emily: i'm emily chang. this is "bloomberg technology." live from the wired summit in san francisco, we will bring you some of the top minds in technology. stay tuned for interviews with kitty hawk sebastian, and the intel vice president who is working on the future of a.i. first, to our top story. the fallout over the disappearance of a saudi

government critic into the questions it is raising in the world of technology, from silicon valley all the way to softbank. jamal khashoggi went missing after entering the saudi consulate in the stumble on october 2. turkey says the saudi government had him murdered. one company with close ties to the saudi government is softbank. fund'sgdom is the vision biggest backer, pledging $90 billion to their tech fund. and on monday, stopping shares fell by as much as 7%, erasing $22 billion in market value. this comes during a global tech selloff that began must week. to discuss we have eric newcomer and our columnist max chafkin. this is a rapidly developing story of a trade that involves businesses and government, so what is at stake? max: huge geopolitical stakes s for president trump

and the midterm elections, but in silicon valley softbank and by extension the saudis, they have become a center of last results -- resort for these late stage privately held at tech companies trying to put off an ip. companies -- ipo. if cavities feeling they could not take money from saudi arabia, it could put a wrench in the venture capital market. emily: several tech leaders have cozied up to the saudi government, and also to softbank, not the least of which is uber, in which is softbank is a huge investor now. so several leaders, business leaders have dropped out of an upcoming summit, davos in the desert, one of them is the uber ceo. he says he is very troubled by the reports about jamal khashoggi, and we are following

the situation closely and unless a different set of facts emerge, i will not be attending the conference. so, eric, not mincing words. that is hard to back down from. thornyes, this is a very situation for uber. because, sure they are soul-searching about what to do about softbank money, but uber has taken $3.5 billion from the saudis. and has representative -- has a representative on their board. so the decision to walk away from the conference, and even before some of the big names had started to pull out, was a tough decision for dara, but i also think there was a calculation that this is a consumer company that had a terrible year last year for making questionable decisions, so they needed to move quickly and take a stand. emily: in the meantime, several

business leaders have dropped out, or off of the board that was supposed to be helping the saudi government develop this future city. and we have not, if i'm correct, heard anything yet from softbank. max: no, the stock price plummeted, as you said, earlier today. know, it is basically a situation where softbank is so saudis, ith the could be hard to untangle the situation. it is $100 billion, $45 billion of it is from saudi arabia, and the plan for a second vision fund called for another $1 billion, another 25 coming from softbank, so it is the biggest chunk of the fund. it is hard to see how you can go -- how he can go through with these plans if there is not some kind of, you know, some kind of story emerges that makes people

feel more comfortable doing business with saudi arabia. emily: eric, you also have a major saudi ally caudally - - calling for a boycott of uber. what is the latest? eric: uber is always under fire. i think that a boycott at this point, we will have to see. i think it is hard to say. emily: now, max, let's talk about some of the other business relationships at stake. the saudis have a huge stake in tesla. and endeavor, the entertainment company is in the process of severing ties with the saudi wealth fund. they had a 14 million -- a $400 million deal, excuse me, that is at stake. so how do we expect this to continue to unfold? max: you have to think that elon

musk feels like he dodged a bullet by not securing funding, as he had bragged about, with the saudi arabians. because it would be another crisis for it has left, but instead -- for tesla, but instead they're just dealing with their stock price. it is a situation where a few months back, mohammed was going all over the u.s., having dates with sergey brin and many other tech moguls. and it just feels like this whole, this kind of romance between silicon valley and the public investment fund -- it is maybe not coming to an end, but certainly people are rethinking that relationship right now. emily: the head of google cloud, diane greene, just dropped out of the davos in the desert conference. the u.s. government also has a very closely watched relationship with the saudi government, president trump has said that u.s. officials are

looking into this. how could how the u.s. weighs in on this impact all of these other relationships? eric: one thing i think is interesting, you mentioned the possible boycott of uber, one thing that has happened to basically every kind of company -- everything is becoming politicized. we saw it today, president trump kind of ducking questions, or seeming to defend a saudi arabia to some extent. and you can imagine a situation where any tech company that has taken money from saudi arabia or connected to saudi arabia, could get wrapped into the same kind of polarization, including the boycotts or #campaigns that we saw a really hurt uber last year. you could see is billing over to other companies. emily: how big is uber's business in the middle east, a business that could potentially be affected as a result of this? eric: i do not think there is a

