tv Bloomberg Technology Bloomberg November 11, 2019 5:00pm-6:00pm EST
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and, allegations of sexism. steve wozniak among those complaining of gender bias for the new apple credit card and goldman sachs. first, to our top story. wework ceo search is said to include t-mobile ceo john legere . ties toere has softbank. this comes at the same time as legere is pushing for a merger with sprint, also with softbank. as we reported this morning, it seems like he is one of several names up for consideration for a ceo search wework. is something that has kind of been percolating. again, this may be a sign of
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softbank pulling the strings. they have strong ties over john legere. twist, ties with the executive chairman who is a former sprint leader and someone who in the past has sparred publicly at times with john legere over telecom industry beefs they had. theof them even called other a conman on twitter. kurt: what has been going on at wework on the executive front? ellen: it has been a long six weeks. ,september, co-ceo's they come onto take the reins. pretty quickly, softbank chairman.he executive
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out alleen sending staff emails, saying, if you have any concerns or questions, feel free to email me. he seems very forward. at the same time, it seems the company is going forward with a multipronged search for ceo. one of them could be john legere but they want to keep open the possibility for other names. how important do you think it is to get a ceo in their during this transition period? this is someone who will have his or her first reputation with employees tied to transition stuff. ellen: they should probably pick one person and stick with it. a bit of whiplash going on.
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down, it is steps that they will be running the show, then there is a new person coming in. i'm sure they are reading the news today about, how can we continue to get stability, doing our jobs and building this business? kurt: do you have a sense to how quickly we could get answers. ellen: no. , theseys with wework plans are up for changing. i'm sure they want to figure out the best past that best path forward to keep the company alive. kurt: there is a lot going on. set the ceo search assigned. what else are you paying attention to? ellen: their goal, which they stated publicly, is profitability. they are thinking, how do we
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convince people that this is a business worth pursuing? softbankone from talked about how the core business is very valuable. this is a product people want to pay for. the company, its main priority that try and cut expenses may come in the form of layoffs. to ing expenses, trying right-size the business, which means getting rid of a lot of ancillary lines they have and focus on making money. kurt: making money is good for businesses, i am told. hewitt, thanklen you for jack -- ala -- ellen huet, thank you for joining us. we will talk to the apple cofounder steve wozniak, next,
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kurt: there is plenty of anxiety on social media, especially for people who feel the pressure of competing with other users. instagram is now looking to reduce that feeling on the photo sharing platform and the facebook-owned companies has the key is to remove the like counts on posts. they are doing it in countries like canada, japan, and brazil.
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we spoke to the head of instagram, adam mosseri. >> we are hoping to depressurized instagram a little bit. we are really focused on young people, well-being. likeink if we can make counts private, it may allow people to focus for little bit on what they care about. >> the idea being, if i can't see how many likes your photo gets, that might decrease my pressure around sharing myself? be able to see how many likes your own photo gets. the idea is to reduce anxiety and social comparison, specifically with an eye towards young people. kurt: what are you seeing?
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adam: we are seeing different things in different countries. we want to understand how it changes how people use instagram but more importantly, how it changes how people feel. measuring how people feel is tricky. that is why the test has been running for so long and that is why it will take some time. >> you must feel that people are feeling better about instagram as a result of this. you wouldn't be rolling it out in other markets if not. adam: we are seeing encouraging data, which is why we are rolling it out further. we will see how it does in the u.s. kurt: are there other things that you guys are thinking about on the same front, either around metrics, the way people share, that might change the feelings people have? adam: when you think about well-being and safety and
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integrity more broadly, i think there are three areas. acute issues, things like hate speech i'm a try and address them. the second is that we are trying to take issues we can lead on. -- it affectsto young people and harms them. we also think it is important to rethink some of the fundamentals about how instagram works. the combination of things, i hope, will change how people feel about what we do. none of this -- there is no one state -- no one silver bullet. seri -- thats adam was adam mossari, the head of instagram. i want to welcome in jim. what did you think? : i would like to know where they were for the last five
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years. we have been complaining to the folks at instagram and facebook for years about the comparison culture that kids are growing up in. instagram is one of the major culprits, if not the most important culprit. the truth is, this is an enormous challenge for kids and teens today. instagram buried their heads in the sand on this issue. they should get rid of likes altogether. kurt: one thing that i wasn't super happy with the answer i got was how is this changing user behavior. do you have a sense of what this does to the platform? jim: it is interesting because what they want is to keep you there so they can make money via advertising. on the mental health of kids, anxiety among kids and teens who
