this is how we inspire hope. this is how we heal. cancer treatment centers of america. appointments available now. jonathan: from new york city, i am jonathan ferro. bloomberg "real yield" starts right now. ♪ jonathan: coming up, payrolls friday, another sign the u.s. labor market remains resilient. china providing extra support for the economy, giving investor sentiment another boost, and chairman powell eating the final word ahead of the says next meeting. we begin with the big issue, a mixed payrolls. >> a goldilocks number. >> pretty good in the details. >> a slowing economy.

>> still well above what you would expect at this late cycle. >> fears about a u.s. recession are not showing in this report. >> very hard to get a recession in the next 12 months. >> higher wages. >> the labor market is holding in. >> we were worried about manufacturing and we saw the numbers are hanging fine. >> the jury is out in the manufacturing sector. budding there are some signs of some weakness in the employment sector at the fringes. >> the question is where it goes from here. jonathan: joining me around the table, my guest. -- guests. if the payroll report doesn't change what you sour carless of what you thought going into the payrolls report, not a game changer, is it? >> is basically confirming status quote for the fed. they're on track to cut a five basis points at the september meeting. the real question for me this

morning, if it turns out to beweak after the manufacturing data earlier this week, will the market press? there is no fear of that. the pace of job creation is declining. year00 jobs per month last and now it's more like 160 per month. jonathan: we have to understand if that's a structural shift, it's natural, with had 200,000 per month for years, it has to come down to 100 or 150 come or is it a deceleration in the trend will get away from them? greg: it is the concept of terminal velocity. things are slowing down. i think it's expected to slow down. the question is how it will form going forward? that's the open question. the trend is what matters and you're seeing slowing, but what is important to watch is what's happening on

the corporate side with margins and whether you will see companies defend margins by laying off people or slowing down hiring. jonathan: many people came into the jobs report looking at the hours. average weekly hours. trying to see, if things start to slow down, corporate will not lay people off first, they will pull back on hours. hours ticked back up. as at encouraging to you? the wage increase is the single biggest thing. i do agree with the point that it is kind of a meh report. the wage at tech -- uptick is a good thing. jonathan: trying to work out whether the treasuries are a head fake or if we are seeing an inflection point where the treasury yields are starting to break a sustainably. greg: i don't think so. it's a massive move lower in one direction. you have one day with a violent move for sure but it doesn't change the overall trend in my mind, and so i find it somewhat humorous that all of the bears

are declaring victory after one day of 10 basis points. i think today is instructive in that we've had a mixed report, the data is clearly mixed and treasuries kind of stabilized. a bond: if you are investor, you have to ask yourself, how low can yields go? if you look at bond yields at -80 basis points and the yield at 145, you look at the fundamentals in the economy, it should be trading close to 2%. there is some level of uncertainty premium the bond market is taken out. get 60, 70 basis points away from fair value, you have to question if it makes any sense. mike: the answer new premium is simple, his name is donald trump. if you look at where the 10 year treasury closed after the fed ease, 201. jonathan: what does it tell you

that we get a rate cut from the federal reserve and yields of the long and kept going lower? a lot of people watching this program believe that the fate of the yield curve and the shape of it can be shaped to some degree by the federal reserve the more aggressive at the front end. i'm trying to work out if that is still true. ieg: i disagree with that and disagree with mike to a certain degree. i think it's a global bond market and we are tracing what is happening in bunds and elsewhere. at think as long as the u.s. rate market continues to be the best yield around, money will continue to flow, and i think rates will continue to move lower, and if the fed cuts rates, i think that gives the long and more capacity to move lower, not a steepener. mike: interesting, we think there are three basic factors driving yield -- trade, brexit, hong kong. yes, they are global. but is it honestly and

treasuries? i don't think so. these three things. we think the markets will be a mess the next couple of months. once you clear a couple of them out, you will see yields take up. -- tick up. jonathan: to the point greg is making, the fed cuts rates in the whole heard -- curve comes in. mike: as long as you have a quality mentality, people will look around and say i need risk off, i don't want to buy bunds at -60, so i will buy treasuries, but does it mean they offer value? not really. but do you want to hold this position for a month or the next 6-12 months? we think it's the former. subadra: going back to the bond curve, bunds are extraordinarily priced. and for the ecb to do a decent aspackage, maybe as much

$750 billion -- 750 two one trillion are we hoping it goes to 120? or is there the risk that the ecb delivers and there's a potential for the curve to steepen? that's a market move with on thursday and that ultimately is my fear, that i do want to deliver and there is the potential impact that the b und curve will steepen. when we: 10 years ago first started to see qe in a bigger way following the financial crisis, qe and the objective was to get inflation and growth expectations up, to shake you out of the 10 year and the 30 year. in fact what you see is yields should be going up when you restart qe. has that changed? subadra: it has. happenedample is what when draghi spoke and said, we will do all it takes.