number to put to it. it is a region that the company sort of is thinking about aggressively, they have been in acquisition talks there, and they want to remain a major player. the story of uber internationally has been one of retreat in some ways. in china, southeast asia, russia -- so the middle east is a region where uber has wanted a sort of have a strong presence. so i do not think that they are backing away from it because of this controversy. emily: well, we will continue to cover this story as it develops. max and eric, thank you. coming up, walmart looking to become a one-stop shop to resale other company's streaming services, similar to the way amazon and apple do. the idea would be to let customers of voodoo pay for an additional service, like hbo now.

they are attempting to stem declining dvd sells by turning customers into users of online services. and wired magazine hits a quarter century. what is in store for its five years? we will speak -- for its next 25 years? we will speak about it. and paving the way to empower those with disabilities to have a features in technology,, and more, later this hour -- and more, later this hour. this is bloomberg. ♪

emily: welcome back to a special edition of "bloomberg technology." since launching 25 years ago,

"wired" has become an iconic brand in the tech industry and is celebrating its birthday with a four day summit and a special issue highlighting 25 icons in technology like bill gates, mark zuckerberg, and more. our next guest is the editor in chief, nicholas thompson. great to have you. what i love about the summit is the theme is you have asked prominent tech leaders to nominate the next generation of tech leaders. why did you decide to do it that way, and why do you think it has been so impactful? nicholas: we had conversations on how do you celebrate, but if you just choose the people who have helped shape the last 25 years it is less fun. emily: it will always be the same people. nicholas: and then if you just choose those that will shape the next 25 years, you never have heard of them, so this was a way of looking backwards and forwards. emily: you have unexpected names that people may not have heard

of. an undergrad who gave a very powerful speech, then reminded us that she was only turning 19 years old. and a professor from stamford, a young will paint -- women working on currency at m.i.t., so how do you choose these people, but also not overhyped things that will ultimately not turn out? such a risk in technology. nicholas: when you look back, how many of these people are still known? we offloaded that decision, because we asked each of our icons, we said, pick somebody yourself. so if it turns out these picks do not have a huge influence, that is on them. emily: jeff bezos was on stage and in the cover story. this -- for this celebration, it is blue origin and space. and it is interesting to hear him talk about space as the most important thing, he believes, he is working on. and something he is passionate

about, but he is also working on all these other things. so how do you see this space race evolving? with the tech billionaires at the home. -- the helm. nicholas: some of the most influence of people in the world, they are all fixated on this similar idea, but to me it is -- it is all positive. there is no harm that comes out of the effort. so lord knows, we might need this enough along and there is nd incredible of our indy -- r coming along. emily: so it looks like we are coming out of a period of adulation and into a period of tech hating, to put it frankly, and companies like facebook and google are having a reckoning. do you believe this will be a prolonged amount of time? nicholas: it is one of the most interest in questions, because our history is so much about optimism and belief these

companies are making the world a better place, so -- which i agree with. i think technology makes our lives richer, but you also have to have critiques. so we have gone into a period of techech utopia, to become optimists, then people become neutral, than pessimists. so i think that we need to have a strong critique of what is happening, but we cannot overdo it into cynicism and hatred, because that will undermine one of the most support things the american economy -- in the american economy. so the big thing happening right now is the -- of the u.s. technology sphere, and chinese technologies fear. there is a risk if they go in different directions, you will end up with a very strange and risky economy. and if you do not want america strangling its tech companies the same time china is building a relationship with their tech companies, you want growth all the way around and connected. emily: you wrote a cover story about facebook with the

controversial image of mark zuckerberg beaten on the cover. nicholas: but smiling. emily: do you think that facebook can recover and regain the glory that it once had? do users care as much about privacy and trust as journalists seem to believe they do? nicholas: those are hard questions. i do nothing facebook will ever go back to where they were pre-2016 election. emily: never? nicholas: who can say never. hit has been a real, real to them, but i also think that the people inside of the facebook are actually trying to fix it. they are trying to figure out whether the algorithm can change in a way that this is not happen again. they are hiring more security to mention the system cannot be hacked again. and i think that the visceral negativity toward facebook has blinded people to what they are