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spend a lot of time on social media. they are very late to the party but at least they are doing something. kurt: the fact they are rolling it out in such big markets, brazil and the united states, do you get the sense that this could hurt facebook's business in any way? jim: no matter how much criticism facebook gets and how much their brand has been tarnished -- and people don't always associate instagram with facebook but they should -- their business has always been strong. from a democracy standpoint or, in this case, a kids in family standpoint, they are causing a lot of harm. i would like to see adam be bolder, remove the likes, and look at the behavior of people on the platform. kurt: should we take anything from the fact that this is instagram doing this, not facebook? why are we not seeing this on the bigger facebook platform? jim: because they are making so
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much money on facebook this way. it is a designed method to manipulate you and keep users there. they know that. the big thing here is the crisis of conscience at facebook, instagram, and in the broader tech industry. how should they be held responsible? takeare so late to try to these issues on. you look at what is going on in the political advertising realm. these guys should be under serious scrutiny and accountability. all of the viewing public. tom, isur brother, obviously running for president. i saw that he was the second-highest spender on facebook ads behind donald trump. the do you think about policy they have, not fact checking politicians?
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jim: i think it is a big problem and i think it is hypocritical. if that means that my brother or even our host, mike bloomberg, does not advertise on facebook, that is ok. first of all, the first lies on the air and we will try to moderate some of them but basically we will pretty much let anything go. if it means that my brother would have to stop advertising on facebook, too bad. if it means that might bloomberg cannot take out ads on facebook, too bad. our democracy is more important. it is a very disappointing policy, particularly in light of twitter which has not particularly been the best corporate citizen in the world. they should stop it now. do you think these changes
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by facebook, does that set standards in the industry? is it at the point where whatever facebook does sets the bar? jim: i don't think so. if you speak to other corporate executives in the tech industry like i do, they are not big fans of facebook. they are happy to have facebook criticized so their behavior is not criticized. i don't think facebook sets the bar for anybody now. inir brand is so much lower the public perception today. because of the challenges with democracy, kids and teens that we were describing. the problem is, they are the biggest platform when it comes to elections and also issues like likes. when they are not held responsible and they do not change their behavior, we all lose at -- lose as a society. kurt: jim stier of common sense
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kurt: another top story we are following. bloomberg has learned that a wall street regulator is looking into goldman sachs credit card practices after an entrepreneur alleged apple card algorithms discriminated against his wife. the card is a joint venture between apple and goldman. they said it is possible for two family members to make -- to receive significantly different credit decisions. explain what is happening here and what we learned over the weekend. >> this all started a few days ago when david hanson, a tech entrepreneur, started complaining online about how he got a much higher credit limit than his wife even though she has a better credit score, they share joint accounts, effectively she has the same
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spending power, yet his credit limit was 20 times higher. to add insult to injury, you had apple cofounder steve wozniak saying, i faced the same issue. before you know it, it got wall street regulators saying, we want to look into the credit assessment models to see what goes into the decision-making process to ensure that there is not any bias even if unintentional. kurt: who exactly is being investigated and by whom? apple issue, goldman sachs issue? apple card.n but the truth is, it is goldman sachs, a top wall street bank comer sponsor for the banking portions. , the sponsor for the banking services.
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the regulator overseas goldman. since it is goldman who is setting it up, goldman knew as the proprietary system, they said, we want to look into this black box and see what goes into the decision-making process just to make sure you are not reinforcing problems we've had with the credit assessment system for decades, frankly. kurt: thank you very much. as we mentioned earlier, this investigation was launched in response to a series of tweets by tech entrepreneur david hansen. apple those tweets said offers a credit card that bases assessments on a black box algorithm that six different have nooss apple and gs visibility into. it is just the algorithm. david joins us now from los angeles. thatou explain the process led you to these tweets from late last week?
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david: i was excited about the fact that apple was going to launch a new credit card. my wife was excited for the card. my application went through just fine and i got a reasonable credit limit assigned to me. my wife showed up shortly thereafter with the same financial information i used. the same household income, the same credit history. we have been married for eight years. we have the same credit cards, lines of credit. she ends up with a credit limit that is unusually low, 20 times less then what mine was. we thought at first this was a mistake. and we goontact apple through a series of reps, managers, escalations, and everyone keeps telling us, it is the algorithm.
