doves. this indicates it is game on. we want to exit quantitative easing, and if you have a political problem, that is your issue.

jonathan: if you want to price this, let's talk about the spread were italy trades right now. italy trades closer to greece now on a 10 year yield basis than it does to germany. does that make sense? >> it does. they have real substantial issues here. the ecb, they are going to have to be accommodative but not step in from a political standpoint. it gets worse before it gets better. jonathan: does it make sense to you, henry? henry: it does. we have a lot of longs in italy, a lot of positioning that needs to get on wild. unwound. the technicals are going to be very important. you need to respect them. jon: let's talk another level. italy over spain -- does that make sense? does it make sense to have a multitiered bond market in the

eurozone were people start applying the term semicall to spain? >> if we are getting to the point where we are going to have a multispeed europe, if this table,rce germany to the you do need to see some form of differentiation. when you have compressed spreads , greece trading on top of germany, bad things happen. lisa: i am looking at the spanish gdp and the acceleration we are expecting. it is a better economy than the italian economy. period. the end. does it make sense for there to be differentiation between the economies? yeah, that's what a bond market is to be. jonathan: that is what should be. lisa: yeah. jonathan: but it hasn't been. will it be? is the ecb going to allow this to happen? and if italy went, and i am not saying that anybody's having real discussions about that happening, but if they went, the

whole thing comes apart, doesn't it? lisa: they are going to step in eventually. the issue is that this is not enough to scare them off. this is not enough for the ecb to try to take action yet. perhaps at a point when people start to talk about the 2011 european crisis more seriously, maybe then. jonathan: is this a bite at 250, 245? >> not quite yet. but you always need to buy what others are selling to accumulate a position. you look at the banks as a barometer. you are looking at five to 10 points depending on currency down for a name like unicredit. it does not seem like you are seeing enough selling pressure, yet. jonathan: everybody is sticking with me, henry peabody, matt brill, and lisa abramowicz. coming up, the auction block. the second largest corporate bond sale this year. that conversation is next. ♪

the united states treasury auctioned more than $270 billion of bonds this week. i want to highlight the highest level since july 2008.

the share for primary dealers was the highest since december. on the corporate side, bonds to help fund the acquisition in the second-largest u.s. corporate bond sale this year. this week, hungary supply stopped junk-bond investors. triple c rated five-year-old they arelding 5% and trading above the issue price. outside of europe, the em crisis in turkey. take a listen. >> this is serious. i do not know that by itself, the central bank of turkey is going to be able to withstand this. >> when you have the administration saying they are going to take over the central

bank, this is a country that is facing a lot of uncertainty. >> even in the healthy countries, politics have a way of destroying economic policies. in turkey, politics has a way of making bad economic policies even worse. >> there needs to be more, and i think that is what the market is telling the turkish central bank here. the question is whether they will remain with some semblance of independence. >> things are very different now. >> anybody that is an importer of energy, they should be running scared, to be honest. jonathan: still with me, henry peabody, lisa abramowicz, and matt brill. is that enough? >> not yet. just a week ago, the question was whether the president or the central bank was in charge.

who was in charge was the market, and the market forced them to do it. the market forced them to hike 300 basis points. we saw a little reprieve in the lira. day, they arethe going to be fined, but they are probably going to have to be pushed to the brink one more time before they realize the market is going to demand this. you cannot have a president talking about central-bank policy he does not believe works. jonathan: henry, let me to rethink your point and make it bigger narrative that has been the story of the week. you take turkey and you make an em crisis and compare it to the 1990's. by definition, it is not the 1990's, because they had a fixed rate regime compared to what we have now. you might say we might get a crisis, but to compare it to the 1990's -- >> a lot of development since the 1990's. exchange rates are not fixed. the turkey question is really an interesting one.

they are in a vortex between being late to the hike, between presidential interference, between the president calling for an ease. know, aside from it being potentially cheap on a real effective exchange rate basis, you don't know why you are jumping into this. compare that to brazil, that also went through the ringer. compare that to argentina. there are currencies that have weakened substantially the have offered a more sound reason for voting for the long-term. turkey is not somewhere that is remotely expensive and enough to -- remotely inexpensive enough to get involved with. lisa: to your point of what narrative you want to paint, here is one that a lot of people are coming to. emerging markets as a whole look better than they did in the late 1990's. there are idiosyncratic stories, turkey among them, african

nations that have become so indebted in this period of easy money that any little hiccup is going to cost a serious issue. jon: there was a big overweight and a big consensus position. what is your view? you maintain it despite the events of the last couple of weeks? matt: if you told me that oil is roughly $70 a barrel and that em would be down for were 5% on the year, i would have -- would be down 4% or 5% of the year, i would have told you you are crazy. but that is what has happened. right now, anybody that has a large external deficit and is relying on their exchange rate to be solid is under a lot of pressure. argentina, turkey, you want to stay away from them for now. there is a better entry point for each of those. if you can stick with things like mexico, pam x looks very attractive right now. x were able to buy pam