actually trying to do. so i do think that real damage has been done, but also think that they are serious about correcting mistakes. emily: and some of the blowback has come from the founders of companies that facebook bought. whatsapp founders, instagram founders, they have left. and they were here on stage talking about this. nicholas: and some of them -- emily: they were very critical of the facebook in very could go of sort of this is something that they are doing good in the world. so is facebook doing the right thing? nicholas: the question is if they are net positive or net negative for the world is an impossible one to answer. i think the critique has been healthy and there are different levels of critiques from those who have left. , briannders of whatsapp asking people to delete facebook

a few weeks ago. but kevin on stage today, whether he does feel that hostility toward mark zuckerberg, we will learn as time passes. emily: congratulations on a great summit. and thank you for having us. coming up, from cultural anthropologist to a leading voice on artificial intelligence, we speak with genevieve bell on what the future relationship between man and woman and machine looks like. this is bloomberg.

emily: welcome back to a special edition of "bloomberg technology." one of the biggest themes we continue to explore, artificial intelligence. professor genevieve bell is a senior fellow at intel, a cultural anthropologist, and at the center of a.i. development. she talked earlier about how to

manage human computer relationships in the fourth industrial age, and notably how we build a new cyber physical world that is not reproduce existing social inequities. i spoke to her earlier today and asked, how a cultural anthropologist becomes a leading voice on a.i. >> i think one of the things we have gotten obsessed about around a.i. is what is technically possible, and i think we need to pay more attention to what culturally and socially, what is acceptable and works and government. emily: so you are focused on will robots share our values, not will they take our jobs? genevieve: we know that artificial intelligence is going to go to scale, we know it will end up in different places, the question becomes how do we ensure that is something we are comfortable with, something we feel good about, something reflects things we care about. and that means asking caution beyond, what can we do technically, but to ask about what are the values we wanted these objects to enshrine?

how do we regulate them? emily: are these questions being asked as often as they should be? genevieve: i think the answer is no, we could ask them all the time. but i think they are starting to surface, so the more that you and about a.i. and fx, a.i. public policy, that is the beginning of conversations about what world we want to build. and how we want to live in it. emily: let's say that the questions are asked as often as they should be, what is the potential of a.i. to affect our lives in positive ways? genevieve: if you manage things, where are the places a.i. can be the most useful? i always want to ask, not can we do it technically, but should we do it socially. are there places where it makes better sense, not because it is about efficiency, but it either has a way of making decisions that is less that messy, but by the same token, depending on who

programs it, what data they use, sometimes we have the potential of these technologies to reproduce and enshrine really long-standing inequities and bias, and in is not a good thing at all. emily: what are the gravest dangers, if these questions are not asked? genevieve: i think the gravest dangers are waiting the world we live in now and we make it the world in perpetuity moving forward. so all the things about the current world that do not feel right, is what the data reflects. it is a world where women are not paid as much as men, where certain kinds of populations are subject to more violence, where we know certain decisions get made that are unfair. if you take the data about how the world has been, and that is what you build machinery on top of, then we get this world as our total future and i do not know about you, but i would like something different. emily: intel has done a fascinating study on gender differences in perceptions of technology.

and it found that men are more comfortable with emerging technologies, than women. what are the implications of that? genevieve: so we did this study looking at american consumers and what they imagined technology will look like over the next 50 years. in one place, around artificial intelligence particularly, we found there was a strong difference between what males an d females thought. dads were like, more of that and mothers were like, i do not think so. so it is hard to know what that is about, but it points to something. i think it is a place where we have more questions to ask about why is it that some parents were in credibly excited and others were going, no, i don't know about that. emily: and what about data, what does that mean in an industry where we know the vast majority of the tech is being produced by men, and yet attempted to serve both the male and females as consumers? genevieve: it has been a problem for as long as i have been in

silicon valley, the population of people making the technology and decisions about the technology do not reflect the population of people who are impacted by it. so not just by gender, but by age, education, background, and i always think that the more voices you have in the room when you are making solutions and event in the future, the more likely you are to find something that is compelling. so for me the fact that study after study finds men and women have different attitudes toward privacy, data and security means unless we have all those voices in aramco that we would develop things that do not work for everyone. emily: do think facebook and google would exist as is if they were greeted by a more diverse workforce? genevieve: i think that they were tapping into different things. with my technology that they are building, maybe. you may have had a different starting point. emily: what governments and companies need to do, given that a.i. will only become more powerful, yet in equities exist