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they don't know why it arrives at the verdicts it does. all they could tell us was to check back in six months. that struck both of us as patently unfair. we should get the same treatment. unfortunately, what happens is that apple just washes their hands, they hand it to goldman sachs, essentially a subcontractor. no one signs up because it is issued by goldman sachs. they sign-up because it is apple. , we took them at their word. this gets handed over to goldman sachs, we go around in circles, and the best they can come up with is essentially to say that the assessment is individual. left just screaming at a black box, trying to appeal to humans inside of both of those
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organizations. the algorithm is apparently completely out of control and it just spits out verdicts that we are supposed to take at face value. that is not right. we should have insight into the algorithm, be able to correct any errors, and then be able to review and compare the whole thing. otherwise, how would we know if sexist?d is actually if they say, it is the algorithm, we don't know what the inputs are, but trust us that this is a fair and impartial process. trust what? thehas goldman sachs and industry in general earned any trust from consumers to take them at their word? they haven't. kurt: have you heard from the companies' higher ups, either at apple or goldman sachs?
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has the fact that apple cofounder steve wozniak has gotten involved, has that gotten a response for you? david: in part. two apple managers called my wife. they basically just matched her credit limit to mind, not because they thought that the algorithm was wrong, but because they smelled a pr issue. they just said, now that this is a pr problem, here you go, your wife can have a 20x credit limit. that completely undermines the defense they have that this is an individual process. it was managers who called my wife, managers who told her from apple that she would be bumped on her limit. on sunday, after the new york
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regulator has gotten involved, we got a lawyerly letter from golden -- from goldman sachs that was clearly written not to my wife mahut was addressed at, but to the new york -- my wife, to whom it was addressed at, but to the new york regulators. this was them trying to cover up for regulators rather than answer the real questions. this is a black box algorithm. maybe now they regulators are able to peek under the covers. why shouldn't all consumers be able to peek under the covers? it is like there is a secret court secret evidence and you are being judged in this court on basically your worth. to be judged in that court and to find out, you are not worth one 20th of what your husband is, it is deeply offensive. ,urt: david heinemeier hansson
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this is bloomberg technology. i'm kurt wagner. now, we joined sherry on in new york and haidi stroud-watts in city to bring you the latest global tech news. let's take a look at the top global tech stories of the day. haidi? haidi: investor confidence in europe sharing market is not slowing down. sweden's technology announced it closed $85 million in new funding. this follows in october funding round of $60 million. tencent is entering the indian insurance market. the chinese giant bought a 10%
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stake in indian online insurance aggregator policy bazaar. the latest and the backing of the indian startup. it also invests in a ride-hailer and food delivery platform. the deal was signed earlier this week. and, tesla is showing off its first batch of chinese made cars. the model 3's were built in the shanghai gige factory which broke ground in january. it is working with local authorities to maintain manufacturing certification by year end. those of the top global tech stories we are watching. shery: another single day record for alibaba. the chinese tech giant racked up billions of dollars in sales for the 24 hour marathon that is seen as a gauge for chinese consumer sentiment. an estimated half a billion shoppers bought something. joining us to discuss, jeff greenfield, cofounder of c3 metrics. great you happy with us. so, great record sales for
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alibaba, yet investors don't seem too impressed. the stock actually fell. baird saying deceleration from 2018 levels. jeff: it is definitely a deceleration compared, but the key is if you look at the growth since they started pushing on singles' day, it is incredible. we should not be too impressed with the dollars. the big story here is the data. how they are able to do it. when you look on comparison, when you look at the number of people alibaba shoppers have and you compare it to u.s. population, prime day and black friday is actually not that far behind. the numbers are much huger, but there are so many more people. the big story is the data and what happens to the data for retailers in the u.s. kurt: jeff, i'm curious when you talk about that data, give us a sense of why that is so valuable to alibaba, especially in the