10 year bonds at 60%. we are going to go that route rather than try to pick some of these other credits. jonathan: on oil, that has been a really difficult part of all of this. if you're importing a ton of crude the way turkey is, higher oil is bad news for turkey, good news for russia. it is not a blanket, em, ok story. >> no. it is higher oil and a higher dollar. the cost of capital is increasing on two fronts. it is very, very rough. the oil situation is an interesting question. what you have now is essentially the u.s. and saudi going after iran and russia. today's opec announcement as an acknowledgment of that. jonathan: and crude getting hammered to close out the week as the saudis signaled they can close out. you have higher short-term rates in the states, crude has been rallying, and the dollar has been strengthening. on the latter, crude gets really uncertain, and the dollar is what fascinates me.

i have spoke with investors this week who have a conviction call on the em and a really flaky call on the dollar. i don't know how you can reconcile the two things. if you are going to have conviction on em, can you have a flaky call on the dollar? lisa: this is a great question. so far, em and the dollar have moved in sync. this is to be expected since a lot of their debt is dollar denominated. everyone is saying good there are idiosyncratic stories with in emerging markets but so much of the money has gone into index funds. at what point do people pull out of index funds and the idiosyncrasies do not matter anymore? jonathan: it becomes a story for everybody. lisa abramowicz sticking with me. in the markets this week, we shape up as follows. the bonds, twos, tens, and 30's over the last five trading days. remarkable stability coming through the curve. seven, 10ields down

year yields down 13 basis points, and the 30 year trading where the 10 year was about a week ago. a real reversal of this market. the story returns. still ahead, the final spread the u.s. jobs report. this is bloomberg real yield. ♪

jonathan: i am jonathan ferro. this is "bloomberg real yield." it is time for the final spread. coming up, a reminder that u.s. and u.k. markets will be closed on monday. we will have a series of u.s. economic reports including the payrolls report and a reading on gdp. plus, the fed's base book and the g7 meeting for central bankers. for final thoughts, still with me is henry peabody, lisa abramowicz, and matt brill. matt, as we look ahead to

payrolls, i want to highlight a story in the treasury market. it is this remarkable stability that has come about in the front end of the curve. two-year yields close out the week for the fourth straight week. what is the signal that comes from that? matt: we had such a big run-up in the beginning of the year where everyone was concerned about inflation. we have gotten to a much more stable place. we felt the fed minutes this past week were telling you that the fed is for free for all of 2018m and that is why the two-year has held where it is. jon: how important is that? henry: the fed is pretty important. i think the policy is the -- i think the policy is going to be -- matt's point is a good one. delta -- it is gargantuan.

now the delta is at three hikes or four. that front end, the delta are that ties in with dollar strength, is not necessarily going to be so big. i personally thought the fed minutes were interesting in that the feds seem to build in a lot of flexibility. they said we will take inflation higher, a steeper curve, there are conversations around the dot plot going away, so the fed is introducing ambiguity into the market, which is healthy. lisa: people are finding cash attractive. we are hearing a growing number of investors saying they are increasing the allocation to cash. how are they getting the allocation? in two-year treasuries. there is a balance going on. become anhas 250 entry point for a lot of people to buy into the front end of the curve? >> yeah. you are hearing a lot of big investors. us, that is not something we are enamored by. we think there is a lot more

pain to be felt in the front end. jonathan: matt, what are your thoughts on that? matt: we're looking at corporate credit. over the past three months, only about 40% of the whole ig market had yields, and now we are at 80%. we think it is a very attractive trade. you can sleep at night and you don't have to weather the volatility. jonathan: matt brill, thank you. we are going to end into a with the rapidfire round, some short, quick questions. we begin with the italian 10 year or the spanish 10 year. which one would you buy or hold? henry: spain. lisa: the consensus is spain. matt: spain. jonathan: ok, i will swap it up a bit. 10 year bonds or 10 year treasuries through year-end. henry? henry: treasuries, but not an emphatic endorsement. lisa: i would think the markets

position is towards bunds. matt: i'll take treasuries. jonathan: have we seen the high on the 10 year yield for 2018? i like to recycle that question. have we seen the high on the 10-year yield? henry: no. lisa: the consensus is no. matt: no. jonathan: henry peabody, lisa abramowicz, and matt brill. thank you very much for your time. from new york city, that does it for us. enjoy the three-day weekend if you get one. ♪

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