as they are? genevieve: i know that there is things they are already doing, supplementing existing laws, everything from data security to have it become a regular says coming on in europe about data protection and rights, there are open questions we still need to consider about how we treat data and about how we deal with biases in the data. and you will start to see more companies developing internal policies, different governments around the world developing their own standards too, and we are in the early days but i remain cautious and optimistic about the conversations that are happening. emily: genevieve bell, the vice president and senior fellow at intel. command, microsoft looking to make the workplace inclusive for all, and that includes the more than one billion people in the world with disabilities. we talk to the ceo, next. this is bloomberg.

this is "bloomberg technology." welcome back to a special edition, live from san francisco. this month's national disability employment awareness month and this year's theme is empowering. microsoft is trying to do just that and our people in the world who live with disabilities. programt announced a with rapid development in ai and machine learning. microsoft plans to create technology which can allow all workers to be productive in the

workplace. joining us now, microsoft ceo satya nadella. satya, you have for many years techioned the potential of to be used as an equalizer. you are nominating jenny as the next generation of leaders to watch. why? satya: i came across jenny and met her maybe three or four years before i became ceo. she was already leading the accessibility efforts at microsoft. in her i found someone who not only had the patience to teach me why accessibility mattered, but quite frankly, bring about that sense of energy across the company on what a difference technology can make. think about ai. ai and especially speech and vision and language are making amazing advances. think about that coupled with universal design. help people who have some

disability or the other to fully participate in our society and economy. that is thanks to the leadership company and the entire rallying around her vision. emily: jenny, you've lived with deafness almost your entire life , yet you majored in music and you are the chief accessibility officer of microsoft. what potential do you see for people who have disabilities to use technology as a doorway to opportunity? >> technology can be an incredible enabler. if you look at the demographics, you've got an unemployment rate double for people versus disabilities versus without. technology can be one of those incredible areas that can get people to really achieve whatever they want to achieve, whether in education and employment or enjoyment of life. we are beginning to see that.

some of the technology we've ,een able to put out through ai which allows people with blindness and low vision to have the world described, whether that is an image of you, or handwriting in a holiday card, have that spoken out loud. or for me, captioning. just the simplicity of having really high-quality captioning that is instantaneously provided through ai says a bar that i can use that will never replace the need for me to have an interpreter, but it will mean that i'm more able to be independent in my communications and meetings and relationships with people and friends. there is just amazing opportunities and there's a lot more to be tapped. emily:'s, you have a son who was born with special needs. if other tech leaders have that kind of understanding, how do you think tech might be

different? would google and facebook be different if they'd had the benefit of that kind of understanding? satya: i think all of us have that and that they for people around us, across all companies. this is something that all of us innately have as human beings. the question is, we in the tech industry have an amazing opportunity and responsibility to take these advantages and create opportunities for people who have not had it. one of the things we are trying to make sure is we take ai in other places where perhaps markets don't work that well. for humanitarian actions. where technology can make a fundamental difference. all of us can do this.

we all have experienced that can inspire us. hackathon one week each year, and a lot of the -- nots came out of because i said so or jenny said so, it is the employees of the company rallying around their passion. i think that is going to be true across the industry. emily: as i understand, microsoft has evolved its hiring erectus is to attract people with disabilities -. jenny, this has unlocked a lot of potential talent that you might not have attracted otherwise. how did you do that? what can other companies learn? >> if you really think about creating technology, whether you are in the tech industry or not,

disability is part of that. you have to have people with disabilities in the fabric of your company. not a nice thing to do. it is a business imperative that we have that skill base. how can we bring in these additional areas of expertise? if you look on disability as a talent and change your lens, i personally think it is cool as then you see it in a different way. we've learned a lot through the autism hiring. we've learned that we ourselves were screening people out through some of our interview practices. so we ditched it. we bring people through an academy. we've been able to bring through some amazing talent pools into our company through that program so far. it is still a learning journey. emily: xbox is another one of