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growing field of e-commerce players. what does that give us that someone like amazon might not get through prime day or do they? jeff: they do get that through prime day but data has an impact for advertisers. there's a lot of advertisers in the u.s. and a lot of big companies that traditionally do not have access to that data. for example, cpg companies. somebody like a cleaner or soap company do not have access to that data. advertisers are finally waking up. you are seeing a lot of advertisers are jumping on board and realizing in order to get that data, the need to have a relationship with the consumer. if you look at tide for example, they started acquiring cleaners around the country so they can have that one to one relationship. for a lot of people in this country, their local cleaner is now called tide cleaner. the other side of that data, consumers today want a curated experience. they don't want to walk into a
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mall and have everything that is for sale there. that is why we have seen companies start to explode like crazy. this idea that you could get exactly what fits you, exactly what you need, what is made for you to come to your home every month. that is what consumers today want. that is where retailers seem to kind of miss the message. if you walk into a mall today, you are walking into a graveyard of brands that are not caught up and not taking advantage and looking forward with business intelligence. shery: when it comes to alibaba, there are always questions about what the single day sales means for the bottom line. there has been accounting scrutiny over alibaba in the u.s. so, what do we know about how much this actually contributes to their business? jeff: great question because at the end of the day, in order to get that many consumers to purchase that large number of goods, there's a lot of deep discounting that goes on. across the world, consumers also
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want one thing. they want a huge bargain. that is why sales are so big. that is a big question we are not going to find out today in terms of what is going to impact their bottom line. believe me, there's a lot of discounting that went on on. kurt: jeff, you talked a lot about making sure this experience for consumers is moving towards this idea of being personalized. how do you align that with what we are seeing from social platforms like instagram or pinterest that is trying to be both spontaneous and also personalized at the same time? jeff: social platforms are a whole different aspect in terms of data. the big problem these platforms have is they can personalize as much as they want, but they are not actually selling anything. they are missing that link between commerce. think about it in terms of facebook. the only thing they are selling are ads. they are really just selling your information. that is facebook, instagram. google themselves as well are also not selling anything at all. all they are selling is your information.
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they are missing that link that amazon has. amazing situation because not only do they have that data, not only are they excelling ads, they have goods they can sell as well. it would not surprise me when you start to look at facebook and google, with the amount of cash they have, that they would be looking to make some sort of acquisition for some sort of shopping platform. they need to have a direct connection to commerce in order to really take full advantage of all the data they actually have. shery: how are we expecting the single day performance to help when it comes to that hong kong billion that$15 can come any day now for alibaba? jeff: i think investors should be somewhat impressed with those numbers. they probably aren't that impressed if the growth was not as high as the years before. i think what is going to be interesting more than what happens with alibaba that is how does this impressive number with singles' day, what does this do for the economy in the u.s. and
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what is going to happen in q4 as we move towards the shopping season here? are we going to see about a 25% jump? we should. or if we don't see as much of a jump, what that tells us is alibaba is really taking better advantage of their data than the retailers in the u.s. are. shery: all about that data and analytics. jeff: yes. shery: thank you so much for that. that was jeff greenfield joining us of c3 metrics. plenty more ahead. this is bloomberg. ♪
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days by a tech entrepreneur and steve wozniak complaining about the unequal treatment of their wives ignited a firestorm that has engulfed the two giants of silicon valley and wall street. steve joins us now from san jose, california. thank you for being here. can you walk me through what happened over the weekend? steve: i am very thankful what david was on saying. i did not really go out and try to promote anything. i don't do that, promote issues. i saw a post, a tweet by david about he and his wife having different limits. my wife and i can counter that months ago and found out through phone calls on the number that is on your apple card and apple wallet, i could not get anyone to listen. they would say maybe in three to six months, that sort of thing. i posted it to be a little side feature of the article. and, it became -- i don't know. i didn't expect all these results. funny thing is goldman sachs has been phoning us and doing some incredible things in a very short time.