the five-year break even in europe went up 10 basis points. two weeks later it was back down. inflation breakevens in europe have stayed between 130-140. the market is not actively pricing in the impact of easing coming from europe feeding into higher inflation expectations. i think it's approved statement the qe doesn't work. the idea is to increase inflation and increase growth through consumer spending through indirect channels and so forth. it hasn't worked. the reason the markets are pushing back on the notion of qa -- qe moving up yields is the market knows qe is not effective. you,han: so the view fear you would question the efficacy of central bank monetary policy. the more cut to get, the more stimulus to get. you won't unlock high growth expectations and you won't unlock higher data. the markets right now, you would

bonds?ng into government greg: nothing happens in a straight line. -- a 10asis point moves basis point move on that. we think the general trend is for lower yields. it might not happen the next month or three months but i think over the next cycle you will see yields lower. just think about all of the things thrown into the system globally to get growth up. this is all you've got? i don't see capacity for yields to move up in a meaningful way. i think when there is a greg peters biography, it will be raging bull 2. but i agree that central banks are about done. it's not a monetary policy question. maybe in the u.s.. in europe, could they spend more money? yes, in theory. will they?

probably not. i expect you have this dire situation in europe as far as stimulus. jonathan: with europe, were not questioning the efficacy of policy, we question whether his counterproductive. it's a different conversation with europe. the ecb next week, there are calls from people not doing qa -- qe, when the most controversial thing they could do next week is cutting into deeper negative territory. your thoughts on that, deeper into negative territory in europe right now. how much will it help? mike: zero. i'm sure it will launch phd thesis but it won't work. crazy idea. jonathan: i think where an agreement. coming up, the auction block. what a week for issuance it has been. bondsillion in corporate coming to market. a record-breaking week in u.s. investment grade issuance. that conversation is coming up next.

this is bloomberg "real yield." ♪

♪ i'm jonathan ferro, this is bloomberg "real yield." i want to head over to europe for the auction block am a we start with france according its biggest ever debt sale rating. the average yield on all four tranches fell to record lows. in corporate scum of berkshire haploid -- berkshire hathaway in the biggest from a non-japanese dealer. finally, apple joining a flood of investment great -- great issuance. the longest portion of the

five-part deal with a 30 year security. yielding just over one percentage point above treasury. guests.are my i would love your insight into the huge week we have just had for credit issuance and your thoughts on what motivates the move beyond where yields are currently. mike: welcome back, right? normally we wade into the pool and this is straight in. august was extremely slow. a lot of that is catch-up. then there was a window of opportunity. the core market has benefited from the moving treasuries, which was somewhat interrelated, the stronger numbers we saw in terms of tweets and whatnot. the market really took advantage of that. i think it's important to note that europe -- year-over-year, we are still negative off a very high level in terms of issuance. the trend is slightly lower but this has been an eye-opening experience. it tells you that companies

still want to borrow -- not invest, but borrow at these low levels. jonathan: what is behind the move is not just price, turning out debt. not about investing in the business, that's what you're saying? greg: that's right. on a net basis you are seeing very little change. companies are turning out there debt, locking in -- turning out their debt and locking in low yield. the investment grade market is getting longer, which matters, it means there is more risk. that has been tossed aside this week for a feeding frenzy. jonathan: credit risk versus duration risk. about onened are you more than the other? greg: more concerned about credit risk. if you think about an impending recession, whatever your personal probability is, duration will protect you, all else being issue -- all else

being equal. credit will not. you're looking at leverage at an extremely high level. investors have been pulled in for the extra yield. i worry about credit much more than duration. mike: let's to a compromise, 3-6 months duration risk. the reason why is if you get a shift in global factors, it takes the whole complex with it. i take the point, high yield is a different story, but for ig, that is a big risk. jonathan: did you see the move earlier this week? dozen that highlight concerns near-term people have? i'm a little uncomfortable with massive swings like we saw earlier this week. duration,thing about when you're out to curve, it is volatile. so it is a wake-up call but investors are forced into it because are not a lot of options. curve that weate

are talking about, it highlights that investors don't have a lot of alternatives. you're seeing with moves not only in treasuries but credit as well. subadra: it's the global guilt grab, right? this is what central bankers want to come up they want you to go into the spectrum and take on more risk, it's become more duration risk as well as credit risk. if you look at the next year or so, we spoke earlier about corporate profit margins compression, that's to agree how a recession plays out. if we go into a recession by the middle of next year, which is our expectation, there is the potential for this to start widening out. given the amount of leverage in the system, it might turn ugly quickly. jonathan: in a short-term, do you like high-yield? why? greg: i do. it is all relative. has beenyield borrower different the cycle than previous cycles. all of the risk in leveraged