the products that was designed with this empathy in mind. is there a business bottom line here? everybody says that you shouldn't trade those things off. satya: i think the business case is self-evident. you think about a billion people in the world with disabilities, building products that address their needs can be a massive advantage. the xbox controller is a great example. not only is it a fantastic design, and it came about because of the ethos that is there in microsoft, where the and the disabled communities play xbox, and we were able to design this with them, but more interestingly, the packaging. you asked what blew my mind. the team didn't stop at building the controller, but took it all the way to recognize that even

the packaging needs to be accessible. jenny, what does inclusive design actually mean? give me an example of a design that is not inclusive that perhaps you changed or realized after the fact that it needed to be different. >> i think you see it all around you. even if you just go back to the door handle. the door handle used to be this round knob that we used to have to turn to open a door. when you started thinking about that through the lens of physical therapists, they said, how about we may get a handle? i think the key thing of inclusive design is to embed people into the process. people with disabilities, deafness, blindness, speech, mental health, whatever it may

be, into the process. ultimately you will create products that work better for everyone. you don't try and retrofit at the end. that was big for us. we missedecomes, oh, it. you have to do it at the beginning. satya: you can do this every day. if you are building a powerpoint presentation, you have all the tools for inclusive presentations. that is an example. maybe someone with visual impairment will need to follow along. how do i create it? emily: speaking of being inclusive, i wouldn't be me if i didn't ask you stories about the day. you have some employees who penned a letter on medium protesting your bid for a pentagon cloud contract. what do you plan to do as a result of that? will it change?

clear that wevery serve our federal customers, whether it is the department of defense with the labor department or veterans affairs, and we will continue to do so. but more importantly, we welcome all views of our employees and have an open dialogue. we have a set of principles that guide what we do and how we engage. that will be the case even going forward. emily: the other big story of the day is saudi arabia. the government has been accused of being tied to the murder of a prominent dissident, and several business leaders have either cut ties or are suspending involvement in various government initiatives. microsoft has some customers in saudi arabia. are you going to reconsider doing business there? satya: what has happened there

is really sad. our heart goes out to the family. it is a real step back. i was hopeful for saudi arabia in terms of the opportunities for the citizens there, the women in saudi arabia and the small businesses. this clearly is a step back. we continue to monitor and see what all this means, but at the same time, it is clearly a step back in what my hope was for a saudi arabia that creates more opportunity. emily: satya nadella, jenny, microsoft chief accessibility officer, thank you so much. coming up, flying cars, e-learning, ai, sebastian wears many hats. he's also the father of the self driving car. he tells us what is next for his latest company, kitty hawk,

next. ♪

emily: welcome back to a special edition of "bloomberg technology " live from san francisco. kitty hawk ceo sebastian thrun says there is a unified thought across all of his ventures, leveraging tech to improve lives. the computer scientist and former professor first broke ground in ai, spearheading googles self driving car initiative. now he's betting on flying cars and e-learning. us now to discuss. i'll give you credit for being the father of self driving cars. you built the first one. now you are working on flying

cars. it seems there's an investment frenzy. companies trying to get into this. what will be kitty hawk's advantage? sebastian: first of all these are not cars. they have no wheels. emily: should we call them something else? sebastian: call them whatever you want, but imagine you could have this. what would you do? if i want to go from san francisco to berkeley, i go in a straight line through the air without any obstacles. emily: what do you call it? -vbastian: we call it e devices. forr electric and v vertical takeoff and landing. emily: what makes kitty hawk's design approach unique? sebastian: we've been on it for about eight years. we've done many thousands of successful flights. developingare still

the technology and working towards practical deployment. emily: when do you see this being as affordable and accessible as an individual car? sebastian: i think eventually it will be cheaper than cars. they are much lighter. the amount of energy -- you could fly from georgia to manhattan. it would be so much less expensive than a car. i see a future -- a distant future, trust me. you are smiling. years ago, it was the same smile. crazy idea. no one is going to take it seriously. the same thing happens now. self driving car is the biggest thing since sliced bread. no one yet takes flight as a serious alternative to urban transportation. i promise that will change. emily: when do regulators and governments catch up?