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it is their first credit card and that is something hard to do for the first time. i have been there. not to have everything in place support was for some time is understandable, but they are going out of the way just like applewood. there were a lot of article saying it was alleging gender bias as the only possible explanation. my wife thought that at first. i didn't. i never use those words because i know that apple itself is the least biased of all the companies, the least discriminatory. we are the only big company in the u.s. that guarantees equal pay for equal work by gender. that was out of the thing. it was goldman sachs -- they have listened. maybe because i got involved. i don't like to get special privilege because of my past. they got involved and they fought it out and they will make the changes very soon that will allow you to get to a human. i don't believe looking into the algorithm is a solution. i don't believe that changing
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the algorithm is the solution. i think somehow being able to get individual attention in cases the algorithm misses. kurt: you did mention part of the problem is when you are trying to get someone on customer support for a company this size, it can be really hard. you said it is too big. were you talking about goldman sachs, apple or a little bit of both? steve: i am talking about all the big companies. apple is actually very good because you've got personal support, human to human support in the stores with the employees, the apple geniuses. apple does a really good job of making good support available. i decided a long time ago that having a good product is not as valuable as having good support for whatever you get. kurt: obviously, when you choose to weigh in on something like this especially apple related, it will probably get a lot of attention. you said you were surprised by how much attention those tweets got. you also mentioned the response
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he got from goldman sachs. did you hear from apple as well? steve: i don't think we heard from apple directly. they were contacting my wife who contacted them months ago and called the phone number. i guess they had her number to call. they said they are going to have a standard number by the end of the week. now they are telling us by tomorrow. it will actually go through to support people. the idea is to get to humans. you cannot expect instant solutions because there might be too much demand and not enough supply for a while. they are talking exactly right. the way apple would handle something like this. we are going to support the customers. i believe in the customer getting respect over the company having power, and because they have authority they can be right when they are really wrong. kurt: you mentioned this is not necessarily just in algorithm issue, that there might be other solutions. ts starts with the
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algorithm. do you think this is reflective of the challenges brought her the tech industry right now? steve: a lot of things algorithms cannot handle that are different from a human. the dumbest human in the world could easily look at and come up with solutions including a lot of self-driving issues. kurt: what are the other areas right now where you feel like a.i. and these algorithms are really a problem, at least in terms of starting some of these issues? steve: everywhere we have learned we can apply computers -- we call it a.i. -- we apply computers to avoid humans having to be hired and paid to do the job of supporting people. that is what the gig economies are doing. hundreds of messages and calls a day for some door dasher. to get my phone number, emails, texts, no way to get to the company to exley my problem. i don't need another account
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with my name going on more lists. you cannot get through the to the humans when you need to and when a human would solve it. kurt: it does feel ironic that a lot of these big tech problems are kind of requiring human solutions, right? do you think the tech companies, apple included, are doing enough to grow those kind of customer service workforces? what do they need to do to get up to the standard you expect from them? steve: i have always seen apple as one of the best of all the companies i deal with. even for normal, the average joes, the normal person. i don't get products from apple free. i stand in line like everyone else. i order them online early. i just want to be in a real privileged category. if somebody offers me something, i will be polite and take it, but i don't want to use my privilege like i am more important than any other people. i don't act like that in my life. if you study me, i am very different in that way.
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kurt: what about regulations? can some of this be solved by the government stepping in and telling these big tech companies, if you are going to use a.i. to solve some problems, we are going to put new rules or guardrails around that? steve: it goes back to what i was saying -- i always favored the consumer over the producer, the big companies, the one that have power and wealth. i want the consumer to be respected. they are not going to be taking care of by the companies making their own decisions. the companies work for themselves. only government can step in to handle the masses. anything from road construction on. it is not going to happen at the private company level. we will take care of the problems ourselves. no, i don't buy that. kurt: one of the things that stood out for me was you are still a current apple employee and i did not realize that. i'm curious, what are you doing at apple these days? steve: nothing officially. i get a small paycheck. i am the only person who has
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gotten a paycheck every week since we started the company. $50 a week in the bank or whatever. kurt: that sounds like a nice gig. let me know when you figure out how i can sign up for one of those. it sounds like you are not then working on the new a.r. glasses. augmented reality glasses they be coming up in the next few years from apple. i'm curious what you think about the a.r. space more broadly. is this going to be the new version of the phone wars we have been experiencing for the past couple of decades? steve: as for working at apple and stuff like that, i'm so outgoing and honest, it is hard to be working on projects inside. you have to get a lot of that up and i never have. as far as a.r., it is going to be a contestant. who knows what makes it forever in all of our lives and what doesn't? we'll see. at least a.r., like v.r., has a good start with gaming and that is where personal computers started.