finance has been pushing into the low -- loan market. i dislike loans, but high-yield bonds i do like. that still is the case. the high-yield market looks much better today than it has in previous points of the cycle. i think it is ok. i feel more comfortable owning high-yield that i do investment grade bonds. jonathan: you simeon note earlier this week i want to bring out a line for our viewers. the goal of identifying the most attractive relative value is subverted by jurisdictional or self-imposed rules, regulations and constraints. how important is that line right now and how important is it to be nimble? greg: that's absolutely what drives the fixed income market. the fixed income market is so fragmented. you have non-augmented pockets of capital all over that don't really relate to each other. if you are an investor they can go across, and we think we are, there are real opportunities. but there are some a disco

locations -- dislocations. jonathan: where others right now? greg: the long end of the curve. there seeing it notably on pension side, where the pension community is forced to buy more duration as duration rallies. that is something that is one aspect. jonathan: how do you take advantage of it? greg: i'm more seeing it on the credit side than the duration side. seams. try to manage the if you're indifferent to the various constraints, you can take advantage from an infanta -- an investor standpoint. subadra: the pension funds have gone down because of the rally, the long end, the flattening of the curve. this is a global problem. it's a big problem especially for pension funds overseas, where they just don't have as many assets that they can source to match liabilities because

yields are so extraordinarily low. thinkhat perspective, i the rally in the long end will be a huge problem. jonathan: you can be sticking with me. andng up, the final spread the week ahead featuring an ecb rate decision and mario draghi preparing for his the project in october. that is next. this is bloomberg "real yield." ♪

♪ jonathan: i'm jonathan ferro, this is bloomberg "real yield," and it's time for the final spread. the next week, a lot of data out of china. tuesday, the bank of england director mark carney speaking in new york. wednesday, and cpi on thursday. plus, we hear from president mario draghi following an ecb rate decision. on friday, more u.s. data with the august retail sales report in focus. with me for final thoughts are

my guests. as we record this program, chairman tell is including his remarks in zurich. nothing really new here. he declined to go beyond the following quote him act as appropriate to sustain the expansion. what are you looking from the federal reserve in the next couple of weeks? subadra: 25 basis points rate cut i think is all the market is pricing in and what we expect. for the most part, i would say that he is probably going to is anue to say this midcycle adjustment, which is somewhat at odds with what the market is pricing in, which is for cuts between now and the middle of next year. i would be looking to see how they square the circle on market pricing, if or at the beginning of a rate cut cycle, or continuing to characterize this is a midcycle adjustment. end ofn: are we at the

the cycle? greg: no, but the market continues to push the fed. there's all this rhetoric around from tweeting but really the markets are pushing the fed. that's what a worry about, each meeting is met with more priced in cuts. at some point, it doesn't wash away. i think the second half of this year and into next year is about said volatility -- fed volatility. jonathan: you think at some point they have to push back? at the moment people would argue they are a must hijack by the counterfactual. if they don't move, conditions tighten and if they do move, nothing happens. greg: it's all very confusing and circular and i agree. they have to push back at some point. the fact and not pushing back gives the market confidence they are right in the continue to push. there's a circular reference problem there as well. circularity but we have fed funds price at 1% at the end

of next year, gimme a break. that's a crisis level. jonathan: what is the circuit breaker for that? on thise up so me times program and others, what is the circuit breaker to break the circular argument? mike: how will talks tough, but will he do it? that's the circuit breaker. jonathan: final comments. subadra: you need uncertainty in the markets to go away, you need certainty on the trade front and business investment and spending. i would argue a lot of what we've seen in the last 68 months is because of tweets and uncertainty. once we get past that, you could see a pop. we are tracking 2.5% despite tariffs for growth. this might be point 3% declining growth because of tariffs, but doing ok. jonathan: we have the rapidfire round, trying to do that. looking ahead to the ecb next

week, have we seen the low in the german ten-year yield? have we already seen it yes or no? mike: yes. greg: no. subadra: yes. jonathan: does the ecb restart qe next week? greg: no. mike: yes. subadra: yes. jonathan: do we get tearing with a rate cut next week? subadra: yes. mike: no. greg: no. jonathan: that's the important one next week. thank you very much. does it from new york city. we will see you same time and same place. this was bloomberg "real yield." ♪ we call it the mother standard of care.

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