safety is a concern. sebastian: safety is a huge concern. i would suggest it is going to be safer than cars. are working very closely with new zealand. we have a path to get vehicles deployed. we are working every day in las vegas, where we fly totally legally. emily: larry page is one of your backers. how involved is he? do you talk often? what is his level of -- sebastian: larry, apart from being a close friend, has incredible technology. if we think of the thomas edison of our time, i would say it is larry page. a lot of what we do is based on his insight. the same was true for the self driving car. he brought the self driving car to google. emily: what is an example of

some feedback he's given you? sebastian: we talk about noise, physics, how to go to market. a lot of things that happen in daily life as a ceo. emily: some ask, shouldn't all these minds be working on fixing our bus systems and other broken transport systems that already exist? sebastian: in california we have this thing on the roadmap to build a new high-speed train from san francisco to los angeles. i would say that technology is 20th century technology. bus systems, buses are great spread the cost of a drive over many passengers. the moment you enter a driverless car era, there is no benefit to putting many people in the same the occult. you have the time coordination

problem which doesn't exist if every person gets his own vehicle. emily: googles self driving car say theunds like they self driving car technology will be ready for prime time next year. sebastian: i'm super excited. i'm impatient. when i ran the google self-driving car team, i thought we were close. i hope you are going to see the technology soon. we lose over 30,000 people in traffic accidents every year. i can't wait. emily: could we still feel like we are this close, but really be so far? there's concern about ai having hit a wall. sebastian: i don't think ai has hit a wall. i'm optimistic. cars, you and i make a mistake, learn from it, but no one else learns. in self driving cars, all the

other cars, including all the unborn future self driving cars, -- [indiscernible] emily: alphabet is facing a of privacy trust concerns. do you think they will figure that out? sebastian: i would say we in the tech industry, we care about people. we see tech as a tool. my company teaches people around the world. we teach people how to code. that is our way to give back. we really care deeply. we put our time and effort into the technology. emily: sebastian thrun, kitty hawk ceo, i could continue to debate this with you for hours, but thank you. good to see you. we are staying in the skies.

earth's resources are finite and jeff bezos thinks humans may need a plan b. how the rocket company is working on sending millions, maybe even trillions to live in space, next. ♪

emily: welcome back to a special edition of "bloomberg technology " live in san francisco. marking the magazine's anniversary, an in-depth look at one of the most disruptive companies, blue origin. blue origin plans on sending passengers on joyrides to . and one day possibly to a life outside earth. here to tell us more, stephen, who wrote the cover story and the second cover story ever for wired 25 years ago. you've covered a lot of tech. what strikes you as most surprising about jeff bezos and blue origin? >> what is surprising to me is how much he's tagging this

company that he's funding now for a vision which won't come to fruition until after he's dead and we are all dead. he's spending money to make sure in his mind that humanity has a future, and he believes our future is off this planet. emily: you interviewed him on stage. he gave a convincing argument as to why somebody would get on one of these shuttles. would you do it? >> i want to see it go up a few times. make sure it is interesting. , ibe if my kids were little wouldn't do it, but i have a grown-up son. why not? emily: he was fairly direct in his criticisms of reportedly google, talking about amazon's work with the pentagon, and also facebook, talking about how he believes social media isn't really good for us, and is

exacerbating identity politics. what is your take on that? said, and hetually talked also in addressing why amazon is enthusiastically bidding for defense contracts. he said, i'm the ceo. i get to decide what to do. that is an interesting contrast to what is happening with google and other companies, where the employees are pressuring the company to take a certain course. whether it is not bidding for defense contracts or changing their policies in general. he was basically saying, it is my company. i have my values. emily: satya nadella told us something similar. is there something to be skeptical of billionaires deciding what the space race looks like? >> that is something i asked him

directly. what he was saying is this particular mission that blue origin has is something that not a lot of people are pursuing. if you are not going to do something people disagree with, maybe you shouldn't be doing it. money, i'mhave the going to put it to something no one else is doing. this doesn't compare to the united states budget, but the united states isn't investing in creating infrastructure so a trillion people will live in space. emily: who do you put your money on, elon musk or jeff bezos? isthe motto of blue origin one step at a time ferociously. emily: stephen leavy, thank you so much. great to have you here. great piece in wired magazine. that does it for this special edition of "bloomberg technology " live in san francisco.

tomorrow, catch full coverage of tech earnings. i'm emily chang. this is bloomberg. ♪

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>> welcome to bloomberg australia. world headquarters in new york. >> and i'm in hong kong. counting down to asian opens. >> the top stories we're overing in the next hour, technology pulling stocks lower the dollar reached a two-week lengthening list of concerns. bank of america is among the