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i don't read analysts and financial pages. my wife actually handles all the money in our house. she does not have that good a credit card limit. kurt: when you talk about a.r. in the future, will this be a battle over the hardware itself? assuming a lot of these companies are wearing glasses. is it a battle over the hardware or whoever controls the operating system on the glasses that will win out? steve: i hope like apple days in the macintosh days, making the hardware and software working together. companies that do that, both the hardware and software. i think the hardware is key because a.r. requires specialized hardware. i'm just waiting for the big one that really hits and everyone has to have it. wait.; kurt: that a steve wozniak, current apple employee. steve, thank you so much for joining us. coming up, elon musk gets closer
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kurt: the ceo of uber call the murder of journalist jamal khashoggi a mistake by the saudi government. dara compared it to uber's accident with a self-driving car. he later backtracked and called khashoggi's death reprehensible. kalanickounder travis has sold 20% of his stock in the ride-hailing company, according to a regulatory filing. the shares were worth $537 million.
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the trade came after a 180 lockup period, restricting insight or early investor sales. shares of uber have fallen 30% since the ipo. kalanick owns a 4.6% stake in the company. now spacex just launched its second batch of satellites on monday. another step towards elon musk's vision for worldwide network of space state internet. the rocket was launched from cape canaveral air force station in florida. spacex will launch is first batch of satellites back in may. joining us to discuss is dana. tell us about today's launch and why this was significant. guest: elon musk has a vision of space internet. to do that, they need to put thousands of satellites in space and they are doing it in batches of 60. the first 60 went up in may, the second batch today. they hope to do for more launches in the next six months
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and they hope to start service in the northern u.s. and parts of canada next year. kurt: what is the space-based networking? is this a new idea? more the idea is faster, reliable internet access from space. you talk to anybody who has internet in the u.s., even in cities, there is lots of glitches. huge swaths of rule america does not have broadband at all. one web, bezos is looking at a space-based internet system to improve service. kurt: do you imagine spacex might one day be a comcast competitor or a partner with an existing player? dana: i would imagine it would be a competitor. spacex is looking at this as a source of revenue for them. they need to create a lot of revenue if they want to create a human colony on mars. kurt: i was going to bask about the business motivations. this will pay for the mars colony it sounds like. dana: yes.
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you want to have an internet on mars also, right? it is two-for-one. revenue for the company as it continues to grow and eventually -- kurt: i know you said they will send these in multiple batches. is there any realistic timeline when something like this might be readily available? dana: spacex has said they hope to begin targeted service in 2020. musk always sets very ambitious deadlines, does not always meet them. it seems like they are working. if they get it up there, they can begin a trial period. kurt: things like these rocket launches are really routine for spacex right now. it sounds dismissive, but that is how it feels. is this becoming the kind of thing where they are able to do this with her eyes closed? dana: kind of. i remember two or three years ago when they were trying to land a rocket on the drone ship for the first time. every time they would try, they would miss it or it would land and a slowed. now they are landing these
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landings and increasingly reducing and recycling the rocket. the rocket that launched today had already flown three previous times. it is becoming very routine. kurt: i know they deliver a lot of satellites for clients to space as well. do you get the sense at all that spacex's decision to do this on their own, that poses a competitive threat to the people they previously done business with? dana: interesting because they are one of the leading launch providers for the world's global satellite providers. now they are launching their own satellites. i think it is different when you look at the big satellites that the military and commercial operators use versus the smaller satellites that spacex is starting to string together. kurt: is there anybody in the industry trying to do something similar to this? i think you mentioned the blue origin earlier on. are there governments attempting to do this same thing? dana: oneweb is trying to do this and bezos is very interested. it is actually an amazon
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project. kurt: similar ties to bezos, but not really. dana: yeah. kurt: thank you very much, dana hull. thank you for joining us. amazon plans to launch a new supermarket chain and it will be the sting from the whole foods brand it bought two years ago. the launch is a sign that amazon once a slice of the grocery market beyond high-end, organic food. the first store will be in woodland hills section of los angeles. that does it for this edition of bloomberg technology. don't forget, bloomberg technology is livestreaming on twitter. check us out. be sure to follow our global breaking news network, tictoc, on twitter. this is bloomberg. ♪ whether you're out here on lte.
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haidi: good morning. i'm haidi stroud-watts. we are under an hour away from the market open in japan and south korea. shery: good evening from new york. i'm shery ahn. welcome to daybreak asia. ♪ shery: top stories this hour -- hong kong braces for more unrest after a chaotic monday that saw one man shot and set on fire. carrie lam says violence is not the answer. boeing takes off thanks to a new
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